shop wouldnt accept €5

boarduser1980

yesterday i got €5 note in my change, the middle of it was cellotaped, like someone had ripped it and cellotaped it..fair enough it happens, and i didnt think anything of it.

i was in my local supermarket half an hour ago to buy milk and papers, it came to €6.39, i opened my purse and took out the €5 and bit of change, the cashier refused to take the fiver from me. I said to him 'its still legal tender', he said he cant accept it because nobody will take it from him , i said 'well i took it from somebody in change', this quarrel went on for couple of mins. i said to him 'then dont give it out in change, just lodge it with your bank transactions' and he said 'we dont do bank transactions, we lodge all our money into the ATM doesnt make sense, he was just making an excuse.
I picked up my milk and papers ready to walk away, and he said 'you wait there and see if somebody accepts it from me', i just said 'look i took it from somebody in change, its legal tender' and he said 'okay then, if nobody takes this from me, i will give it back to you the next time your in I just walked out of the shop with my purchases

any opinions on this??

rameire

Dambant wrote: »

any opinions on this??

Yes
everyone has an opinion, this is Boards.ie

in relation to your query
he did not have to accept your money.
it may be legal tender but he can still refuse to accept it.

boarduser1980

rameire wrote: »

Yes
everyone has an opinion, this is Boards.ie

i was looking for an opinion not a smart comment.

rameire

Dambant wrote: »

i was looking for an opinion not a smart comment.

well your in for a rough ride.

and as i said

in relation to your query
he did not have to accept your money.
it may be legal tender but he can still refuse to accept it.

Max Power1

Its legal tender, regardless of the sellotape.

as there was no contract, the shop was not bound (afaik) to accept the money from you

collegeme

op looks like you're going to get smart comments:rolleyes: ...it is boards.ie after all.

The shop was just being plain awkward..ok fair enough he wasn't legally bound to take it but ffs it was a €5 note and the bank would accept it.

I wouldn't shop there on pribnciple if it were me....the attitude cost them a lot more than a fiver

florida051

he would be down a customer if it was me i know plenty of shops that would be happy to take it .;)

P. Breathnach

There are two issues here.

First, is a banknote that has been torn and taped together legal tender? The answer to that is that it is, unless it so damaged that there can be a doubt about what it is. See http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0016/sec0121.html

The second issue is whether a shopkeeper is obliged to accept it. The answer to that depends on whether or not you owe money to that shopkeeper. When you approach a counter or checkout in order to purchase goods, you owe nothing, and if you let the shopkeeper see a damaged (or even an undamaged) note, the shopkeeper can refuse to deal with you. At some point as the transaction proceeds, the goods become yours and you owe the shopkeeper money. In my opinion, that happens when checking out has been completed and the sales assistant hits the total button. When that happens, you have a debt, and legal tender, by definition, must be accepted in settlement of a debt.

I think it would be quite proper to deposit the money there and walk off with the purchases.

dudara

I think there is a lot of confusion over legal tender. Legal tender is payment offered in service of a debt. It is not a bank note. It so happens that we use bank notes to cover debt.

At the point of sale, there was technically no debt. He did not have to take the bank note from you.

You walked away with the goods without paying for them. That E5 note is potentially worthless and does not cover the debt accrued.

jor el

Dambant wrote: »

i was looking for an opinion not a smart comment.

You got an opinion. You also got an answer to your question. What more do you want? Are you looking for opinions on what you did, or what the shop attendant did, because you're going to have to accept both? Since you got your goods, and paid for them, I don't see what anyone's opinion means right now. It looks to me like you're looking for everyone to give you a clap on the back for a job well done.

As it stands, you were wrong. The shop didn't have to accept your money, but you forced it on them and walked off with the goods. Having not actually accepted your money, then technically you were shoplifting.

You shouldn't have accepted the torn note in the first place, or having accepted it, you should have brought it to the bank and changed it for a good note. Forcing it onto a retailer was wrong, but since you've done it, and got away with it, so what else are you looking for?

cruizer101

Just with regards to them lodging it in the bank. Its true that a lot of shops make lodgements by filling up their atm, this means not having to transport the money to the bank which makes a lot of sense. Secondly shops never deposits 5's its usually only 50's and 20's. In fact they normally have to order 5's from the bank if anything.
Was a bit crappy of them not to accept it but don't think there is much you can do bar not going there anymore.

rubberdiddies

dudara wrote: »

You walked away with the goods without paying for them. That E5 note is potentially worthless and does not cover the debt accrued.

whilst I agree the shopkeeper doesnt have to take the money, I'm not sure why you think it is potentially worthless?

I lodge sellotaped money to the bank on many occasions and its never been an issue

slavetothegrind

very interesting...

so if i fill the car with petrol and go to the till and present a 200 euro note?

As the petrol is unreturnable i have a debt to pay.

Can they refuse to take my payment in that form?

I say this as i have seen notices up saying 100 and 200 notes not accepted and thought i could have been caught out here!

judas101

slavetothegrind wrote: »

very interesting...

so if i fill the car with petrol and go to the till and present a 200 euro note?

As the petrol is unreturnable i have a debt to pay.

Can they refuse to take my payment in that form?

I say this as i have seen notices up saying 100 and 200 notes not accepted and thought i could have been caught out here!

I think in this scenario they can accept the note but are not obliged to provide change.

slavetothegrind

well there's no way that is acceptable!!!

P. Breathnach

slavetothegrind wrote: »

well there's no way that is acceptable!!!

Them's the rules.

jor el

slavetothegrind wrote: »

well there's no way that is acceptable!!!

Unfortunately for the person in question, if you did force a shop to accept a €200 note for a €20 debt (petrol already in the car), the shop is not legally obliged to provide change. Forcing their hand in that case, would be a very silly move.

Nolimits

rubberdiddies wrote: »

whilst I agree the shopkeeper doesnt have to take the money, I'm not sure why you think it is potentially worthless?

I lodge sellotaped money to the bank on many occasions and its never been an issue

It's potentially worthless because it could be a fake disguised as a battered note to make it harder to confirm its authenticity

dlofnep

P. Breathnach wrote: »

There are two issues here.

First, is a banknote that has been torn and taped together legal tender? The answer to that is that it is, unless it so damaged that there can be a doubt about what it is. See http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0016/sec0121.html

The second issue is whether a shopkeeper is obliged to accept it. The answer to that depends on whether or not you owe money to that shopkeeper. When you approach a counter or checkout in order to purchase goods, you owe nothing, and if you let the shopkeeper see a damaged (or even an undamaged) note, the shopkeeper can refuse to deal with you. At some point as the transaction proceeds, the goods become yours and you owe the shopkeeper money. In my opinion, that happens when checking out has been completed and the sales assistant hits the total button. When that happens, you have a debt, and legal tender, by definition, must be accepted in settlement of a debt.

I think it would be quite proper to deposit the money there and walk off with the purchases.

POW.

Now that's how you answer a question.

dlofnep

jor el wrote: »

Unfortunately for the person in question, if you did force a shop to accept a €200 note for a €20 debt (petrol already in the car), the shop is not legally obliged to provide change. Forcing their hand in that case, would be a very silly move.

Is that true? Why would they not be obliged to give you change?

Max Power1

dlofnep wrote: »

Is that true? Why would they not be obliged to give you change?

Legal tender is only applicable in terms of settlement of debt.

The debt in this case was €20, and the retailer must accept legal tender in repayment of said debt.

The remainder is deemed a gift, as there is no obligation on you to pay more than the debt amount, same as there is no obligation on the retailer (or any retailer for that matter) to give change. An interesting concept that I was unaware of until recently.

dlofnep

Max Power1 wrote: »

Legal tender is only applicable in terms of settlement of debt.

The debt in this case was €20, and the retailer must accept legal tender in repayment of said debt.

The remainder is deemed a gift, as there is no obligation on you to pay more than the debt amount, same as there is no obligation on the retailer (or any retailer for that matter) to give change. An interesting concept that I was unaware of until recently.

Well fuck that for a game of soldiers. That sounds absurd.

slavetothegrind

jor el wrote: »

Unfortunately for the person in question, if you did force a shop to accept a €200 note for a €20 debt (petrol already in the car), the shop is not legally obliged to provide change. Forcing their hand in that case, would be a very silly move.

Nobody's talking about forcing anything here, we're all civilised right;)

so what is the resolution of the matter?

I owe say 50 and have only a 200 note. I offer it as payment only for it to be refused.
I offer to come back with change and they accept as i look trustworthy???

i accept this may be a case of the law is an ass but seriously what will a retailer expect in this far from unlikely situation?

jor el

It may sound absurd, but it is what it is. In practice, it's unlikely that any retailer would actually do this, as they would soon be out of business once word spread, which is why they always give change.

I don't understand why these simple little facts (offer & acceptance, legal tender, invitation to treat, etc) can't be thought to everyone at Junior Cert level, as it's something that everyone really should know about. You get an awful lot of hardships in the retail industry cause mainly by people (retailers and consumers) that have just a little bit of knowledge, but not enough to know what they're talking about. It invariably leads to the "I know my rights" brigade shouting about something they really don't know anything about. It should at least be on the front page of Consumerconnect.ie.

jor el

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Nobody's talking about forcing anything here, we're all civilised right;)

Well, if they refuse your €200 note as settlement of a €50 debt, you could force them to accept it by claiming they cannot refuse legal tender for a debt. This is true, but if they know the law, then they don't have to give change. So it would be foolish of anyone that owes a small amount to try and force a retailer to accept more than this amount.

slavetothegrind wrote: »

I owe say 50 and have only a 200 note. I offer it as payment only for it to be refused.
I offer to come back with change and they accept as i look trustworthy???

i accept this may be a case of the law is an ass but seriously what will a retailer expect in this far from unlikely situation?

It would be between the two parties to come to an arrangement. Maybe the retailer accepts the €200, and offers to repay the change at a later time, when it's available. A credit note could be given to the consumer, and this could be later exchanged for the change. The retailer could issue the consumer with a credit invoice, which the consumer pays at a later date. Basically anything goes, but it's up to them to arrange it between themselves.

P. Breathnach

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Nobody's talking about forcing anything here, we're all civilised right;)

Well, some of us are.

so what is the resolution of the matter?

The usual resolution is that a retailer makes change as a courtesy to the customer. Sometimes that is not practicable (no change to hand; no place nearby to get some).

In fairness, the obligation is on the customer to sort things out. If the customer is known to the retailer, credit night be allowed for a short period (or not, in some cases, because of what the retailer knows about the customer).

Perhaps the customer might leave the large note with the retailer and call back later for change, or leave some other item as security while he goes off to find change.

slavetothegrind

jor el wrote: »

I don't understand why these simple little facts (offer & acceptance, legal tender, invitation to treat, etc) can't be thought to everyone at Junior Cert level, as it's something that everyone really should know about.

perhaps the central bank shouldn't issue notes above the value of 50 euro if retailers will not accept them.
What's the fecking point?

:rolleyes:

cc-offe

Sorry Op but that just made me laugh...if I was you I would be wishing the shopkeeper didn't get anyone to accept it and then tried to get me to take it in my change the next time.....I would tell him to feck off just to annoy him!

P. Breathnach

slavetothegrind wrote: »

perhaps the central bank shouldn't issue notes above the value of 50 euro if retailers will not accept them.
What's the fecking point?

:rolleyes:

Because it is the European Central Bank, and practices vary from place to place.

In Ireland, people generally do not use denominations higher than €50. ATMs do not issue higher denominations, and bank tellers do not do so unless specifically requested. I have never been given a higher denomination than €50 in Ireland, but I got €100 notes from an ATM in Vienna.

slavetothegrind

P. Breathnach wrote: »

bank tellers do not do so unless specifically requested.

not true, if you withdraw over 1000 euros they will, granted they sometimes ask.

Also i have been given both 100 and 200 notes as payment.

anyhow i think we have been well informed of the legalities here thanks to above posters and go forth having learned something. which is more than you can say for some threads:D

P. Breathnach

slavetothegrind wrote: »

not true, if you withdraw over 1000 euros they will, granted they sometimes ask.

Some of us are not in a position to make withdrawals that big!

Handyman1

Dambant wrote: »

yesterday i got €5 note in my change, the middle of it was cellotaped, like someone had ripped it and cellotaped it..fair enough it happens, and i didnt think anything of it. QUOTE]


I found all this very interesting… So going back to the first part of the OP question, if say she had refused to take the torn note from the first vendor - they in turn could have said “take it or leave it” and would be right by law in doing so :eek:

digital_d

Not sure if the OP noticed this or not - but where the serial numbers on both parts the same - I've had a few occasions where i've had notes with mismatched serial numbers. These have been refused by banks.

Also, it's becoming more common that shops have safes that have a bill acceptor on them that count cash, and seal this in acceptor that only cash collect companies can collect, a badly creased, dog eared, or tapped note would be rejected by this.

drunkmonkey

Is there a case for plastic notes like they have in Oz?

Run_to_da_hills

Max Power1 wrote: »

Its legal tender, regardless of the sellotape.

as there was no contract, the shop was not bound (afaik) to accept the money from you

Its no longer legal tender if it had been altered / mutilated or adapted from the original note. In this case it was ripped in half and patched up with sellotape.

The OP should have taken this note to a bank and got them to deal with it, if a local bank refuses to accept it the Central Bank will. Bringing this to a local retailer is only passing the book.

If the note is very badly damaged, ie parts of the serial number missing the bank will hold off refunding you until such time as they can trace the origion of the note and make sure it is not a part of a scam. I once had to wait six months for a refund on a damaged £20 note from the Central Bank.

rainyrun

i work in retail and we avoid accepting large notes off €200 upwards as giving change could wipe out the till float!!... most customers are very understanding.. have never had a problem anyway.

Run_to_da_hills

rainyrun wrote: »

i work in retail and we avoid accepting large notes off €200 upwards as giving change could wipe out the till float!!... most customers are very understanding.. have never had a problem anyway.

In the UK there is talk of banning Euro notes over €100 and I wouldn't blame them. In the US its the same, its almost impossible to cash anything over $50 in smaller retail outlets.

delllat

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In the UK there is talk of banning Euro notes over €100 and I wouldn't blame them. In the US its the same, its almost impossible to cash anything over $50 in smaller retail outlets.

why would they bother to ban euros in a country that doesnt take them anyway ?

Run_to_da_hills

delllat wrote: »

why would they bother to ban euros in a country that doesnt take them anyway ?

Correction, its actually the €500 bill.

And yes UK exchange offices and banks do regularly deal in Euro currency.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8678886.stm

ShooterSF

I used to get handed a 500 euro note from a customer every saturday morning for a cup of coffee. Luckilly it was a busy bar and I just started carrying a bigger float in expectation (there was 15000 accessible in a main safe) Had I known the law then I think I would have offered to accept it but wont give change just to see his face

slavetothegrind

ok i give up

Jev/N

€200 and €500 are for inter-bank transfers AFAIK, not for Joe public

Ms. Chanandler Bong

To the poster who asked about signs in shops saying notes over a certain value aren't accepted: this is due, in large part, to the number of forgeries going around. I know of one business in Galway city in the recent past that was hit 3 times in one day by dodgy €100 notes, didn't find out until they were doing their lodgement the following day.:eek: The guards came around to most businesses telling them to be aware of the increased number of forgeries in the area. Hey presto! signs everywhere refusing €100 notes & above.:rolleyes:
Working in retail, I know that we never lodge €5 or €10 notes, but keep them to use as banks charge us for ordering them. A note torn in half may be missing it's strip down the middle. Any note missing any of it's legal identifying marks can be refused. I've had customers refuse to accept notes from me, so yes OP, you could have refused it in the original transaction. Mind you, I would have made faces at you as you walked away from the till if you did it to me:D
On the other hand, I've had customers ask me if I had any nice new non-crinkled notes because they want to put them in a birthday card for the grandkids!:pac:
Funny story: new girl at work, 1st day was a Friday, started at 12.30. Did lift on till at 3pm in preparation for doing last lodgement before wkend. Forged fifty in the till. Note was a (bad) photocopy. "Lead strip" was covered with elastoplast. "Foil badge" was tinfoil. We were p!ssing ourselves at how bad a forgery it was...she wasn't obviously!:D:D:D

Dave147

jor el wrote: »

You got an opinion. You also got an answer to your question. What more do you want? Are you looking for opinions on what you did, or what the shop attendant did, because you're going to have to accept both? Since you got your goods, and paid for them, I don't see what anyone's opinion means right now. It looks to me like you're looking for everyone to give you a clap on the back for a job well done.

As it stands, you were wrong. The shop didn't have to accept your money, but you forced it on them and walked off with the goods. Having not actually accepted your money, then technically you were shoplifting.

You shouldn't have accepted the torn note in the first place, or having accepted it, you should have brought it to the bank and changed it for a good note. Forcing it onto a retailer was wrong, but since you've done it, and got away with it, so what else are you looking for?

She should be locked up and the key thrown away tbh..

The first reply was a smart comment, nothing more. I can honestly say I'd be pissed off too if I went into the shop and got that treatment, we often get ripped money, I bloody sellotape it for them ffs, it's not a big deal. The shopkeeper was being an arrogant ass and the OP stood her ground, fair play for being assertive.

Midnight_EG

I'd like to think the fiver I had last week, the ripped up and sellotaped one, was the one the OP had

Agent Smith

rainyrun wrote: »

i work in retail and we avoid accepting large notes off €200 upwards as giving change could wipe out the till float!!... most customers are very understanding.. have never had a problem anyway.

Unlike people who win 200 or so on the lotto on a sat night, and Present the ticket first thing sunday morning.

people being unable to comprehend that the till Doesn't quite have enough cash is beyond them

sunnysoutheast

delllat wrote: »

why would they bother to ban euros in a country that doesnt take them anyway ?

Many of the larger retailers will happily take Euros in some stores, but I think it's usually restricted to €100 notes and below.

SSE

Del2005

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

In the UK there is talk of banning Euro notes over €100 and I wouldn't blame them. In the US its the same, its almost impossible to cash anything over $50 in smaller retail outlets.

I remember the UK story it was 1 small Bureau de change that was ordering nearly all the €500 notes in the UK. They where offering a nice laundry service.