Fuse box in hot press

imitation

Hi

What are peoples opinions on a fuse board in a new houses hot press ? The way its working out the wiring will be coming into the house via the hotpress so its the handiest spot. I'm kind of on the fence about it, I can't see any huge issues as a hot press shouldn't be damp and there wouldnt be any risk of it getting wet if it was wall mounted. On the other hand, there might be plenty of nice dry flammable cloth in there should there be fault.

KoolKid

It's not allowed.

Buford T Justice

+1
Against Regs

2011

Not a good idea because:
1) high ambient temperature
2) there are plenty of pipes that could leak!
3) not very accessible
4) clothes ate dried the so there can be moisture in the air
5) as others have said against the regs so no certification possible
6) This would devalue a house!

2011

The way its working out the wiring will be coming into the house via the hotpress

This is not permitted either

paddy147

House alarm panels are not allowed in a hot press either.

imitation

Thanks for the replys guys, clearly a no go.

2011 wrote: »

This is not permitted either

Could you be more specific on whats not allowed ? I'm guessing they will be boxed off in a corner and kept sealed as they run through the room.

KoolKid

paddy147 wrote: »

House alarm panels are not allowed in a hot press either.

To be precise its mains power which is not allowed.
You can have an alarm panel there powered by a power supply outside the hot press.

paddy147

koolkid wrote: »

To be precise its mains power which is not allowed.
You can have an alarm panel there powered by a power supply outside the hot press.

Well all I know is that 3 different alarm companies told me that I couldnt have the alarm panell in the hot press,that it wasnt allowed to be in there (where it was when I bought the house originally).So my house was rewired and the new alarm panel is now in a safer/better location now,than the hot press..

KoolKid

Where did the relocate the panel to & how much did they charge you for that privledge?
Remove the mains & the battery from the panel & relocate in an external tampered power supply. From there send the low voltage AS or DC to the panel on a single alarm cable.
Now all thats in the hot press is 12vdc or 18vac . Perfectly safe.

paddy147

koolkid wrote: »

Where did the relocate the panel to & how much did they charge you for that privledge?
Remove the mains & the battery from the panel & relocate in an external tampered power supply. From there send the low voltage AS or DC to the panel on a single alarm cable.
Now all thats in the hot press is 12vdc or 18vac . Perfectly safe.

Im not going to mention prices,but it was very very reasonable,in fact very very very reasonable indeed.Best price by a mile infact.Very professional,neat and tidy instalation done by Altor.

The new alarm panel,mains power supply and back up battery are all in a place that you wouldnt think of looking,and very much out of the way too.But still perfectly accessable for any future servicing or work required.:)

KoolKid

Altor would have done a good job at the right price alright.:)
Its important to note that the mains in the hot press is the regulation not the alarm panel itself.
Myself & Altor bashed all this out a while back, here.

danjo

Interesting regs - no mains in the hotpress. So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

Solair

danjo wrote: »

Interesting regs - no mains in the hotpress. So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

I think the general idea is that you should avoid unnecessary electrics in the airing cupboard / hotpress.

I would actually be more concerned about mechanical damage to cables in a hotpress potentially causing fire. They really should require trunking as people drag clothes around and it could quite easily rip a cable out terminals.

KoolKid

Always in trunking or fished behind the plaster board.

M cebee

danjo wrote: »

Interesting regs - no mains in the hotpress. So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

where would you be goin puttin them outside:D

2011

Always in trunking or fished behind the plaster board.

Surface trunking would not be permitted as this is still in the hot press. Behind the plasterboard would be fine as it is within the wall of the hot press and therefore not inside the hot press.

So what about an immersion element or a cylinder stat?

No problem. The regulation are quite clear on this. Below is a direct quotation from the latest edition of the "National Rules for Electrical Installations" (4th edition ET101:2008 page 139).

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:

-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

I can not see how this would permit an alarm panel to be installed there under any circumstances as it is "electrical equipment" and it is not an immersion heater or "auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems".

But that is my opinion, others are entitled to their opinion

altor

koolkid wrote: »

You can have an alarm panel there powered by a power supply outside the hot press.

Can you give us something to back up your claim that it can be installed there ?
Did you ever get the letter of the NSAI to say you could upgrade the alarm panel back into the hot press?

altor

2011 wrote: »

Surface trunking would not be permitted as this is still in the hot press. Behind the plasterboard would be fine as it is within the wall of the hot press and therefore not inside the hot press.



No problem. The regulation are quite clear on this. Below is a direct quotation from the latest edition of the "National Rules for Electrical Installations" (4th edition ET101:2008 page 139).

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:

-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

I can not see how this would permit an alarm panel to be installed there under any circumstances as it is "electrical equipment" and it is not an immersion heater or "auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems".

But that is my opinion, others are entitled to their opinion

I agree 2011. As far as I am concerned plus its good to see that other alarm companys agree, it cant go in the hot press.

KoolKid

I have discussed this with inspectors before. If there is no mains power in the panel its not electrical equipment as far as I can see.
With 12 volts dc its more like a battery light etc.
What it gets down to is defining what is electrical equipment?
Is it mains power or any electrical power?

altor wrote: »

Can you give us something to back up your claim that it can be installed there ?

Did you ever get the letter of the NSAI to say you could upgrade the alarm panel back into the hot press?

I have an inspectors report with nonconformities listed.
I am not going over the same issues we have already debated. I really think its down to the questions above on whether low voltage only would be classed as electrical equipment.

altor

koolkid wrote: »

I have discussed this with inspectors before. If there is no mains power in the panel its not electrical equipment as far as I can see.
With 12 volts dc its more like a battery light etc.
What it gets down to is defining what is electrical equipment?
Is it mains power or any electrical power?


I have an inspectors report with nonconformities listed.
I am not going over the same issues we have already debated. I really think its down to the questions above on whether low voltage only would be classed as electrical equipment.

Thats a no then.
I am not debating, just asking if you did get the clarification.

M cebee

230v is low voltage:pac:

i reckon it prob is -'apparatus that utilises electrical energy'

according to the etci definition -could be wrong though


2011 will know!!:D

KoolKid

M cebee wrote: »

230v is low voltage:pac:

I was referring to the control panel being powered by a power supply outside of the hot press.

2011

What it gets down to is defining what is electrical equipment?

I agree.
As it happens the National Rules for Electrical Installations give a definition on page 12 so that there can be no ambiguity:

"Electrical equipment: Any item used for purposes as generation, conversion, transmission, distribution or utilisation of electrical energy, such as machines, transformers, apparatus, measuring instruments, protective devices, equipment for wiring systems and appliances"

I really think its down to the questions above on whether low voltage only would be classed as electrical equipment.

As can be seen above voltage is not mentioned in the definition. The only possible conclusion that can be drawn from this is that the fact that the alarm panel uses 12VDC is irrelevant.

Therefore in my opinion we can conclude with confidence that:
1) This definition applies to alarm panels.
2) An alarm panel is a piece of electrical equipment.
3) Rule 5556.1 applies to alarm panels
4) Alarm panels are not permitted to be installed in hot presses under the 4th edition of ET101:2008

KoolKid

Thanks for that 2011.
I think this need to be discussed further with the NSAI.
Whose word from the NSAI should we take, if an inspector is not good enough?

edit:
Just an aftertought on this. Would an alarm detector be allowed in a hotpress?
Heat detector, smoke detector PiR etc?
What about what about a battery light?
There has to be some cut off point?
If voltage is not an issue would leaving my ipod or a radio on in the hotpress be against regs?

2011

Thanks for that 2011.

You are welcome

Whose word from the NSAI should we take, if an inspector is not good enough?

In my opinion the NSAI like the rest of us have to comply with the National Rules for Electrical Installations. Therefore they do not have the authority to give anyone permission to ignore any part of ET101

If you ring the ETCI I am sure they would clarify this for you. I have had to deal with them before and I have found them very helpful.

Would an alarm detector be allowed in a hotpress?
Heat detector, smoke detector PiR etc?

In my opinion these are not permitted as they fit the above definition.

Why don't you write a letter to the ETCI stating what rules you think should be changed?

This is how rules get changed; people working in various aspects of the electrical industry suggest sensible changes and back them up with hard facts and sound reasoning.

You may then be responsible for having aspects of future editions of ET101 changed. Personally I would find that quite satisfying.

What about what about a battery light?

I think this would be outside the scope of the regulations (unless it was part of a central battery system)

If voltage is not an issue would leaving my ipod or a radio on in the hotpress be against regs?

Ditto

There has to be some cut off point?

There is. The cut off point is what is within and what is outside of the scope of ET101

ET101 only applies to what the scope says it applies to.

Part 1 of ET101 on page 1 details exactly what the scope is. From reading this my interpretation is that items such as iPods can not be described as being part of an electrical installation (which is also defined by the way!). I think that if you were somehow installing an iPod in the hot press you would be technically breaking the regulations.

Koolkid: All of the posts on this are my opinion based on what I have read. I have quoted where appropriate to try to show why I believe this. I may be wrong, as I was on another thread recently as Robbie can confirm! What do you think?

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

Koolkid: All of the posts on this are my opinion based on what I have read. I have quoted where appropriate to try to show why I believe this. I may be wrong, as I was on another thread recently as Robbie can confirm! What do you think?

I dont think anything should be installed in the hotpress myself except the immersion.

Is the immersion switch itself allowed in the hotpress now, or is it to be outside it?

KoolKid

Thanks again 2011. I think there are some interesting points to be argued on this.
I will refer to the contacts provided and the NSAI for some definitive clarifications on this.

Red Alert

I take it a fused spur for a boiler and another one for a power shower pump taken from the Immersion switch all inside the hot press are also against regs :eek:

M cebee

you're allowed spur off for a pump -that type of thing

but not a power shower etc.

don't have the rules handy

Red Alert

Didn't think so, both were done previously by "cowboys" to say the least.

KoolKid

Just to get back to this point. I have been in communication with ETCI.
Here are the highlights of that.

I asked:

I am looking for some clarification on the following:
(4th edition ET101:2008 page 139).

"5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:
-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems."

The existing system is a prewired house with the alarm control panel in the hot press upstairs.
There are 2 proposals:
The first proposal is to replace the main control panel but to house the mains power supply & battery beside the main consumer unit in the hallway.
In this proposal there would be only low voltage circuitry housed in the hot press.
The second would be to locate the new alarm panel & power supply beside the consumer unit in the hallway & locate a Line Expander Module in the hot press to utilise the existing prewiring in place.
Is there any definition as to what voltage (if any is acceptable in the locations referred to in 556.1?
Is a low voltage LED light acceptable for example?
Is the same voltage allowed if it were battery only?

Their response was:

Colm,

The National Rules deal with the electrical (power)installation. In airing cupboards, there is no distinction between low voltage (230V) and Extra -low voltage equipment <50V a.c. The dangwer is the build-up of heat which could cause fire hazard However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

Looks like we were all wrong

fred funk }{

Well done Koolkid, good stuff.

On a side note, are they not contradicting themselves by stating...

5556.1 Electrical equipment in domestic an airing cupboards and similar enclosures shall be confined to the following:
-an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems

The National Rules deal with the electrical (power)installation. In airing cupboards, there is no distinction between low voltage (230V) and Extra -low voltage equipment <50V a.c. The dangwer is the build-up of heat which could cause fire hazard However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

The standard says that electrical equipment shall be confined to -an immersion heater and its associated wiring, but excluding switches,
-auxiliary equipment associated with water-heating systems but then they state that 'he Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment).

Is that not a contradiction? maybe they changed the rules after the standard was written.

KoolKid

About as contradictory as saying a 5amp fused spur is dangerous but the immersion power isn't.

Bruthal

The regs are goin mad, it will be a 6 month job to wire a house the way its going.

2011

Myself and koolkid have had a few PMs on this recently. I am surprised, but the ETCI are the last word on this.

I put my hands up, I was wrong.

Congradulations koolkid!

I thought I had you:D


It does seem strange though

M cebee

i'm not fully convinced by that answer

ETCI or not

Bruthal

Well maybe the ETCI should have an office in the vatican so they can really be infallible.

KoolKid

M cebee wrote: »

i'm not fully convinced by that answer

ETCI or not

So if not The NSAI , EQA or ETCI ,Who will you believe & I will get onto them??

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

Looks like we were all wrong

Of course we are all wrong, we are only the installers:rolleyes:

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

So if not The NSAI , EQA or ETCI ,Who will you believe & I will get onto them??

Well in fairness to others i think it is a bit contradictory just the same. We dont need to be the mighty ETCI to see that do we. Some people will accept whatever they say, others will say they are not convinced.

M cebee

they're saying that alarm ,communication equipment-LV or ELV

is outside the scope of the rules

-even though it seems to meet the definition of electrical equipment

and you can fit it wherever you like presumably

KoolKid

Within the confines of EN50131.Yes.
It is also interesting to note that outside of a new build ,only complete rewires & extensions are governed by this.

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

Within the confines of EN50131.Yes.
It is also interesting to note that outside of a new build ,only complete rewires & extensions are governed by this.

In what way, in existing installations you can put what you like in a hot press?

KoolKid

Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

How would you interpet that statement.?

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

How would you interpet that statement.?

Well i dont know, thats why im asking, sorry if i seem stupid:)

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

The National Rules deal with the electrical (power)installation. In airing cupboards, there is no distinction between low voltage (230V) and Extra -low voltage equipment <50V a.c. The dangwer is the build-up of heat which could cause fire hazard However, the Rules do not apply to other services (e.g. alarm. communications equipment. Furthermore the Rules apply only to new work (including complete rewiring, and new extensions.

Looks like we were all wrong

Ok in airing cupboards there is no distinction between low and extra low voltage, but the rules do not apply to alarms or communications equipment.
And the rules only apply to complete rewires etc. So since i asked a stupid question koolkid, i will ask an even more stupid one as i obviously cant interpret like others can, Here goes,,,

If there is no distinction between 230v and <50v then you can put an alarm panel with a 230v supply in the hotpress whether its a new build or not depending how you interpret that,
So if it does not apply in partial rewires then how can it be understood when its not clear and is contradictory to start with.

KoolKid

The question I initally asked was to moving to mains PSU out of the hot press.
The reply I got seems to imply this is not required because:
1) The rules done apply to Alarms
and
2) The rules don't apply as it is not a new build,a full rewire or an extension.
Standards are full of contridictions. I've been trough them with IS199 & now with EN50131 . Nothing new in that .

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

The question I initally asked was to moving to mains PSU out of the hot press.
The reply I got seems to imply this is not required because:
1) The rules done apply to Alarms
and
2) The rules don't apply as it is not a new build,a full rewire or an extension.
Standards are full of contridictions. I've been trough them with IS199 & now with EN50131 . Nothing new in that .

Yes it seems from the reply you got that once its an alarm panel you could have the 230v supply inside it. Im surprised at that one myself. I like the others thought nothing except water heating and control devices were allowed in the hot press.

There is a lot in regulations that probably does not apply if its not a new build or full rewire, but even this is not clear where the line is drawn in some cases.

KoolKid

As 2011 advised me, the best thing to do is email them the proposal & they will outline what is allowed & what is not.

Bruthal

koolkid wrote: »

As 2011 advised me, the best thing to do is email them the proposal & they will outline what is allowed & what is not.

Yes it seems like a good advise idea alright. As he, i and most on here would say, we learn new stuff about all this regularly.