"Spanish" tomatoes turn out to be Dutch

SirPeter

I like tomatoes. But I don't like Dutch tomatoes because they are, I suspect, grown in such a way as to have virtually no flavour.

So when I am shopping I tend to buy Spanish tomatoes or Irish tomatoes if the sun has been shining in Ireland to make them sweet and delicious.

Many times this summer I have gone to a local supermarket whose label claims the loose tomatoes on display are Spanish. but when I pull the box they are in up to see where they come from, it almost always says "Product of Holland".

I have mentioned it twice to the supermarket but today, again, I pulled up the box and it said "Product of Holland" despite the supermarket claimint the tomatoes are "Spankish" and charging for the higher quality "Spanish" tomatoes.

I am now irritated by this deception, and wonder how many others buy tomatoes because the supermarket claims they are Spanish, when they are not.

What do I do?

Wile E. Coyote

http://tinyurl.com/23vk24w

jor el

Product of Holland doesn't mean they are grown in Holland, they could well be Spanish tomatoes. All it means is that they are packaged in Holland. Think "Donegal Catch". Nothing Irish about it, but it's still "produced" here.

User Friendly

Maybe the box....the cardbord box is a product of holland?:D

gerrycollins

sometimes the same box is used for presentation until it gets dirty so there is a chance the same box has been there for a reasonable time.

the dept of Agriculture guidelines are very specific on the display criteria and labeling for fruit and veg,however its the price label that matters not the box and they carry out quiet regular inspections and welcome complaints where they will investigate. i would say that shops i have worked in dunnes and supervalu got audited at least 4 times a year.

SirPeter

jor el wrote: »

Product of Holland doesn't mean they are grown in Holland, they could well be Spanish tomatoes. All it means is that they are packaged in Holland. Think "Donegal Catch". Nothing Irish about it, but it's still "produced" here.

It seems unlikely they would be first packaged in Spain, then shipped to Holland, repackaged, and then sent to Ireland. All that would do is make them even more expensive than shipping Spanish tomatoes direct to Ireland.

But suppose that, for some reason, that was the case, then the shop should be selling them as "Holland" tomatoes if thats what you say they have now become.

Spanish tomatoes are, generally, of better quality and more expensive than Holland tomatoes, so why the Spanish growers would want to send their tomatoes via Holland, adding more cost than shipping direct to Ireland, and have them repackaged as cheaper product of inferior quality, seems questionable.

jor el

SirPeter wrote: »

It seems unlikely they would be first packaged in Spain, then shipped to Holland, repackaged, and then sent to Ireland. All that would do is make them even more expensive than shipping Spanish tomatoes direct to Ireland.

I never said they would be packaged in Spain, just Holland.

It could also be a mistake, or a lie.

calex71

I for one could blind taste the difference between spanish and dutch as I'm sure many others could.

Tomatoes have never tasted good to me since my stint working in Bulgaria , those were tomatoes , not the bitter old bags of water we get on sale here :mad:

OP you may as well be pissing in the wind talking to someone in the store in my experience, if it was Dunnes an email / call to head office has again in my experience been the most effective approach, wouldn't waste any effort with tesco if it was them.

MagicMarker

Maybe the supermarket just use generic boxes to store the tomatoes?

Maybe it's not such a big deal and we all move on with our lives?

Drake66

MagicMarker wrote: »

Maybe the supermarket just use generic boxes to store the tomatoes?

Maybe it's not such a big deal and we all move on with our lives?

Maybe this is the big deal

not the bitter old bags of water we get on sale here

The person has the right to find out where their food is coming from.

SirPeter

jor el wrote: »

I never said they would be packaged in Spain, just Holland.

It could also be a mistake, or a lie.

It's hard to imagine how they could be sent to Holland, from Spain, unpackaged in some way. Not to mention the extra transport costs.

How does anyone imagine they can be transported from Spain, to Holland (or anywhere) unpackaged?

Why do you imagine they can then, eventually, be sold in Ireland as "Spanish" if they are, as you seemed earlier to claim, to have become "Product of Holland"? Surely, if they are now "Product of Holland", how can an irish supermarket sell them as "Spanish"?

jor el

SirPeter wrote: »

It's hard to imagine how they could be sent to Holland, from Spain, unpackaged in some way. Not to mention the extra transport costs.

How does anyone imagine they can be transported from Spain, to Holland (or anywhere) unpackaged?

They are shipped in large containers, then packaged in small boxes for retail market in another location. Why is this confusing people? This is very common practice. A company in one place (Holland for example) will buy bulk produce from another country (lorry loads of tomatoes from Spain, for example), then package them into smaller boxes to be shipped to local or distant retail shops.

Fyfes import bananas into Ireland from Belize by the boat load, then bag them, tag them, and export them all over Europe for retail. It makes Ireland quite a big producer of bananas, even though we don't grow them. It also doesn't make the bananas Irish, they're still from Belize, but they are Irish produced.

SirPeter wrote: »

Why do you imagine they can then, eventually, be sold in Ireland as "Spanish" if they are, as you seemed earlier to claim, to have become "Product of Holland"? Surely, if they are now "Product of Holland", how can an irish supermarket sell them as "Spanish"?

The box does say that they're a product of Holland though, doesn't it? It was a label that claims they are Spanish. The tomatoes may well be Spanish, but a produce of Holland. How is this still confusing you?

You really should read into food production and what the labels mean if it concerns you this much. What can legally be claimed on a label, where food is concerned, can sometimes be quite scary. Country of origin and Produce of, are two completely different things.

foggy_lad

when the tomatoes are picked and packed they are green and are most likely sent from spain to holland to be ripened in the same way that bananas are ripened in large sheds they would then be sent to ireland for retail sale

SirPeter

foggy_lad wrote: »

when the tomatoes are picked and packed they are green and are most likely sent from spain to holland to be ripened in the same way that bananas are ripened in large sheds they would then be sent to ireland for retail sale

Remember, jor el does not know if they are first produced in Spain, she is just guessing.

Now she seems to think that tomatoes can be all loaded into the back of a lorry, with no packging, and then travel from Spain to Holland, where they all arrive with no damage to the ones at the bottom of the lorry! Or the ones in the middle of the lorry. Most of them would be mush by the time they got to Holland if they were shipped in lorries with no packaging!

It's still not clear why she thinks that spanish farmers, who would normally get a premium for their tomatoes when compared to Dutch tomatoes, want to incur the extra expense of shipping their tomatoes to Holland, (which will also greatly increase the wastage if they do it in the back of some lorry with no packaging), and then have them packaged as "Produce of Holland" (for which the Irish consumer will pay less).

Or why the Dutch want to buy Spanish tomatoes at a high price, pay to import them into Holland (again remembering the wastage incurred if they are imported in bulk in a lorry with no extra packaging) and then put them into boxes which say "Produce of Holland". For which they will get less money than if they put them into boxes saying "Produce of Spain".

And then when they eventually get to the Irish supermarket the supermarket, who has bought Duthc tomatoes from a dutch supplier which says "Produce of Holland" on the box, then goes ahead to label them as "Spanish".

The only advantage to the Dutch is that Dutch tomatoes sell for less than Spanish tomatoes, so after doing all that they then get less money for their tomatoes than they would if they bought them in Spain, and shipped them direct to Ireland from Spain, by cutting out all the transport costs and increased wastage costs incurred by shipping them from Spain to Holland.

If the Dutch, after doing all that, want to sell them as Spainsh Tomatoes and get a higher price for them, why would they sell them in boxes labelled "Produce of Holland" ?

axer

SirPeter wrote: »

Remember, jor el does not know if they are first produced in Spain, she is just guessing.

Yes, from what I can see jor el is giving a possible reason why something could be a product of holland but still be spanish. None of us were in the shop with you nor have you taken a photo or told us the brand of tomatoes they are thus we can only try and come up with an explanation how it is possible.

SirPeter wrote: »

Now she seems to think that tomatoes can be all loaded into the back of a lorry, with no packging, and then travel from Spain to Holland, where they all arrive with no damage to the ones at the bottom of the lorry!

You do realise the likes of that happens everyday except they do not lob them all into the back of a lorry. They put them into large boxes and keep them cool etc. Its not rocket science.

SirPeter wrote: »

It's still not clear why she thinks that spanish farmers, who would normally get a premium for their tomatoes when compared to Dutch tomatoes, want to incur the extra expense of shipping their tomatoes to Holland, (which will also greatly increase the wastage if they do it in the back of some lorry with no packaging), and then have them packaged as "Produce of Holland" (for which the Irish consumer will pay less).

Maybe the dutch company is buying them in bulk. Maybe since holland is the logistics capital of the world that they can get them distributed very efficiently.

SirPeter wrote: »

Or why the Dutch want to buy Spanish tomatoes at a high price, pay to import them into Holland (again remembering the wastage incurred if they are imported in bulk in a lorry with no extra packaging) and then put them into boxes which say "Produce of Holland".

And then when they eventually get to the Irish supermarket the supermarket, who has bought Duthc tomatoes from a dutch supplier which says "Produce of Holland" on the box wants to label them as "Spanish".

How is anyone here supposed to know. Why not contact the company in question and ask them? You give f all facts and expect answers and then respond condescendingly when someone gives you a possible answer.

SirPeter wrote: »

The only advantage to the Dutch is that Dutch tomatoes sell for less than Spanish tomatoes, so after doing all that they then get less for their tomatoes than they would if they bought them in Spain, and shipped them direct to Ireland from Spain.

Id the Dutch, after doing all that, want to sell them as Spainsh Tomatoes and get a higher price for them, why would they sell them in boxes labelled "Produce of Holland" ?

Ring the distributor and ask them yourself.

SirPeter

axer wrote: »

Yes, from what I can see jor el is giving a possible reason why something could be a product of Holland but still be Spanish.

.

That’s what I said, jor el is guessing and there are many possible explanations. Another possible explanation is that the shop is making a mistake. Or maybe the shop is making an “on purpose”. Who knows.

We can all guess, like jor el. That doesn’t make the guess right. And in the case of the guess she seems very keen on, it doesn’t seem logical either for the reasons explained above.

I can quite well see someone buying Thailand chicken, importing it to Ireland adding value and calling it “Irish” chicken for a number of reasons (it attracts a higher price and is more socially acceptable). But to add costs to tomatoes and attract less price ? It doesn't seem very likely.

axer wrote: »

nor have you taken a photo

That’s strange because I could have sworn I did take a photo and am looking at it now. I must be mistaken then, since you clain, without doubt, that I have not taken a photo. How you know this, you don’t say.

axer wrote: »

You do realise the likes of that happens everyday except they do not lob them all into the back of a lorry. They put them into large boxes and keep them cool etc. Its not rocket science.

.

That’s possible, although jor el did state that they did not package them in Spain and sent them unpackaged to Holland. I wonder how much it costs to send a refrigerated lorry from Spain to Holland, and how much this adds to the costs of the tomatoes in question.

Business is not rocket science either, and no successful business of which I know would volunteer to ass to the costs of distribution in this way, when it is entirely unnecessary.

Nor would any business opt to turn a premium product, which attracts a premium price (i.e. Spanish tomatoes), into a lesser product which attracts a lesser price (i.e. Dutch tomatoes).

axer wrote: »

How anyone here is supposed to know..

That is my point. Jor-el seems to claim she does know when, in fact, she is guessing.

axer wrote: »

Why not contact the company in question and ask them?

I have asked them a number of times, perhaps 6, over the last 3 months and they are unable to give me an explanation. Yet they still sell Dutch tomatoes claiming they are Spanish tomatoes.

axer wrote: »

You give f all facts and expect answers and then respond condescendingly when someone gives you a possible answer.

Ring the distributor and ask them yourself.

I gave the facts as they are, and I don’t expect answers. If you think it is condescending to examine someone else’s claims, then that is a problem for you to deal with, and not me, as I fully expect a forum such as this to examine claims made.

keithclancy

Its cheaper to send bulk cargo via Rotterdam and onto Ireland by road as there is more capacity.

I.E. The ship is absolutely huge and carrying cargo onto Germany,Holland,Belgium,France,Ireland and the UK

I suspect those Tomatoes were shipped by Maersk

It wouldn't make logistical sense to send the stuff directly to Ireland as the Per Kilogram cost would be much higher.

axer

SirPeter wrote: »

That’s what I said, jor el is guessing and there are many possible explanations. Another possible explanation is that the shop is making a mistake. Or maybe the shop is making an “on purpose”. Who knows.

We can all guess, like jor el. That doesn’t make the guess right. And in the case of the guess she seems very keen on, it doesn’t seem logical either for the reasons explained above.

I can quite well see someone buying Thailand chicken, importing it to Ireland adding value and calling it “Irish” chicken for a number of reasons (it attracts a higher price and is more socially acceptable). But to add costs to tomatoes and attract less price ? It doesn't seem very likely.

What is the point of this thread then? Should we all just be posting "oh, that is terrible" or what?

SirPeter wrote: »

That’s strange because I could have sworn I did take a photo and am looking at it now. I must be mistaken then, since you clain, without doubt, that I have not taken a photo. How you know this, you don’t say.

My apologies if you did not understand what I meant. I meant take a photo and show us the photo. I can see now how you managed to take issue for jor el's post since you managed to miss this point too.

SirPeter wrote: »

That’s possible, although jor el did state that they did not package them in Spain and sent them unpackaged to Holland. I wonder how much it costs to send a refrigerated lorry from Spain to Holland, and how much this adds to the costs of the tomatoes in question.

Business is not rocket science either, and no successful business of which I know would volunteer to ass to the costs of distribution in this way, when it is entirely unnecessary.

Nor would any business opt to turn a premium product, which attracts a premium price (i.e. Spanish tomatoes), into a lesser product which attracts a lesser price (i.e. Dutch tomatoes).

We are giving opinions here - how do you expect us to respond with facts when you did not give us enough data?

You need to read up on logistics. Sometimes it can be cheaper and quicker sending items the opposite direction initially just to get to a busy distribution hub. Look up how DHL do it. For example I buy an item from pixmania in France but the item travels Germany first before being flown to london and then Ireland because it is cheaper and quicker to do it this way. Now before you over-react I am not saying this is the case here - I am saying it is very possible.

SirPeter wrote: »

That is my point. Jor-el seems to claim she does know when, in fact, she is guessing.

Wow, you are missing the point completely. Why would you take jor el's post as if he/she was speaking in definitive facts and not possbilities? I didn't miss that - how did you?

SirPeter wrote: »

I have asked them a number of times, perhaps 6, over the last 3 months and they are unable to give me an explanation. Yet they still sell Dutch tomatoes claiming they are Spanish tomatoes.

Why not either stop shopping there or contact the supplier of those tomatoes? You do not believe what the shop says anyway so why keep asking them?

SirPeter wrote: »

I gave the facts as they are, and I don’t expect answers. If you think it is condescending to examine someone else’s claims, then that is a problem for you to deal with, and not me, as I fully expect a forum such as this to examine claims made.

Because people are never wrong...oh wait...those running businesses are people too. You do not know whether the tomatoes are dutch or spanish but are asserting they are not spanish without evidence to back you up. Jor el did not make claims - you are the only one on this thread that made claims! Everyone else was offering possibilities. Do you not see that?

whiterebel

keithclancy wrote: »

Its cheaper to send bulk cargo via Rotterdam and onto Ireland by road as there is more capacity.

I.E. The ship is absolutely huge and carrying cargo onto Germany,Holland,Belgium,France,Ireland and the UK

I suspect those Tomatoes were shipped by Maersk

It wouldn't make logistical sense to send the stuff directly to Ireland as the Per Kilogram cost would be much higher.

There are loads of refrigerated trailers coming out of Spain every day bringing all manner of fruit and vegetables into Ireland directly. I would think the cost of running to Holland and then on to Ireland would be prohibitive to say the least, as well as increasing the likelihood of damage with extra handling.

axer

whiterebel wrote: »

There are loads of refrigerated trailers coming out of Spain every day bringing all manner of fruit and vegetables into Ireland directly. I would think the cost of running to Holland and then on to Ireland would be prohibitive to say the least, as well as increasing the likelihood of damage with extra handling.

Except we do not know this in this case. It is a possibility that the tomatoes are shipped via holland akin to the example given earlier regarding bananas. It is the only way of explaining "Product of Holland" with spanish tomatoes. It is either that or the shop is wrong.

The only way to know for sure here if the shop cannot be trusted is the contact the supplier. Surely they are mentioned on packaging somewhere. I could understand the OP creating this thread if he/she had already gained the facts but it seems he/she is working off assumptions here - so what is the point of this thread again?

jor el

axer wrote: »

so what is the point of this thread again?

I'm not sure. The only way to know what country the tomatoes are from is to ask the shop manager.

In terms of the labelling, and at the risk of repeating myself, country of origin, and produce of, are two different things. A food producer in Holland could import tomatoes from Spain, pack them (and possibly ripen in a sun-room), and export them to other countries. They can then class them as "Produced in Holland" which then counts towards their export stats. This is most likely a status thing, makes it look like you're a big exporter, even though you're really only exporting what you imported.

It is a requirement to list the country of origin on fresh fruit/veg and dairy products, so these tomatoes would have to be labelled as being from Spain, even though they are Dutch produced.

As for cost, who says the Dutch are selling them cheaper than Spanish tomatoes? If they're labelled as Spanish, being sold as Spanish in the shop, and priced as such, then the Dutch producers would simply have bought them in bulk (cheaper), finished them, and exported at the highest possible price. Probably charging more than for tomatoes that were grown in Holland.

As always, this is just a possible explanation for why Spanish labelled tomatoes are in a box that says produce of Holland. But I hope it clears up why a product of one country can be sourced in another country, and why the two contradictory labels are in place.

By the way, jor el; he, not she.

keithclancy

whiterebel wrote: »

There are loads of refrigerated trailers coming out of Spain every day bringing all manner of fruit and vegetables into Ireland directly. I would think the cost of running to Holland and then on to Ireland would be prohibitive to say the least, as well as increasing the likelihood of damage with extra handling.

The cost of shipping via sea is far far lower per tonne than by road, so by cutting out alot of the Distance by road you cut out a large part of the cost.
Rotterdam is the Hub for alot of Europe, the ports in Dublin/Cork simply could not handle some of the ships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07rgy0343lI

SirPeter

jor el wrote: »

I'm not sure. The only way to know what country the tomatoes are from is to ask the shop manager.

If the shop is trying to be deceptive, the shop manager is hardly likely to admit it. I did ask the manager a few times and she admitted it was a "mistake" and said they would change the shop label.

It's kind of you to, once again, tell us all the difference between "country of origin" and "produce of". And, once again, if the box says "produce of" then the shop should not be advertising them as produce of somewhere else.

Its curious as to why some here want to try to guess as to where the tomatoes were grown, and then concoct a whole story about it!

I have a photograph of it but have no idea how to upload it here - if anyone wants to see a photo then I'll upload it if someone can advise how to do it.

jor el

SirPeter wrote: »

I have a photograph of it but have no idea how to upload it here - if anyone wants to see a photo then I'll upload it if someone can advise how to do it.

When posting, scroll down and you'll see a button labelled "Manage Attachments". You can upload a pic there.

SirPeter

Thanks - I've uploaded one of the pics here.

whiterebel

keithclancy wrote: »

The cost of shipping via sea is far far lower per tonne than by road, so by cutting out alot of the Distance by road you cut out a large part of the cost.
Rotterdam is the Hub for alot of Europe, the ports in Dublin/Cork simply could not handle some of the ships:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07rgy0343lI

Thanks, I think 20 years in the Freight business means I know what way shipping works......;)
You need to take into account a perishable product, easily damaged and relatively low value.
You're doing a great job advertising a certain shipping line though.

Wile E. Coyote

I really don't think your getting the whole concept of 'Country of Origin' and 'Produce of'. If there is such a big price difference as you claim, between Spanish and Dutch tomatoes. Why do you find it so extraordinary that a company in Holland would buy the Spanish tomatoes in bulk for distribution and sale around Europe?

tech01

Have you contacted the supplier here?
http://www.videau.nl/videau_en.html

From what I see on their website they source fruit and veg in both holland and internationally so it is possible the tomatoes are from Spain. Only way to know for sure is to contact them above and they can tell you.

SirPeter

tech01 wrote: »

Have you contacted the supplier here?
http://www.videau.nl/videau_en.html

From what I see on their website they source fruit and veg in both holland and internationally so it is possible the tomatoes are from Spain. Only way to know for sure is to contact them above and they can tell you.

Once again, for anyone who might have missed it, I asked the shop manager and she confirmed that it was a mistake on behalf of the shop and would change the "Spanish" label to "Dutch".

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I really don't think your getting the whole concept of 'Country of Origin' and 'Produce of'. If there is such a big price difference as you claim, between Spanish and Dutch tomatoes. Why do you find it so extraordinary that a company in Holland would buy the Spanish tomatoes in bulk for distribution and sale around Europe?

If that’s what you think , then that’s what you think.

I find it so extraordinary because

(i) it adds costs on to the price of Spanish tomatoes,
(ii) The Dutch company reduces the price it can achieve for Spanish tomatoes by rebranding them as the inferior “Dutch” tomatoes.

I’ve often been to the fruit and veg markets in Dublin and elsewhere, and if a vendor tries to sell a box of tomatoes labelled “Produce of Holland” as “Spanish tomatoes”, he’d be laughed out of it and thought to be dishonest.

jor el

SirPeter wrote: »

Thanks - I've uploaded one of the pics here.

Thanks. Nothing on the box, or on the tomatoes themselves (a sticker) indicates their country of origin, which they are supposed to have. Only the produce location is indicated. The SEL that the shop has in place does say the country of origin is Spain, but this could just be a mistake (or deliberately misleading).

Have you been back to the shop, and have they corrected the label that the manager said was a mistake?

keithclancy

whiterebel wrote: »

Thanks, I think 20 years in the Freight business means I know what way shipping works......;)
You need to take into account a perishable product, easily damaged and relatively low value.
You're doing a great job advertising a certain shipping line though.

Shipping from Spain (Bilbao - Rotterdam) only requires 2 extra days maximum vs road. All of the containers with perishable goods are refidgerated and handling isn't an issue as the container is not opened from when it leaves it origin until it arrives at its destination.

Its not like they chuck the stuff off the side of the boat.

It wasn't meant to be advertising either, simply that they have the largest ships in the world with capacity for 1000 refridgerated containers.

Of course, depending on the cost of freight for the day and the amount you have, it may be more cost effective to use a combination of road/rail etc.

One point though, I live in Holland and whenever I travel to Ireland or the UK I pick up a packet of Rashers as you cant really get them here, only to get home and see written on the back "Product of Holland"