Parents blaming doctors for child deaths etc whats your view

bigpink

Look a death is not easy to take but surely blaming doctors and staff is wrong sometimes people cant be treated

And sometimes they cant find what is exactly wrong

peanuthead

IMO a lot of the times when something goes wrong with a parents child they will blame anyone but themselves.

Doctors, teachers, minders. Its never their fault. (And fair enough, rightly so sometimes it isn't)

My personal favourite is "I never normally let him out of my sight"

who what when

And sometimes they fcuk up. As long as theres humans theres going to be human error, we might as well just accept that fact

up for anything

bigpink wrote: »

Look a death is not easy to take but surely blaming doctors and staff is wrong sometimes people cant be treated

And sometimes they cant find what is exactly wrong

And sometimes they just **** up!

AckwelFoley

peanuthead wrote: »

IMO a lot of the times when something goes wrong with a parents child they will blame anyone but themselves.

"

Its always someone elses fault, its somehow human nature.

Ever see some one stump their toe in something, their first split second reaction after pain is anger.. "who the hell put that there?" :mad:

phasers

Depends.

If a Doctor administers the wrong meds or something - Doctor's fault.

If the parents drop the child off the Doctor's table - parents' fault

who what when

up for anything wrote: »

And sometimes they just **** up!

Is there an echo in here?

marzic

who what when wrote: »

Is there an echo in here?

is there an echo in here?

Micky Dolenz

Some parents blame some doctors for not avoiding a death because this is sometimes the case. The large majority of deaths would not be blamed on doctors.

I don't see where you are coming from.

Terry

What is the cause of death that you are referring to, OP?

Cat Melodeon

I think in cases where a doctor removes the wrong organ because of careless record keeping or where doctors refuse to listen to the child's/parent's description of the symptoms and bully them into leaving the hospital without a thorough examination only for the child to die within 24 hours, in cases like those, yes, parents are completely entitled to blame their doctors.

mikemac

Every single case is different.

Anyone there is a well established procedure in place, investigations and court cases are pretty common and get all the facts

I suppose there was the case of Bronagh Livingstone
Delivered after 25 weeks so 10 weeks or so premature

Parents went to Monaghan, were sent to Cavan but the child was born and died in the ambulance on the way, never made it to Cavan.

Very sad, the grandfather attacked Michaél Martin.
But even with a hospital on your doorstep to be born that far premature, there are no gurantees at all and odds are against you.
People lashing out and the nearest target was the health minister, it's understandable I suppose

http://www.rte.ie/news/2002/1212/monaghan.html

mardybumbum

phasers wrote: »

Depends.

If a Doctor administers the wrong meds or something - Doctor's fault.

If the parents drop the child off the Doctor's table - parents' fault

If only it were that simple. What about a doctor that prescribes a wrong medication after working 36 hours straight and is half asleep?

Son Of A Vidic

It's about the context and the bigger picture here. People make mistakes all the time, especially in a high pressure clinical environment. But was it a genuine mistake, or was it a mistake based on cockiness (God complex). I've seen instances of both occur, but it's the latter one that is totally unacceptable and unforgivable.

DOC09UNAM

What about if they find out what is wrong with someone, perfectly fixable, and then lose the charts, and don't find them again until after that person has already passed away.

My name is URL

If something goes wrong in OLOLH in Drogheda there's a 90% chance it's the doctor's fault

*may not be accurate

up for anything

marzic wrote: »

is there an echo in here?

Sorry for taking your best line!

Dudess

Currently in the news is the horrifically tragic case of Elaine Barrett who died as a result of a mess-up in the manufacturing of a formula for premature babies, which she was being administered.

phasers

mardybumbum wrote: »

If only it were that simple. What about a doctor that prescribes a wrong medication after working 36 hours straight and is half asleep?

Still Doctor's fault.

OutlawPete

What winds me up is when hospitals are clearly to blame for a child either dying or suffering brain damage due to doctor error and the hospital will go on to fight it for years and years, only to then settle on the steps of the court.

Why not save the parents the torment and accept this fact years before.

They will also make damn sure, that even though they have settled in the end, that the hospital and doctors are still not admitting responsibility for the child either dying or ending up so badly brain damaged that they need 24/7 care for the rest of their lives.

It's all about saving face for them at the end of the day and find that reprehensible.

recylingbin

We only left her alone to go out for dinner.
it's the police's fault and the weird guy with the scar.

sesna

Think parents want it everyway in that they don't want to pay for the doctor, or when they do go they whine and bltch about cost, yet at the same time expect to get every minor diagnostic test performed lest some obscure condition is not picked up.

The system is designed to pick up the most likely causes so that cost can be controlled. There will always be misdiagnoses in a small percentage of cases for which angry mammy sues for as much as she can get, feeling a horrible victim of circumstance

sesna

phasers wrote: »

Still Doctor's fault.

Simplistic view, 36 hours with no sleep is a major systematic failure. The airline industry has shown there is never just one factor contributing to an error. I would add the exception of gross negligence.

Dudess

sesna wrote: »

Think parents want it everyway in that they don't want to pay for the doctor, or when they do go they whine and bltch about cost, yet at the same time expect to get every minor diagnostic test performed lest some obscure condition is not picked up.

The system is designed to pick up the most likely causes so that cost can be controlled. There will always be misdiagnoses in a small percentage of cases for which angry mammy sues for as much as she can get, feeling a horrible victim of circumstance

A bit flippant if the child, for example, dies?

And I'm not unsympathetic to overworked, exhausted medical staff btw...

AskMyChocolate

Ask both the parents and the doctors to sit in a room with a video camera running and explain who was at fault. One set will refuse to do it. That's how you know who was wrong.

pickarooney

Anyone ever watch Bodies? Cracking series about medical malpractice.

lisaface

mardybumbum wrote: »

If only it were that simple. What about a doctor that prescribes a wrong medication after working 36 hours straight and is half asleep?

In my opinion, that's a poor choice for an example!

Nobody is saying risk your life and sleepless nights for others (Yes, I know this is the intended version of doctor on call) - if you find yourself falling asleep, surely the right MORAL thing (as a dr) & common sense is to GO HOME! - Sorry but YES if you prescribe the incorrect medication after deciding to ignore the fact you're falling asleep, and not connecting that lack of sleep could put you in a position where you MAY prescribe or diagnose someone the incorrect medication/ diagnostic, then yes, you should be blamed.

to OP , I'm not sure what case you are talking about, or is it a general question?
I've heard of cases before where the parents have blamed drs for their Children's death.

I recall a case a few months back, about a child who had some condition and it wasn't detected/picked up on by the hospital, so the family sued & got a fair bob from that practice/hospital. -- In fairness to that, I don't think that's right. Sometimes things need to progress further before they can be picked up on! And that child has not lost out on anything, and his parents/siblings have gained money, they shouldn't have.

I've only ever had one issue w/ a dr - no it wasn't life threatening but it did give me, an edge of lack of confidence in other drs since.
Last year 09 from nov of that to may of this year, I had continuing cough, cold, chest infection, throat infection, swine flu and normal flu. I went to my then dr and he kept giving me medication ( i complained about this and was told he knows best and it will all be gone within a week), that wasn't doing the job. I went back for a third time and asked for my bloods to be done, I waited 3 weeks (i contacted him in between the 3weeks) for my results, to NOT be told properly what was wrong with me. My virus' continued, and as a result I had missed lots of college (i have to repeat 2 mods) - I came down to my mums after my exams, and was still sick I went to the local dr here , only to be told you've got bronchitis and asthma and by the looks of things you've had these for months. ???? That pissed me off, the amount of money and effort I put in with this other dr, and it was like he didn't give a s*!t, even though he was being paid 80euro every visit.
According to that dr (mums local), if i hadn't gone to see him that day, my chest would have eventually gave in and collapsed (he told me 2-3days). I can understand from that view, why parents would blame a dr. Yes my case wasn't trivial but nov,dec,jan,feb,march,april and may (til may 18th to be exact!) it's no doubt people lack confidence in the medical team/individuals.

Before anybody pulls me up on it; it's easier to pick up on bronchitis/asthma after a chest xray (the dr didn't even bother his hole to even go down that route) and as for it progressing this dr had 7months on my chest progressing to find out what was wrong!!

steddyeddy

mardybumbum wrote: »

If only it were that simple. What about a doctor that prescribes a wrong medication after working 36 hours straight and is half asleep?

yea of course it is, you could say by that logic a parent up for 36 hours drops the child then it wouldnt be his fault

starbelgrade

pickarooney wrote: »

Anyone ever watch Bodies? Cracking series about medical malpractice.

There's Tv shows about medical students, TV shows about doctors, TV shows about nurses, TV shows about GPs.. and now TV shows about medical malpractice?

Holy crap. What next.. a TV show about chiropodists?

orourkeda

In fairness to some parents they have been correct and have been ignored as appears to have been the case in the recent case concerning the kidney removal.

It's perfectly normal to have questions and concerns but you just have to trust the professionals to do their jobs as best they can.

bigpink

Well if seems a doctors opinion can make them the cause of death

moonpurple

doctors bury their mistakes

ilovelamp2000

OutlawPete wrote: »

What winds me up is when hospitals are clearly to blame for a child either dying or suffering brain damage due to doctor error and the hospital will go on to fight it for years and years, only to then settle on the steps of the court.

Why not save the parents the torment and accept this fact years before.

They will also make damn sure, that even though they have settled in the end, that the hospital and doctors are still not admitting responsibility for the child either dying or ending up so badly brain damaged that they need 24/7 care for the rest of their lives.

It's all about saving face for them at the end of the day and find that reprehensible.

The hospital don't actually deal with the claims though Pete, the State Claims Agency manage medical negligence claims against hospitals :

http://www.stateclaims.ie/ClinicalIndemnityScheme/introduction.html

The State Claims Agency then nominate a solicitor to defend the case on their behalf. So it's between the defence solicitor and whoever in the State Claims Agency is instructing them to decide when a case should be settled or if it should be fought. The attitude to cases varies wildly depending on who is defending.


That said, it's no less a disgrace that they still force families to go through years of litigation to get a result that was obvious from the beginning.

mardybumbum

lisaface wrote: »

If you find yourself falling asleep, surely the right MORAL thing (as a dr) & common sense is to GO HOME!

I'm sure they would love to but I don't think its as easy a thing to do as you make out. In this country, if a doctor goes home they won't be replaced. It simply means theres one less in the hospital.
I shouldn't have used the word "fault" in my question to phasers. Technically, it is of course the doctors fault.
However, I was interested in knowing if phasers felt they were to blame?

Catari Jaguar

Colleague told me yesterday about a baby girl that had been born premature so was recommended this special dietary supplement or something. So they fed her this and she got severe brain damage, eventually dying aged 5 or 6. Turns out this baby food had 120 times the RDA of magnesium. Doctor's fault or food company's fault? Definitely not the parents in this case. One of the most tragic things I've ever heard. Oh, link here

Biggins

bigpink wrote: »

Look a death is not easy to take but surely blaming doctors and staff is wrong sometimes people cant be treated
And sometimes they cant find what is exactly wrong

...And sometimes they can!
...And sometimes they do screw-up.

People can be held accountable or at least called to question. Live with it.

Biggins

moonpurple wrote: »

doctors bury their mistakes

...And other doctors help!

tallaght01

mardybumbum wrote: »

I'm sure they would love to but I don't think its as easy a thing to do as you make out. In this country, if a doctor goes home they won't be replaced. It simply means theres one less in the hospital.
I shouldn't have used the word "fault" in my question to phasers. Technically, it is of course the doctors fault.
However, I was interested in knowing if phasers felt they were to blame?

Quite often when you qualify you're gonna be the only doc in the hospital (at least in your specialty) out of hours. So good luck with just heading home for a snooze Though they're supposed to have sorted that by the time you're qualified, as part of the EWTD, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
In fact, they were supposed to have sorted it out by the time I qualified, back in days of yore

mardybumbum

tallaght01 wrote: »

Quite often when you qualify you're gonna be the only doc in the hospital (at least in your specialty) out of hours. So good luck with just heading home for a snooze

Thats pretty much the point I was trying to make. :pac:
Anyhow, I might take a leaf from your book and get the hell out of here.

tallaght01

mardybumbum wrote: »

Thats pretty much the point I was trying to make. :pac:
Out with Harney and in with lisaface. All doctors can head home then for a nap when they feel tired. :rolleyes:
Anyhow, I might take a leaf from your book and get the hell out of here.

Get yourself to Oz, young un :P Come back when they implement the laws that have been passed elsewhere in Europe.

Having said that I'm in the middle of a stretch where I only have 2 days off in 5 weeks. And i have done a 1-in-3 24 hour shift (with normal dayshifts in between) here in Oz for months on end. But by and large that doesn't happen any more.

I used to work in Africa, and in some wards the docs work less than the guys in ireland I'm going to work in a pretty poor Asian hospital next year, and the conditions they've described to me only seem marginally worse than Tallaght hospital

It's a shame so many of us have to emigrate. I miss the oul family a lot. But I'm lucky in that I will be working outside the HSE, so I'm going back to Ireland in 2 years.

But you should at least do the really horrible years (SHO and junior reg) overseas, or you'll just never have any kind of existence.

opinion guy

phasers wrote: »

Still Doctor's fault.

Ok phasers - how is it still the doctors fault if they are forced to work illegal hours ?

lisaface wrote: »

Nobody is saying risk your life and sleepless nights for others (Yes, I know this is the intended version of doctor on call) - if you find yourself falling asleep, surely the right MORAL thing (as a dr) & common sense is to GO HOME! - Sorry but YES if you prescribe the incorrect medication after deciding to ignore the fact you're falling asleep, and not connecting that lack of sleep could put you in a position where you MAY prescribe or diagnose someone the incorrect medication/ diagnostic, then yes, you should be blamed.

Lisaface how can they go home if noone will replace them ? How can they go home if all of their colleagues and bosses put pressure on them and guilt them to stay ?

drkpower

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok phasers - how is it still the doctors fault if they are forced to work illegal hours ?

Unfortunately, it still is, or at least partly. Morally, there is a strong argument the doctor is not at fault, of course, but legally, if you continue to treat despite being 'forced' to work illlegal hours in bad conditions, you continue to owe a duty to your patient. Of course, if you pack up & go home for a kip, you may also be legally responsible. I think its what they call a Catch 22.

opinion guy

drkpower wrote: »

Unfortunately, it still is, or at least partly. Morally, there is a strong argument the doctor is not at fault, of course, but legally, if you continue to treat despite being 'forced' to work illlegal hours in bad conditions, you continue to owe a duty to your patient. Of course, if you pack up & go home for a kip, you may also be legally responsible. I think its what they call a Catch 22.

Indeed.
I wonder does informed consent play a role here?
Should surgeons be saying to patients "I'll remove your appendix, these are the risks X,Y,Z. You should also be aware I have been working for the last 48hours straight and this may represent an additional risk factor. Alternatively you may wait until tomorrow when I have slept but you may suffer serious complications in the mean time including death. Well, whats your decision ?"

ILA

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/garda-and-family-facing-down-barrel-of-gun-in-cancer-tragedy-2253366.html

'Nuff said

drkpower

opinion guy wrote: »

Indeed.
I wonder does informed consent play a role here?
Should surgeons be saying to patients "I'll remove your appendix, these are the risks X,Y,Z. You should also be aware I have been working for the last 48hours straight and this may represent an additional risk factor. Alternatively you may wait until tomorrow when I have slept but you may suffer serious complications in the mean time including death. Well, whats your decision ?"

Interesting option!
Technically, it does shift some culpability to the patient who could be said to have voluntarily assumed the additional risk of a tired doctor; on the flip side, such an admission of tiredness and resultant potential inadequacy could be viewed as an immediate admission of liability if anything did go wrong!! So, eh, neither are ideal!

Of course, practically, the confidence patients have and must have in their doctor would be seriously damaged if every tired/exhausted/dead on their feet gave that kind of warning.

Chuchoter

I think only in very rare circumstances can you blame the doctor. I mean I know doctors are not infallible, but they do a job with a hell of a lot of responsibility that involves life and death. People make mistakes at their jobs. Thats life. Thats different now from someone like Dr.Neary, who just did whatever the hell he liked and never apologized.

Also, to all the people saying if they're tired they should sleep and its their fault if they hurt someone because they are tired, thats not fair. The system we have going at the moment means that if you leave to sleep, well then thats 1 less doctor on the A&E and thats that. Thats why you have heavily pregnant/sick/student doctors treating people because they are all thats there. Its either an exhausted doctor or no doctor.

opinion guy

drkpower wrote: »

Interesting option!
Technically, it does shift some culpability to the patient who could be said to have voluntarily assumed the additional risk of a tired doctor; on the flip side, such an admission of tiredness and resultant potential inadequacy could be viewed as an immediate admission of liability if anything did go wrong!! So, eh, neither are ideal!

Of course, practically, the confidence patients have and must have in their doctor would be seriously damaged if every tired/exhausted/dead on their feet gave that kind of warning.

Drkpower i know you are in law - what do you thin doctors should do ?

drkpower

opinion guy wrote: »

Drkpower i know you are in law - what do you thin doctors should do ?

Legally? Not much they can do.

The system needs to change; Im of the same view I was 10 years ago - strike until a legally binding agreement is given on hours or until punitive rates are instituted for excessive hours (ie. triple time over 65 hours, quadruple over 75, and so on) so that it becomes a financial imperative to change.

opinion guy

drkpower wrote: »

Legally? Not much they can do.

The system needs to change; Im of the same view I was 10 years ago - strike until a legally binding agreement is given on hours or until punitive rates are instituted for excessive hours (ie. triple time over 65 hours, quadruple over 75, and so on) so that it becomes a financial imperative to change.

I thought there was a legally binding agreement on hours already ?

drkpower

opinion guy wrote: »

I thought there was a legally binding agreement on hours already ? Its just singularly ignored

What agreement is in place? And what are the penalties for non-compliance?

I probably should have said effective legal agreement; ie. something with immediately invoked penalty provisions. A legal obligation without teeth isnt worth sh!t.

tallaght01

drkpower wrote: »

What agreement is in place? And what are the penalties for non-compliance?

I probably should have said effective legal agreement; ie. something with immediately invoked penalty provisions. A legal obligation without teeth isnt worth sh!t.

EWTD limits doctors working hours. But the govt just pays the fines for breaking it, as it's cheaper than hiring enough docs.