Scrap all rent allowance and tax breaks on property

Austerity

On thing the Irish government should do is to scrap all rent allowance and tax breaks on property. The reason for this is two-fold. Ireland is running a huge budget deficit and cannot afford rent allowance and tax breaks on property. Second rent allowance sets an artificial floor on how low rents can go. Why should landlords benefit from government subsidies?

Jesus Wept

Are you trolling or serious (considering your first post/thread in AH and now this).
Scraping rent allowance would lead to massive increase in homelessness and civil unrest.

old_aussie

Scrap rent allowance and decrease tax breaks on property.

Ireland needs to do something by themselves to recover, otherwise the IMF come in and take over.

That doesn't look good as it shows the elected gov cannot do it, that is, manage the financial affairs of the country.

A long slow road to recovery for Ireland.

See latest news about Poland and Romania

syklops

old_aussie wrote: »

See latest news about Poland and Romania

Why what happened?

Austerity

The-Rigger wrote: »

Are you trolling or serious (considering your first post/thread in AH and now this).
Scraping rent allowance would lead to massive increase in homelessness and civil unrest.

I advocate serious austerity to get the house in order. I would also have let the to big to fail, fail.

Private debt should never ever be allowed to become a liability for the taxpayer.

ei.sdraob

The-Rigger wrote: »

Are you trolling or serious (considering your first post/thread in AH and now this).
Scraping rent allowance would lead to massive increase in homelessness and civil unrest.

Dude the way the country is going things will lead to a default, homelessness and civil unrest anyways, we are already paying extortionate interest rates on debt for which YOU, me, everyone will be paying one way or another


all of these subsidies and tax breaks are distorting the market, leading for more expensive prices for all


i would go further than OP and also scrap NAMA, hence sending property values crashing even more ensuing that buying/renting is alot more affordable! and before you accuse me of self-interest I am a houseowner and you think i shouldn't be saying what i did above, but i understand very well having rented until recently how messed up the property/rental market is!

Austerity wrote: »

Private debt should never ever be allowed to become a liability for the taxpayer.

true! the country was terrorised into taking over debts of others and now the country is screwed not some private banks

syklops

Austerity wrote: »

I advocate serious austerity to get the house in order. I would also have let the to big to fail, fail.

Private debt should never ever be allowed to become a liability for the taxpayer.

You didnt answer my question, what happened in Poland??

Austerity

syklops wrote: »

You didnt answer my question, what happened in Poland??

I never said anything about Poland.

old_aussie

syklops wrote: »

Why what happened?

http://www.euronews.net/2010/09/23/romanians-protest-against-government-austerity/

Same in Poland

Austerity

Austerity wrote: »

Second rent allowance sets an artificial floor on how low rents can go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWlz1IKWfw4

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


a floor in the market is what NAMA is all about...............!

Nijmegen

Why are you linking tax breaks and rent allowance? Rent allowance is keeping people from becoming homeless.

Austerity

Nijmegen wrote: »

Why are you linking tax breaks and rent allowance? Rent allowance is keeping people from becoming homeless.

Rent allowance sets an artificial floor on how low rents can go. If we scrap the rent allowance you will see rents go down as there are alot of empty houses in the country.

Nijmegen

Austerity wrote: »

Rent allowance sets an artificial floor on how low rents can go. If we scrap the rent allowance you will see rents go down as there are alot of empty houses in the country.

The idea is a good one (trying to find a way to lower rents and ensure rent allowance does not set a floor.)

But what do you do with all the people who would become homeless because they can't afford rent, heat and food on €196 a week?

Austerity

Nijmegen wrote: »

The idea is a good one (trying to find a way to lower rents and ensure rent allowance does not set a floor.)

But what do you do with all the people who would become homeless because they can't afford rent, heat and food on €196 a week?

Do you suggest the goverment should continue borrow money to pay these benefits? Borrowing money to give people benefits is insane.

Nijmegen

Austerity wrote: »

Do you suggest the goverment should continue borrow money to pay these benefits? Borrowing money to give people benefits is insane.

The only things the government do that aren't benefits of some sort are policing, defence, infrastructure and err, regulation.

Are you suggesting that we stop paying for education, pensions, healthcare, etc etc etc? We become a US style state?

Whilst I agree that welfare can be done an awful lot better, you need to clarify here if you are just against the welfare state in general.

The idea of removing a benefit that protects people from becoming homeless (something that, in the long run, will cost the state a lot more in other problems) is silly, black and white stuff. Why don't we slide the scale a bit more to the middle and look for ways to give it in a smarter fashion, to help reduce rents?

Austerity

Nijmegen wrote: »

The only things the government do that aren't benefits of some sort are policing, defence, infrastructure and err, regulation.

Are you suggesting that we stop paying for education, pensions, healthcare, etc etc etc? We become a US style state?

Whilst I agree that welfare can be done an awful lot better, you need to clarify here if you are just against the welfare state in general.

The idea of removing a benefit that protects people from becoming homeless (something that, in the long run, will cost the state a lot more in other problems) is silly, black and white stuff. Why don't we slide the scale a bit more to the middle and look for ways to give it in a smarter fashion, to help reduce rents?

What I think of the welfare state does not matter, the fact is that Ireland can't afford its current level of spending. Can we both agree on this?

Count Dooku

The-Rigger wrote: »

Are you trolling or serious (considering your first post/thread in AH and now this).
Scraping rent allowance would lead to massive increase in homelessness and civil unrest.

We have plenty empty NAMA properties to house people, who will lose their accommodation
Civil unrest from greedy landlords sounds scary, but probably country will survive

ei.sdraob

Austerity wrote: »

What I think of the welfare state does not matter, the fact is that Ireland can't afford its current level of spending. Can we both agree on this?

He is not going to agree on this since people dont like admitting that the reckless political policies will lead to bigger issues down the road

Nijmegen

Let me be clear, as I have been consistently saying around here for quite some time:

I do believe in the safety nets of the welfare state. I do not believe that ours is a particularly well run welfare state, and that with the proper application of a means tested tax and benefits system we could both save money (by removing blanket benefits not all people need) and increase fairness (let's give the 24 year old living at home with both parents working less dole than the 20 year old who has been working 3 years and out of the family home for 2... Rather than saying, "Oh, you're 22, 300 days old, you need €46 less than you will in 65 days!")

I agree with cuts. But blanket removing rent allowance... Well, you say scrap it but propose nothing to say how people are to live afterwards. A homeless person will cost the state more to look after in the long run than a person with a roof over their head, who gets educated and put into productive work.

gurramok

I wouldn't agree to scrap it, slash it in half yes. No reason for a bog standard 1bed in Dublin to be rented on RS for 900quid a month.

The govt control 50% of the private rental market. A combination of moving long term renters into social housing in areas with amenities and slashing the RS by half is the best solution in my view.

Nijmegen

Nijmegen wrote: »

I do believe in the safety nets of the welfare state.

the problem is it has become a landlords dole

liammur

Count Dooku wrote: »

We have plenty empty NAMA properties to house people, who will lose their accommodation
Civil unrest from greedy landlords sounds scary, but probably country will survive

Take regeneration in Limerick, all they need do is put people in these empty houses instead of squandering billions building new ones.

Rent allowance certainly needs to be reduced, but scrapping it is far too drastic.

mikemac

You can't abolish it overnight.
It can be reduced in increments over time

Of course many councils have signed long term contracts with landlords on the RAS scheme. Those contracts can't be broken either.
And if they were signed two years ago it's pretty certain the council is paying well above current market rate

gurramok wrote: »

I wouldn't agree to scrap it, slash it in half yes. No reason for a bog standard 1bed in Dublin to be rented on RS for 900quid a month.

Max rate is the rate for a couple which is €770

And you'll get a perfectly fine one bed in Dublin for that.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/rent_supplement

Cavehill Red

Problem with this plan is the NAMA ghost estates are not located where people want and need to live. Privately owned dwellings are.
Scrap rent allowance and Dublin (and Galway, Cork centres too) become the local equivalent of Manhattan, where the poor cannot afford to live.
If I have a house to rent out in Rathmines or Clontarf (I don't incidentally) I'll find someone who wants to live in it, whether there is rent allowance or none in the world.
All this proposal would achieve is the slow eviction of poor people from the city.

Spudmonkey

liammur wrote: »

Take regeneration in Limerick, all they need do is put people in these empty houses instead of squandering billions building new ones.

Rent allowance certainly needs to be reduced, but scrapping it is far too drastic.

I frankly have a serious problem with someone struggling to pay their mortgage and someone else waltzing into a free house beside them.

liammur

Spudmonkey wrote: »

I frankly have a serious problem with someone struggling to pay their mortgage and someone else waltzing into a free house beside them.

If the truth be told, I'd say everyone else does too.

Rent allowance can't be scrapped, but it must be reduced significantly.

gurramok

feelingstressed wrote: »

Max rate is the rate for a couple which is €770

And you'll get a perfectly fine one bed in Dublin for that.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/social-welfare/social-welfare-payments/supplementary-welfare-schemes/rent_supplement

I did not specify who gets it and they can rent any type of place within the limits, that could be a 1bed, 2bed or 3 bed semi. If they have kids, they get more, 930 from DCC.

A 'single mother' aged 19 with 1 kid rents a 2bed for 900 quid across from me in the apt complex while the rest of us go to work. Where is the justice in that?

liammur

gurramok wrote: »

I did not specify who gets it and they can rent any type of place within the limits, that could be a 1bed, 2bed or 3 bed semi. If they have kids, they get more, 930 from DCC.

A 'single mother' aged 19 with 1 kid rents a 2bed for 900 quid across from me in the apt complex while the rest of us go to work. Where is the justice in that?

And count yourself lucky, people in Limerick (neighbouring parts of clare & Tipp) have a serious problem. Corporation and council are moving undesirables that have thrashed their own estates by their thousands out into a house near you. How fair is that? :mad:

No wonder the country is the way it is.

mikemac

You specified a one bed for 900

Tbh, if there are children it should be a two bed or more. Not ideal to have the entire family in one room so I just picked the couple rate

Anyway, I'm going off-topic

@liamur, Tipperary town and Newport are just two examples for your post.
Newport used to be a village, not anymore

Nijmegen

Putting people into NAMA housing etc creates other problems.

The state, as landlord, would have obligations to these people.

The entire system would need to be managed by the state - Eg. More public servants or a tasty contract to some management companies.

The state would become liable for any legal actions and other mess arising from it all.

The more people become dependant on the state, the more difficult it is to remove that benefit and easier it is to extend and deepen it, say, six months before a general election.

Spudmonkey

feelingstressed wrote: »

You specified a one bed for 900

Tbh, if there are children it should be a two bed or more. Not ideal to have the entire family in one room so I just picked the couple rate

And yet nothing about the fact that she is getting it for nothing? I'll reiterate your point liammur, it's no wonder the country is the way it is.

RDM_83 again

Just like to point out that in a move typical of this goverment they have managed to reduce the rent allowance bill without cutting it, the assesments/inspections are no longer carried out by the community welfare officer (or they're body) but instead the council. In Galway city at present this now takes 3 months-this payment is not back dated, therefore the people that may be moving between fulltime work occasionally suffer but the long term unemployed don't.
Also I would like to point out that the rent allowance rates in Galway City are the same as or lower than Carlow, Kilkenny,Tipperary, Wexford to name some places with far lower rents (and also as a person on Back to Education as many are it is not feasible to live in county galway).
I do feel that it should be reformed but people need to be aware of the facts, I also feel that Ireland has a generous social welfare system and good opportunities for (re-)education available, however any comparisons to the UK should be avoided or at least balanced by a look at the wider EU rather than just our closest neighbour

gurramok

feelingstressed wrote: »

You specified a one bed for 900

Tbh, if there are children it should be a two bed or more. Not ideal to have the entire family in one room so I just picked the couple rate

Anyway, I'm going off-topic

@liamur, Tipperary town and Newport are just two examples for your post.
Newport used to be a village, not anymore

The rates don't specify room types, its based on how many humans there are. Some people are in 1beds, others in 2beds for 900 anywhere in Dublin.

And, not all are undesirable some are decent. I resent the way the rental system is against workers.

rev2.0

gurramok wrote: »

A 'single mother' aged 19 with 1 kid rents a 2bed for 900 quid across from me in the apt complex while the rest of us go to work. Where is the justice in that?

How do you know what her situation is? Did she tell you she receives rent allowance?

liammur

feelingstressed wrote: »

@liamur, Tipperary town and Newport are just two examples for your post.
Newport used to be a village, not anymore

I just set up a poll over in the Limerick section, re regeneration, will be interesting to see the results of it.

Spudmonkey

liammur wrote: »

I just set up a poll over in the Limerick section, re regeneration, will be interesting to see the results of it.

I'm there!!

mikemac

gurramok wrote: »

The rates don't specify room types, its based on how many humans there are.

You are correct sir

I realy should have read the DCC information more closely

liammur

Spudmonkey wrote: »

I'm there!!

Looks like it will be a 50-50 situation!

Idbatterim

I agree with reducing it big time, not totally getting rid of it. The rents in my areas, D.14,16 & 18 are still ridiculous.

Count Dooku

Nijmegen wrote: »

Putting people into NAMA housing etc creates other problems.

The state, as landlord, would have obligations to these people.

The entire system would need to be managed by the state - Eg. More public servants or a tasty contract to some management companies.

The state would become liable for any legal actions and other mess arising from it all.

Outsource those tasks to private companies

Spudmonkey

Idbatterim wrote: »

I agree with reducing it big time, not totally getting rid of it. The rents in my areas, D.14,16 & 18 are still ridiculous.

If people can't afford to meet them, they should consider moving somewhere else. Not be relying on subsidies!

Saadyst

When I first moved over here and heard about this, I thought it was ridiculous - the government is paying people to pay their landlords more money for rent? Landlords that paid too much for property to begin with because the developer paid the landowner too much, in which many cases was the council / govt to begin with?

It makes no sense. It would be difficult to remove the subsidy completely, but if it was to be rid of, then landlords would be forced to drop rents - they'd have no choice, if they'd wanted tenants. A gradual climb down would be appropriate to give everyone time to adjust and negotiate newer contracts.

Nijmegen

Count Dooku wrote: »

Outsource those tasks to private companies

That solves issue 1 re: hiring more civil servants, but no other issues.

snubbleste

Saadyst wrote: »

It makes no sense. It would be difficult to remove the subsidy completely, but if it was to be rid of, then landlords would be forced to drop rents - they'd have no choice, if they'd wanted tenants. A gradual climb down would be appropriate to give everyone time to adjust and negotiate newer contracts.

That is exactly what has been happening in the last 18 months.
Maximum rent supplement levels have been cut twice and the tenant has had to increase their contribution from €13pw to €24pw.
The current maximum levels are set to last till end of year and another cut is expected then

gurramok

rev2.0 wrote: »

How do you know what her situation is? Did she tell you she receives rent allowance?

Yes, i know the girl from other tenants who in turn know her as a friend. And its perfectly legal what she does. It happens all over the country.

snubbleste wrote: »

That is exactly what has been happening in the last 18 months.
Maximum rent supplement levels have been cut twice and the tenant has had to increase their contribution from €13pw to €24pw.
The current maximum levels are set to last till end of year and another cut is expected then

They hardly reduced the limit in the cities, only outside them did they reduce it a bit.

rightwingdub

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, i know the girl from other tenants who in turn know her as a friend. And its perfectly legal what she does. It happens all over the country.



They hardly reduced the limit in the cities, only outside them did they reduce it a bit.

In dublin a couple with three kids can get monthly rent allowance of €1100 per month, that should be slashed to about €600, a single person in shared accomodation can get €390 per month that should be cut to about €240 per month, a couple with no kids get €800 per month that should be cut to about €450 per month, if such cuts were implemented then rents would fall through the roof. No wonder why rents are still so bleeding high in Dublin.:mad:

To the op abolishing rent allowance is quite an extreme idea but I would favour cuts of at least 40% in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway.

flutered

it should be reduced totaly over four years, with the proviso that if rent does not come down, then the tax man takes a similar take.

gurramok

rightwingdub wrote: »

In dublin a couple with three kids can get monthly rent allowance of €1100 per month, that should be slashed to about €600, a single person in shared accomodation can get €390 per month that should be cut to about €240 per month, a couple with no kids get €800 per month that should be cut to about €450 per month, if such cuts were implemented then rents would fall through the roof. No wonder why rents are still so bleeding high in Dublin.:mad:

To the op abolishing rent allowance is quite an extreme idea but I would favour cuts of at least 40% in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway.

And if the mother in my case decided not to have that child, she would be entitled to less that 390 in shared accommodation or 529 as a single claimant(she'd get nothing here in Dublin for that)

Basically, just have a kid or two or more until they are 22 and your sorted for a place to live in for many years.

rightwingdub

gurramok wrote: »

And if the mother in my case decided not to have that child, she would be entitled to less that 390 in shared accommodation or 529 as a single claimant(she'd get nothing here in Dublin for that)

Basically, just have a kid or two or more until they are 22 and your sorted for a place to live in for many years.

How very true, then stop giving houses to single parents under 25 who refuse to work, thats a radical idea.

Yep, all the permanent welfare junkie lumpen proletariat slappers need to do is spread their legs, nine months later out comes a baby and a heavily subsidized house, its ridicoulous:mad:

Idbatterim

Id say cut it 20% atleast, anyone getting rent allowance, they can pay the balance out of their dole money, the dole is meant to literally provide for the basics, the basics being, food, drink (not alcohohol) and utilities, these are what I would deem the essentials. The first ones I want targetted are the long term spongers.

rents are too high its costing us jobs we should cut it out completely

you can have jobs or you can have costly accommodation but not both when your taxes are paying half the rent