Buzzards and Frogs

E39MSport

I've seen one eat a frog.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Frogs make up a fair portion of their diet.

Mothman

Abel Spoiled Rigging wrote: »

Frogs make up a fair portion of their diet.

Indeed,
Many years ago I had one perched in my garden for more than a month at spawning time. It was here for the frogs.

trebor28

so the government spend money on introducing these birds and then decides we'll count all the frogs in the country and spends money doing this while the buzzards are cleaning them out behind them!!

doh!

Feargal as Luimneach

trebor28 wrote: »

so the government spend money on introducing these birds and then decides we'll count all the frogs in the country and spends money doing this while the buzzards are cleaning them out behind them!!

doh!

Get your facts correct.:rolleyes:
The buzzards are not being re-introduced they are already here. The buzzards are not the cause of decline of frogs, habitat degradation is.

doh!

trebor28

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Get your facts correct.:rolleyes:
The buzzards are not being re-introduced they are already here. The buzzards are not the cause of decline of frogs, habitat degradation is.

doh!

are they not releasing them as well???

i was just pointing out an irony with our government, wasnt having a stab at the buzzards!

Feargal as Luimneach

trebor28 wrote: »

are they not releasing them as well???

i was just pointing out an irony with our government, wasnt having a stab at the buzzards!

Buzzards aren't being released.
The cost of the frog survey is 125,000 euro which in all fairness is a tiny amount. Frogs are declining so why shouldn't something be done about it.:(

trebor28

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

Buzzards aren't being released.
The cost of the frog survey is 125,000 euro which in all fairness is a tiny amount. Frogs are declining so why shouldn't something be done about it.:(

yes thats a tiny amount, how do you know they are declining?
if its so obvious why are they bothering to count them, the time they spend counting them will be time wasted if there will be more gone by the time they have finished.
and what then, spend more time and money investigating why they are declining and then publish a report on these findings and outlining what can be done to counteract these problems??
how long will that take??
5 years?
and then what?
a year setting up a task force to set up a plan to get the frog numbers back to where they belong!!

Birdnuts

trebor28 wrote: »

yes thats a tiny amount, how do you know they are declining?
if its so obvious why are they bothering to count them, the time they spend counting them will be time wasted if there will be more gone by the time they have finished.
and what then, spend more time and money investigating why they are declining and then publish a report on these findings and outlining what can be done to counteract these problems??
how long will that take??
5 years?
and then what?
a year setting up a task force to set up a plan to get the frog numbers back to where they belong!!

Its to comply with EU Directives and I believe most of the cost is being met by the EU:)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

trebor28 wrote: »

yes thats a tiny amount, how do you know they are declining?
if its so obvious why are they bothering to count them, the time they spend counting them will be time wasted if there will be more gone by the time they have finished.
and what then, spend more time and money investigating why they are declining and then publish a report on these findings and outlining what can be done to counteract these problems??
how long will that take??
5 years?
and then what?
a year setting up a task force to set up a plan to get the frog numbers back to where they belong!!

I'm at a loss to understand you. Why do we count or survey anything then? Why carry out the wetlands suveys, the corncrake surveys, the atlas of breeding birds? Because we need to put real flesh on the situation and use the proper scientific figures to formulate a plan.
Frogs are declining across Europe (hence their EU wide protection) but this research may show a healthy Irish population and guidlines asto what features of particular areas aids their survival.

As for Buzzards eating all the Frogs; so do Herons, Harriers, Kestrals, Otters, and many more. It's part of our diversity.

Oh! and €125k is a pittance.

jwshooter

Abel Spoiled Rigging wrote: »

I'm at a loss to understand you. Why do we count or survey anything then? Why carry out the wetlands suveys, the corncrake surveys, the atlas of breeding birds? Because we need to put real flesh on the situation and use the proper scientific figures to formulate a plan.
Frogs are declining across Europe (hence their EU wide protection) but this research may show a healthy Irish population and guidlines asto what features of particular areas aids their survival.

As for Buzzards eating all the Frogs; so do Herons, Harriers, Kestrals, Otters, and many more. It's part of our diversity.

Oh! and €125k is a pittance.

yet again more problems caused my raptors .

Mothman

jwshooter wrote: »

yet again more problems caused my raptors .

jwshooter
Please explain what you mean by this statement and how it specifically applies to Buzzards

Feargal as Luimneach

Mothman wrote: »

jwshooter
Please explain what you mean by this statement and how it specifically applies to Buzzards

X2

jwshooter

Mothman wrote: »

jwshooter
Please explain what you mean by this statement and how it specifically applies to Buzzards

its not a long statement , but i thought it was fairly self explanatory ..

but i will explain any way ,,not alone are raptors/buzzards killing endangered bird ,now there eating endangered frogs .i wrote that slowly for you guys .

To think i almost put my landrover into the heather on the sally gap last nite to miss one ,facker was hopping faster that i thought .

there is no point getting excited with me there facts .

Feargal as Luimneach

jwshooter wrote: »

its not a long statement , but i thought it was fairly self explanatory ..

but i will explain any way ,,not alone are raptors/buzzards killing endangered bird ,now there eating endangered frogs .i wrote that slowly for you guys .

To think i almost put my landrover into the heather on the sally gap last nite to miss one ,facker was hopping faster that i thought .

there is no point getting excited with me there facts .

A few Irish birds that would eat frogs/tadpoles:
Red throated-Diver, little grebe, great crested grebe, cormorant, little egret, grey heron, goosander, red-breasted merganser, water rail, coot, black-headed gull, common gull, mediterranean gull, herring gull, lesser black-backed gull, little gull, sandwich tern, common tern, artic tern, black tern, long-eared owl, barn owl, short-eared owl and raven.

I'm probably missing a good few birds as well. Yes jwshooter we should eradicate all these birds to protect frogs:rolleyes:

jwshooter

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

A few Irish birds that would eat frogs/tadpoles:
Red throated-Diver, little grebe, great crested grebe, cormorant, little egret, grey heron, goosander, red-breasted merganser, water rail, coot, black-headed gull, common gull, mediterranean gull, herring gull, lesser black-backed gull, little gull, sandwich tern, common tern, artic tern, black tern, long-eared owl, barn owl, short-eared owl and raven.

I'm probably missing a good few birds as well. Yes jwshooter we should eradicate all these birds to protect frogs:rolleyes:

you have several , buzzards , sparrow hawks ,kestrels ,most raptors in fact .magpies ,hooded crows ,jays ,ravens the list goes on .

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

What?

Mothman

jwshooter wrote: »

,now there eating endangered frogs

I was expecting something rather more insightful.

I don't agree it is a problem that frogs are preyed upon by Buzzards. It is what I expect as part of our native wildlife

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

you have several , buzzards , sparrow hawks ,kestrels ,most raptors in fact .magpies ,hooded crows ,jays ,ravens the list goes on .

My dearest and most regarded friend, jwshooter,

I feel your pain, and I empathise with your incoherent blurtings. What you lack in eloquence you compensate for in your inarticulate and incomprehensible passion. You are trying to make a point, but everyone is struggling to understand what it is.

Are you saying that because we have relentlessly persecuted one species (Grouse) to the point of extinction, that we should now persecute another element of our native wildlife that occasionally preyed on that species? Lovely. A splendid concept, my man!

Are you also saying that we should make decisions immediately without any scientific basis, but instead putting our blind faith and trust your assurance that it is the best thing to do?

If I am being unfair, perhaps you could explain your point a bit more clearly.

I am not sure what precisely it is that you are struggling to express (but I am fairly sure that I disagree with you!).

I hope you will continue to engage in this discussion. It is fascinating to have an opportunity to debate these issues with someone whose mindset appears to have survived intact from the Victorian era. Pristine and untouched by a century of discovery and revelations about our natural world, surviving with its fixed and resolute views about the ecosystem as something disordered and ungodly that becomes unbalanced without regular applications of gunshot wounds to selected elements. And this is then balanced by a wholly sentimental and irrational defence of other elements of the ecosystem, which are nurtured and defended, so that they can be shot later.

This is the mindset that extinguished all our large raptors.

Your participation here in this forum is a chance we must grasp to our collective breast. It is a bit like having a chance to discuss these issues with the gentry who blew the last Irish buzzards, kites, eagles and ospreys out of the sky. For anthropological reasons alone, it is worth hearing your primitive arguments fully explained, because they appear very fragmented and disjointed as you have presented them.

I would be grateful if you would attempt a fuller exposition of your fossilised philosophy.

It would be an utter tragedy if someone were to convince you of your wrong-headedness before you bequeath the entire zany machinations of your wonky logic to the world.

In the fullness of time when you pass on at a ripe old age, I hope to have raised enough funds to have you stuffed and put in a glass case.

I remain,

Your most obedient servant and admirer,

Sir Loste of Covey

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

.

there is no point getting excited with me there facts .

I'm sorry but when it come to facts you don't know your ar%e from your elbow. Frogs are at the bottom of the food chain to the extant that hedgehogs and even shrews feed on them, not to mention small frogs occasionally being eaten by large ones - do you think they should be blown away too:mad:. Frogs are declining due to habitat loss as has been pointed out here on numerous occasions:rolleyes: I'm beginning to think you post such drivel simply to get a reaction and to be honest its becoming rather pathetic and tiresome :mad::mad:

LostCovey

Birdnuts wrote: »

I'm sorry but when it come to facts you don't know your ar%e from your elbow. Frogs are at the bottom of the food chain to the extant that hedgehogs and even shrews feed on them, not to mention small frogs occasionally being eaten by large ones - do you think they should be blown away too:mad:. Frogs are declining due to habitat loss as has been pointed out here on numerous occasions:rolleyes: I'm beginning to think you post such drivel simply to get a reaction and to be honest its becoming rather pathetic and tiresome :mad::mad:

You must not scare him off with this hostility Birdnuts. He has much to teach us about his culture and the ways of his people.

Let us make this man welcome and learn to interpret his words. I shall question him more closely when he returns, mark well how he answers me, I pray thee.

Forsooth.

Sir Loste of Covey

Birdnuts

jwshooter wrote: »

you have several , buzzards , sparrow hawks ,kestrels ,most raptors in fact .magpies ,hooded crows ,jays ,ravens the list goes on .

I'm probably being way too optimistic here but whats your point

jwshooter

LostCovey wrote: »

My dearest and most regarded friend, jwshooter,

I feel your pain, and I empathise with your incoherent blurtings. What you lack in eloquence you compensate for in your inarticulate and incomprehensible passion. You are trying to make a point, but everyone is struggling to understand what it is.

Are you saying that because we have relentlessly persecuted one species (Grouse) to the point of extinction, that we should now persecute another element of our native wildlife that occasionally preyed on that species? Lovely. A splendid concept, my man!

Are you also saying that we should make decisions immediately without any scientific basis, but instead putting our blind faith and trust your assurance that it is the best thing to do?

If I am being unfair, perhaps you could explain your point a bit more clearly.

I am not sure what precisely it is that you are struggling to express (but I am fairly sure that I disagree with you!).

I hope you will continue to engage in this discussion. It is fascinating to have an opportunity to debate these issues with someone whose mindset appears to have survived intact from the Victorian era. Pristine and untouched by a century of discovery and revelations about our natural world, surviving with its fixed and resolute views about the ecosystem as something disordered and ungodly that becomes unbalanced without regular applications of gunshot wounds to selected elements. And this is then balanced by a wholly sentimental and irrational defence of other elements of the ecosystem, which are nurtured and defended, so that they can be shot later.

This is the mindset that extinguished all our large raptors.

Your participation here in this forum is a chance we must grasp to our collective breast. It is a bit like having a chance to discuss these issues with the gentry who blew the last Irish buzzards, kites, eagles and ospreys out of the sky. For anthropological reasons alone, it is worth hearing your primitive arguments fully explained, because they appear very fragmented and disjointed as you have presented them.

I would be grateful if you would attempt a fuller exposition of your fossilised philosophy.

It would be an utter tragedy if someone were to convince you of your wrong-headedness before you bequeath the entire zany machinations of your wonky logic to the world.

In the fullness of time when you pass on at a ripe old age, I hope to have raised enough funds to have you stuffed and put in a glass case.

I remain,

Your most obedient servant and admirer,

Sir Loste of Covey

i have a headache now ..Loste of covey

what part of these ramblings would you like me to address or had you drink taken last nite .. famous grouse i bet .

LostCovey

jwshooter wrote: »

i have a headache now ..Loste of covey

what part of these ramblings would you like me to address or had you drink taken last nite .. famous grouse i bet .

That is an outrageous accusation.

Nasal congestion runs in my family.

I suppose I was intrigued at the prospect at engaging with what I might thoughtlessly have considered a pre-Darwinian nihilistic view of nature. I was excited at the prospect of probing your motivation and exploring the reasoning of someone whose musings on such a construct were so intriguingly framed.

Phenomenal opportunity. Quite at a loss as to how precisely to progress it to be honest.

Maybe start by telling me all about your childhood.

LostCovey

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Can we get back to discussing Buzzards please? All very amusing kids but take it somewhere else!:rolleyes:

wildlifeboy

Ah this is hilarious, I have a whole new found respect for LC, please forgive my previous pm months ago. as regards JW and his opinion on Frogs, Well I for one think that there should be more money spent on Anphibian surveys. having taken part this year in the Dublin IWT Newt survey I think these studies provide valuable information on distribution and habitat loss, population densitys etc. I belieive Ireland is still a stronghold for the Common Frog within Europe and if there is something that our eco system provides which limits the spread of the fungus which is decimating populations through out the world then garnering this data is of the utmost importance. I love Frogs and hope that they do find some concrete data as to why our population is thriving in relation to the continent. <snip>

E39MSport

Should the local (frog) population change on a yearly basis due to weather or other factors?

I have seen very few this year in and around the garden compared to previous years. However, I never saw a Pine Marten in the garden before (or anywhere else for that matter) or so many Buzzards as have seen this year.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The particularly cold and extended Winter may have had an influence on numbers surviving into Spring. I suspect numbers will recover though.

E39MSport

Abel Spoiled Rigging wrote: »

The particularly cold and extended Winter may have had an influence on numbers surviving into Spring. I suspect numbers will recover though.

.. of course. Thank You.

E39MSport

@Mothman
I just read the originating thread after reading this twice wondering how could I have been that pi55ed to start a thread and not remember (I read it earlier today also).

Now there are 2 reasons. I'm in Alsace taking onboard everything they have to offer. Earlier today I gave in to the inevitable and assumed I'd been DUI. However, it has since emerged that Mothman has been 'trapping' my thoughts.

Mothman, don't do that to me.

recedite

LostCovey wrote: »

He has much to teach us about his culture and the ways of his people.

Its a simple black and white approach to the natural world that can be summed up as "Good animals are useful or tasty to eat. Bad animals compete with us and should be killed".

Re the "endangered" frogs; I see plenty of frogs. Even if there is some habitat loss after drainage works, we still have a damp climate which suits them.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

You can leave the jibes at Jwshi..sorry JWshooter for a while. Seems he's banned for a month. Save it until he comes back.

Anyway back to Buzzards and Frogs. Why the combination? Yes, Buzzards eat frogs; as do many other species. Do they have a negative affect on number? Of course not. It's a natural situation in balance.

Now Frogs for Frogs sake. Yes, numbers seem lower this year but, as already stated, this should recover. We are conducting a survey on numbers but that does not suggest a population problem. We don't just survey when we feel a species is in danger.

Mothman

E39MSport wrote: »

@Mothman
I just read the originating thread after reading this twice wondering how could I have been that pi55ed to start a thread and not remember (I read it earlier today also).

Now there are 2 reasons. I'm in Alsace taking onboard everything they have to offer. Earlier today I gave in to the inevitable and assumed I'd been DUI. However, it has since emerged that Mothman has been 'trapping' my thoughts.

Mothman, don't do that to me.

Sorry
I had to pick a start point and that one liner happened to be it....

Perhaps I could have inserted a note in your post mentioning it had been moved, but some members may take objection to this intrusion.
I'll bear it in mind, perhaps a short pm to inform...

Back on topic, its the annual frog carnage with me today
I've mowed my meadow and unless I leave to till well into November there are a lot of casualties no matter when I do it, as many as a third, but a lot when one considers that there may be as many as 100 frogs in it.

E39MSport

^ was pulling your leg.

Must be difficult to knowingly cause that damage to the local frog population. I'm sure you'll have a buzzard or three in for Supper though.

Feargal as Luimneach

Mothman wrote: »

Sorry
I had to pick a start point and that one liner happened to be it....

Perhaps I could have inserted a note in your post mentioning it had been moved, but some members may take objection to this intrusion.
I'll bear it in mind, perhaps a short pm to inform...

Back on topic, its the annual frog carnage with me today
I've mowed my meadow and unless I leave to till well into November there are a lot of casualties no matter when I do it, as many as a third, but a lot when one considers that there may be as many as 100 frogs in it.

I only cut grass once a year. The wild flower meadow patch will be cut in the spring. I'm not looking forward to it either. I had a bumper year for emerging froglets in the garden.

wildlifeboy

how can you justify mowing your lawn when you are knowingly killing all those poor frogs??

Mothman

E39MSport wrote: »

^ was pulling your leg.

Must be difficult to knowingly cause that damage to the local frog population. I'm sure you'll have a buzzard or three in for Supper though.

Fair enough but still an issue all the same.

Well if I didn't put in lake or pond I wouldn't have the frogs. Doesn't really make it any better killing them. The buzzards won't be in but the hens eat them :eek:
It was just the one Spring when I had the Buzzard each day for its frogs. I thought at the time that it would happen annually but didn't happen again.

Mothman

wildlifeboy wrote: »

how can you justify mowing your lawn when you are knowingly killing all those poor frogs??

Well on many levels. But it isn't my lawn. It is my meadow. If I hadn't created the habitat for them, I wouldn't have frogs. If it was a lawn it wouldn't have frogs. I have been following near enough the same management for many years and the numbers of frogs has not reduced.

Also because this meadow is around my house, it is a fire hazard with all the dry flowers and grass. By mowing it now, it greens up and gives me a buffer zone should we get a dry spell.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

wildlifeboy wrote: »

how can you justify mowing your lawn when you are knowingly killing all those poor frogs??

Keep some perspective. Some times we have to do things about the house. I have a portion of lawn that's kept neat and trimmed. From time to time I catch a frog with the mower. It happens but, as Mothman said, I have created an environment that helps frogs and an odd casualty, while unfortunate, is not the end of the world.

wildlifeboy

Abel Spoiled Rigging wrote: »

Keep some perspective. Some times we have to do things about the house. I have a portion of lawn that's kept neat and trimmed. From time to time I catch a frog with the mower. It happens but, as Mothman said, I have created an environment that helps frogs and an odd casualty, while unfortunate, is not the end of the world.

In fairness that was said tongue in cheek, I completely respect what you are doing.Here is an obvious tip, dont put frogspawn in with Koy Carp. I'd say only about 5 survived out of thousands!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

wildlifeboy wrote: »

tip, dont put frogspawn in with Koy Carp. I'd say only about 5 survived out of thousands!

Watch for Herons as well!

It's a wonder any survive at all!

Isn't Nature wonderful?

E39MSport

.... the circle completes

Feargal as Luimneach

Mothman wrote: »

Well on many levels. But it isn't my lawn. It is my meadow. If I hadn't created the habitat for them, I wouldn't have frogs. If it was a lawn it wouldn't have frogs. I have been following near enough the same management for many years and the numbers of frogs has not reduced.

Also because this meadow is around my house, it is a fire hazard with all the dry flowers and grass. By mowing it now, it greens up and gives me a buffer zone should we get a dry spell.

I understand where Wildlife boy is coming from, but I too have to trim the grass. Granted it's only once a year and I'll be on my hands and knees picking up any froglets before it's trimmed. The wildflower meadow patch has to be mowed once a year to stop it becoming rank(not good for wildlife).
Before I moved into my place it was a barren desert IMO(ie a "well" maintained garden with non-native plants). There was no frogs:(, but after removing all non-native plants and putting in two ponds, 100+ metres of native irish hedgerow, six bogs and a wildflower meadow. I also dug up my driveway to put in a 6mx3m heather bog. Thankfully I've plenty now of frogs and some Newts. Forgive my boasting:o

wildlifeboy

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

I understand where Wildlife boy is coming from, but I too have to trim the grass. Granted it's only once a year and I'll be on my hands and knees picking up any froglets before it's trimmed. The wildflower meadow patch has to be mowed once a year to stop it becoming rank(not good for wildlife).
Before I moved into my place it was a barren desert IMO(ie a "well" maintained garden with non-native plants). There was no frogs:(, but after removing all non-native plants and putting in two ponds, 100+ metres of native irish hedgerow, six bogs and a wildflower meadow. I also dug up my driveway to put in a 6mx3m heather bog. Thankfully I've plenty now of frogs and some Newts. Forgive my boasting:o

Can we see some pics?

Feargal as Luimneach

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055899571&highlight=photographic+pond&page=3
Here's some photos


And what was the driveway: heather bog collected from a bog that is was being infilled

littlebug

Nothing to do with buzzards :rolleyes: but I noticed quite a lot of little dead frogs along the side of the road yesterday... some squashed but many of them not. Any ideas on what might have killed them if not traffic?

Everett

Probably a piece of useless info, but thought i would share, when i was driving home one night a couple of weeks ago in the really wet weather, the rain was pouring and up ahead i thought the road was moving, there must have been thousands of frogs hopping across the road in front of me all along the road further ahead, i stopped the van and was amazed watching these frogs moving from one field to the other,anyone know why they where doing this in the thousands,i have only seen this once and in torrential rain.

Mothman

littlebug and Everett
What size were the frogs?

littlebug

The one that I stopped to look at properly was lying belly up and with legs outstretched was maybe 3-4 inches or thereabouts. There weren't thousands in one place like Everett saw but on a stretch of 6 miles I saw quite a few. I have no idea how many but enough to make me notice.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

These are Frogs moving from Summer/Breeding areas in preparation for hibernation.

The expression "raining cats and dogs" originally was "raining frogs" but Cockney rhyming slang then substituted "cats and dogs" for "frogs". The mass exodus of frogs from their breeding ponds has long been observed and, because the movement of many thousands of frogs usually takes place in wet weather, it has given rise to the belief that frogs came from the sky.

Everett

Mothman wrote: »

littlebug and Everett
What size were the frogs?

Different sizes mothman , 3-4 inches being the majority.Wasnt too far from you either Mothman.