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"The Origin of Specious Nonsense"

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    #4412
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    IrishKnight wrote: »
    Could you quote the first paragraph of the preface you took that from? Specifically the last line of said paragraph?
    Here it is :-
    "This book is my personal summary of the evidence that the 'theory' of evolution is actually a fact - as incontrovertible a fact as any in science. "

    Yes, he is saying that he believes that evolution is a fact ... something he has said on numerous occasions ... and he promises to provide the evidence that underpins his belief in evolution in the book ... but he also admits that he hadn't provided the evidence in his other books ...
    I didn't see the evidence for 'Pondkind to Mankind' Evolution in The Greatest Show On Earth ... but then I might have missed it.

    ... maybe I should have a pint with him, next time he is in Dublin ... to discuss it!!:D

    ... and if he doesn't drink alcohol ... a coffee will do!!!!:)


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    #4413
    IrishKnight
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭IrishKnight


    Emphasis is mine
    J C wrote: »
    Prof Dawkins did indeed admit that he hadn't presented the evidence for Evolution ...

    <snip>

    ... so he wrote at least six books ... and yet, on his own admission, he didn't present the evidence for Evolution ... which leads me to the reasonable conclusion that the evidence simply doesn't exist.

    J C wrote: »
    Here it is :-
    "This book is my personal summary of the evidence that the 'theory' of evolution is actually a fact - as incontrovertible a fact as any in science. "

    Yes, he is saying that he believes that evolution is a fact ... something he has said on numerous occasions ... and he promises to provide the evidence that underpins his belief in evolution in the book ... but he also admits that he hadn't provided the evidence in his other books ...

    You are correct in saying that he did not provide the proof in earlier books, yet the text you quote first time round made it sound as if Dawkins could not provide said proof. Yet the very book you quote mine said text from was a book he written to fill the very gap he identified.
    J C wrote: »
    ... maybe I should have a pint with him, next time he is in Dublin ... to discuss it!!:D

    ... and if he doesn't drink ... a coffee will do!!!!:)

    He is coming this summer for some atheist conference launching a new atheist organisation or some such. I'm sure you'll be able to hunt him down...


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    #4414
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    IrishKnight wrote: »
    He is coming this summer for some atheist conference launching a new atheist organisation or some such. I'm sure you'll be able to hunt him down...
    Ah ... no, I wouldn't want to cramp his style ... or cause him any embarrassment... so I'll content myself with just reading his books.


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    #4415
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    I'm convinced:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0DJU7lHebM


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    #4416
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    I'm convinced

    amazing how religious it sounds...
    "Your duty is to reproduce, toe the line OBEY or be punished, see reference to book of authority figure."
    Also within the text there is little that a creationist could actually object to (aside from the obviuosly abhorrent Nazi propoganda)... The survival of the fittest level of detail is well within the "micro"evolution realm.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0DJU7lHebM

    This guy has a rather annoying voice.
    The NLPesque suggestion of violence at the start is interesting. I'm sure it's not intentional... No real Scotsman Christian would even suggest violence as a solution...
    OK, I realise that this is crazy thinking but it's the first thing that popped into my mind when he said "take them out and shoot them in the head" ...

    edit: sorry that should be 'round up' not 'take out'...


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    #4417
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    The goal of female education must be to prepare them for motherhood. ( Mein Kampf, p. 460)

    :pac:


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    #4418
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    kiffer wrote: »
    amazing how religious it sounds...
    "Your duty is to reproduce, toe the line OBEY or be punished, see reference to book of authority figure."
    Also within the text there is little that a creationist could actually object to (aside from the obviuosly abhorrent Nazi propoganda)... The survival of the fittest level of detail is well within the "micro"evolution realm.



    This guy has a rather annoying voice.
    The NLPesque suggestion of violence at the start is interesting. I'm sure it's not intentional... No real Scotsman Christian would even suggest violence as a solution...
    OK, I realise that this is crazy thinking but it's the first thing that popped into my mind when he said "take them out and shoot them in the head" ...

    edit: sorry that should be 'round up' not 'take out'...
    It was an obvious 'turn of phrase' ... referring to the various mentions of evolution within textbooks ... so, how you can consider this 'voilent' is beyond me!!

    What he clearly meant is that it is more difficult to show the invalidity of evolutionist ideas within a texbook, when they are spread throughout it ... rather than if they were in one place within it.


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    #4419
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    sponsoredwalk wrote: »
    The goal of female education must be to prepare them for motherhood. ( Mein Kampf, p. 460)

    :pac:
    ... yes indeed, according to Evolutionist dogma ... successful reproduction is ultimately what it is all about ... and Hitler was 'into' giving Evolution a 'helping hand' ... in his own warped way!!

    ... from a Creationist perspective ... Salvation by our Creator God, is the primary goal ... and everything else follows on from that.


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    #4420
    sponsoredwalk
    Registered Users Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭sponsoredwalk


    J C wrote: »
    ... yes indeed, according to Evolutionist dogma ... successful reproduction is ultimately what it is all about ... and Hitler was 'into' giving Evolution a 'helping hand' ... in his own warped way!!

    I think you mean evolutionismist 'theory' was 'into' giving Hitler a 'helping
    hand' as it says he should on page 472 of 'On the Origin of the Species'.


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    #4421
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    J C wrote: »
    It was an obvious 'turn of phrase' ... referring to the various mentions of evolution within textbooks ... so, how you can consider this 'voilent' is beyond me!!

    clearly, of course... it would be mad of me to suggest that any Christian would become frustrated to the point of wishing viloence on his foe, after all Jesus wouldn't like that.
    J C wrote: »
    What he clearly meant is that it is more difficult to show the invalidity of evolutionist ideas within a texbook, when they are spread throughout it ... rather than if they were in one place within it.

    Yes. That is the point he was trying to make, I agree. Obviously I am reading far too much into this. It's just the way he delivers the line made me think for a moment that it was a suggestion and of that poor Creationist that flipped out last year and shot the poor girl and himself...

    Anyway.
    Enough of this talk, morbid and depressing it is... and back to fact vs fiction (whichever way one sees it)

    Evolution, Nazis, reproduction.
    yeah... Go forth and multiply is such an awful idea... I mean what sort of sick mind would come up with that... Bloody breeders, those Shaking Quakers had the right idea.

    Look J C, while we may point out that much of our (humans in general) moral framework is based on evolved behaviours, instincts and so on... It does not follow that, in believing we are all descended from a common origin, we should or do use evolution as some god like figure.

    Of course it is convinent for you as a creationist to suggest that we have made a Golden Calf, because it's an idea that other religeous people will get... but for us it's just a description of things that happened, are happening and will continue to happen as long as people, plants and animals continue to be born reproduce and die.
    Whereas for you as a Christian it is about faith. If you don't have faith in God, the bible and so on you will be tortured for all time in hell...
    Like an extended Pascal's wager, it's not worth the risk.
    If at judgement day you stand there and if God says oh yeah, the Universe was that old, that whole deep time evolution thing was totally the way I set the show up, thought it was pretty elegant myself... He's not going to say "ah into the fire with you" for taking the bible too literally.
    But the otherway round, not taking it literally enough... He might.

    You're constantly under duress, from an entity that can read your mind, if you admit, even to yourself that we've made a convinving argument it might risk hellfire...

    No time to proof read. Is a bit of a waffly post, sorry.


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    #4422
    Doc_Savage
    Registered Users Posts: 677 ✭✭✭Doc_Savage


    J C wrote: »
    ... yes indeed, according to Evolutionist dogma ........

    it's shocking how you misuse that word so much, you are absolutely entitled to call ideas and discussions on evolution dogmatic, but it is incorrect to call it a dogma.


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    #4423
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    J C wrote: »
    Firstly Jesus isn't a baby ... He is the Second Person of the Triune Creator God of the Universe.
    Jesus is dead, JC. Get over it :)
    J C wrote: »
    Secondly, I'm not lying ... and I quoted Prof Dawkins exactly and precisely.
    You certainly did not "quote" Dawkins, you paraphrased him intentionally inaccurately.

    In this quote:
    J C wrote: »
    there is no evidence for Pondkind to Mankind Evolution. ... even Prof Dawkins admits as much ...or if there is such evidence, it has eluded him in his writings!!!
    you claimed that Dawkins said that there is "no evidence for Pondkind to Mankind Evolution".

    Whereas, what Dawkins actually said was (and I'm trusting that you're not misquoting him here):
    Richard Dawkins wrote:
    Looking back on those books, I realized that the evidence for evolution itself was nowhere explicitly set out, and that this was a serious gap that I needed to close.
    Which means that Dawkins knew about such evidence, but hadn't produced a book about it.
    J C wrote: »
    ... and stop lying about me lying
    You have misrepresented his views entirely and that amounts to deceit.


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    #4424
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Doc_Savage wrote: »
    it's shocking how you misuse that word so much, you are absolutely entitled to call ideas and discussions on evolution dogmatic, but it is incorrect to call it a dogma.
    ... just like any other faith, Evolutionism has a number of contentions or dogmas ...
    ... some Evolitionists are dogmatic about these dogmas ... and others consider them to be metaphorical !!!:):D


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    #4425
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    kiffer wrote: »
    You're (J C) constantly under duress, from an entity that can read your mind, if you admit, even to yourself that we've made a convinving argument it might risk hellfire...
    ... none of what you say above is actually is the case.
    As a Saved Christian ... I am assured of my Salvation ... so there is no possobility of me going to Hell, irrespective of what I think from now on.

    I have no doubt that there are Saved Chrisitians who are Evolutionists ... and this doesn't threaten their Salvation.

    God is a God of freedom and love ... so I never feel under duress from Him ... just great love and respect for Him


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    #4426
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robindch wrote: »
    ... lying makes baby Jesus cry.
    robindch wrote: »
    Jesus is dead, JC. Get over it :)
    ... one minute you say Jesus is a baby ... and next minute you say He is dead ... you really are very very confused.
    Anyway, God is alive ... and you had better get used to it!!!:)

    robindch wrote: »
    You certainly did not "quote" Dawkins, you paraphrased him intentionally inaccurately.
    I quoted him exactly ... I also gave my opinion on what he had to say ... and these are two separate activities!!!
    robindch wrote: »
    In this quote:
    Originally Posted by J C
    there is no evidence for Pondkind to Mankind Evolution. ... even Prof Dawkins admits as much ...or if there is such evidence, it has eluded him in his writings!!!
    you claimed that Dawkins said that there is "no evidence for Pondkind to Mankind Evolution".

    Whereas, what Dawkins actually said was (and I'm trusting that you're not misquoting him here):
    Originally Posted by Richard Dawkins
    Looking back on those books, I realized that the evidence for evolution itself was nowhere explicitly set out, and that this was a serious gap that I needed to close    .

    Which means that Dawkins knew about such evidence, but hadn't produced a book about it.You have misrepresented his views entirely and that amounts to deceit.
    I clearly and precisely quoted Prof Dawkins ... and gave my opinion of what he said. Of course, I accept that Prof Dawkins genuinely believes that Evolution is a fact ... and I always knew that he hadn't provided evidence for 'Pondkind to Mankind' Evolution in his books.
    I am actually (pleasantly) surprised by his frankness about not providing the evidence for Evolution in his previous books.
    My respect for the man has increased ... and it was very high already.:)


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    #4427
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Is there a way to ignore threads currently? I might bring it to Suggestions.


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    #4428
    IrishKnight
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭IrishKnight


    liamw wrote: »
    Is there a way to ignore threads currently? I might bring it to Suggestions.

    Ya, it's called ignoring them :p :rolleyes:


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    #4429
    himnextdoor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭himnextdoor


    J C wrote: »
    ... one minute you say Jesus is a baby ... and next minute you say He is dead ... you really are very very confused.
    Anyway, God is alive ... and you had better get used to it!!!:)

    But you do have to question the intelligence of a designer who makes haemoglobin 250 times more efficient at absorbing carbon-monoxide than it is at absorbing oxygen.


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    #4430
    IrishKnight
    Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭IrishKnight


    himnextdoor wrote: »
    But you do have to question the intelligence of a designer who makes haemoglobin 250 times more efficient at absorbing carbon-monoxide than it is at absorbing oxygen.

    Let us not forget that he also put a playground next to a sewage system :rolleyes::p


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    #4431
    Genghiz Cohen
    Registered Users Posts: 7,182 ✭✭✭Genghiz Cohen


    IrishKnight wrote: »
    Let us not forget that he also put a playground next to a sewage system :rolleyes::p

    And a few organs that randomly explode and kill you.


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    #4432
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    J C wrote: »
    ...one minute you say Jesus is a baby ... and next minute you say He is dead ... you really are very very confused.
    Technically, what I wrote is referred to as a "joke" -- something in which words are arranged in certain forms for humorous or ironic effect. Try it sometime! :)
    J C wrote: »
    I clearly and precisely quoted Prof Dawkins
    You started off by deliberately misrepresenting him in order to make it appear that he supports your point of view.

    If this is the best that creationists can do -- and it certainly seems it is -- is it any wonder that creationists are dismissed as a bunch of charlatans by real scientists?


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    #4433
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    koth wrote: »
    You realise that quote you posted is an explanation by Dawkins as to what lead him to write "the Greatest Show on Earth". His book that sets out the evidence for evolution.

    It's amazing what you can achieve by quoting a sentence outside of the paragraph it was written in. Since J C claims to have read the Greatest Show On Earth it is obvious that his out of context partial quotation is deliberate. How dishonest of him.


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    #4434
    kiffer
    Registered Users Posts: 2,097 ✭✭✭kiffer


    J C wrote: »
    ... none of what you say above is actually is the case.
    As a Saved Christian ... I am assured of my Salvation ... so there is no possobility of me going to Hell, irrespective of what I think from now on.
    ... Well... Unless you have somesort of fall from grace moment, it's not like you have carte blanche to think/do what ever you want. (not that I'm suggesting that you want to do or think anything awful)
    I have no doubt that there are Saved Chrisitians who are Evolutionists ... and this doesn't threaten their Salvation.
    I'm not sure I believe that you think that.
    I think maybe you think that if they were really saved that God would show them the light and they'd flip sides. I mean otherwise they don't really have Faith in God, and as such aren't saved?
    Assuming justification by Faith alone.
    Actually the creationist possition activly drives people away from the middle ground. You are in my opinion harming Christianity by maintaining a unfoundedly literal interpretation of the Biblical creation allegory.
    Not that I mind you harming Christianity so much...
    God is a God of freedom and love ... so I never feel under duress from Him ... just great love and respect for Him

    Well, you'd have to say that or you wouldn't be "saved" anymore.
    It's a bit catch22, if it was true you'd say it, if it was false you'd still say it because if not... unending torture.
    Heck, you'd have to think it too... There are 4 lights J C!


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    #4435
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Lying? Bad science? Surely the two aren't linked!


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    #4436
    POINTBREAK
    Registered Users Posts: 2,135 ✭✭✭POINTBREAK


    Quote:
    God is a God of freedom and love ... so I never feel under duress from Him ... just great love and respect for Him

    Lets have a look at that one.
    The basic message from God is Love me or Burn in hell forever.
    He gives us free will to do what we are told.
    He is credited with killing over 2 million of his flock in the Bible.
    -
    hmmmmmmm no thanks.


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    #4437
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    IrishKnight wrote: »
    Ya, it's called ignoring them :p :rolleyes:

    Damn, why did they ever implement the ignore users function? You should let the admins know that people can just ignore things.


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    #4438
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    robindch wrote: »
    Technically, what I wrote is referred to as a "joke" -- something in which words are arranged in certain forms for humorous or ironic effect. Try it sometime! :)You started off by deliberately misrepresenting him in order to make it appear that he supports your point of view.

    If this is the best that creationists can do -- and it certainly seems it is -- is it any wonder that creationists are dismissed as a bunch of charlatans by real scientists?
    ... I see ... plenty of fun and games ... and the occasional unfounded comment about Creation Scientists ... but never any evidence for Evolution!!!:eek:


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    #4439
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    POINTBREAK wrote: »
    Quote:
    God is a God of freedom and love ... so I never feel under duress from Him ... just great love and respect for Him

    Lets have a look at that one.
    The basic message from God is Love me or Burn in hell forever.
    He gives us free will to do what we are told.
    He is credited with killing over 2 million of his flock in the Bible.
    -
    hmmmmmmm no thanks.
    God is a God of perfect justice and perfect love ... we are free to choose which aspect of God that we want Him to apply to us ... I have decided to accept His perfect love ... whether you also decide to accept His love ... or be on the receiving end of His perfect justice, is entirely up to you.


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    #4440
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,406 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    J C wrote: »
    the occasional unfounded comment
    When you've been caught lying about somebody, the done thing is to apologize -- I'm sure that most, and probably all, people here will accept an apology.


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    #4441
    J C
    Registered Users Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    kiffer wrote: »
    ... Well... Unless you have somesort of fall from grace moment, it's not like you have carte blanche to think/do what ever you want. (not that I'm suggesting that you want to do or think anything awful)
    ... Saved no matter what ... but eternally grateful to God ... and considerate of my fellow man ... no worries ... and no fear!!!

    kiffer wrote: »
    ... I'm not sure I believe that you think that.
    I think maybe you think that if they were really saved that God would show them the light and they'd flip sides. I mean otherwise they don't really have Faith in God, and as such aren't saved?
    ... you could have a point ...
    ... however, its possible that somebody could believe that Jesus Christ is Lord ... and that God used 'evolution' to produce Man.

    kiffer wrote: »
    Assuming justification by Faith alone.
    Actually the creationist possition activly drives people away from the middle ground. You are in my opinion harming Christianity by maintaining a unfoundedly literal interpretation of the Biblical creation allegory.
    Not that I mind you harming Christianity so much...
    The truth will set you free ... and it cannot damage genuine Christianity!!!!

    kiffer wrote: »
    Well, you'd have to say that or you wouldn't be "saved" anymore.
    It's a bit catch22, if it was true you'd say it, if it was false you'd still say it because if not... unending torture.
    Heck, you'd have to think it too... There are 4 lights J C!
    He is also a God of justice ... so you are correct its a choice ... a fairly obvious choice, in my opinion!!!:)


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