Weights for MMA

TheTMO

I am just wondering what is the most effective workouts for MMA? I am currently undecided. Right now I am doing very light weights but loads of reps with a view to increasing my cardio but at the same time surely its important to do very heavy weights and low reps to increase and maintain explosive strength?

Jason McCabe

I would tend to push our lads towards explosive olympic style lifts. Heavy weights with low reps.

I personally feel if you have that strength plus technique you will only need to devlve into it when needed which will gas you less.

I'm sure others will disagree. I know when I was at my fittest for fighting was when I was at my strongest.

Clive

TheTMO wrote: »

I am just wondering what is the most effective workouts for MMA? I am currently undecided. Right now I am doing very light weights but loads of reps with a view to increasing my cardio but at the same time surely its important to do very heavy weights and low reps to increase and maintain explosive strength?

How long is a piece of string? It really depends on where you are and where you're going. As a general rule of thumb, if you don't have a fight in the next two or three months your main focus should be getting stronger, in my opinion.

theboxingclinic

i would tend to agree with clive and jason. explosive strength for both take downs and striking is incredibly important so olympic lifts are vital. mix everything else in with a combat theme, kbs, sandbags, tractor tyres, core work etc. isometric work can alse be very beneficial for the grappling side of mma for both defense and attack. but as clive says how long is a piece of string?

Barry.Oglesby

TheTMO wrote: »

I am just wondering what is the most effective workouts for MMA? I am currently undecided. Right now I am doing very light weights but loads of reps with a view to increasing my cardio but at the same time surely its important to do very heavy weights and low reps to increase and maintain explosive strength?

Off season: Increase strength, increase rate of force
How: 3-5 sets of 3-5 reps of pull ups, bench press, deadlift, squat. Y'know, the unsexy stuff no one writes about. I'd wager that approximately 0.1% of people reading this would have a big enough training age to benefit from Olympic lifting.

In season: Maintain strength gains, increase work capacity
How: Strength as above. Conditioning using any number of means but specifically those which are 1) unlikely to cause injury and 2) increase work capacity. Weighted conditioning blocks for time are a good example. Intervals on your favourite piece of cardio equipment or on the road if you've none are another.

Swinging hammers, flipping tyres, carrying shovels, stoking steam train engines etc. all look awesome and sexy but if you want bang for your buck and don't want to tear a bicep, get off those tyres and onto a rowing machine, or a sled, or carry something extremely heavy for distance or time.

About a year ago one of my lads suggested we get a tyre for conditioning (we had a C2 rower) and how all "the pros" were using sledge hammers or pick axes or piledrivers or whatever the fad was. I told him well **** if that's all you want to do for training then I need my garden dug. Come over Saturday.

He never showed.

theboxingclinic

i havnt been on this forum for long so im not sure of the training age of the readers. i definitley agree that the basics of squat, lunge, deadlift, push pess should form the foundation of your training program before progressing to olympic lifting.
having said that i dont think you need much of a training age to progress to olympic lifting once the coaching is of a high quality. thats taking into account that there are not any postural dysfunctions that need to be addressed before correct form can be practised.
i know with a lot of my patients who represent munster u age rugby teams a lot of effort is put into the foundations of lifting at jnr level and then they progress to olympic lifting soon after (form and very light weights being the goal before progressing to heavy weight) having said that i know many people training for years and who should have the training age to start olympic lifting but they still cannot squat correctly. so wheras training age is a consideration it is in my opinion more important to have a good coaching in the techniques of lifting.

Pontificatus

**not a fighter**

I heard someone describe the current obsession with Olympic lifting for all sports as subscribing to the cult of explosiveness. It was the same with kettlebells for a while and if i'm smart enough to predict the next trend i'll be a rich man. Bulgarian bags anyone?

I'd like to learn to do the Olympic lift because they look like fun but i have other priorities in my training at the moment after having my skinfolds done yesterday. It does serve, however, to illustrate the point of want vs need. I need to be better conditioned, i need to be stronger, i really fckin need to be more technical.

Like Barry and Clive have said, basic strength and balance should be fundamental to your work.

Rename squat, deadlift, bench, overhead press and pullups something fancy like Mobile. Hostile. Agile. and you'll have a queue out the door.

theboxingclinic

good points. however i wouldnt look at changing fads as being negative.
the greater the variety of methods with which we can use to condition our bodies the less likely we are to become bored with our routines so bring on Bulgarian Bags
on a serious note however I wouldnt group olympic lifting as a fad like kbs, sand bags, tractor tyres etc. explosiveness in combat sports is very important and ive seen the benefits in other sports also like with the cork footballers(was also going to say hurlers but thought better of it) and it has been used in other sports for quite a few years now without fading out.

Will Heffernan

theboxingclinic wrote: »

good points. however i wouldnt look at changing fads as being negative.

I disagree. See the thing is that athletes careers are relatively short and fighters probably more so that many others...a year here a year there wasted eats into the 'what might have been' factor.

MMA is light years behind other professional sports...so far behind in some cases it's almost pointless carrying on a conversation with some people 'working' in the industry because they just don't even share the same vocabulary. Not being an a-hole just stating that as fact...people are trying their best...they just don't have the experience or training.

The problem this causes is that people are easily convinced and strength and conditioning coaches read articles on new training methods and it is like they are being effected by old Jedi mind trick.

What looks cool and what is effective are to different thing.

the greater the variety of methods with which we can use to condition our bodies the less likely we are to become bored with our routines so bring on Bulgarian Bags

That is the 'actual' problem...it's the boredom.

on a serious note however I wouldnt group olympic lifting as a fad like kbs, sand bags, tractor tyres etc.

It definitely a fad. If it comes and goes like a fad...that pretty much makes it a fad. A fighter 'getting into' Oly lifting for a few months or a cycle of training makes it a fad.

explosiveness in combat sports is very important and ive seen the benefits in other sports also like with the cork footballers(was also going to say hurlers but thought better of it) and it has been used in other sports for quite a few years now without fading out.

I love it when people do this and you get this in all sports...Cork did it so it must be good. Do you want me to tell you the counties that have been 'using' Oly lifting...over the last few years that it has done absolutely feck all for.

This is the problem...people see a video of Randy doing a circuit training workout...so by extension it must be good if Randy does it...it was great for Randy because he got paid a bundle of cash for it and never had to do it again.

Pontificatus

theboxingclinic wrote: »

good points. however i wouldnt look at changing fads as being negative.
the greater the variety of methods with which we can use to condition our bodies the less likely we are to become bored with our routines so bring on Bulgarian Bags

I agree but not to the point of overcomplication. A little imagination goes a long way in spicing things up (may or may not apply to other facets of life :pac: )

theboxingclinic wrote: »

on a serious note however I wouldnt group olympic lifting as a fad like kbs, sand bags, tractor tyres etc. explosiveness in combat sports is very important and ive seen the benefits in other sports also like with the cork footballers(was also going to say hurlers but thought better of it) and it has been used in other sports for quite a few years now without fading out.

I agree with you that Oly lifting in general is not a fad but its application to combat sports may be. A simple way to judge its effectiveness would be a cost vs benefit analysis. Without arguing which gets the best results, lets say the difference is minimal on the results end and as such the difference would be on the front end ie the teaching and application of the techniques. The main strength lifts are easy to teach, by comparison how easy are the Oly lifts to learn?

The Cork GAA is actually a great example which can be applied to fighters. If one fighter is ahead of the curve is terms of results, then other fighters may feel like they need to do the same training to catch up when in fact this isnt always the case. Assessment of where they are and where they want to be will often lead them on a different curve to reach the same point. I'm pretty sure there was an argument regarding generalisation vs specialisation the other day.

Edit: Damn you Will!!

theboxingclinic

Will Heffernan wrote: »

I disagree. See the thing is that athletes careers are relatively short and fighters probably more so that many others...a year here a year there wasted eats into the 'what might have been' factor."
i disagree, if you take the best of different types of training techniques and discard the crap it cant bad. psychological burnout is a big factor in training, keeping it a little fresh is important rather then doing the same thing year in year out.



will heffernan "MMA is light years behind other professional sports...so far behind in some cases it's almost pointless carrying on a conversation with some people 'working' in the industry because they just don't even share the same vocabulary. Not being an a-hole just stating that as fact...people are trying their best...they just don't have the experience or training."

i dont just work in this industry. the background of people posting may be different to what you expect. i would love to hear your opinions on what is beneficial for fighters? you should be getting your thoughts out there rather then presuming people will not listen to u

will heffernan "It definitely a fad. If it comes and goes like a fad...that pretty much makes it a fad. A fighter 'getting into' Oly lifting for a few months or a cycle of training makes it a fad."
i couldnt disagree more, olympic lifting ahs been around in competitive sports for far too long to be a fad.
it being used as part of a training cycle also does not make it a fad. if we use this criteria then sparring would be a fad.


will heffernan "I love it when people do this and you get this in all sports...Cork did it so it must be good. Do you want me to tell you the counties that have been 'using' Oly lifting...over the last few years that it has done absolutely feck all for."

so your saying olympic lifting is not beneficial?

theboxingclinic

QUOTE=Pontificatus;68017014]I agree but not to the point of overcomplication. A little imagination goes a long way in spicing things up (may or may not apply to other facets of life :pac: )

im with you there




pontificatus "I agree with you that Oly lifting in general is not a fad but its application to combat sports may be. A simple way to judge its effectiveness would be a cost vs benefit analysis. Without arguing which gets the best results, lets say the difference is minimal on the results end and as such the difference would be on the front end ie the teaching and application of the techniques. The main strength lifts are easy to teach, by comparison how easy are the Oly lifts to learn?"

much harder, the basic lifts must be mastered firts before attempting any oly lift and were i to choose between the basic lifts and oly lifting then the basic ones would win each time.

pointificatus "The Cork GAA is actually a great example which can be applied to fighters. If one fighter is ahead of the curve is terms of results, then other fighters may feel like they need to do the same training to catch up when in fact this isnt always the case. Assessment of where they are and where they want to be will often lead them on a different curve to reach the same point. I'm pretty sure there was an argument regarding generalisation vs specialisation the other day"

again i agree but i think in a sport where being explosive is an advantage and oly lifting, as well as basic lifts and plyos help this then it is beneficial.
i think you have to genaralise and sepcialise. this comes down to postural considerastions, weaknesses and strengths, type of fighter etc

]

Barry.Oglesby

Can you guys clean up your quote tags? I don't know who is saying what.

theboxingclinic

would you not post a sample training program will?
also apologies for quotes, i need to figure out how that works a little bit better

Barry.Oglesby

If you just highlight the piece of text you want to quote when you're writing and then press the little quote button on the text editor when you're replying it does it for you.

Barry.Oglesby

theboxingclinic wrote: »

much harder, the basic lifts must be mastered firts before attempting any oly lift and were i to choose between the basic lifts and oly lifting then the basic ones would win each time.

I think we agree there. The disagreement we're having is where Oly lifting fits into a programme and indeed if it fits in at all.

again i agree but i think in a sport where being explosive is an advantage and oly lifting, as well as basic lifts and plyos help this then it is beneficial.

This is precisely my point. At a very basic level we're talking about rate of force. How quickly can someone express their strength. If someone has very little strength, you can do all the power training in the world, snatching, swinging and cleaning, and maybe you'd get faster but what's the point if you're only moving the force of a pin hammer? What most people should be doing is developing themselves into sledge hammers and then moving them faster.

Everyone and I mean everyone wants to learn how to snatch because it looks awesome. I like the snatch it's an incredible exercise, but with all the will in the world I won't have a bodyweight snatch until maybe a year from now if I started today. On the other hand, I could have a bodyweight push press in a shorter time period and with less risk of injury, and less time spent on technique (remember we're improving fighters not coaching weightlifters). Same with a deadlift, bench, squat, pull up. They can all be improved safely, quickly and with little risk of injury.

i think you have to genaralise and sepcialise. this comes down to postural considerastions, weaknesses and strengths, type of fighter etc

][/QUOTE]

Ryan Roddy

I admit that I am no expert so feel free to pick this apart, but here is how I look at it:

To cut a long story short I basically think that everything outside of high end power/strength range (by that I mean 'cardio', strength endurance, isometric strength) can be developed using sparring and padwork. So I spend very little time on running or circuit training as I don't feel they are an efficient use of my time. A lot of the top fighters have this mentality (GSP being the most famous)

However strength/Power development takes years so I take separate sessions for that. As I was once told, if you want to get strong lift heavy things. My sessions are fairly simple:

- keep my reps below 5 for a set
- stick to heavy compound exercises
- Squat / dead lift
- Cleans / snatches (I am being coached for these plus I had to get all my other lifts up to a certain % before starting these)
- Push press, Bench press, weighted pull ups

I may do slight variations, plus change weights and sets and add plyos in but there is nothing complicated about it - works for me.

Off season il do three sessions of strength a week, in season il do 2 with a view to maintaining the gains made in the off season. Also I taper off the weight 4 weeks out from a fight.

All the rest of my time is spent on mats doing something fight related.

theboxingclinic

thanks a lot

theboxingclinic

i couldnt agree more with what you barry. no matter what else you do the basics of strength training are fundamental. considering my fav exercise is the deadlift i couldnt think any other way. as you say, the issue is wether oly lifting is beneficial and i beleive it is very beneficial as once as the fighter has been working on strength first. if we are to really break it down then he/she would start with stability, progress to strength and then power.
do you think in your opionion that oly lifting is actually beneficial for mma

Jason McCabe

I would tend to disagree that Strength and Conditioing for MMA is in the dark ages

It might be in this country in the majority of gyms. But I know Dan Hardy is working with Phil Richards as are quite a few other MMA fighters in the UK.

I look at GSP, Hughes, Carwin etc.. and the guys training in the top gyms in the states and most of them are doing serious programs.

Now compare it to Rugby or American football and yes we have a lot to improve.

I think the biggest issue we have is people watching Fedor doing kettle bells and thinking thats all they need or randy's circuit. These guys are good becuase of their technical capabilites not becuase of their strength programs

With the length of the rounds that are fought in MMA strength and conditioing is a serious weapon which if you dismiss will cost you in the long run. IMO.

Barry.Oglesby

Ryan Roddy wrote: »

feel free to pick this apart

Woohoo! Carte blanche!

To cut a long story short I basically think that everything outside of high end power/strength range (by that I mean 'cardio', strength endurance, isometric strength) can be developed using sparring and padwork.

I see your point and I don't think it's wrong but I do think it would have to be very carefully measured. Also "cardio" is only one facet of conditioning. There are other pathways to worry about.

So I spend very little time on running or circuit training as I don't feel they are an efficient use of my time. A lot of the top fighters have this mentality (GSP being the most famous)

This is actually a very interesting point. There's a saying I hate which is "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" but it's a good way of stating what happens when something new comes along. Without proper testing, there's no way of knowing whether you or I need more aerobic work. Some fighters could benefit hugely from more aerobic work. Some do too much. I think the move from running long slow distances is a good thing but there are actually people out there who would benefit from steady state cardiovascular work. Everyone is different and good coaching is what is required to decide programming. The prevailing wind is blowing in the direction of power work at the moment and I think that's changed a lot of people's minds but lets not forget that power is only one part of the Strength and Conditioning equation.

However strength/Power development takes years so I take separate sessions for that.

Not necessarily

Off season il do three sessions of strength a week, in season il do 2 with a view to maintaining the gains made in the off season. Also I taper off the weight 4 weeks out from a fight.

All the rest of my time is spent on mats doing something fight related.

Sounds good.

TheTMO

Interesting responses so far.

I've been reading up and I've noticed that Lesnar seems to do a pretty straight forward bodybuilding routine in the off season and then does more reps and more cardiovascular work leading up to a fight.

You see this is where I get confused because I hear from some people that a bodybuilding physique is terrible for MMA because of the lactic acid build up and how much you gas when you have an overly muscular frame (even Pudzianoski has lost most of his muscle for his upcoming fight) yet Lesnar seems to train like a BBer as does GSP, Liddell and Ortiz?

Ryan Roddy

TheTMO wrote: »

You see this is where I get confused because I hear from some people that a bodybuilding physique is terrible for MMA because of the lactic acid build up and how much you gas when you have an overly muscular frame (even Pudzianoski has lost most of his muscle for his upcoming fight) yet Lesnar seems to train like a BBer as does GSP, Liddell and Ortiz?

Its all a bit confusing, but GSP does not do body building exercises really. I wish I could find the interview but there is one where he breaks it down. He does a lot of compound lifts, Olympic lifts and plyometrics - pretty much everything else is sparring and padwork.

I would say stay away from body-building. The strongest, most powerful guys in the world are Olympic lifters (they out jump basketball players), and you could add in power lifters so I would tend to stick to the type of exercises they do.

Almost everything in mma involves powerful compound movements so I stick to powerful compound lifts.

Will Heffernan

Heaps of good stuff in this thread already...not trying to rain on anyones parade...and happy to accept peoples opinions and views...as I hope people will just take mine as that...as in...that I am expressing my views and opinions based on my experience.

Ryan Roddy wrote: »

Its all a bit confusing, but GSP does not do body building exercises really. I wish I could find the interview but there is one where he breaks it down. He does a lot of compound lifts, Olympic lifts and plyometrics - pretty much everything else is sparring and padwork.

1. What you read in magazines and articles and what you see on youtube either
a) Is absolutely nothing like what happens in reality.
b) Is simply a snapshot of one session done for one specific purpose.
c) Is just what the fighter says they do because that is what they are paid to say.

I would say stay away from body-building.

I agree with that as a general rule although it does have its place in some circumstances.

The strongest, most powerful guys in the world are Olympic lifters (they out jump basketball players), and you could add in power lifters so I would tend to stick to the type of exercises they do.

Oly lifting is great...once again in the right circumstance.

The Oly lifters being faster than sprinters over 10 m and jumping higher than basketballers is one of those urban legends that is trotted out all the time...it's not true...people always say they read it in a research paper...they didn't. Oly lifters are brilliant and they are great athletes but they don't out out jump basketballers.

Almost everything in mma involves powerful compound movements so I stick to powerful compound lifts.

This is true....power, strength and work capacity.

Niall0

From an interview with GSP

http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/interviews/viewarticle.php?id=5164



"FO: Is training the nervous system for explosiveness the next big thing in mixed martial arts?

I don’t do strength and conditioning. The reason I lift weights is to make me more marketable, to make my shape more symmetric. I don’t life weights to have an effect on my performance, I don’t believe in it. I believe sometimes you can do some exercises that help the nervous system. Like Olympic lifting, it makes you more explosive. Olympic lifters are the most explosive athletes in the world. Also gymnastics, I like gymnastics, I think it makes me more athletic.

FO: So why are people still training with strength and conditioning coaches rather than doing things your way?

I am the only one who does it that way, I don’t say that I have the right answer I don’t know, but for me it is very good and it works so far. But I have been doing this pretty recently, so we’ll see."

Ryan Roddy

Niall0 wrote: »

From an interview with GSP

http://www.fightersonlymagazine.co.uk/interviews/viewarticle.php?id=5164



"FO: Is training the nervous system for explosiveness the next big thing in mixed martial arts?

I don’t do strength and conditioning. The reason I lift weights is to make me more marketable, to make my shape more symmetric. I don’t life weights to have an effect on my performance, I don’t believe in it. I believe sometimes you can do some exercises that help the nervous system. Like Olympic lifting, it makes you more explosive. Olympic lifters are the most explosive athletes in the world. Also gymnastics, I like gymnastics, I think it makes me more athletic.

FO: So why are people still training with strength and conditioning coaches rather than doing things your way?

I am the only one who does it that way, I don’t say that I have the right answer I don’t know, but for me it is very good and it works so far. But I have been doing this pretty recently, so we’ll see."

Well that throws the interview I heard out the window, that seems like a strange mentality to me - but GSP is successful so fair play! Maybe everyone should look towards this, but I would take a guess and say his genetics dictate his superior strength and conditioning - the rest of us probably need to lift to get stronger.

For me, I can see the gains I am making in lifting translating into being stronger for MMA. So ill continue to lift for now anyhow!

Ryan Roddy

So what are we saying so far?what can we summarise about weights for mma? Every time I think I have a good system sorted something else comes along, or I become more educated and I have to change things again!

So I have accepted the fact that strength and conditioning is an ever changing process, and il never perfect it! But maybe that's a good thing.

One thing I would say for anyone looking to incorporating weights into mma is that I think something is better than nothing, as long as the technique is correct then it wont do any harm! What do you guys think?

I think too may people spend weeks making lovely, well researched schedules and then never actually committing to them.

Jason McCabe

So if you could only choose 5 exercises for strength development for a fighter, what would they be?

For me

* Deadlift or powerclean
* Squat (variations of split etc)
* Pull/Chin Up
* Sled
* Bench


For cardio I like
* Concept rowers
* good old fashioned sparring
* pad work
* sprints
* A good takedown session fairly leaves you with some betty swollix.

Ryan Roddy

Pull ups
Bench press
push press

Dead-lift
front squat
cleans
Box jumps

sparring
pad work
interval sprints

My favs

OLDMAN1

I think too may people spend weeks making lovely, well researched schedules and then never actually committing to them.[/QUOTE]

100% agree

Jason McCabe

We don't have a glute ham machine at our gym YET, but I've read they are wonderful machines for working your back line.

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Jason McCabe wrote: »

We don't have a glute ham machine at our gym YET, but I've read they are wonderful machines for working your back line.

This is something I always hear about, but do you not think between power cleans and deadlifting, then takedown sessions, you are working your back, hams, glutes enough?
I'm more inclined to start taking a core class at this stage as I think with all the back work I've been neglecting my abs, obliques, etc :pac: