Irish DNA blueprint more closely related to Basques

gurramok

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/dna-blueprint-of-the-irish-revealed-2333700.html

Indo wrote:

Major genetic surveys of Ireland and Britain have established that the gene pool of both islands is amongst the least diluted in Europe. The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of the ancestors of the Irish and British people were the pioneering settlers who arrived at the end of the last ice age between 17,000 and 8,000 years ago. The inescapable upshot of this is that the Irish are not Celts, any more than the English are Anglo-Saxons.

In fact, both the Irish and the British are Basques, with the Irish significantly more Basque than our neighbours across the pond, who've absorbed more migrations from Europe over the centuries.

Scientists estimate that Ireland's gene pool has changed remarkably little since the first hunter-gatherers from Iberia followed the retreating ice cap, beachcombing northwards and settling this newly exposed and empty land. The dilution rate for Ireland is estimated at a tiny 12%, against 20% for Wales and Cornwall, 30% for Scotland and 33% for England.

The genetics suggest that, with sea levels low, the Basques simply walked to Ireland, becoming cut off generations later when rising seas created the island we know. Ancient Irish legends say that there were six invasions or migrations from the south many generations before the Celts arrived around 300BC.

The evidence suggests that the Celtic language, fashions and technologies which are supposed to define our Irish heritage, were acquired as cultural accessories in the way that today's Irish schoolkids flounce about under the impression that they're gangsta rappers straight out of Compton or Beverly Hills brat-packers.

The Irish and Basques share by far the highest incidence of the R1b gene in Europe, which has a frequency of over 90% in Basque country and almost 100% along parts of Ireland's western seaboard.

If further proof were needed, there's the physical fact that the Basques are distinguished by a very high incidence of fair (and some reddish) hair, pale skin, blue eyes, and, apparently, sticky-out ears.

Can't find the Irish Times article on the subject. What are your thoughts on us being more closely related to the Basques?

Johnmb

This is old news. Although most reporters have a very poor understanding of the information they are reporting on. Both the Irish and the Basque populations are descended from the same ancient European population that existed way back when Ireland was first being settled, and neither have had as much new blood join them as have joined the other populations in other parts of Europe. There were no Basques at the time for us to be descended from them, just as there were no Irish for them to be descended from us. We are both descended from the same ancient population, but not from each other.

fontanalis

Johnmb wrote: »

This is old news. Although most reporters have a very poor understanding of the information they are reporting on. Both the Irish and the Basque populations are descended from the same ancient European population that existed way back when Ireland was first being settled, and neither have had as much new blood join them as have joined the other populations in other parts of Europe. There were no Basques at the time for us to be descended from them, just as there were no Irish for them to be descended from us. We are both descended from the same ancient population, but not from each other.

Exactly, it's also misleading to apply modern labels to ancient populations who knew of no such boundaries. The Basque region seems to have a very high rate of a certain genetic marker, something like 95% (in Ireland, Scotland and Wales it's around mid 70's and England around 60%). For a long time the Basques were thought to be unique in Europe from a genetic point of view (that title seems to go to the Finns), though their language being a language isloate is interesting.
I think the Atlantic seaboard played a big part in ancient Irish history so people from the West Coast may have deeper links than people on the East due to old links to England & Wales.
Anyway the timing of the moevemnts is now a bit all over the place, see below.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/a-tale-of-y-chromosomes-and-tea-leaves/

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

Exactly, it's also misleading to apply modern labels to ancient populations who knew of no such boundaries. The Basque region seems to have a very high rate of a certain genetic marker, something like 95% (in Ireland, Scotland and Wales it's around mid 70's and England around 60%). For a long time the Basques were thought to be unique in Europe from a genetic point of view (that title seems to go to the Finns), though their language being a language isloate is interesting.
I think the Atlantic seaboard played a big part in ancient Irish history so people from the West Coast may have deeper links than people on the East due to old links to England & Wales.
Anyway the timing of the moevemnts is now a bit all over the place, see below.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/09/a-tale-of-y-chromosomes-and-tea-leaves/

What haplogroup is that?

owenc

gurramok wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/dna-blueprint-of-the-irish-revealed-2333700.html


Can't find the Irish Times article on the subject. What are your thoughts on us being more closely related to the Basques?

Hmm that is interesting because one my relatives on my dads side did the y thingy dna test and got r1a. is that common...?

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

What haplogroup is that?

That's R1b. Here is more discussion on the issue,and somethig in R1a.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

That's R1b. Here is more discussion on the issue,and somethig in R1a.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/08/r1b-founder-effect-in-central-and.html

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

Ok, thanks hmmm interesting, so my family is not celtic then away farr out like 200ad? lol...... I know that mines is most common in scandanavia does anyone have any figures for the uk regions?

Revolution9

Sinn Fein and ETA will be delighted.

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

Ok, thanks hmmm interesting, so my family is not celtic then away farr out like 200ad? lol...... I know that mines is most common in scandanavia does anyone have any figures for the uk regions?

Don't get too carried away with things like celtic, I think it's more of a catch all term for peopel who speak one of the celtic languages (or spoke some of the extinct ones). I think geentics is good for an overall/geenral brush stroke movement of people. Trying to break it down to a micro level gets messy, imho.
Have a dig through the following list of entries, you might find more on R1a. My understanding is that it implies a more Easter origin (I think there was a glacial refuge around the Ukraine).
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/search/label/R1a

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

Don't get too carried away with things like celtic, I think it's more of a catch all term for peopel who speak one of the celtic languages (or spoke some of the extinct ones).

Ok so what group does it belong to then? The whole celtic anglo saxon thing etc etc i mean? I hope its not some asian thing!:eek: Where is it most common in the uk or the british isles?

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

Ok so what group does it belong to then? The whole celtic anglo saxon thing etc etc i mean? I hope its not some asian thing!:eek: Where is it most common in the uk or the british isles?

I think the people who fall under the terms celtic/saxon/pict/angle/jute/norman/viking all belong to R1b but there are many branches and whose to say that groups with modern names branched off as mutations occurred. Ultimatley I think the origin may be Asian or middle Eastern (the area around Kazakhstan and Tajikstan seemed to be important as the Ice Age ended), anyway I think the term Aryan in genetics implies more or less Asian as it was originally linguistc term.
It seems the whole thing may be revised as the article form the Discover Magazione blog said what was being attributed to 8,000 to 12,000 years may in fact be closer to 3,000 or 4,000. I think statistics is used a lot to judge mutation rates, trying to second guess population growth, family size etc

brianthebard

owenc wrote: »

Ok so what group does it belong to then? The whole celtic anglo saxon thing etc etc i mean? I hope its not some asian thing!:eek: Where is it most common in the uk or the british isles?

um, what's wrong with Asians? The term celtic, or at least the modern meaning, was pretty much invented by Matthew Arnold less than 200 years ago iirc. It doesn't have any meaningful connection to the past it pretends to describe. The same to an extent goes for the term anglo saxon.

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

I think the people who fall under the terms celtic/saxon/pict/angle/jute/norman/viking all belong to R1b but there are many branches and whose to say that groups with modern names branched off as mutations occurred. Ultimatley I think the origin may be Asian or middle Eastern (the area around Kazakhstan and Tajikstan seemed to be important as the Ice Age ended), anyway I think the term Aryan in genetics implies more or less Asian as it was originally linguistc term.
It seems the whole thing may be revised as the article form the Discover Magazione blog said what was being attributed to 8,000 to 12,000 years may in fact be closer to 3,000 or 4,000. I think statistics is used a lot to judge mutation rates, trying to second guess population growth, family size etc

So scandinavians and scottish people are originally asians! omg. :eek: I'm going to look and see what the numbers for my thing are in the uk and where it is most common.......i always thought that because its asian it would be in spain and the southeast but whatever.... Maybe that is where i get my blue eyes from!?

owenc

brianthebard wrote: »

um, what's wrong with Asians? The term celtic, or at least the modern meaning, was pretty much invented by Matthew Arnold less than 200 years ago iirc. It doesn't have any meaningful connection to the past it pretends to describe. The same to an extent goes for the term anglo saxon.

Well i want something to be proud of that i like, i mean i'm sure theirs some heritages that you would hate to be even part of!? I certainly don't like this haplogroup after reading about its history, its not very popular in the uk either i feel like an outcast. :rolleyes:

brianthebard

owenc wrote: »

Well i want something to be proud of that i like, i mean i'm sure theirs some heritages that you would hate to be even part of!? I certainly don't like this haplogroup after reading about its history, its not very popular in the uk either i feel like an outcast. :rolleyes:

Em no I'm not like that, plus I can accept that a lengthy series of random events may have led to my genetic make up without personal issue.

fontanalis

People ultimately have to come from somewhere, what were you expecting? Again it's more of a case of Asians and Europeans with R1a having common ancestry.
How can a Haplogroup be hated?

riffmongous

I guess the question is how much faith do you put in blood? I'd like to point out that the historical St.Patrick didn't even come from Ireland which I think says a lot.

For me I'm proud of my Gaelic heritage and at the end of the day didn't we all come from Africa?

owenc

AW well at least i know my scottish family originated in norway and not germany or france or spain or somewhere.... Please tell me that most scottish people in the north east have the r1a blood? and its just not my family i don't want to be an outcast. lol Where the picts r1a?

soundoulehead

owenc wrote: »

AW well at least i know my scottish family originated in norway and not germany or france or spain or somewhere.... Please tell me that most scottish people in the north east have the r1a blood? and its just not my family i don't want to be an outcast. lol Where the picts r1a?

Where do you think the Norwegians came from then? Or the French? Or anyone?
The Normans were French (although originally Scandinavian) and have influenced the gene pool both here and in Britain, and the Angles and Saxons both came from present day Germany. In the end, just because a certain gene shows up in greater percentages in a particular modern population doesn't mean a thing. What is this a gene for anyway? Is there such a thing as an Irish gene? Or a Norwegian gene? Studies like this, while interesting, will always be jumped upon by nationalists in an attempt to somehow justify the fact that the see themselves as seperate from other nationalists. I understand the interest in heritage, but this talk about being an "outcast" is a bit silly in fairness. There is no single gene of nationality. I don't mean to get at you when I write this, but when you say you are glad your family didn't come from Spain etc, you are presuming the concept of a Spain even existed thousands of years ago.

owenc

soundoulehead wrote: »

Where do you think the Norwegians came from then? The Normans were French (although originally Scandinavian) and have influenced the gene pool both here and in Britain, and the Angles and Saxons both came from present day Germany. In the end, just because a certain gene shows up in greater percentages in a particular modern population doesn't mean a thing. What is this a gene for anyway? Is there such a thing as an Irish gene? Or a Norwegian gene? Studies like this, while interesting, will always be jumped upon by nationalists in an attempt to somehow justify the fact that the see themselves as seperate from other nationalists. I understand the interest in heritage, but this talk about being an "outcast" is a bit silly in fairness. There is no single gene of nationality.

There is an irish gene if you do a y cromosone dna test it tells you where your ancestors where from and then it tells you your haplogroup result, it even gives you regions sometimes, like when my family did one the result came back as the north east of scotland where my name is actually one of the most common up there, it also told me that for a few centuries they lived in this area where i am now.

soundoulehead

I know about doing the tests - actually it is very interesting, if you go to the National Geographic website they have a programme called the Genome Project, where you can trace movement of genes. However, there really isn't an Irish gene, no more than there is a Swiss gene - and if there are genes that show up more in one population than in another, given the very specific nature and purpose of one particular gene, it amounts to very little difference in the macro world of the individual. Environment has more influence on nationality than anything else, in my opinion. For example, if I have the Irish gene, does that mean that were I born on a desert island I would grow up with an inexplicible urge to flail my legs about and shout "feck" at the parrots?

Enkidu

owenc wrote: »

Ok, thanks hmmm interesting, so my family is not celtic then away farr out like 200ad? lol...... I know that mines is most common in scandanavia does anyone have any figures for the uk regions?

Relating these Haplogroups to groups like the Celts is far too simplistic. The Celts refers to anybody who spoke a language in the Celtic language branch of Indo-European. It originally comes from the word Keltoi from Greek. Obviously the Celts would all have had similar customs and a very similar religion, since back then language groups carried religions in a way they don't now.

However R1a and R1b have no real relation to any of this. Both originate in Asia and most believe they are present in Europe now because of the Indo-Europeans. They were both probably Indo-European groups, possibly from two seperate expansions of the Indo-Europeans. Another possbility is that R1a is the Indo-Europeans and R1b a group closely related to them who adopted their customs. Haplogroup I on the other hand orginated in Europe and probably is the marker for the original population of Europe.

Most people in Western Europe are different only because they have different ratios of Haplogroups R1a, R1b and I. For instance take a look at the people on the west coast of Ireland and those on the east coast of England. They both have similar frequency of Haplogroup I. The difference is that they have slightly more Haplogroup R1a. So the difference between the Irish and the English is that we are slightly more descended from one Indo-European tribe and they're slightly more descended from another.

The only possible relation is that the Indo-European dialect that eventually became Proto-Celtic was spoken by people with a bit more descent from the R1b tribe.

Johnmb

owenc wrote: »

There is an irish gene if you do a y cromosone dna test it tells you where your ancestors where from and then it tells you your haplogroup result, it even gives you regions sometimes, like when my family did one the result came back as the north east of scotland where my name is actually one of the most common up there, it also told me that for a few centuries they lived in this area where i am now.

That's a little too simplistic a view of what your Y Chromosome actually tells you. It can lead to a fairly secure judgement as to where some of your ancestors came from, but that gets less and less secure the further back you go, and it is general, not specific to a particular person. There is no "Irish" gene, just an ancient gene that a lot of modern Irish still have, but it did not originate here. From an individual point of view, having that gene does not mean your ancestors were from here either. If 80% of the Irish population have it, and only 10% of the German population have it, then it is likely that if you have it your male line ancestors were Irish, but it is also possible that in your specific case one of them was a German who happened to fall within the 10% (and 10% of modern Germans is actually a higher number than 80% of modern Irish!). The further back you go, those nationalities become meaningless as they didn't exist, and to know for sure where your ancestors are actually likely to have come from you'd need to be able to test the dna from the ancient populations, not modern ones, something that is very difficult, in most cases impossible, to do.

brianthebard

owenc wrote: »

So scandinavians and scottish people are originally asians! omg. :eek: I'm going to look and see what the numbers for my thing are in the uk and where it is most common.......i always thought that because its asian it would be in spain and the southeast but whatever.... Maybe that is where i get my blue eyes from!?

It doesn't work like that, please stop taking these genetic tests that literally.

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

AW well at least i know my scottish family originated in norway and not germany or france or spain or somewhere.... Please tell me that most scottish people in the north east have the r1a blood? and its just not my family i don't want to be an outcast. lol Where the picts r1a?

Well R1a seems high in Scandanavia. You said befoe you traced a Norman background to your family, the Normans were descended form Danish Vikings so that amy expalin it. Also the East Coast of Scotland had a lot of interaction with the Vikings.
The people who are now called the Picts (Pict was a term given to people in unconquered areas of Britain by the Romans, as they expanded the people/area shrunk so the term was applied to Scotland) were more than likely R1b, can anyone tell me if the Picts called themselves Picts? As with the term celt it also has nationalist overtones, basically meaning not English/Saxon.

owenc

soundoulehead wrote: »

I know about doing the tests - actually it is very interesting, if you go to the National Geographic website they have a programme called the Genome Project, where you can trace movement of genes. However, there really isn't an Irish gene, no more than there is a Swiss gene - and if there are genes that show up more in one population than in another, given the very specific nature and purpose of one particular gene, it amounts to very little difference in the macro world of the individual. Environment has more influence on nationality than anything else, in my opinion. For example, if I have the Irish gene, does that mean that were I born on a desert island I would grow up with an inexplicible urge to flail my legs about and shout "feck" at the parrots?

How where they able to tell that i live in northern ireland and that my family originates in north east scotland?

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

Well R1a seems high in Scandanavia. You said befoe you traced a Norman background to your family, the Normans were descended form Danish Vikings so that amy expalin it. Also the East Coast of Scotland had a lot of interaction with the Vikings.
The people who are now called the Picts (Pict was a term given to people in unconquered areas of Britain by the Romans, as they expanded the people/area shrunk so the term was applied to Scotland) were more than likely R1b, can anyone tell me if the Picts called themselves Picts? As with the term celt it also has nationalist overtones, basically meaning not English/Saxon.

No i said a couple of weeks ago that surnamedb said my surname was imported into england and then scotland from normandy but since i have gotten the dna results this dosn't seem to be the case they seem to be norse, which is more likely in the north east of scotland

Enkidu

fontanalis wrote: »

can anyone tell me if the Picts called themselves Picts?

No, that's a Roman name. What they would have called themselves is unknown, since we know virtually nothing about their language. Not only are we unsure if their language was Celtic, we're unsure if it was even Indo-European.

fontanalis

Enkidu wrote: »

No, that's a Roman name. What they would have called themselves is unknown, since we know virtually nothing about their language. Not only are we unsure if their language was Celtic, we're unsure if it was even Indo-European.

Thanks, that's what I thought. I read somewhere that some Roman or greek scholar spoke of a semitic language being spoke in Scotland.
Don't some place names associated with the Picts use the prefix Aber for river or estuary have a similarity to Welsh?

soundoulehead

owenc wrote: »

How where they able to tell that i live in northern ireland and that my family originates in north east scotland?

What? They could tell from a DNA test where you are living at the moment? Because they'd have a hard job doing that with me, I can tell you that.

owenc

soundoulehead wrote: »

What? They could tell from a DNA test where you are living at the moment? Because they'd have a hard job doing that with me, I can tell you that.

They can i swear if i can get the website i'll show you. and i'm not lying it did say that on the dna test results. edit: i can't be bothered but it is there.

brianthebard

owenc wrote: »

They can i swear if i can get the website i'll show you. and i'm not lying it did say that on the dna test results. edit: i can't be bothered but it is there.

Did you ever enter your home address into their forms or website?

owenc

brianthebard wrote: »

Did you ever enter your home address into their forms or website?

OMG i'm not lying it even says on there website that they can detect regions.:rolleyes:

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

OMG i'm not lying it even says on there website that they can detect regions.:rolleyes:

I'd say it'd more a case of an educated guess.

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

OMG i'm not lying it even says on there website that they can detect regions.:rolleyes:

He is not saying you are lying.



Very strange that a DNA test can tell where you are currently living. Does this website have a side business of psychic readings?

fontanalis

owen; out of interest what haplotypes showed up?

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

owen; out of interest what haplotypes showed up?

I already told you r1a. Don't go into detail it was one of my dads brothers who did it so i don't know. all i know is it said northern ireland and north east scotland.

owenc

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

He is not saying you are lying.



Very strange that a DNA test can tell where you are currently living. Does this website have a side business of psychic readings?

I swear i'm not lying..

owenc

Nevermind i found it, and lol northern ireland is acutallly in the example lol : http://www.dna-worldwide.com/ancestry-testing/male-ancestry/

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

I already told you r1a. Don't go into detail it was one of my dads brothers who did it so i don't know. all i know is it said northern ireland and north east scotland.

Thought more than one may have showed up.

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

Thought more than one may have showed up.

Well i don't know i never seen it, did you read that thing? It proves i'm not lying and it can detect northern ireland lol, no clue how but it does!:eek:

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

Well i don't know i never seen it, did you read that thing? It proves i'm not lying and it can detect northern ireland lol, no clue how but it does!:eek:

From the website

As an example, where it was once achievable to tell if your Y-chromosome was Haplogroup I (Central European), we're now able to focus the test and determine if your Y-chromosome is in fact sub-haplogroup I1b2 (almost exclusively found in Sardinia).

What was the exact wording from the test?

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

From the website

As an example, where it was once achievable to tell if your Y-chromosome was Haplogroup I (Central European), we're now able to focus the test and determine if your Y-chromosome is in fact sub-haplogroup I1b2 (almost exclusively found in Sardinia).

What was the exact wording from the test?

I just told you that i have no clue i don't have the test he just told us that it said north east scotland, northern ireland and r1a haplogroup, don't ask me anymore as its pointless i don't know.

Rebelheart

fontanalis wrote: »

How can a Haplogroup be hated?

Be positive: anything is possible given the correct economic and political conditions!

Rebelheart

owenc wrote: »

Well i don't know i never seen it

I've never seen it.
I never saw it.

Never, ever, ever should you say "I never seen it". What next? "I done it", "I seen it"?

It's a disgrace that an Irishman has to tell this to a British loyalist like you. Owen. What would Her Majesty think?

owenc

Rebelheart wrote: »

I've never seen it.
I never saw it.

Never, ever, ever should you say "I never seen it". What next? "I done it", "I seen it"?

It's a disgrace that an Irishman has to tell this to a British loyalist like you. Owen. What would Her Majesty think?

Wrong, i do not riot or burn houses down so don't even brand me under that name. British unionist, btw northern irish comes first then british, but depending on where i am i saw either, so i will accept that. Now back on topic next person...

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

I just told you that i have no clue i don't have the test he just told us that it said north east scotland, northern ireland and r1a haplogroup, don't ask me anymore as its pointless i don't know.

It just seems from the website blurb that they can give a good idea of location based on the depth of the test. Lets say you moved to Paris for a year and you sent in your sample, I'd say you'd get a different location than Pariss.

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

It just seems from the website blurb that they can give a good idea of location based on the depth of the test. Lets say you moved to Paris for a year and you sent in your sample, I'd say you'd get a different location than Pariss.

So are you saying that my family are not from north east scotland ... you'd have to have the dna already in you it can't change, its passed down from father to son from father to son the whole way from the start of your family lol.

fontanalis

owenc wrote: »

So are you saying that my family are not from north east scotland ... you'd have to have the dna already in you it can't change, its passed down from father to son from father to son the whole way from the start of your family lol.

No I'm saying the reason it was accurate is that a marker from your family is shown to have links to Northern Ireland and when your cousins showed up then they said he was from Northern Ireland.
You're right the marker is passed from father to son, and it would pass regardless of location. Individuals move for many reasons independent of the markers they are carrying. Just saying within the movements of Haplotypes/markers there are thousands of individual stories that genetics can't tell.

owenc

fontanalis wrote: »

No I'm saying the reason it was accurate is that a marker from your family is shown to have links to Northern Ireland and when your cousins showed up then they said he was from Northern Ireland.
You're right the marker is passed from father to son, and it would pass regardless of location. Individuals move for many reasons independent of the markers they are carrying. Just saying within the movements of Haplotypes/markers there are thousands of individual stories that genetics can't tell.

No it wasn't my cousin it was my uncle who would have the exact same thingy as me on that test. I understand what you mean now, but there must be something as they just can't say "oh they come from scotland" if they aren't living there right now, there must be some sort of dna thing in scotland.

Johnmb

owenc wrote: »

No it wasn't my cousin it was my uncle who would have the exact same thingy as me on that test. I understand what you mean now, but there must be something as they just can't say "oh they come from scotland" if they aren't living there right now, there must be some sort of dna thing in scotland.

They can't actually say that you, or anyone else in your family, come from anywhere specific. What they can say is that the markers in your dna are most common in a specific population today, so that is most likely where you and your family originate, and even that can only go back so far in time. In this case they were spot on by the sounds of it, however the accuracy will differ from person to person.