AH & Perceived Sexism

liah

A lot of arguments made here (once you get past the usual AH bs): http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056033100

I'm not going to rehash everything, but as a summary for those who aren't aware, there was a thread recently which spawned a few misogynistic attacks towards a few female AH posters, including myself. The remarks in question are quoted a few times in the above thread if you care to search them, you can also find them in my post history if that's easier.

Basically, a lot of girls are upset about the general attitude towards women that seems to be increasing in AH. The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen! ") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.

A few of us feel that while racism, sexuality, religion, and politics are incredibly well moderated and kept as clean as possible, remarks against women tend to be greatly overlooked.

Personally, my desire is to simply make things equal for all groups. I believe snide, snarky remarks clearly intended to offend should not be made towards anyone, not only women, but because I am female and this issue has currently come up it's what the focus of this thread will be on, so hopefully it will not end up in a "well what about OUR group?"-- if you feel that way, start your own thread, but please do not turn this into a men vs. women or women vs. anything debate or "my group has it just as bad as/worse than yours" pissing contests.

Hopefully the other women will share their personal views, as I can't speak for everyone.

Edited to say, can anything be done about the juvenile references to the matter at hand in various threads cropping up around AH? It's incredibly demeaning that us trying to stand up for ourselves is met with mockery and a slew of new snide in-jokes. Really doesn't help encourage other women to express their views and kind of makes a point for the ones who were making references to feeling intimidated.

Winters

gb2kitchen.

Nevyn

Winters Post above reported, anyone else who think's it's out of line in this thread please report it also.

liah

Chrissake.

You know what? I give up. This obviously will never be taken seriously (this is Feedback, not AH ffs), I don't know why on earth I thought that it would.

Can you like, just not make a joke for once? Just once? When I'm trying to actually start a real discussion on something that concerns a large amount of boards users?

AnnyHallsal

Jokes about, or made at the expense of, women are treated far more leniently than other areas of prejudice. The thread liah flagged was an extreme example of this, and should have been caught by a Mod earlier. There are clearly a number of female boardsies who feel their voices aren't respected. I'm not advocating censorship of AH, but I think Mods could step in a bit more often when comments about female posters become overtly derogatory. The lack of patrolling or discipline has led us all to believe that sexism of various shades of seriousness is acceptable. This should be clarified.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

Jokes about, or made at the expense of, women are treated far more leniently than other areas of prejudice. The thread liah flagged was an extreme example of this, and should have been caught by a Mod earlier. There are clearly a number of female boardsies who feel their voices aren't respected. I'm not advocating censorship of AH, but I think Mods could step in a bit more often when comments about female posters become overtly derogatory. The lack of patrolling or discipline has led us all to believe that sexism of various shades of seriousness is acceptable. This should be clarified.

umm.. you are advocating censorship of AH. That is exactly what you are advocating. There's not even any wriggle room about it.

Nevyn

liah wrote: »

Chrissake.

You know what? I give up. This obviously will never be taken seriously (this is Feedback, not AH ffs), I don't know why on earth I thought that it would.

Can you like, just not make a joke for once? Just once? When I'm trying to actually start a real discussion on something that concerns a large amount of boards users?

Liah those two are ex mods and trolls by any other name.
Don't let them get to you, and don't let them goad you into getting into a tit for tat with them.

Ectoplasm

I'd like to second what Liah has said. Much of AH is lighthearted banter and that's what makes it fun but the concept of 'attack the post, not the poster' doesn't always appear to apply if the original poster is female. It'd be great if this wasn't allowed to slide.

Tallon

liah to answer your question, personal attacks are NEVER acceptable.

The kitchen thing is funny (from a fellas POW) but if you, or any other FM poster feels like this, report the crap out of it

To illiterate:
'Liah, get in the kitchen' IS abuse
'woman, get in the kitchen' is an attempt at humour, and should be seen as nothing more

Winters

Thaedydal wrote: »

Liah those two are ex mods and trolls by any other name.
Don't let them get to you, and don't let them goad you into getting into a tit for tat with them.

I actually legally changed my middle name to "Troll".

AH is AH, a hey mix of random spouted idiocy with added idiocy. Why not have a similar thread on a more respectable forum where more logical and higher class posting is carried out in?

liah

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

umm.. you are advocating censorship of AH. That is exactly what you are advocating. There's not even any wriggle room about it.

And you're speaking without actually having a clue about anything the thread is about. You're what we're sick of.

Herbal Deity

Can I restate what I said in the other thread, as I feel it was lost in the crossfire?

If a sanitized general discussion forum is desired, why isn't one created? Attempts to change AH will not work.

Nevyn

Tallon wrote: »

liah to answer your question, personal attacks are NEVER acceptable.

The kitchen thing is funny (from a fellas POW) but if you, or any other FM poster feels like this, report the crap out of it

To illiterate:
'Liah, get in the kitchen' IS abuse
'woman, get in the kitchen' is an attempt at humour, and should be seen as nothing more

Funny how if you mirror that with the line "men are bastards" it get up male posters noses in ah, same with the "men are rapists".

AnnyHallsal

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

umm.. you are advocating censorship of AH. That is exactly what you are advocating. There's not even any wriggle room about it.

I don't need you to tell me what I am or am not advocating. I'm advocating fair modding, not censorship.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

liah wrote: »

And you're speaking without actually having a clue about anything the thread is about. You're what we're sick of.

I have been following this controversy for a full four minutes.

Nevyn

Herbal Deity wrote: »

Can I restate what I said in the other thread, as I feel it was lost in the crossfire?

If a sanitized general discussion forum is desired, why isn't one created? Attempts to change AH will not work.

Because the admins have said no time and time again.

Super-Rush

Liah if there is a thread about this in After Hours already, why did you feel the need to come here to talk about the exact same subject?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

I don't need you to tell me what I am or am not advocating. I'm advocating fair modding, not censorship.

so you want the mods to clamp down on speech you find unacceptable, but you don't want censorship?

stovelid

Light-hearted jokes about women, even 'sexist' ones should stay. Along with other topics. I'd hate to see another whittling away of previously-allowed funnehs.

Clearly some of the posts in the Sexual Harassment thread were nasty - the 'feminazi' ones already alluded to were the pits: even more so for me because they were aimed at a female poster that I respect a lot. That said: to me they breached more general boundaries anyway: personal attacks and trolling, for example

AnnyHallsal

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

so you want the mods to clamp down on speech you find unacceptable, but you don't want censorship?

It depends how you define clamp down.

dregin

AnnyHallsal wrote: »

It depends how you define clamp down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4t4iCe-bK0

Ickle Magoo

I remember posting in AH about something reasonably serious and the well thanked response was they were going to stick a finger in me.

The sheer volume of posts and one-liners would never be trotted out to the same extent advocating discrimination against race or physically harming another race or whatever because it would be accompanied by a ton of bricks waving a ban-stick, that's the annoying thing.

liah

Okay, I've bolded and put in red the exact type of sexism we're upset with.

How can you possibly argue that that sort of sexism is okay?

And stop with the "don't take away AH's jokes!" We're not! We still make jokes about gays, men, women, poles, brits, etc. etc. without being offensive. The problem is, when offensive comments are made TO gays, men, poles, brits, etc. etc. the issue is usually resolved within a matter of minutes. When it's in reference to women, it's seen as completely fine.

I don't understand why this is so unbelievably unreasonable to some of you and I think it's kind of frightening how hard some men are fighting for their "right" to be offensive towards women.

Last time:
JOKES = FINE
OFFENSIVE MISOGYNISTIC ATTACKS = NOT FINE

Not sure how many more times I'm going to have to say it..

Tallon

I don't think this thread is about 'woman' but more about the abuse that certain woman posters are subject to, and in turn, pawned off as general feminist slagging

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

no, it really doesn't

there is quite a bit of censorship on AH. racism, travellerism, romaism. if you want censorship, just come out and admit it. we can at least have a discussion about that, but so long as you're outright refusing to be straight with us I don't see how this can proceed much further.

I feel given the current scandals I should point out I didn't intend to be homophobic when i asked that you 'be straight' with us.

--edit

damnit all, stop posting until i've had a chance to reply to the post I wanted to reply to

liah

super-rush wrote: »

Liah if there is a thread about this in After Hours already, why did you feel the need to come here to talk about the exact same subject?

Because it was suggested by multiple people within the thread to start one in feedback. So I did. Is there a problem? I just felt the matter might be taken more seriously over here, although apparently I was wrong. Move it wherever you wish I guess.

TheZohanS

Thaedydal wrote: »

Funny how if you mirror that with the line "men are bastards" it get up male posters noses in ah, same with the "men are rapists".

Ahem.... you're wrong, and I bet there wasn't one reported post, nobody on thread complained.

Micky Dolenz

liah wrote: »

Because it was suggested by multiple people within the thread to start one in feedback. So I did. Is there a problem? I just felt the matter might be taken more seriously over here, although apparently I was wrong. Move it wherever you wish I guess.

The AH Mod team are taking this very seriously.

dregin

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I remember posting in AH about something reasonably serious and the well thanked response was they were going to stick a finger in me.

The sheer volume of posts and one-liners would never be trotted out to the same extent advocating discrimination against race or physically harming another race or whatever because it would be accompanied by a ton of bricks waving a ban-stick, that's the annoying thing.

Just so you know. I think I may have thanked this post for COMPLETELY different reasons to the other thankers.

Sound.

AnnyHallsal

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

no, it really doesn't

there is quite a bit of censorship on AH. racism, travellerism, romaism. if you want censorship, just come out and admit it. we can at least have a discussion about that, but so long as you're outright refusing to be straight with us I don't see how this can proceed much further.

I feel given the current scandals I should point out I didn't intend to be homophobic when i asked that you 'be straight' with us.

--edit

damnit all, stop posting until i've had a chance to reply to the post I wanted to reply to

I would admit it if I did, but I don't. This I interpret to be trolling, ie intentionally derailing the thread.

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

Because it was suggested by multiple people within the thread to start one in feedback. So I did. Is there a problem? I just felt the matter might be taken more seriously over here, although apparently I was wrong. Move it wherever you wish I guess.

Thats a bit unfair don't you think. I've read back through the thread and you have been listened to and Mickey D has been cleaning up the thread as quickly as he can.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

how in the name of hell is this trolling?

you're asking for opinions you dissaprove of to be shut out of the forum, but it's not censorship?

... how?

you can't just scream 'troll' and wipe your hands of the discussion.

Herbal Deity

Thaedydal wrote: »

Because the admins have said no time and time again.

:S What are the reasons given?

AH has a reputation for being the de facto general discussion forum of Boards.ie. However, it is not. It's a hodgepodge of general discussion, trolling, banter, offensive jokes and a cohort of mods battling against the latter 3.

I don't think it's worth fighting all the crap on AH when there's a perfectly reasonable case for a separate, more heavily censored general discussion forum.

Jazzy

surely you just report the posts that are abusive? whether its racism, sexism or antisemitism its shouldnt make any difference.. as ive seen said a million times here "abuse is abuse".
if you feel the mods arent catching the actual abusive posts then yeah, so be it and good idea, but if you just feel slighted because you dont like some of the jokes (which if made badly, which they often are, just makes the user look like a pleb) then you might as well not be on after hours. theres plenty I dont like on AH, but i wouldnt want mods clearing up all that crap as people have the right to post crap, unfortunate but true.

liah

super-rush wrote: »

Thats a bit unfair don't you think. I've read back through the thread and you have been listened to and Mickey D has been cleaning up the thread as quickly as he can.

I mean in regards to the replies, but again, I was very obviously wrong considering not much has been done to clean up the crap in this thread.

Might as well close it so since it's such a non-issue.

Catari Jaguar

Tallon wrote: »

liah to answer your question, personal attacks are NEVER acceptable.

The kitchen thing is funny (from a fellas POW) but if you, or any other FM poster feels like this, report the crap out of it

To illiterate:
'Liah, get in the kitchen' IS abuse
'woman, get in the kitchen' is an attempt at humour, and should be seen as nothing more

It's not funny. It's derogatory.

Winters

cherub rock wrote: »

It's not funny. It's derogatory.

Some people find movies like Bruno absolutely disgusting and derogatory but it does not mean it will get banned. You can choose to ignore it and not see it, much like people have the choice to ignore the combined idiocy and quick posting crap that AH is and use more reasonable/serious forums for the same topics.

Catari Jaguar

TheZohan wrote: »

Ahem.... you're wrong, and I bet there wasn't one reported post, nobody on thread complained.

It was said by a man....

LizT

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

how in the name of hell is this trolling?

you're asking for opinions you dissaprove of to be shut out of the forum, but it's not censorship?

... how?

you can't just scream 'troll' and wipe your hands of the discussion.

It seems to me that they're not opinions, just gratuitous sexist remarks.

Super-Rush

liah wrote: »

I mean in regards to the replies, but again, I was very obviously wrong considering not much has been done to clean up the crap in this thread.

Might as well close it so since it's such a non-issue.

Again Mickey D was cleaning things up as best he could and the Feedback mods will no doubt be doing the same when they get a chance. We are happy to let the conversation continue in After Hours and anything out of line will be dealth with.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

cherub rock wrote: »

It was said by a man....

oh my god, seriously?

in a thread about sexism and the problems it brings you come out with that?

Dudess

I don't agree with infractions/warnings for mere joking around - e.g. "Get back into the kitchen" or even the "I'd do her" stuff (Look, if you find that distasteful as a woman, just ignore it). I think it is getting priorities all wrong - there are people who actively engage in posting attacks on women, and sometimes specific women, but these are slipping off the radar because the focus is wrongly (IMO) directed on sometimes benign jokes.

Winters

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

oh my god, seriously?

in a thread about sexism and the problems it brings you come out with that?

Kettle Black Pot?

Catari Jaguar

Clear here that women are second class citizens on boards.ie

Micky Dolenz

Dudess wrote: »

I don't agree with infractions/warnings for mere joking around - e.g. "Get back into the kitchen" or even the "I'd do her" stuff (Look, if you find that distasteful as a woman, just ignore it). I think it is getting priorities all wrong - there are people who actively engage in posting attacks on women, and sometimes specific women, but these are slipping off the radar because the focus is wrongly (IMO) directed on sometimes benign jokes.

I think we can all agree with that.

Hank Scorpio

And so the army march on

If people have problems with posts or threads report them and if needed make a helpdesk thread , that goes for lads or gals

This type of attention seeking mob attitude is laughable imo

liah

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

umm.. you are advocating censorship of AH. That is exactly what you are advocating. There's not even any wriggle room about it.

Winters wrote: »

I actually legally changed my middle name to "Troll".

AH is AH, a hey mix of random spouted idiocy with added idiocy. Why not have a similar thread on a more respectable forum where more logical and higher class posting is carried out in?

stovelid wrote: »

Light-hearted jokes about women, even 'sexist' ones should stay. Along with other topics. I'd hate to see another whittling away of previously-allowed funnehs.

Clearly some of the posts in the Sexual Harassment thread were nasty - the 'feminazi' ones already alluded to were the pits: even more so for me because they were aimed at a female poster that I respect a lot. That said: to me they breached more general boundaries anyway: personal attacks and trolling, for example

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

no, it really doesn't

there is quite a bit of censorship on AH. racism, travellerism, romaism. if you want censorship, just come out and admit it. we can at least have a discussion about that, but so long as you're outright refusing to be straight with us I don't see how this can proceed much further.

I feel given the current scandals I should point out I didn't intend to be homophobic when i asked that you 'be straight' with us.

--edit

damnit all, stop posting until i've had a chance to reply to the post I wanted to reply to

TheZohan wrote: »

Ahem.... you're wrong, and I bet there wasn't one reported post, nobody on thread complained.

Jazzy wrote: »

surely you just report the posts that are abusive? whether its racism, sexism or antisemitism its shouldnt make any difference.. as ive seen said a million times here "abuse is abuse".
if you feel the mods arent catching the actual abusive posts then yeah, so be it and good idea, but if you just feel slighted because you dont like some of the jokes (which if made badly, which they often are, just makes the user look like a pleb) then you might as well not be on after hours. theres plenty I dont like on AH, but i wouldnt want mods clearing up all that crap as people have the right to post crap, unfortunate but true.

One more time! :pac:

The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen! ") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

And can we stop the pedantry/nit-picking and blatant trolling?

Insect Overlord

Thaedydal wrote: »

Winters Post above reported, anyone else who think's it's out of line in this thread please report it also.

If you want to play things that way, then that post should be reported for back-seat moderation. Seeing as we're making an issue of all the rules applying to everyone and all that.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Liah those two are ex mods and trolls by any other name.
Don't let them get to you, and don't let them goad you into getting into a tit for tat with them.

This one too should be flagged for back-seat modding and for personal abuse. I'm not saying that your point is inaccurate. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency of fairness in this approach to feedback.


Back on topic: Liah makes a very good point in her OP, and it sums up the problem quite well. I can't argue against the opening post here at all.

My biggest problem tonight is the way in which every single comment that poked fun at the issue has been reacted to as if it were serious abuse. The posts that are truly offensive are being lost in the back-ground noise, with obvious jokes being flagged just to prove a point. The After Hours forum is an acquired taste, yes, but its unique comic atmosphere should not be sacrificed.

Tallon correctly says that no poster should be subjected to personal abuse, whether they be female or male. Sexist comments designedly posted to rile up individuals/groups of posters should be flagged as trolling/flaming/baiting/personal abuse and dealt with suitably strictly. That should go without saying.

These should not be confused with, or tarred with the same brush as, obvious jokes. After Hours is an informal discussion forum. It's supposed to be a relaxed alternative to the Humanities/Politics forums. Humour plays an important role in that. Perhaps a link should be provided to the Charter for the Humour Forum. If jokes meet the standards out-lined there, they should be laughed at and taken on the chin. If they're Nein 11 material, infract and ban as appropriate.

Every single sub-group in the country has been ridiculed in AH at one point or another. When this results in bullying it should be punished. However, all posters should show enough maturity to recognise the difference between irreverent discussion and bigotry. The difference is usually quite obvious. Tonight, alas, this kind of thinking has been forgotten about. There's been an immature back-lash against the original back-lash, because the latter has been too extreme in its execution.

AnnyHallsal

Dudess wrote: »

I don't agree with infractions/warnings for mere joking around - e.g. "Get back into the kitchen" or even the "I'd do her" stuff (Look, if you find that distasteful as a woman, just ignore it). I think it is getting priorities all wrong - there are people who actively engage in posting attacks on women, and sometimes specific women, but these are slipping off the radar because the focus is wrongly (IMO) directed on sometimes benign jokes.

That's all well and good but the two are related and the line between them at times unclear.

stovelid

liah wrote: »

One more time! :pac:

The majority of the women's opinions is basically that light-hearted jesting is fine (e.g. "Get in the kitchen! ") but personal attacks on posters who have done absolutely nothing to trigger it (e.g. dismissing posts with what amounts to "you're an ugly manhating feminazi" while ignoring any valid points a female poster has made) are unacceptable.

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

You should also quote the woman that said the same thing in this thread.

And no need for the bold type, to be honest. Looks histrionic.

Nevyn

liah wrote: »

Can we STOP focusing on jokes and start focusing on the offensive content which is the only thing we're complaining about?

And can we stop the pedantry/nit-picking and blatant trolling?

Not at this hour of the night when they know you have been been through in ah and they have sod all better to do, you've started the thread, honestly I would leave it until the morning until there are more sensible heads around.