Are the big 3 enough?

showmetheway

If one was to just do bench press, deadlift and squats would it be enough to have a balanced physique?

Mr. Loverman

Well you wouldn't really have any biceps so to nearly everyone in the world it'd look like you have an unbalanced physique.

God damn you bicep freaks making me have to do bicep curls to look "normal".

Chris89

Throw in some sort of pull, chinups or a row of some kind and I'd say that would be just fine.

showmetheway

are the olympic lifts like power cleans and the clean and snatch necessary, what benefit do these offer and what would I be missing without these?

colman1212

Bench press
squat
deadlift
military press
chin ups dips

d'Oracle

Oly lifts aren't necessary.
But they are good.

They help you develop explosive hip extension and depending on how you do them they can build up your traps.
They also give you a hell of a gas for low reps.

If you are only doing them for this effect then there isn't much need to do both. The power clean or clean should do. Its also handy for getting the bar up for overhead pressing if you don't have a rack available. I have heard one coach say he does snatches to teach the proper jump then only do cleans from there on.

Not that the olympic lifts are the only way to develop explosive extension.



On your original query, no. If you only bench you will probably screw your shoulders. That is why good coaches recommend vertical presses and both vertical and horizontal pulls.

So Squat, deadlift, Bench, overhead press, chins, rows.

brianthebard

colman1212 wrote: »

Bench press
squat
deadlift
military press
chin ups dips

triceps accessory
hamstring accessories (at least two)
rear delt accessory
lateral delt accesory(while we're at it)
biceps curl variation
rows
unilateral work
core stability, obliques, and/or anti-rotational movements.

squod

showmetheway wrote: »

If one was to just do bench press, deadlift and squats would it be enough to have a balanced physique?

No. Pull ups and some extra core work minimum.

ray jay

d'Oracle wrote: »

So Squat, deadlift, Bench, overhead press, chins, rows.

this plus maybe some sit ups if you like

d'Oracle

ray jay wrote: »

this plus maybe some sit ups if you like

I don't like...:D

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

Oly lifts aren't necessary.
But they are good.

True.

They help you develop explosive hip extension and depending on how you do them they can build up your traps.

In the quiet words of the virgin Mary... come again?

This hasn't changed in 100 years:
Upper body:
Push
Pull
Lower body:
Push
Pull

Will Heffernan

showmetheway wrote: »

If one was to just do bench press, deadlift and squats would it be enough to have a balanced physique?

You see a lot of these sort of questions here...I always just cross my fingers and hope that it is people just wanting to promote or initiate discussion. The answer to the question is yes...kind of...but the important thing to note is why the hell would you want to restrict yourself to just the three lifts?

Doug Cartel

Will Heffernan wrote: »

...but the important thing to note is why the hell would you want to restrict yourself to just the three lifts?

Perhaps if you're stuck for time?

Hypothetically, and I just mean hypothetically here, say you were a brain surgen/movie star who runs a Fortune 500 company and also fights crime at night. You're a very busy guy, but you need to get some strength training done as well. Could you get away with three sessions a week where you just do a quick warm-up, your big lift and then, *bam* you're out of there.

Mr. Loverman

squod wrote: »

...and some extra core work minimum.

Does he really need extra core work?

Squats and deadlifts work your core pretty good...

brianthebard

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Does he really need extra core work?

Squats and deadlifts work your core pretty good...

yeah he does.

Brian?

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Perhaps if you're stuck for time?

Hypothetically, and I just mean hypothetically here, say you were a brain surgen/movie star who runs a Fortune 500 company and also fights crime at night. You're a very busy guy, but you need to get some strength training done as well. Could you get away with three sessions a week where you just do a quick warm-up, your big lift and then, *bam* you're out of there.

I reckon you just tool hypothetical questions to a whole new level.

If you're in that much of a hurry you easily superset with whichever of the big 3 you are doing, bench/gh raises. squat/chins, deadlift/shoulder press or whatever. Not ideal but there you go.

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

In the quiet words of the virgin Mary... come again?

This hasn't changed in 100 years:
Upper body:
Push
Pull
Lower body:
Push
Pull

Sorry bout that.
Which bit is the problem for you?

I know you know what I mean.
And you could probably explain better.

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

Sorry bout that.
Which bit is the problem for you?

I know you know what I mean.
And you could probably explain better.

I'm not sure why you write in Haiku when you post, but write very coherently when you pm...

I'm wondering what you mean by "explosive hip extension" and why you think someone needs it. It somewhat muddies the waters when we're talking about bare bones lifting.

That being said, I'll explain better, but I don't know how I can make it simpler. Perhaps a list might help though:

Upper body:
Push- bench press, military press, incline bench press, single arm press, push up, push press, jerk, arnold press....
Pull- inverted row, chin up, pull up, neutral grip pull up, dumbell row, barbell row, partner row, kettlebell row, upright row...

Lower body
Push- squat, single leg squat, leg press, split squat, box squat...
Pull- deadlift, single leg deadlift, sumo deadlift, suitcase deadlift...

... and countless other exercises too numerous to list. I think Will's point is that all of the above are just variations on the one theme. His question being why limit yourself to benching, squatting and deadlifting when you are basically doing the exact same thing with the other exercises. You could have a far more stimulating (mentally and physically) training experience if you added variation. I say fair play to a guy who just benches, squats and deadlifts everyday and still makes progress because he is a better man than I. I would be bored out of my tree.

As for assistance, be it trunk/core, hamstring, calves or gunzzz. Yes you do need them but I would never get bogged down in how many I can do. For me they're mayo and the push/pulls above are the beef, the bacon and the sesame seed bun.

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I'm not sure why you write in Haiku when you post, but write very coherently when you pm...

I'm wondering what you mean by "explosive hip extension" and why you think someone needs it. It somewhat muddies the waters when we're talking about bare bones lifting.

That being said, I'll explain better, but I don't know how I can make it simpler. Perhaps a list might help though:

Upper body:
Push- bench press, military press, incline bench press, single arm press, push up, push press, jerk, arnold press....
Pull- inverted row, chin up, pull up, neutral grip pull up, dumbell row, barbell row, partner row, kettlebell row, upright row...

Lower body
Push- squat, single leg squat, leg press, split squat, box squat...
Pull- deadlift, single leg deadlift, sumo deadlift, suitcase deadlift...

Its not intentional, I just sort of use short phrases. I have never thought of it as Haiku.

I didn't say anybody needs explosive hip extension.
I just said thats what oly lifts do.

As for what its is. Well by Hip extension I mean moving from a position of flexed hips, (i.e. with the ass back, hips unlocked and knees bent) to extended hips (i.e. Hips locked or open, knees locked, ass to a neutral position....basically upright).

I'd venture to say that you probably don't like the word explosive word cos of some of the fitness industry connotations with using it. I wouldn't blame you, but I could be wrong here.

By explosive I mean fast and hard, developing the means to impart force at higher velocities (more power generated at the hips). Meaning more work output in the given time.

If you start at a max power clean of 60kg and progress onto 100kg then you have improved your ability to generate force using hip extension. Theoretically of course.

I reckon that this has lots practical uses though. I imagine being able to extend the hips quickly and impart great force can help in a lot of things. Tackling in rugby, Jumping, lifting heavy obects above the level of full arm extension, maybe even take downs in MMA. ( You are gonna get me over that one, aren't you...)

Now I don't want to think I'm telling you anything about coaching. Heaven forbid. I was Barry's Pleb bitch last week. It's someone else's turn this week. But out of curiosity:

How do you define push and pull?

The only definition I have come across is Rips definition of a push being when the weight is supported over the scapula and a pull being when the weight is supported below the scapula, with the vertical axis positive when perpendicular to the plane of the soles of the feet and in the direction of the head? (this definition was necessary to accommodate the leg press.)

Would this not make a full clean both a pull and a push?

Also does this not make a clean and snatch a pull but a jerk a push, whilst all involving hip extension at high rate of output (explosive hip extension)?

rubadub

d'Oracle wrote: »

How do you define push and pull?

+1 the upper body ones made sense to me, but the lower body ones confuse me.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Lower body
Push- squat, single leg squat, leg press, split squat, box squat...
Pull- deadlift, single leg deadlift, sumo deadlift, suitcase deadlift...

What would a trap bar deadlift be classed as, I would guess a pull but many people call it a hybrid of squat and deadlift so it seems the only "pull" is with your arms and not legs. Since it is meant to be the lower body then should the pull/push not be referring only to the legs -e.g. if you did a trap bar deadlift it might be called a pull but if you had some fancy bar on your shoulders with weights in the same position as the trap bar it is suddenly called a push, even though your legs experience pretty much the same thing, and I would call it pushing.

Does anybody do actual pulling exercises with the legs. This is one I could consider a pull.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj2Dft1bV-w

Or you could have weights attached to your feet, or some straps so you could be pulling up weights with your feet.

I would guess a GHR is pulling.

Barry.Oglesby

I just knew that once I explained a bit further, people would miss the point.

Simplicity.

The people in the gym who are lifting twice as much as you, who run faster than you, who are doing all of this stuff so they can better perform on the pitch, court or track don't give a damn about all this. But since you do, I'll add in 3 footnotes.

1. for "pushing", sub in quad dominant
2. for "pulling", sub in hip dominant
3. We can use the trap bar either way depending on coaching

Anything else you need to ask, you can come ask at the open day which is a far better setting for questions like this.

Chris89

I would have thought it quite obvious that a squat is a push and a deadlift is a pull.

Transform

any 3-5 major lifts will work for a while but even then that needs to be changed up.

Plus if you have imbalances, mobility issues etc you will most likely have to isolate first so you can integrate them into the big compounds later

dartstothesea

Purely on the aesthetic side of things I think you would want something other than the big 3 to build calves, maybe that's just my sick calf fetish talking though.

Mellor

Chris89 wrote: »

I would have thought it quite obvious that a squat is a push and a deadlift is a pull.

Yes, but you legs are still pushing, ie extending, its your upper body that is pulling in deadlifting.
Which is why hip/quad dominant describes lower body better

Barry.Oglesby

Mellor wrote: »

Yes, but you legs are still pushing, ie extending, its your upper body that is pulling in deadlifting.
Which is why hip/quad dominant describes lower body better

I cannot believe my attempt to simplify has developed into yet another pedantic discussion.

Doug Cartel

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I cannot believe my attempt to simplify has developed into yet another pedantic discussion.

You must be new to the internet. Welcome.

d'Oracle

I haven't read anything here which has made me even remote change my mind.

My initial use of the phrase "explosive hip extension" as sensational as it may sound, still works for me.

There is such a thing as over-simplification.

brianthebard

+1. The irony of someone starting a debate on an issue of semantics then complaining about others pedantry should not be lost either.

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

I haven't read anything here which has made me even remote change my mind.

About what? About which is pushing and which is pulling? Who has been trying to change your mind?

My initial use of the phrase "explosive hip extension" as sensational as it may sound, still works for me.

Fabulous. Feel free to continue using it, but it really doesn't work for me. If hip extension was what we were looking for then I would have my guys do explosive weighted porn thrusts all day. What we're actually looking for is triple extension when we're talking about power work. I don't expect people to understand this any more than I expect to understand mathematics or how to bake a flan, but I would expect non-categorical and unsubstantiated statements such as yours to be put in the realm of "opinion" rather than fact.

There is such a thing as over-simplification.

Yes there is. There's also such a thing as people being bored in work and just typing to keep themselves amused while arguing over what's pulling, what's pushing and so on.

A footballer who trains with us, D, is coming in later and he'll ask what his session is. If he's told "power" he'll go and do it. Strength, he'll go and do that. I don't think I've ever once heard him ask "why?" and yet still he manages to bury everyone who trains with him. People think too much, they have too much time on their hands and access to too much ****ty half baked information. They don't seem to realise that when they're reading the internet, they're reading cleverly disguised advertisements, not facts.

Go close to home; Look at the usernames on this forum who have the best "big 3" and ask them if they're worried what constitutes the definition of pulling or pushing or hip extension or whatever. Then look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're getting bogged down in semantics.

rubadub

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

yet another pedantic discussion.

I don't think it is pedantic at all, I am genuinely interested in what it means when people talk of push & pull exercises, I never knew before. Pedantic would be saying "whats this military press you mention? my mate is in the army and never heard of it".

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

There's also such a thing as people being bored in work and just typing to keep themselves amused while arguing over what's pulling, what's pushing and so on.

Its not really arguing, more trying to understand better what it being recommended, and then questioning what constitutes it as I found it confusing and seemed to contradict itself.

I have had to explain the difference between hard & tough as engineering terms to people, I do not get upset about it and call them bored pedants, they might not agree with the terms in the engineering sense but at least they are now singing off the same hymn sheet.

I don't think I've ever once heard him ask "why?" and yet still he manages to bury everyone who trains with him. People think too much,.

I like to think, I like to understand why I am being instructed to do something, it can make things more rewarding to do and I can come up with my own ideas or suggest other things which might suit me, I am more likely to do something if I understand it is worthwhile.

I really hate it when people who do not ask why they are being told to do something, and just blindly follow it, I despise "do as your told" teachers/instructors. I have to write instruction manuals for building machines for workers in my job, they are littered with explanations as to why they are doing what they do, what to watch out for, what NOT to do, and the importance of certain items. -otherwise they can neglect to do it or come up with alternatives -also since they do have an understanding of what they are doing they will often come up with suggestions on how to do it better, or ask if they can do it another way.

usernames on this forum who have the best "big 3" and ask them if they're worried what constitutes the definition of pulling or pushing or hip extension or whatever

It's not really a worry, I hope they would have a passing interest in trying to understand what everybody is talking about if they did not already know. -and not just sit by dumbly without clarification.

Barry.Oglesby

rubadub wrote: »

I don't think it is pedantic at all, I am genuinely interested in what it means when people talk of push & pull exercises, I never knew before. Pedantic would be saying "whats this military press you mention? my mate is in the army and never heard of it".

Its not really arguing, more trying to understand better what it being recommended, and then questioning what constitutes it as I found it confusing and seemed to contradict itself.

Please, can I have a show of hands here:

Was anyone else confused as to what is pushing away from you, and what is pulling towards you?

I have had to explain the difference between hard & tough as engineering terms to people, I do not get upset about it and call them bored pedants, they might not agree with the terms in the engineering sense but at least they are now singing off the same hymn sheet.

Seriously. Seriously now. Are the words "pulling" and "pushing" really so close in definition as to require further explanation.

I like to think, I like to understand why I am being instructed to do something, it can make things more rewarding to do and I can come up with my own ideas or suggest other things which might suit me, I am more likely to do something if I understand it is worthwhile.

Well what you've actually done is come up with an obscure exercise to complicate something simple. In any case I was aiming my remarks towards d'Oracle but if the glove fits, walk a mile in my shoes.

I really hate it when people who do not ask why they are being told to do something, and just blindly follow it

Then you would despise everyone successful who I've coached.

I despise "do as your told" teachers/instructors.

Then you would despise me.

I have to write instruction manuals for building machines for workers in my job, they are littered with explanations as to why they are doing what they do, what to watch out for, what NOT to do, and the importance of certain items. -otherwise they can neglect to do it or come up with alternatives -also since they do have an understanding of what they are doing they will often come up with suggestions on how to do it better, or ask if they can do it another way.

The analogy doesn't apply. That's their job. When someone comes to us they pay us money to do their thinking for them. When they do that, they get results. When they don't do that, they fart around with rep ranges and programming and super-slow and explosive work and oly lifting and WODs and mobility work and foam rolling and stretching and bodyweight work only and ATG squatting and westside and 5-3-1 and stronglifts and then at the end of that they've spent €€€€ and have nothing but a head full of mostly useless information.

rubadub

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Seriously. Seriously now. Are the words "pulling" and "pushing" really so close in definition as to require further explanation.

Yes, -in the case of the lower body (I already said I understood the upperbody ones).

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Was anyone else confused as to what is pushing away from you, and what is pulling towards you?

My feet are pushing away from me, so the confusion was introduced when I was then informed that this sometimes might be classed as "pulling".

A quick search on google shows others have confusion too, e.g. I see debates on whether front squats are quad/hip dominant.

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

The analogy doesn't apply. That's their job. When someone comes to us they pay us money to do their thinking for them.

When I am taught something I like to come away able to teach others, and realise exactly why things work the way they do and the importance of doing them. Give a man a fish -teach a man to fish....

Hanley

Wait.... are front squats a pulling exercise now?

Do back squats become a pull when you sit back and engage the p-chain more, but an oly squat's a push because it's more quad dominant. FML my training's fcuked now.

I JUST WANT TO KNOOOOOOOOW.

Barry.Oglesby

Hanley wrote: »

Wait.... are front squats a pulling exercise now?

Do back squats become a pull when you sit back and engage the p-chain more, but an oly squat's a push because it's more quad dominant. FML my training's fcuked now.

I JUST WANT TO KNOOOOOOOOW.

Expect your deadlift numbers to drop now. Probably the squat too.

Will Heffernan

I've just read this this thread and I suppose I realise why people think I am such a prick.

rubadub wrote: »

Yes, -in the case of the lower body (I already said I understood the upperbody ones).

Now all we need to do is to come up with a snappy three letter acronym and we can market a whole new training system.

My feet are pushing away from me, so the confusion was introduced when I was then informed that this sometimes might be classed as "pulling".

I'm actually trying to work out now whether that was a joke or not. I read that at first and thought...that's brilliant as I laughed and then realised that you might actually be saying that seriously...which made me want to cry a little.

A quick search on google shows others have confusion too, e.g. I see debates on whether front squats are quad/hip dominant.

Yes...the internet is full of people that are essentially clueless all repeating bits and pieces of information that they read elsewhere on the internet that they didn't understand when they read it but that looked cool at the time.

When I am taught something I like to come away able to teach others, and realise exactly why things work the way they do and the importance of doing them. Give a man a fish -teach a man to fish....

See this is the problem...this forum is full of people that want to teach others to fish when they really should just stick to going to Leo Burdock's.

Hanley

Will Heffernan wrote: »

See this is the problem...this forum is full of people that want to teach others to fish when they really should just stick to going to Leo Burdock's.

This.

When people think they "get" something they started fcuking about with it and almost always make a balls of it and get nowhere.

COH

Just f*cking lift it

rubadub

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I'm actually trying to work out now whether that was a joke or not.

Barry was saying trap bar deadlifts could be either push or pull, which I found interesting. I find it really odd that you cannot see how I could be confused about the subject, I hope you have stopped crying now.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Yes...the internet is full of people that are essentially clueless all repeating bits and pieces of information that they read elsewhere on the internet that they didn't understand when they read it but that looked cool at the time.

And if people do not understand something, do you advise them to shut their mouth or actually seek an explanation as to what is really being said? I do not like going away confused after reading something. I don't understand what the big deal is about a simple request for clarification on something even, if it turns out to be a relatively unimportant point.

People hear one thing and can misapply it elsewhere and state it as fact if they do not realise what circumstances it holds true for, if they have a firm understanding of the subject they are less likely to make mistakes. I have heard yourself make statements about thermodynamics which I disagreed with, and in other threads I have seen you self righteously tell people if you say something it is definitely correct.

Will Heffernan wrote: »

this forum is full of people that want to teach others to fish

That could be said about 99% of forums, thats sort of the point of them. Who should be given permission to give advice? Thats if people even dare to ask.

I like to tell people the reasoning behind instructions, I do not want a lad in work coming up to me with his finger cut off and me saying "so now do you understand why I said stand to the left side using that sander". I strongly encourage people I train to question me, no matter how insignificant the answer may end up being. I often get them to teach another person right afterwards so I can see if they did grasp everything I wanted to get across.

Hanley wrote: »

When people think they "get" something they started fcuking about with it and almost always make a balls of it and get nowhere.

"almost always" -every once in a while somebody can think outside the box and come up with new ideas, rather than stick with the old tried & tested methods -these people do get it, maybe a deeper understanding of it than the person who taught them it.

I am not too mad about the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. On numerous forums I have seen other members develop ideas which are unheard of in textbooks on the subjects. Personally I have developed distillation equipment and a microbiological sterilization technique both of which several qualified chemical engineers & mycologists were saying would not work (I'm a mechanical engineer). In my job I have numerous broken in-house design "rules" and have made huge savings & improvements by not following carrying on the same limitations the previous designers stuck to. I really hate to see people discouraging thinking.

Hanley

rubadub wrote: »

"almost always" -every once in a while somebody can think outside the box and come up with new ideas, rather than stick with the old tried & tested methods -these people do get it, maybe a deeper understanding of it than the person who taught them it.

Yes.... that's my point. People try to come up with something new when they don't understand what they're doing or trying to achieve. That's the majority of the people who post here.

Then there's the guy who does get it and revolutionizes (??) the field, like Louie Simmons. For every guy who gets it right, a whole heap of others get it wrong.

I am not too mad about the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. On numerous forums I have seen other members develop ideas which are unheard of in textbooks on the subjects. Personally I have developed distillation equipment and a microbiological sterilization technique both of which several qualified chemical engineers & mycologists were saying would not work (I'm a mechanical engineer). In my job I have numerous broken in-house design "rules" and have made huge savings & improvements by not following carrying on the same limitations the previous designers stuck to. I really hate to see people discouraging thinking.

You could say you're an "expert" in your field right? So it's no surprise that you come up with new stuff. You're the guy with a deeper understanding. Obviously you got there thru logical thinking, practice and analysis of your results. Honestly, well done on that. I love seeing achievement in anything.

But that's not the majority of people here. They ask questions, argue semantics, mentally masturbate but never actually try anything for long enough to evaluate the results. Hell that's most internet forums.

They're so concerned with searching for the Holy Grail and sounding like an expert, that they never even get started. Everyone wants to bark like the big dog, but no one has the balls for the fight, if you want to put it that way.

I'm actually nothing thinking of anyone specifically, but it's something that really bugs the fcuk out of me on here. I don't really bother posting long or detailed explanations to anything anymore because there's always a hole you can pick somewhere in anything, and people always zero in on that, so why bother?

One of my best mates started training with me a while ago, he benched bodyweight in under 2 months with no prior training, he's pulled 1.5x bodyweight so far and squatted > bodyweight for reps at this stage. He listened to me, did what I said, shut up and worked. He knew that I knew what I was talking about, and got his results. He's an architect and loves analyzing stuff - now he's asking questions and figuring out stuff for himself. I still program for him, but he's making suggestions and coming up with his own ideas too, some good and some bad. But he's learning.

Malteaser who used to post here is the same. She listened, worked and got results. Then she started to analyze and tinker. She's almost as good a technical coach on PL stuff now as me because of it.

My point - There's nothing wrong with asking questions if you apply the answer. I'll sit here and talk to people all day about it. I'd say Will and Barry are the same. But FFS if you're just gonna argue technicalities and semantics, leave me the fcuk alone and go do some actual training (not you specifically, the general "you").

Chris89

I think people who show a bit of curiosity get a very hard time on here.

Obviously just lifting heavy and eating more will solve most peoples problems, but if youre not willing to share your knowledge, then at least be polite about it and stop painting everyone with the same brush.

Hanley

Hanley wrote: »

Yes.... that's my point. People try to come up with something new when they don't understand what they're doing or trying to achieve. That's the majority of the people who post here.

Then there's the guy who does get it and revolutionizes (??) the field, like Louie Simmons. For every guy who gets it right, a whole heap of others get it wrong.



You could say you're an "expert" in your field right? So it's no surprise that you come up with new stuff. You're the guy with a deeper understanding. Obviously you got there thru logical thinking, practice and analysis of your results. Honestly, well done on that. I love seeing achievement in anything.

But that's not the majority of people here. They ask questions, argue semantics, mentally masturbate but never actually try anything for long enough to evaluate the results. Hell that's most internet forums.

They're so concerned with searching for the Holy Grail and sounding like an expert, that they never even get started. Everyone wants to bark like the big dog, but no one has the balls for the fight, if you want to put it that way.

I'm actually nothing thinking of anyone specifically, but it's something that really bugs the fcuk out of me on here. I don't really bother posting long or detailed explanations to anything anymore because there's always a hole you can pick somewhere in anything, and people always zero in on that, so why bother?

One of my best mates started training with me a while ago, he benched bodyweight in under 2 months with no prior training, he's pulled 1.5x bodyweight so far and squatted > bodyweight for reps at this stage. He listened to me, did what I said, shut up and worked. He knew that I knew what I was talking about, and got his results. He's an architect and loves analyzing stuff - now he's asking questions and figuring out stuff for himself. I still program for him, but he's making suggestions and coming up with his own ideas too, some good and some bad. But he's learning.

Malteaser who used to post here is the same. She listened, worked and got results. Then she started to analyze and tinker. She's almost as good a technical coach on PL stuff now as me because of it.

My point - There's nothing wrong with asking questions if you apply the answer. I'll sit here and talk to people all day about it. I'd say Will and Barry are the same. But FFS if you're just gonna argue technicalities and semantics, leave me the fcuk alone and go do some actual training (not you specifically, the general "you").

Actually sh!t, look at gymfreak's most recent post in her log. She's another one that "gets" it.

d'Oracle

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

About what? About which is pushing and which is pulling? Who has been trying to change your mind?

Fabulous. Feel free to continue using it, but it really doesn't work for me. If hip extension was what we were looking for then I would have my guys do explosive weighted porn thrusts all day. What we're actually looking for is triple extension when we're talking about power work. I don't expect people to understand this any more than I expect to understand mathematics or how to bake a flan, but I would expect non-categorical and unsubstantiated statements such as yours to be put in the realm of "opinion" rather than fact.

Yes there is. There's also such a thing as people being bored in work and just typing to keep themselves amused while arguing over what's pulling, what's pushing and so on.

A footballer who trains with us, D, is coming in later and he'll ask what his session is. If he's told "power" he'll go and do it. Strength, he'll go and do that. I don't think I've ever once heard him ask "why?" and yet still he manages to bury everyone who trains with him. People think too much, they have too much time on their hands and access to too much ****ty half baked information. They don't seem to realise that when they're reading the internet, they're reading cleverly disguised advertisements, not facts.

Go close to home; Look at the usernames on this forum who have the best "big 3" and ask them if they're worried what constitutes the definition of pulling or pushing or hip extension or whatever. Then look in the mirror and ask yourself if you're getting bogged down in semantics.

I'm not even sure why you are going on about it.
I mean who the hell are you preaching to?
I don't care how you define stuff, I don't care how much the people who lift more than me think about stuff.

You asked, in as smarmy a manner as possible, for me to explain what I meant and I did. Then you went off on one again, talking about internet and selling stuff. If you have a better answer to the guys question, why the hell can't you just give it? Why is everything a beatdown for you?

So next time, spare me, find someone else to be your bitch.
I just don't care what you have to say, if you are only looking for some internet win.

Edit: Whats worse is I let him get to me.

Barry.Oglesby

Chris89 wrote: »

I think people who show a bit of curiosity get a very hard time on here.

Obviously just lifting heavy and eating more will solve most peoples problems, but if youre not willing to share your knowledge, then at least be polite about it and stop painting everyone with the same brush.

Quiet you!

BossArky

......

back on topic - so are the big 3 enough?

Hanley

BossArky wrote: »

......

back on topic - so are the big 3 enough?

No.

Will Heffernan

I'll try to do both....get things back 'on topic' and reply simultaneously.

rubadub wrote: »

Barry was saying trap bar deadlifts could be either push or pull, which I found interesting. I find it really odd that you cannot see how I could be confused about the subject, I hope you have stopped crying now.

A trapbar deadlift can be both...that's one of the reasons I like it...I can deadlift it..or pull it...or I can 'non spinal loaded' squat it...or push it.

It was only one tiny solitary tear that trickled down my face silently.

And if people do not understand something, do you advise them to shut their mouth or actually seek an explanation as to what is really being said? I do not like going away confused after reading something. I don't understand what the big deal is about a simple request for clarification on something even, if it turns out to be a relatively unimportant point.

This seems completely unrelated to the 'quote' you were replying to? I'll just assume it's a statement.

People hear one thing and can misapply it elsewhere and state it as fact if they do not realise what circumstances it holds true for, if they have a firm understanding of the subject they are less likely to make mistakes.

Once again...this seems to be a statement completely unrelated to the 'quote' you were replying to?

I have heard yourself make statements about thermodynamics which I disagreed with, and in other threads I have seen you self righteously tell people if you say something it is definitely correct.

Ohhhh I can taste the bitterness...I handed you your ass in some discussion here didn't I? Which one was it?

Where exactly did I misapply the laws of thermodynamics? That sounds like a way more interesting discussion than this one?

In all the threads I've posted in and all the major discussions that I've been involved in...can you please point to a single post where I've been shown to be wrong? Point to an argument I've lost? the reason that I can tell people that if I say something that it's correct is because it is true. Unlike you I don't talk and discuss things that I don't understand. We're not equals here...that's a fantasy.

What you think is self righteousness is actually just self assuredness...you make me laugh...fitness is your hobby...and it's a great hobby...it's my profession. I've done it at the highest levels for over 20 years...do you not get that? Do you think all that study...all those years working day in with athletes and clients and other professional coaches counts for nothing? Do you actually think we are having a discussion as if we're peers? Do you see me posting in engineering forums...giving my views on microbiological sterilisation...do you have an idea of how stupid that would make me appear to you? This is actually one of the funniest and most ridiculous posts I've seen here on this forum.

That could be said about 99% of forums, thats sort of the point of them. Who should be given permission to give advice? Thats if people even dare to ask.

I know...I love forums...I read a lot of them and post in very few. I like this forum and I take an active part in it because some of my members do and because people have come from boards to join my gym.

I like answering questions and giving advice...when I see really dumb advice I try to point it out....most of it I let slide...most of it gets picked up by other posters here..there are heaps of really good, really well informed people here giving advice. I don't have any problem with that...there are other posters here that just like to be a-holes and are looking to start fights or are just bored and feel like messing...that's fine too...each to their own.

I like to tell people the reasoning behind instructions, I do not want a lad in work coming up to me with his finger cut off and me saying "so now do you understand why I said stand to the left side using that sander". I strongly encourage people I train to question me, no matter how insignificant the answer may end up being. I often get them to teach another person right afterwards so I can see if they did grasp everything I wanted to get across.

"almost always" -every once in a while somebody can think outside the box and come up with new ideas, rather than stick with the old tried & tested methods -these people do get it, maybe a deeper understanding of it than the person who taught them it.

Good for you.

I am not too mad about the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. On numerous forums I have seen other members develop ideas which are unheard of in textbooks on the subjects. Personally I have developed distillation equipment and a microbiological sterilization technique both of which several qualified chemical engineers & mycologists were saying would not work (I'm a mechanical engineer). In my job I have numerous broken in-house design "rules" and have made huge savings & improvements by not following carrying on the same limitations the previous designers stuck to. I really hate to see people discouraging thinking.

That ain't happening here. Even stating that only further shows just how little perspective you have.

As for the Big 3...if you look at any athletic success story or even any whacky training method 'spokesperson/role model' if you scratch the surface you'll find the Big 3 with some pull ups and some overhead pressing right below the surface

Barry.Oglesby

d'Oracle wrote: »

I'm not even sure why you are going on about it.
I mean who the hell are you preaching to?

No one in particular. Oh, wait. You.

I don't care how you define stuff, I don't care how much the people who lift more than me think about stuff.

Well maybe that's one of the problems. You should probably have a look at that and start to care slightly. Not about me, I have lots more people ignore me all the time.

You asked, in as smarmy a manner as possible, for me to explain what I meant and I did.

Smarmy? Smarmy? Smarmy? Well if that was smarmy then smarm me up baby I'm a smarmer.

Then you went off on one again, talking about internet and selling stuff. If you have a better answer to the guys question, why the hell can't you just give it? Why is everything a beatdown for you?

Well I sure hope whatever your stimulant of choice was that it's worn off so you can go back and read what I wrote rationally and without giving yourself palpitations. I answered the guys question. Push and pull things, you don't have to stick to the "big 3" but that was lost on you and then you went on to give it loads. I don't know why I have to give everyone a beatdown. I think it was maybe that time in my childhood when I got a beatdown. Now I have to do it to everyone else, like the guy asking for advice for his wife's workout. I beat him down good, sharing my tips and programme, and giving him advice.

So next time, spare me, find someone else to be your bitch.

Man... I don't know what to say. You really took this one to heart didn't you? Please be assured that I had my last bitch put down as she was too aggressive and the next dog I get will be male. I may never have another bitch is my point.

I just don't care what you have to say, if you are only looking for some internet win.

This much is true. Always seeking the win. The notch on my bedpost so to speak.

Edit: Whats worse is I let him get to me.

Y'know what gets to me? People who are just dishonest. People who criticise people openly and then apologise and are concillatory in private without displaying that same attitude publicly. That's what gets to me.

BossArky

thread ends.