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M9 motorway (general thread)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Probably an upgrade. There is new financial support available for EV infrastructure on motorways.

    It doesn’t take long to build one of these places, the land is cleared already, and the necessary services (power, water, drainage) are very close by in Mullinavat. About 18 months or so.

    M9 is pretty badly served for charging infrastructure. There’s two DC charger stations (one fast, one medium) at Kilcullen Services, and then that’s it for a nearby fast-charging option until you get to Waterford.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    There are two new Applegreen 150 kW chargers at Paulstown now, so the route is a little bit better served than before. But with EVs being over 15% of the new car market now, we'll need more!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭yannakis




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Does anyone have the original design for how the N24, N25 and M9 were going to be linked up.

    Drove through this in the weekend and it reminded me of just how bad a design it is. It’s an absolute mess.

    • grade separated roundabout between N25 and N9 when something like a partially unrolled cloverleaf would have been cheaper with much higher capacity.
    • A link road to an at-grade roundabout serving N24 and M9

    What mad man came up with this?


    As noted, why didn’t they do a partially unrolled cloverleaf for the N9 - N25 junction and then a trumpet for N24 to N9?

    Post edited by AugustusMinimus on


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    It is mindboggling.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    I think it was mentioned before that this was not the originally intended layout and that this is a fudge of sorts before an additional N24 scheme goes ahead?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The N24 Mooncoin Bypass was planned before M9, and as far as I can tell it was not revisited before 2011, when it was officially suspended. The map below shows the last-known corridor for the N24 scheme, from 2002. This was expected to be a 2+1 road, like the N24 Piltown-Fiddown scheme, just west of it.

    The blue part at bottom-right is the terminal roundabout for M9, although when this was drawn that road was still planned to be N9.

    Based on that, the eventual junction could be as simple as this:


    I don’t accept that the current interchange is a “bad design”. It does a lot in a very limited space. If you don’t know the terrain here, it’s easy to be fooled into thinking that a full free-flowing interchange was a possibility for N25/N9, but in the photo below, note that there are three levels here already, so even what you think is the “ground” level for any free-flow junction would have to be elevated...

    For an on-the-ground view, look around from here: R448 - Google Maps



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,541 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    The N9 - N25 junction is a 3 level junction to facilitate the old N9. A partially unrolled cloverleaf would have provided a full free flow junction with only 2 levels needed (and another to facilitate the old N9.

    I don’t believe this comes down to cost. Rather bad planning and design. Nothing but a grade separated roundabout was considered back then. We have the M6 - M17 - M18 triple layer roundabout in Galway which is an absolutely monstrosity. I’m glad to see this way of thinking is gone at this stage.


    The at-grade roundabout for N9 -N24 is truly crazy though. Why not build a trumpet? Again, I think it was simply due to draconian junction design back then. Anything past a roundabout was not accepted.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    A partially unrolled cloverleaf won't fit in the area available. That type of interchange is quite space inefficient (pretty much the same space needed as a cloverleaf) which is why they're rare in Europe.

    This interchange is not a problem. It works, even if people might not like it. Most traffic is between N9 and N25 as this is de facto Waterford's northern orbital, very little joining/leaving M9 or N24.



  • Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Agree that the N9/N25 interchange works fine as is but I do agree that a better job should have been done on the M9/N24 interface to create some freeflow movements.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The N9/N25/N24 junction is actually fine (as is M6/M17/M18 actually), they both work and there isn't the traffic to really ever join them up.


    But the N9/N25/N24 junction is an absolute mess to look at, and could have been done much better.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Yes, but only to look at - it functions pretty well. I think it’s an example of good engineering: anything fancier would be a waste of resources given the requirements.

    Separating the N25 from M9/N24 is actually a really good idea, as it stops the northern terminus of the bridge being the site of a major cross interchange (see Dunkettle for a counter-example), even if it looks weird on a map to have M9/N24 not “join up” with N25 directly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    I do get what you are saying but it still feels weird that having driven along the M9 uninterupted for over 100 km Waterford bound traffic from the M9 has to potentially give way twice in a short space time to 2 different routes. I guess though that's similar to what happens on the M6 at the Coolagh roundabout so I suppose we have form for ending motorways at roundabouts.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,464 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    Anyone who thinks the end of the M9 is "good engineering" must be on a wind up.

    They cheaped out. Didn't want to build a proper junction. It's the shoddiest, cheapest way to join two DCs.

    We shouldn't be accepting second rate compared to other European countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    I’ve never had an issue with this junction- and I’ve been travelling into Waterford and onwards at rush hour times. Bit of a queue was all that moved along quickly. Granted I don’t drive it daily or anything but don’t think it’s a bottle neck as such



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Any news on the services planned at Mullinavat? Badly needed in my opinion



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,446 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    You quoted my post, so just to clear it up for you, I’m not “on a wind up”. Good engineering means achieving the required performance with the minimum use of resources. This junction fits that description. Have you ever seen it jammed in normal use? It’s handling the traffic perfectly well. Even at morning and evening peaks, it’s a matter of seconds to clear it.

    I get that it doesn’t “look” like you think an interchange should, but if you’d built all the pretty free-flowing link roads, but you’d have spent five times as much money doing it, and the thing wouldn’t work any better. Over-engineering is bad engineering.

    In another European country, this would not have even been a motorway. But there’s no unbreakable law about how you terminate a motorway. Here’s the terminus of Autobahn 81 in Southwest Germany, with a nice roundabout for you:

    .. and at the other end of the country, A27, Cuxhaven (on the Elbe estuary).

    But here’s A31 at Emden, which ends at a crossroads:

    ..and A94, which turns into a city street, and finally ends at crossroads on the eastern side of Munich.


    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    I actually drove it last Saturday morning for the first time in a long while (heading to the N25). It's fine. It just doesn't look elegant!



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,849 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    That junction feels like a bit of a bodge but is actually doing ok. I still think the N24 should have merged a bit north with the M9 and a trumpet junction put in on the N25, but I think the geography of the area would have made anything more complex like that stupidly expensive. Remember half of the N25/N9 junction is on a viaduct type of thing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2 pjvalentine


    ,1

    Post edited by pjvalentine on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2 pjvalentine


    Planning refused by kilkenny coco due to problems with groundwater and water quality.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high



    I just read the same- surely there’s a way of improving the waste water filter and over coming this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,388 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Disappointing if it doesn’t happen as there’s no services between Waterford and Kilkenny and they are badly needed in my opinion



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭Rulmeq


    I've been forced to use this road lately, and I noticed that there's some temporary looking signs just before some of the exits, like this one at junction 11 going north:

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.3681279,-7.1654106,3a,23.8y,-7.01h,90.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOVd-y7oqbHOxUbBVb_PHxw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

    same going south (this one has a leg outside the barrier just for added enjoyment):

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.3809508,-7.1712612,3a,75y,107.07h,73.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3HAQYoz064bti7KDILAj4w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

    Now I'd noticed them before, and was thinking they were just temporary signage, or that maybe some locals got together to add their town/village onto the signs (they have the same as the "official" signs barely 300m before them, New Ross & Mullinavat, so it doesn't seem to be that).

    The "official" sign, barely 300m north of the southbound one for reference: https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.3826877,-7.1721174,3a,75y,141.53h,89.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNrbdJDjrM9sP9fvRhDuoZw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

    and the same at 1km north of it:

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.3873992,-7.1717917,3a,75y,145.21h,88.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sE8oc076z_6GPkdTW6sm7Ww!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

    Here is the one at exit 10 as well (north bound): https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.478923,-7.2404692,3a,75y,337.93h,88.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9VqhZsUQUjCjITJo6po7Ag!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D9VqhZsUQUjCjITJo6po7Ag%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D198.08243%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

    At least this one doesn't fully match the "official" sign, but in this case it has fewer towns listed:

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.4740534,-7.2395686,3a,75y,335.6h,85.19t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szd_vFNSKvGO1GT4CkaadDA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?coh=205409&entry=ttu

    Looking at google maps, there doesn't appear to be a southbound version of that one.

    Does anyone know what the story is (apologies if it was brought up before, I did try searching the forum, but couldn't find anything)



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