Punishment - No P.E.

jpb1974

Hi,

I was wondering could anyone help or perhaps just offer an opinion:

In short: Is it acceptable for a teacher to 'punish' a child by not allowing them participate in P.E.?

Thanks

byhookorbycrook

Generally, no, it is not acceptable to miss any curriculum area. The exception would be if the child was behaving in an unsafe manner at P.E., either a danger to him/herself or others.

jpb1974

Thanks for the advice, pretty much the same as what I was thinking myself.

D4RK ONION

This is such an old punishment and it really doesn't gel any more. You wouldn't punish a child by removing them from the maths or science class, so why would you do the same in PE? It is a curricular subject after all.

jpb1974

Aye... I agree.

The young lad (7 years old) wasn't allowed to participate in P.E. yesterday because he hadn't completed part of his homework properly (this was due to total confusion as to what had to be done, we oversee his homework every night and make sure it is done to a high standard, but we were all a bit confused as to what was actually required for the item in question).

As far as I can see the teacher isn't taking P.E. seriously if she's using it as a punishment mechanism.

Ironically enough the school sent home a sponsorship card earlier in the week to raise funds for sports equipment...

Thanks for the opinions, appreciate it.

RibenaHead

It's ridiculous that teachers think they can just exclude children from one subject as a punishment! So archaic!

up for anything

When it became obvious to the school that I was helping my daughter avoid swimming when she was in 6th class, I got a phone call from the principle tearing strips off me and reminding me that swimming was as much part of the curriculum as maths and not to do it again.

D4RK ONION

And too right imo! Physical Education is just that. An important part of every child's education.

dambarude

up for anything wrote: »

When it became obvious to the school that I was helping my daughter avoid swimming when she was in 6th class, I got a phone call from the principle tearing strips off me and reminding me that swimming was as much part of the curriculum as maths and not to do it again.

Swimming is probably one of the most important things a child will learn in PE, your principal was right.

That said I realise that some children are uncomfortable with everything that going swimming involves, I hated swimming myself, but it's one of the most worthwhile activities you do in primary school.

up for anything

dambarude wrote: »

Swimming is probably one of the most important things a child will learn in PE, your principal was right.

That said I realise that some children are uncomfortable with everything that going swimming involves, I hated swimming myself, but it's one of the most worthwhile activities you do in primary school.

I'm with you on that but I had to balance the nasty teasing she was getting before, after and during swimming against the benefit of a half hour swimming lesson.

dambarude

up for anything wrote: »

I'm with you on that but I had to balance the nasty teasing she was getting before, after and during swimming against the benefit of a half hour swimming lesson.

That has to be tough. Young kids can be pretty cruel.

It was the actual swimming that I didn't like, I was pretty useless at it. But the thing is, even though I haven't swam much since I was in primary school, at least I know how to now. In the long run it's probably worth it, especially *touch wood* in situations where it's important.

The curriculum has a lot on water safety, not just at the swimming pool, but at the seaside/rivers etc. as well. I don't really know how often teachers/swimming instructors actually teach this aspect of it though. A fair bit of the Aquatics strand of the PE curriculum could be taught in the classroom (obviously not the actual swimming though).

GoldenEarring

RibenaHead wrote: »

It's ridiculous that teachers think they can just exclude children from one subject as a punishment! So archaic!

All very well. But the options open to teachers to punish children are now very limited. Have you any alternatives?
People now have no idea of just how demanding and badly-behaved children can be. If you've a class of 30 plus, there has to be some sanction for misdemeanors. Children no longer sit like robots and soak up the knowledge the teacher imparts.
Children are very opinionated these days and are not used to waiting their turn. They also frequently think they are always in the right. The self-esteem level has swung from too low to too high.
I can understand why teachers might opt to cut a few mins from a child's Art or PE lesson....these are seen as treats and obviously excluding them from Irish or Maths would not be seen as a punishment.
I have never stopped a child from an entire lesson but I would make them start last or wait a few mins after the others.
I would be sympathetic to teachers who would need to do more.
Have you never witnessed the appalling behaviour of some children in shops and restaurants, while the doting parents gaze admiringly at the little horrors? It's truly extraordinary. Most parents want you to discipline EVERYONE ELSE'S children, but never their own (as their own are perfect, obviously)!!!!

RibenaHead

@GoldEarring... I'd suggest, rather than excluding them from P.E. - maybe if they are acting out during a P.E. lesson, have them two a few laps or something where they're still active but not included in the 'fun' bit just for a while...

There are plenty of ways of punishing children without resorting to cutting out certain curricular times - extra homework is one (regardless of the subject, children never want MORE work to do!).

On the other hand, positive reinforcement is a much better alternative - where children get rewarded for good behaviour and are then given an incentive to behave appropriately. However, I understand that this can be a bit of an idealistic concept and doesn't necessarily work without the odd bit of punishment thrown in.

Also, I'm just a student teacher so I'm in no way experienced enough to say what will/won't work in a classroom.

ted1

not at all acceptable. This is way to old school of an punishment. pe is a very important part of development it teachs team play. And rule playing it also builds confidence in kids who aren't good at standard subjects. I'd in through the teacher and principal for a short cut)

GoldenEarring

RibenaHead wrote: »

@GoldEarring... I'd suggest, rather than excluding them from P.E. - maybe if they are acting out during a P.E. lesson, have them two a few laps or something where they're still active but not included in the 'fun' bit just for a while...

There are plenty of ways of punishing children without resorting to cutting out certain curricular times - extra homework is one (regardless of the subject, children never want MORE work to do!).

On the other hand, positive reinforcement is a much better alternative - where children get rewarded for good behaviour and are then given an incentive to behave appropriately. However, I understand that this can be a bit of an idealistic concept and doesn't necessarily work without the odd bit of punishment thrown in.

Also, I'm just a student teacher so I'm in no way experienced enough to say what will/won't work in a classroom.

It has got to the stage now that some children will not even do the homework they get on a regular basis let alone do extra as a punishment. There's not a lot you can do if a child will not do homework and parent couldn't care less. In some of my friends' schools the parents can't even get the kids to attend.
Parents find their own two or three children a challenge to manage and yet they think a teacher should be able to manage thirty and make them do things for five hours that they do not want to do, ie work.
There are no sanctions now and many children have no fear of authority and will answer "I don't care" if threatened with being sent to principal or reported to parents.
A Polish child in our school was asked what he thought about school in Ireland and he said he was amazed at how cheeky the children were to the teachers.
There are practically no sanctions and some children feel they can do what they like and get away with it. They are right. Also when they tell their parents an exaggerated description of an incident in school the parents take their word over the teacher's every time.
I do not know where all of this will lead but it is not good for education and is very hard on compliant, cooperative and hardworking pupils who have to endure disruptive and distracting behaviour.

dambarude

GoldenEarring wrote: »

There are no sanctions now and many children have no fear of authority and will answer "I don't care" if threatened with being sent to principal or reported to parents.

In your experience does the threat of 'No PE/Art' actually work with children like this?

E.T.

RibenaHead wrote: »

@GoldEarring... I'd suggest, rather than excluding them from P.E. - maybe if they are acting out during a P.E. lesson, have them two a few laps or something where they're still active but not included in the 'fun' bit just for a while...

There are plenty of ways of punishing children without resorting to cutting out certain curricular times - extra homework is one (regardless of the subject, children never want MORE work to do!).

On the other hand, positive reinforcement is a much better alternative - where children get rewarded for good behaviour and are then given an incentive to behave appropriately. However, I understand that this can be a bit of an idealistic concept and doesn't necessarily work without the odd bit of punishment thrown in.

Also, I'm just a student teacher so I'm in no way experienced enough to say what will/won't work in a classroom.

That all sounds good in theory, but just doesn't work in reality.
P.E. - The only time I ever stop children doing P.E. is if they're acting up to the extent where they're putting themselves and others in danger during the P.E. class. They get a time-out and have to stay beside me. Having them run a few laps just isn't practical - if they are really misbehaving, you can't keep an eye on them plus teach your 30+ other kids at the same time.

Extra homework - a lot of the time, the kids who do act up all the time are the ones who don't do the basic homework as it is, and most of the time you're not going to get any support from their parents either. It's also linking the idea of homework with punishment.

Positive reinforcement - I've been teaching almost 10 years and I've seen both positive and negative consequences of this method. It can work, but finding a method that suits a child personally takes a huge amount of time, which is taking from teaching time every day, to the detriment of the other children. What I don't like about it is it leaves some kids with the impression that they have to get a reward for behaving themselves. This doesn't happen in the real world! And when you stop the (excess) positive reinforcement, the good behaviour often stops too.

I do use positive verbal reinforcement a lot with children who have trouble behaving, but I rarely use rewards.

RibenaHead

E.T. wrote: »

That all sounds good in theory, but just doesn't work in reality.

I see what you mean about the problems with what I said. Like I said though, I'm just a student teacher and don't have as much experience as you so I'm really just thinking hypothetically!

GoldenEarring

I have never done that. I've only made them have the last turn/go, wait 5 mins before starting, be the last to choose the paints, paper etc. I've made them wait two mins on the clock before starting lunch.
It does seem to focus the mind and they generally are more cooperative. It's good for the rest of the class to see that there are consequences for misbehaviour. I'd make a big play out of rewarding those who try hard and they get to go first. I'd talk a lot about how we have to be fair to the people who work hard and how much of everybody's time is wasted by messers.
For seriously difficult pupils it is very different especially when the parents do not support the teacher. Children today have very little conscience about cheating and lying...they don't fear eternal damnation as we did, and know their parents will take them at their word. They can tell very one-sided versions of events.
Other teachers have excluded trouble-makers from school tours. That seems to have worked. But you cannot threaten something that you are not prepared to carry out and of course teachers have to comply with whatever is written in the school's code of behaviour policy. Or else they could end up in court.
That's the way the world is now. All the rules are for the teachers!!

daltonm

GoldenEarring wrote: »

I have never done that. I've only made them have the last turn/go, wait 5 mins before starting, be the last to choose the paints, paper etc. I've made them wait two mins on the clock before starting lunch.
It does seem to focus the mind and they generally are more cooperative. It's good for the rest of the class to see that there are consequences for misbehaviour. I'd make a big play out of rewarding those who try hard and they get to go first. I'd talk a lot about how we have to be fair to the people who work hard and how much of everybody's time is wasted by messers.
For seriously difficult pupils it is very different especially when the parents do not support the teacher. Children today have very little conscience about cheating and lying...they don't fear eternal damnation as we did, and know their parents will take them at their word. They can tell very one-sided versions of events.
Other teachers have excluded trouble-makers from school tours. That seems to have worked. But you cannot threaten something that you are not prepared to carry out and of course teachers have to comply with whatever is written in the school's code of behaviour policy. Or else they could end up in court.
That's the way the world is now. All the rules are for the teachers!!

That wouldn't be the case for the OP as her child was excluded from participating in a lesson.

dambarude

GoldenEarring wrote: »

I have never done that. I've only made them have the last turn/go, wait 5 mins before starting, be the last to choose the paints, paper etc. I've made them wait two mins on the clock before starting lunch.

Basically 'loss of privileges' so?

What we were told in first year does make some sense so!

daltonm

dambarude wrote: »

Basically 'loss of privileges' so?

What we were told in first year does make some sense so!

Education is a right - not a privilege.

D4RK ONION

daltonm wrote: »

Education is a right - not a privilege.

You misunderstood. They're not losing their "privilege/right" to education. They're losing their privilege to go out on time, to pick which colour's they'd like to use early, to be the first person to PE hall.

dambarude

D4RK ONION wrote: »

You misunderstood. They're not losing their "privilege/right" to education. They're losing their privilege to go out on time, to pick which colour's they'd like to use early, to be the first person to PE hall.

Exactly.

daltonm

D4RK ONION wrote: »

You misunderstood. They're not losing their "privilege/right" to education. They're losing their privilege to go out on time, to pick which colour's they'd like to use early, to be the first person to PE hall.

If teachers have issues with children then there are guidelines there to address them.

Singling out children for different treatment sends the message to other kids that if you misbehave I will humiliate you and belittle you. This does nothing but build bad feelings between a pupil to a teacher and is wrong - in my opinion of course.

RibenaHead

daltonm wrote: »

If teachers have issues with children then there are guidelines there to address them.

Singling out children for different treatment sends the message to other kids that if you misbehave I will humiliate you and belittle you. This does nothing but build bad feelings between a pupil to a teacher and is wrong - in my opinion of course.

How exactly do you suggest that teachers deal with misbehaviour without singling out those who misbehave?

daltonm

RibenaHead wrote: »

How exactly do you suggest that teachers deal with misbehaviour without singling out those who misbehave?

I suggest that teachers follow the guidelines. A warning for bad behaviour for example, a second one and then a trip to the office - let the principal deal with it from there, away from a class full of children - singling out children and treating them in a clearly demeaning way is a form of bullying and can be devastating for a child.

RibenaHead

daltonm wrote: »

I suggest that teachers follow the guidelines. A warning for bad behaviour for example, a second one and then a trip to the office - let the principal deal with it from there, away from a class full of children - singling out children and treating them in a clearly demeaning way is a form of bullying and can be devastating for a child.

But isn't the act of giving a verbal warning or sending the child to the office also singling them out?

daltonm

RibenaHead wrote: »

But isn't the act of giving a verbal warning or sending the child to the office also singling them out?

single out - select from a group.

Emotional bullying - isolating or excluding

a person from group activities.


Major difference.

RibenaHead

daltonm wrote: »

single out - select from a group.

Emotional bullying - isolating or excluding

a person from group activities.


Major difference.

But sending one child to the principal's office IS isolating/ excluding them from the group. That, by your definition, is emotional bullying

daltonm

RibenaHead wrote: »

But sending one child to the principal's office IS singling them out (isolating/ excluding them from the group).

So is asking them to answer a question. You don't seem to get the point and I really can't make it any clearer for you I'm afraid.