chip on the shoulder

thebaz

while i'm as outraged as anyone at the pricing policy of Philip Browne and co., this article seams a bit cheap - Christians and Pres never struck me as particularly elitist

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/funding-comes-first-but-ticket-prices-could-see-return-to-elitist-days-of-tarquins-and-fauntleroys-2339351.html

Paulw

I actually think he has a very valid point - the price of tickets is too high. Simple as that. Only those with money can afford to attend these games.

The IRFU are very much excluding a large sector who just can't afford those prices. I expect that there will be a lot of empty seats in the Autumn series this year.

redroar1942

Thats takes me back, went to a Pres/Munchins game in the 90's and the Pres boys threw soap and refresher bars at the Munchins crowd. One bright Pres lad had made hundreds of copies of an application form for a school cleaner which he gave to every Munchins supporter that past.

Enjoyed the article, the price differences at the end are the final nail in the coffin.

super_furry

Ignoring the rather obnoxious first five paragraphs, everything else is 100% spot on.

Amazotheamazing

Judging by the interest in the over-rated schools cup in Leinster, it still is a sport for private schools in some areas.

toomevara

Good piece. Nice work, puts the real cost of following he national team in stark relief. As an ex-pat they're even higher. A great, great shame.

Blut2

Its a tad disingenuous to use Scotland as a ticket price comparison these days. Scottish rugby can't fill Murrayfield, thats why prices are so low. If Rugby was a dying sport in Ireland and the IRFU had a 67k capacity stadium to fill I'm sure prices would be rather low here too.

Really, its a 20euro price jump due to an almost halved stadium capacity. Clearly demand will rise so prices do also. The article is just more pointless whining in my opinion.

Shelflife

Hits the nail on the head really. have to say that my heart dropped when i saw the prices and the package structure, they dont seem to factor in the costs of those outside dublin attending the game.

Teferi

I couldn't get past the first couple of paragraphs. The writer sounds like a twat and picking on an extremely easy target is just terrible journalism.

toomevara

Teferi wrote: »

I couldn't get past the first couple of paragraphs. The writer sounds like a twat and picking on an extremely easy target is just terrible journalism.

I'd read the rest before coming to a conclusion. Farelly is imo a pretty decent journalist in the round, though I dont always agree with everything he writes..

I'd also disagree with your characterisation of the issue as an 'easy target'. Its an entirely valid area of enquiry and what Farelly does, quite neatly, is clearly illustrate the real cost of following 160 minutes of rugby over the course of the AI's for the average fan, essentially the bones of 900 yo-yos for those outside of Dublin. Fair game in my opinion and a clear illustration of the fact that the average Jo ain't going to be attending the AI's this year...

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Good piece. Nice work, puts the real cost of following he national team in stark relief. As an ex-pat they're even higher. A great, great shame.

It is not a good piece. Why did he have to include that claptrap about private schools and "the old boys network"? There was no need to reference these tired stereotypes. He's a whinger and the quality of the article is about par for the course for the independent. I agree with his point about excessive pricing, particularly in light of travelling support, but the first few paragraphs are nonsense (unless you are a fan of BS redtop-style "journalism").

thebaz

Paulw wrote: »

I actually think he has a very valid point - the price of tickets is too high. Simple as that. Only those with money can afford to attend these games.

i agree with the core of what he says , maybe Pres and Christians have become newly elitist since i played

myflipflops

It's pretty simple - at these prices, people should stay away.

Last year, my Leinster season ticket cost something in the region of 250 euro. I Munster season tickets were/are a similar price? Along with home Magners League games and home Heineken cup games, I also got first choice for tickets for all the major matches. Despite the fact that I spent 90% of the season out of the country, it was still great value!

The IRFU are trying to charge me that to go and see two test matches. I also doubt paying those prices would give me first choice on tickets for a potential grand slam game or something similar.

I know which organisation will get my continued support.

JustinDee

myflipflops wrote: »

I know which organisation will get my continued support.

They're both the one organisation.

toomevara

Deleted User wrote: »

It is not a good piece. Why did he have to include that claptrap about private schools and "the old boys network"?

Point. Probably would have been best if the class warrior bit was omitted.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I know its horrible prices but they can only charge prices in relation to the demand and the supply.

Their supply is cut from the move from Croke Park.

Tim Robbins

He makes some pretty poor comments about social classes.

He says:

hugh wrote:

However, the appeal and accessibility of the game has broadened hugely since those days. The successes of Munster, Leinster and Ireland have seen more and more schools taking up the sport and rugby has made its way into the rural areas also, becoming a genuine recruitment rival where previously GAA and soccer held sway. And, when rugby was welcomed into Croke Park between 2007 and 2010, there was ample room to cater for the expanded grassroots.

As far as I know only about 10% of schools in Ireland are private. So if you look at the Irish Soccer team you'll see Duffer and the Dublin G.A.A. team you'll Keaney or Vaughen - all of whom went to private schools. The rest went to public. Therefore these teams are accurate representations of both Ireland and Dublin in respect of public / private schools.

If you look at the Leinster team and it's the other way around. Shaggy and O'Brien public schools. The rest private schools. This is a completly inaccurate representation. You effectively have 90% of your team coming from schools that 90% of us don't.

For the Munster team you can make similar arguments (granted it's not as bad - but it's still pretty bad).
There you have Rog, Doc, Leamy, et al who went to private schools making up about 60% of the team. So you have 60% of the team coming from private schools when the percentage of private schools in Munster is even less than it is in Leinster / Dublin. It's probably only about 5%. Again completly disproportionate.

Furthermore, the boom in Rugby has been in people who watch it on tv or in the pub. But that's all these people do. Increase tv ratings. In the last 15 years there have been about 4 new clubs in the Leinster and Munster combined. You'd reallly need about 200 new clubs before you are anywhere near GAA or Soccer.

thebaz

I recently paid a short visit to the Aviva stadium, off hours, and it was about as welcoming as a Four seasons lobby during the boom - the old Lansdown road was about 100 times more welcoming than the snooty corporate veneer

danthefan

Anyone who spends €822 going to a match in Dublin is doing it wrong.

TheTMO

thebaz wrote: »

while i'm as outraged as anyone at the pricing policy of Philip Browne and co., this article seams a bit cheap - Christians and Pres never struck me as particularly elitist

Nor have anyone I know who went to Blackrock, Clongowes or Terenure but they're still known as elitist schools.

In the medias eyes elitist = fee paying school

I don't know why its not seen as equally as elitist in Munster as it is in Leinster because Leinster actually have a hell of a lot more public schools playing rugby than Munster do, I suppose it doesnt help that Leinster play their games in the notorious "D4" its funny though because not one Leinster player is actually from D4.

danthefan

TheTMO wrote: »

Nor have anyone I know who went to Blackrock, Clongowes or Terenure but they're still known as elitist schools.

In the medias eyes elitist = fee paying school

I don't know why its not seen as equally as elitist in Munster as it is in Leinster because Leinster actually have a hell of a lot more public schools playing rugby than Munster do, I suppose it doesnt help that Leinster play their games in the notorious "D4" its funny though because not one Leinster player is actually from D4.

Yeah but did you know at leadt 75% of the crowd in the RDS on a given day lives within a 5 minute walk of the stadium?

</made up fact>.

Zuffer

I hate the way so many tales of woe about the AI involve missing out on seeing the All Blacks. The AB fixture is obviously the one that is most in demand. If tickets were available to buy for that game on its own, there is no doubt that it would sell out, and tickets would be really hard to get. In a limited ticket situation, I'd much rather see a ticket go to a more hardcore fan who wants to see both (or all) the games. Bundling the tickets makes a lot of sense.

The price per game is still high and outside the reach of a lot of people. I see it as a separate issue. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating though. We'll know if the IRFU did the right thing in setting the price if the tickets sell out.

profitius

Tim Robbins wrote: »

As far as I know only about 10% of schools in Ireland are private. So if you look at the Irish Soccer team you'll see Duffer and the Dublin G.A.A. team you'll Keaney or Vaughen - all of whom went to private schools. The rest went to public. Therefore these teams are accurate representations of both Ireland and Dublin in respect of public / private schools.

If you look at the Leinster team and it's the other way around. Shaggy and O'Brien public schools. The rest private schools. This is a completly inaccurate representation. You effectively have 90% of your team coming from schools that 90% of us don't.

For the Munster team you can make similar arguments (granted it's not as bad - but it's still pretty bad).
There you have Rog, Doc, Leamy, et al who went to private schools making up about 60% of the team. So you have 60% of the team coming from private schools when the percentage of private schools in Munster is even less than it is in Leinster / Dublin. It's probably only about 5%. Again completly disproportionate.

Furthermore, the boom in Rugby has been in people who watch it on tv or in the pub. But that's all these people do. Increase tv ratings. In the last 15 years there have been about 4 new clubs in the Leinster and Munster combined. You'd reallly need about 200 new clubs before you are anywhere near GAA or Soccer.

You raised some good points there and it shows how far rugby has to go.

I would add that many of the current generation are from the 90's. In the 90's rugby was played and watched by few people. Since then it has exploded in popularity.

I wrote a thread last week about the future and I reckon there'll be alot more players from different schools as well as youth players. I think the provinces are actively trying to spread the game to non traditional areas and youths rugby is getting better. Theres more kids playing rugby and all the time coaches are going on courses to become better coaches. Waterpark in Waterford have hundreds of youngsters on their books and I think they won an All Ireland youth tournament a few months back.

We won't see the benefits for another few years I reckon because its been just a few years since rugby has gotten into the Irish psyche but there are signs of change. Last year an Irish youths team beat an Irish schools team. Thats encouraging.

myflipflops

JustinDee wrote: »

They're both the one organisation.

Which branch of the organisation then if you want to be pedantic.


Edit: I also remember going to loads of schoolboy matches in Landsdown road from about 1997-2001 for maybe 5 old Irish punts a ticket. Can schoolboys still get in really cheap?

thebaz

danthefan wrote: »

Anyone who spends €822 going to a match in Dublin is doing it wrong.

unless flying in from New Zealand - i wonder do the IRFU realise that there is a recession on , and that the Anglo corporate express is broke

profitius

I can see the IRFU's point but theres one thing that doesn't make much sense for me. If theres such high demand for tickets why do you have to buy tickets for 2 games? It really didn't take into account people travelling from outside of Dublin.

danthefan

Anyway, why are travel costs and hotel prices and whatever even a factor? They are absolutely nothing to do with the IRFU or the ticket prices. The tickets are way too expensive and I won't be buying any but the article is a load of nonsense imo.

Tim Robbins

profitius wrote: »

You raised some good points there and it shows how far rugby has to go.

I would add that many of the current generation are from the 90's. In the 90's rugby was played and watched by few people. Since then it has exploded in popularity.

I wrote a thread last week about the future and I reckon there'll be alot more players from different schools as well as youth players. I think the provinces are actively trying to spread the game to non traditional areas and youths rugby is getting better. Theres more kids playing rugby and all the time coaches are going on courses to become better coaches. Waterpark in Waterford have hundreds of youngsters on their books and I think they won an All Ireland youth tournament a few months back.

If you follow who is getting picked for representative squads at U18, U19, U20 levels and who is getting academy contracts - it's the same auld rugby schools dominating.

We won't see the benefits for another few years I reckon because its been just a few years since rugby has gotten into the Irish psyche but there are signs of change. Last year an Irish youths team beat an Irish schools team. Thats encouraging.

We won't see any benefits because there are none. The average pub has increased the number of rugby matches it shows and the people who watch them have no doubt increased. But, how many new rugby pitches are there in Dublin with new clubs, in the last 10 years for example? It's pretty dismal.

Tim Robbins

TheTMO wrote: »

Nor have anyone I know who went to Blackrock, Clongowes or Terenure but they're still known as elitist schools.

In the medias eyes elitist = fee paying school

But it's a valid point. Look put it this way, if the fees for these places are about 6K a year:
1. You need to have a decent salary, far higher than average industrial wage to pay it.
2. These schools are going to have a way higher number of students who are ridiculously loaded - not just middle class who say pay their fees and scrap the fancy family holidays and changing their car every two years.

This is something that should genuinely worry any genuine rugby fan. If you can't afford the doe, your kids won't get the same opportunities to play rugby at the competitive levels that a rich person's will. These problems don't exist for the genuine GAA / Soccer fan. It didn't matter what school Ronnie Whelean or Ciaran Whelan went to or if their parents could afford the 6K a year.

Unfortunately, the lack of real intent to change things shows me that there's still way to many people who like rugby for the wrong reasons. They like it because it is social grouping they want to identify with and they don't want this social grouping changed. If soccer or gaa were the posh sports they'd like them instead of rugby.

danthefan

danthefan wrote: »

Anyway, why are travel costs and hotel prices and whatever even a factor? They are absolutely nothing to do with the IRFU or the ticket prices.

Its significant since the fanbase (allegedly) covers the island of Ireland and not just Dublin and its surrounding areas. (Although I do agree that "ur doin it rong" if you spend close to a grand for the day)

profitius

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If you follow who is getting picked for representative squads at U18, U19, U20 levels and who is getting academy contracts - it's the same auld rugby schools dominating.

We won't see any benefits because there are none. The average pub has increased the number of rugby matches it shows and the people who watch them have no doubt increased. But, how many new rugby pitches are there in Dublin with new clubs, in the last 10 years for example? It's pretty dismal.

I agree about the way the system is now but disagree about the future. The IRFU are trying to grow the game because they know more numbers means more of everything else.

There's always some who'd like to keep things the way they always were and is more concerned about the social aspect of it than anything else. I'm sure the class thing matters more in Leinster and Ulster than Munster.

Tim Robbins

profitius wrote: »

I agree about the way the system is now but disagree about the future. The IRFU are trying to grow the game because they know more numbers means more of everything else.

There's always some who'd like to keep things the way they always were and is more concerned about the social aspect of it than anything else. I'm sure the class thing matters more in Leinster and Ulster than Munster.

It's still pretty bad in Munster. The game should have really grown here as it's far easier and cheaper to get land for new clubs.

How many new clubs since the mid 90's?

handsomecake

good article but 200 lids for food is exaggerated.they need to subsist,not go to chapter 1

handsomecake

Zuffer wrote: »

I hate the way so many tales of woe about the AI involve missing out on seeing the All Blacks. The AB fixture is obviously the one that is most in demand. If tickets were available to buy for that game on its own, there is no doubt that it would sell out, and tickets would be really hard to get. In a limited ticket situation, I'd much rather see a ticket go to a more hardcore fan who wants to see both (or all) the games. Bundling the tickets makes a lot of sense.

The price per game is still high and outside the reach of a lot of people. I see it as a separate issue. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating though. We'll know if the IRFU did the right thing in setting the price if the tickets sell out.

i disagree,imagine buying a shirt and arnotts only selling it to you if you bought the trousers as well.if i can make the nz game but am out of the country for the next game on business or have a sick relative or am sick myself etc,i have to tout my spare ticket on the black market.

OldRio

Bundling the tickets makes no sense at all.
Tickets cost. Travel cost. 4 weekends off work. God forbid we could afford a drink and a bite.
Not going to happen.
Good article IMHO.

thebaz

Tim Robbins wrote: »

But it's a valid point. Look put it this way, if the fees for these places are about 6K a year:

many schools will pick up outstanding talent at youth level and drop fees - similar to American football - its not publicised but been happening for ages - not the answer, as it makes it more difficult for non fee paying schools to compete comtetivly

danthefan

Deleted User wrote: »

Its significant since the fanbase (allegedly) covers the island of Ireland and not just Dublin and its surrounding areas. (Although I do agree that "ur doin it rong" if you spend close to a grand for the day)

Obviously, but it was the exact same last year, and the year before, and the year before...

Foxtrol

Tim Robbins wrote: »

If you follow who is getting picked for representative squads at U18, U19, U20 levels and who is getting academy contracts - it's the same auld rugby schools dominating.

They come from the same schools because these schools train at a much higher level than other schools and clubs and as thebaz pointed out the schools also headhunt the best talents from clubs and "lesser" rugby schools. From what I've seen the IRFU are trying to improve the level of the newer schools but its not going to transfer into the representative squads overnight.

Gordon Gecko

The ticket prices are a sham I'll agree but the issue of private schools is a completely different one. So what if a certain per cent of Leinster players come from certain schools? It's only been 2 years since I played schoolboy rugby, for a big 6 school, but to be brutally honest I can't remember us being automatically given a 50 point head start just for being from our "elite" school, or the opposition having to play with 11 men or play blindfolded just because they weren't a fee-paying school. Come to think of it, "back in my day" schools rugby consisted of 15 boys vs. 15 other boys, and the team with the most points after 60/70 minutes was declared the winner, regardless of how much their school fees were.

I, like every other Leinster and Ireland fan, wants to see the best and strongest team fielded every week, as to what school they went to: I couldn't give a sh***

maherro

Gordon Gecko wrote: »

The ticket prices are a sham I'll agree but the issue of private schools is a completely different one. So what if a certain per cent of Leinster players come from certain schools? It's only been 2 years since I played schoolboy rugby, for a big 6 school, but to be brutally honest I can't remember us being automatically given a 50 point head start just for being from our "elite" school, or the opposition having to play with 11 men or play blindfolded just because they weren't a fee-paying school. Come to think of it, "back in my day" schools rugby consisted of 15 boys vs. 15 other boys, and the team with the most points after 60/70 minutes was declared the winner, regardless of how much their school fees were.

I, like every other Leinster and Ireland fan, wants to see the best and strongest team fielded every week, as to what school they went to: I couldn't give a sh***

+1

The top players come from the big six in Leinster because they train like no one else

profitius

Tim, I doubt theres been many new clubs in Munster to be honest. I think there have been new schools taking up rugby though and alot of young players. As I said in the thread last week theres a long way to go for Irish rugby but its making progress.

The IRFU have it in their long term strategy to grow the game.

maherro wrote: »

+1
The top players come from the big six in Leinster because they train like no one else

But thats not good for picking out the best talent. In those schools it is but they have an unfair advantage against teams who have not had the same advantages.

It would be like BOD playing in a poor amature team against a full professional team. You wouldn't see much of BOD because he wouldn't get any ball. Thats the problem of trying to pick out the most talented players.

In my opinion the best way to pick out talented players would be by having trial matches and things like kicking and skill tests. Each trial would weed out the poorest players and the players with potential would remain. It would then be up to them to perform on the pitch and see if they have a rugby brain.

Of course players should have multiple opportunities to succeed. If a player was an average kicker but got proper coaching and went away and practised for a year he could turn out to be excellent. Theres many things that can influence how a player develops. The IRFU is already training coaches so its a good start.

TheTMO

profitius wrote: »

In my opinion the best way to pick out talented players would be by having trial matches and things like kicking and skill tests. Each trial would weed out the poorest players and the players with potential would remain. It would then be up to them to perform on the pitch and see if they have a rugby brain.

But they do that. Every school that plays rugby can nominate 2 (or more) of their best players for a trial with Leinster. The likes of McKinley (Columbus) and Jones (Andrews) didn't go to big rugby schools and played in lower divisions.

Amazotheamazing

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's still pretty bad in Munster. The game should have really grown here as it's far easier and cheaper to get land for new clubs.

How many new clubs since the mid 90's?

I don't think you're asking the right question tbh, at least, from a Munster point of view. There's actually a lot of clubs in Munster, to the extent that there isn't a shortage of clubs, but over the last decade there has been a huge increase in underage players at established clubs. This can be seen in the rise of rural clubs too, clubs like Nenagh Ormond and Bruff used to be junior clubs but now both are thriving at senior level.

A better question, imo, would be "Are clubs healthier now than they were before the hype kicked in?" and again, imo, at underage they are.

Some Dublin clubs got locked into staying in their historical sites even after population changes had pushed population away from those locations. Look at how things were done by three large Limerick clubs, Shannon, Garryowen and Bohemians. Shannon moved from the city centre to Thomondgate and then out to Coonagh, Garryowen FC moved from the Garryowen area of Limerick to Dooradoyle, and Bohemians moved in with the University. All these moves allowed the clubs stay vibrant and expand.

themont85

TheTMO wrote: »

But they do that. Every school that plays rugby can nominate 2 (or more) of their best players for a trial with Leinster. The likes of McKinley (Columbus) and Jones (Andrews) didn't go to big rugby schools and played in lower divisions.

Both played in the SCT last 16, the competition proper. Both aren't 'big' rugby schools by your definition because one is small and mixed and the other is mixed and hockey playing. They're both big into their rugby though and have long histories with it going back a hundred years if you look at old SCT records.

Duffer went to DeLaSalle Churchtown btw which isn't fee paying. They did still play a bit when he went there and he was quite good apparently. The only guy who went to a fee paying school and played rugby in the current Irish Soccer squad was Andy Keogh a couple years below me in CBC, was a very good outhalf before concentrating on soccer. Ed Joyce who played cricket for Ireland and England was a very decent player for Pres Bray 10 years ago.

A pretty big proportion of the Dublin Gaa team actually went to fee playing schools TIm actually. 6 or 7 of the panal and a lot of them are starters.

I don't have much time for moaning about schools or the cost of going upto Dublin to see games. Okay it's expensive and you'd want to be pretty well off to do it regularly relative to someone from Dublin say, buy just look at at the attendences when the IRFU moved a couple of games down there in the last few years. Not great tbh.

LeinsterDub

The article is a bit disingenuous. I'm not happy about the price of tickets but the IRFU only control the ticket prices. Assuming they had tickets last year or the year before then the additional cost is 100 . This is still too high if you ask me but it not like the stadium has moved . If its costing 2 people 840 to go to Dublin then last year it cost 740. As someone else said if your paying 740 to go to a match your doing it wrong.

thehighground

themont85 wrote: »

I don't have much time for moaning about schools or the cost of going upto Dublin to see games. Okay it's expensive and you'd want to be pretty well off to do it regularly relative to someone from Dublin say, buy just look at at the attendences when the IRFU moved a couple of games down there in the last few years. Not great tbh.

Ireland played against Canada in Thomond - hardly a particularly attractive fixture, especially if you are going to Croke Park the following week to see Ireland play the ABs. It would be interesting to know how many travelled down from Dublin to Limerick for that match. What was the attendance like for Fiji in the RDS?

maherro

profitius wrote: »

Tim, I doubt theres been many new clubs in Munster to be honest. I think there have been new schools taking up rugby though and alot of young players. As I said in the thread last week theres a long way to go for Irish rugby but its making progress.

The IRFU have it in their long term strategy to grow the game.



But thats not good for picking out the best talent. In those schools it is but they have an unfair advantage against teams who have not had the same advantages.

It would be like BOD playing in a poor amature team against a full professional team. You wouldn't see much of BOD because he wouldn't get any ball. Thats the problem of trying to pick out the most talented players.

In my opinion the best way to pick out talented players would be by having trial matches and things like kicking and skill tests. Each trial would weed out the poorest players and the players with potential would remain. It would then be up to them to perform on the pitch and see if they have a rugby brain.

Of course players should have multiple opportunities to succeed. If a player was an average kicker but got proper coaching and went away and practised for a year he could turn out to be excellent. Theres many things that can influence how a player develops. The IRFU is already training coaches so its a good start.

And that advantage would be?

desertcircus

I'm not sure that it's an unfair advantage, but a randomly selected kid who goes to, say, Blackrock next year is far more likely to make the Leinster and Ireland team in a decade than someone who goes to Random State School A. There are a few reasons: Blackrock have a well-developed production line for drilling players and training them to a high level. The Blackrock kid, let's call him James, shows promise at an early point; he's taken aside and advised that he should think about playing at out-half. He gets kicking training, learns how to call a game, how to work with the scrumhalf and the inside centre, and advised on his fitness. The state school kid, let's call him Jim, finds he loves the game, and he's lucky to have a teacher in the school who tries to organise a rugby team. He gets the attentions of one teacher worrying about whether he'll have enough players to field a full team. The amount of training he does is far lower; the amount of fitness work he does is lower; the teacher's only able to help him along so far. The inside centre is more interested in the football team; the scrumhalf is only playing because it means he gets a class off on Tuesdays for training.

Six years down the line, James has played dozens of competitive games, learned how to deal with all sorts of situations, and developed massively. Jim has played two competitive games a year in a team that struggles to fill the bench, and he's mainly learned how to kick downfield in a hurry because the forwards can't hold for long enough to give him time. When it comes to the Leinster trials, James recognises all the other outhalves likely to get a slot and knows he has the beating of most of them. He's kicked penalties and conversions in far more stressful environments than this. Jim is, well, freaked out. He knows he's decent, but he's never had this kind of pressure on his shoulders. James gets in; Jim doesn't.

It's not necessarily unfair, but if the IRFU are serious about identifying talent, they need to think about different ways of doing things to make sure the good players on crap teams don't fade away.

handsomecake

desertcircus wrote: »

I'm not sure that it's an unfair advantage, but a randomly selected kid who goes to, say, Blackrock next year is far more likely to make the Leinster and Ireland team in a decade than someone who goes to Random State School A. There are a few reasons: Blackrock have a well-developed production line for drilling players and training them to a high level. The Blackrock kid, let's call him James, shows promise at an early point; he's taken aside and advised that he should think about playing at out-half. He gets kicking training, learns how to call a game, how to work with the scrumhalf and the inside centre, and advised on his fitness. The state school kid, let's call him Jim, finds he loves the game, and he's lucky to have a teacher in the school who tries to organise a rugby team. He gets the attentions of one teacher worrying about whether he'll have enough players to field a full team. The amount of training he does is far lower; the amount of fitness work he does is lower; the teacher's only able to help him along so far. The inside centre is more interested in the football team; the scrumhalf is only playing because it means he gets a class off on Tuesdays for training.



Six years down the line, James has played dozens of competitive games, learned how to deal with all sorts of situations, and developed massively. Jim has played two competitive games a year in a team that struggles to fill the bench, and he's mainly learned how to kick downfield in a hurry because the forwards can't hold for long enough to give him time. When it comes to the Leinster trials, James recognises all the other outhalves likely to get a slot and knows he has the beating of most of them. He's kicked penalties and conversions in far more stressful environments than this. Jim is, well, freaked out. He knows he's decent, but he's never had this kind of pressure on his shoulders. James gets in; Jim doesn't.

It's not necessarily unfair, but if the IRFU are serious about identifying talent, they need to think about different ways of doing things to make sure the good players on crap teams don't fade away.

i played for a club from the age of 8.at under 14's half our team went to the local private school the rest of us went to the local public school.at under 18's and under 20's the private school boys returned to play for our club again while they were in college.our old winger was now a number 8 and was still faster then us by miles. they were training 3/4 times a week,horsing the creatine in to them and were in the gym the whole time.when they left for pastures green they were unremarkable ,didnt stand out as stars.by the time they came back they were incredible athletes.half our under 16 team that played together for a year lost their places to the returning college boys.they deserved them too,they were miles better then us.

two of the players who left us and never came back because they improved so much after secondry school were irelands current number 8 and connacht's blondie left wing flyer who has his own thread in our rugby forum;)

if you want a future in rugby for your son..........save up and send him to the right school

chimchimney

desertcircus wrote: »

I'm not sure that it's an unfair advantage, but a randomly selected kid who goes to, say, Blackrock next year is far more likely to make the Leinster and Ireland team in a decade than someone who goes to Random State School A. There are a few reasons: Blackrock have a well-developed production line for drilling players and training them to a high level. The Blackrock kid, let's call him James, shows promise at an early point; he's taken aside and advised that he should think about playing at out-half. He gets kicking training, learns how to call a game, how to work with the scrumhalf and the inside centre, and advised on his fitness. The state school kid, let's call him Jim, finds he loves the game, and he's lucky to have a teacher in the school who tries to organise a rugby team. He gets the attentions of one teacher worrying about whether he'll have enough players to field a full team. The amount of training he does is far lower; the amount of fitness work he does is lower; the teacher's only able to help him along so far. The inside centre is more interested in the football team; the scrumhalf is only playing because it means he gets a class off on Tuesdays for training.

Six years down the line, James has played dozens of competitive games, learned how to deal with all sorts of situations, and developed massively. Jim has played two competitive games a year in a team that struggles to fill the bench, and he's mainly learned how to kick downfield in a hurry because the forwards can't hold for long enough to give him time. When it comes to the Leinster trials, James recognises all the other outhalves likely to get a slot and knows he has the beating of most of them. He's kicked penalties and conversions in far more stressful environments than this. Jim is, well, freaked out. He knows he's decent, but he's never had this kind of pressure on his shoulders. James gets in; Jim doesn't.

It's not necessarily unfair, but if the IRFU are serious about identifying talent, they need to think about different ways of doing things to make sure the good players on crap teams don't fade away.

exactly what i was thinking... so basically if you cant afford the fees for a private school your chances of reaching the top level in rugby are drastically reduced.

( granted there are scholarships but most of the scholarships are given out at age 12, not a huge window of opportunity really)

not a great system really imo, not fair on the young talent, and not great for talent development.

profitius

handsomecake wrote: »

i played for a club from the age of 8.at under 14's half our team went to the local private school the rest of us went to the local public school.at under 18's and under 20's the private school boys returned to play for our club again while they were in college.our old winger was now a number 8 and was still faster then us by miles. they were training 3/4 times a week,horsing the creatine in to them and were in the gym the whole time.when they left for pastures green they were unremarkable ,didnt stand out as stars.by the time they came back they were incredible athletes.half our under 16 team that played together for a year lost their places to the returning college boys.they deserved them too,they were miles better then us.

two of the players who left us and never came back because they improved so much after secondry school were irelands current number 8 and connacht's blondie left wing flyer who has his own thread in our rugby forum;)

if you want a future in rugby for your son..........save up and send him to the right school

And I bet if they went to the public schools theres very little chance they'd be professionals today.