Ferox Primary Food Not Genetics

DryFlyFishing

coolwings wrote: »

On the other hand I eat steak, but am in no danger of becoming bovine ....
Food choices will affect morphology of a specie but over times like 20000 generations, not a lifetime.



You mean a big trout becomes piscivorous because it's ability to handle larger food size begins to include more fish items and less insect items. It's a size thing.


No. That's an assumption which is not borne out by genetic research to date.
They have common ancestors, but ferox have bred seperately and evolved into a different sub species, not a different species (under the fertility criteria).
However it has been demonstrated that lions and tigers can successfully interbreed with mans intervention, but not in the wild, and they are different species of cats. This is the criteria under which ferox trout are a different species from brown trout.

why did salmon decide to go to sea? is a salmon not a trout origionaly
why did seatrout decide to go to sea? is a seatrout not a trout origionaly

and yes over thousands of years can you imagine what a human would be like if they primarily ate humans... lol

yes it is a size thing ... big fish expend more energy to move so they need to eat more..... but if there was enough nymphs and shrips so they did not have to eat fish they would not eat fish etc... as numphs and shrimps are easier to catch

ironbluedun

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

..

in other words all trout are ferox

bunkum...........trout eat what is available.....even ferox will take flies...........but prefer fish

DryFlyFishing

ironbluedun wrote: »

bunkum...........trout eat what is available.....even ferox will take flies...........but prefer fish

only prefer fish as they need a bigger dinner to survive...

that is why when an abundant source of nymphs i.e mayfly and buzzer are around the large trout i.e ferox will not eat fish and concentrate on nymphs...

also the same way a large salmon will feed in fresh water... its all to do with im not going to eat that unless i get more energy out of it than i expend hunting it...

scientist have just overcomplicated the ferox thing and brain washed everyone

bet ya those scientist are crap at fishing

coolwings

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

why did salmon decide to go to sea? is a salmon not a trout origionaly
why did seatrout decide to go to sea? is a seatrout not a trout origionaly
...

Your logic is faulty.

The fact modern species all evolved from the same ancestor species does not mean that all modern species are the same today.

ironbluedun

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

only prefer fish as they need a biger dinner to survive...

true but to say that all trout turn into ferox.....well... i understand and respect your points but i am not so sure.....what about the sonaghen in melvin do they turn into ferox? and the big trout in Sheelin the 10lb + fish look nothing like the 10lb ferox of mask and corrib. According to your views are larger sheelin fish trout that have turned ferox too???? i dont believe so they are totally different in appearance. All of them are not as old as the ferox is, so the fexox is a long living fish and the brown trout is not....they are different....whether you call them different species i am not sure, maybe different race.

ironbluedun

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

its all to do with im not going to eat that unless i get more energy out of it than i expend hunting it...

100%

DryFlyFishing

ironbluedun wrote: »

true but to say that all trout turn into ferox.....well... i understand and respect your points but i am not so sure.....what about the sonaghen in melvin do they turn into ferox? and the big trout in Sheelin the 10lb + fish look nothing like the 10lb ferox of mask and corrib. According to your views are larger sheelin fish trout that have turned ferox too???? i dont believe so they are totally different in appearance. All of them are not as old as the ferox is, so the fexox is a long living fish and the brown trout is not....they are different....whether you call them different species i am not sure, maybe different race.

as i said earlier ... all trout come from the same DNA.. but because they lived for thousands of years and evolved over that time... there climate and location has shaped there life...

so as a fish needs to eat more fish when he hits a certain size for its location as the nymphs and shimp do not sustain him any more, a trout becomes a ferox at that time... and this is a different time/fish size in every location...

and yes they are different looking and have slight variations of DNA but who gives a toss... the scientists are full of it.. and talk crap.

look at china... small people in one area and 6 foot people in another... WHY??? may you ask.. the tall people come from the agracultural area... lots of meat... and other good food

i would call the tall ones ferox lol

ironbluedun

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

as i said earlier ... all trout come from the same DNA.. but because they lived for thousands of years and evolved over that time... there climate and location has shaped there life...

so as a fish needs to eat more fish when he hits a certain size for its location as the nymphs and shimp do not sustain him any more, a trout becomes a ferox at that time... and this is a different time/fish size in every location...

no cant agree with that highlighted statement i have not seen it.....was the 15lb trout caught on sheelin in march a ferox???? i am certain you have seen its photo, its all over the net, was it a ferox? yes or no?

http://www.shannon-fishery-board.ie/guides/game/reports2010/march3rd.htm

DryFlyFishing

ironbluedun wrote: »

no cant agree with that highlighted statement i have not seen it.....was the 15lb trout caught on sheelin in march a ferox???? i am certain you have seen its photo, its all over the net, was it a ferox? yes or no?

http://www.shannon-fishery-board.ie/guides/game/reports2010/march3rd.htm

if its flesh was white it is a ferox as it does not primarily eat shrimp / numphs etc anymore, it is primarialy a fish eater...

did they cut it open?

all small trout to a certain size in sheelin are red fleshed... then they go white... as they need fish primarily to live and grow

what size on sheelin does the flesh go white on average?

if a fish is lucky enough to gorw in its location to the size where it has to eat fish.. it is at the top of its food chain.. and it extends its life expectancy by many years.. therefore any trout that grows big for its water system/location turns ferox and lives longer...

ironbluedun

i heard that the big trout was kept alive in a pike sack for inspection by fishery staff, scales taken and returned to the water alive....i suppose you are horrified with that :):D

i dont cut open any trout so dont know what colour the flesh is of any fish......

that fish could also feed on nymphs and flies like many other larger trout do... in my opinion it is not what i call a ferox......

DryFlyFishing

ironbluedun wrote: »

i heard that the big trout was kept alive in a pike sack for inspection by fishery staff, scales taken and returned to the water alive....i suppose you are horrified with that :):D



i dont cut open any trout so dont know what colour the flesh is of any fish......

that fish could also feed on nymphs and flies like many other larger trout do... in my opinion it is not what i call a ferox......

i think they were right to take samples of the fish....... as the scientists are far from the truth....they need all the help they can get lol

its something that is open for debate...

and even if they did a DNA test it does not make it a ferox or not a ferox ....

its all to do with what is a trouts primary food...

and yes im 100% sure that fish gourges on easy food like nymphs shrimps etc when they are abundant...

BoarHunter

when the fish reach a certain size you have to consider the ratio : Energy spent to catch < energy provided by the meal . A big Trout will consider more hunting for easy fish preys than spending the whole day rising for small insects... that just doesn't worth it from their perspective.

therefore the fish that intend to catch bigger preys will go and find them deeper and as they change their diet their flesh and colour will also change. I suppose that their cortex evolve differently than other trouts from their diet.

this of course influence the genetic IMHO and i wouldn't know the single clue about why some fish change and some other don't.

As DFF says all dogs come from one single species of wolf ...

coolwings

BoarHunter wrote: »

..As DFF says all dogs come from one single species of wolf ...

So far so good - but then he goes on to say that all dogs become wolves :eek: when they grow up to be bigger and eat more, which just isn't so!

DryFlyFishing

coolwings wrote: »

So far so good - but then he goes on to say that all dogs become wolves :eek: when they grow up to be bigger and eat more, which just isn't so!

ever heard of pack mentality .... sheep killings ....:D

BoarHunter

Have we ever managed to breed a ferox in captivity ?

DryFlyFishing

BoarHunter wrote: »

Have we ever managed to breed a ferox in captivity ?

dont know.. has anyone ever tracked a stocky for its full lifespan,,, and one that was lucky enough to be in fit enough shape like a wild trout to chase fish.. when the other stuff did not suffice



but what about all the trout the guys breed and release when small..... im sure they have... as they were released when they were very small... big difference between a baby fish being released and a fat stocky


or do you meen keeping the fish in a tank and only feed it fish?????????????lol

coolwings

BoarHunter wrote: »

Have we ever managed to breed a ferox in captivity ?

I think they are being bred in the US.

The Great Lakes have always had large trout and salmon, not due to good spawning inflowing streams, but grown on from enormous quantities of stocked fry.
Only a few of the game fish in the Great lakes spawn successfully, and those are not enough to sustain a fishery on a water the size of an inland sea. So stocking is the only way to have good sport fishing of what the lake can sustain.

The browns stocked were called German Browns, and in these waters they bottom fed, ate fish, and grew to 25-30lbs in extreme.

Well about 10 years ago a new strain of brown trout was tried out by the authorities. These are called Seeforellen strain, from Austria, and if you speak German that translates as "lake brown trout". The seeforellen were a big success, growing even larger than the browns already there.
The seeforellen feed pelagically, and hunt the massive midwater shoals of shad, a silvery herring shoal fish, which would behave like char in many ways. These new strain trout grow to excess 35lbs and state records are being broken.
Many US lakes are now being stocked with trout from the seeforellen hatcheries.
That sounds to me like they got themselves some Austrian ferox.

DryFlyFishing

coolwings wrote: »

I think they are being bred in the US.

The Great Lakes have always had large trout and salmon, not due to good spawning inflowing streams, but grown on from enormous quantities of stocked fry.
Only a few of the game fish in the Great lakes spawn successfully, and those are not enough to sustain a fishery on a water the size of an inland sea. So stocking is the only way to have good sport fishing of what the lake can sustain.

The browns stocked were called German Browns, and in these waters they bottom fed, ate fish, and grew to 25-30lbs in extreme.

Well about 10 years ago a new strain of brown trout was tried out by the authorities. These are called Seeforellen strain, from Austria, and if you speak German that translates as "lake brown trout". The seeforellen were a big success, growing even larger than the browns already there.
The seeforellen feed pelagically, and hunt the massive midwater shoals of shad, a silvery herring shoal fish, which would behave like char in many ways. These new strain trout grow to excess 35lbs and state records are being broken.
Many US lakes are now being stocked with trout from the seeforellen hatcheries.
That sounds to me like they got themselves some Austrian ferox.

well if the fish grow that big over many years????

or are they growing that big over a very short time... because of so much stocked food...

does that strain of brown trout grow like rainbows... they put on weight very fast...

coolwings

If you do a websearch for seeforellen and Great Lakes you'll find a lot of comment of them. They are chunky looking in photos due to being so well fed.
The shad are very numerous, in huge shoals, and these fish lunch on them.
The other big trout seem to feed on gobies, a small bottom loving fish, like a big stoneloach, and sculpins, another bottom oriented "minnow".
The comparison to ferox and char is striking, the increased size highly suggestive, but I have never come across a definite confirmation that ferox were selected intentionally for the introduction, or age comparisons. The name given to this strain shouts "ferox", doesn't it?

DryFlyFishing

coolwings wrote: »

If you do a websearch for seeforellen and Great Lakes you'll find a lot of comment of them. They are chunky looking in photos due to being so well fed.
The shad are very numerous, in huge shoals, and these fish lunch on them.
The other big trout seem to feed on gobies, a small bottom loving fish, like a big stoneloach, and sculpins, another bottom oriented "minnow".
The comparison to ferox and char is striking, the increased size highly suggestive, but I have never come across a definite confirmation that ferox were selected intentionally for the introduction, or age comparisons. The name given to this strain shouts "ferox", doesn't it?

so much bait fish it grown so quick...

human intervention...

USA supersize my fish....

young fish are huge... its like stocky land..

not into that...

rather catch a trout that grew slowly over many years and is large for its natural habitiat not all this fish farm engineering...

its not natural....

fontanalis

BoarHunter wrote: »

when the fish reach a certain size you have to consider the ratio : Energy spent to catch < energy provided by the meal . A big Trout will consider more hunting for easy fish preys than spending the whole day rising for small insects... that just doesn't worth it from their perspective.

therefore the fish that intend to catch bigger preys will go and find them deeper and as they change their diet their flesh and colour will also change. I suppose that their cortex evolve differently than other trouts from their diet.

this of course influence the genetic IMHO and i wouldn't know the single clue about why some fish change and some other don't.

As DFF says all dogs come from one single species of wolf ...

A lot of artificial selection especially in the last 300 years.

ironbluedun

coolwings wrote: »

The Great Lakes have always had large trout and salmon, not due to good spawning inflowing streams, but grown on from enormous quantities of stocked fry.

mmmm enormous quantities of stocked fry, therefore artificially force fed, don’t think that is my thing…….its a bit like carp fishing where carp fisheries are filled with tons of high protein bait to feed the fish up to un-naturally looking over sized forced fed fish…they look obese…rainbow trout fed on pellets, god knows what the pellets really contain…..farm salmon feeding them on a concoction of chemicals….chickens forced fed toxic water etc… people are eating that stuff and wondering why they get seriously ill…..all of that is too much for me I would rather catch one wild fish than 10 force fed fish….maybe i am too old fashioned.

coolwings

Well it's a sea fishing scene.
If you look at the Irish sea, a vast area, and want to catch sea trout, which only spawn in the inflowing rivers, then you must accept that the wild spawning of sea trout is only sufficient to provide sea trout fishing in the rivers themselves, and in the coastal areas right along the nearby shore.
the spawning is appropriate for that much stock.

But the Great Lakes are like several Irish seas made of freshwater, If you are prepared to think bigger, and ban trawlers, then you could say, what if we stock enough fry to put sea trout all over the Irish sea? For when the sea trout are off lets also put in Chinook (to 50lbs) and Atlantic salmon (to 30lbs), and steelhead rainbows (lake and stream fishing), and brown trout (same) wouldn't that be game fishing over a vast area, and jobs for hundreds of thousands more people, and think of the fishing, tackle, boatmaking, engine sales and servicing, food, and tourism industries that would thrive around a game fishing lake the size of the Irish sea. The size of such a recreational fishery is mind boggling, and they have several in those lakes. They stock fry not big fed fish.
You have to imagine brown trout hunting and feeding on herring/mackerel shoals (the shad) to get an idea of where the growth rates come from.
Check it out. They have the worlds best trout and salmon fishing, not thousands of miles away in Alaska but situated right beside big cities, and the fish were stocked no bigger than fry. The fish that run the spawning streams in autumn are enormous.

Would you be curious about making the Irish sea into a Corrib/Mask type fishery with boat launches at Dublin, Dundalk, Wexford, Cork and Belfast and places inbetween and full with fish the size of that, and all publicly available with your state license, not private?

That's what they have got. I wouldn't knock it until I try it!

ironbluedun

coolwings wrote: »

Well it's a sea fishing scene.
If you look at the Irish sea, a vast area, and want to catch sea trout, which only spawn in the inflowing rivers, then you must accept that the wild spawning of sea trout is only sufficient to provide sea trout fishing in the rivers themselves, and in the coastal areas right along the nearby shore.
the spawning is appropriate for that much stock.

But the Great Lakes are like several Irish seas made of freshwater, If you are prepared to think bigger, and ban trawlers, then you could say, what if we stock enough fry to put sea trout all over the Irish sea? For when the sea trout are off lets also put in Chinook (to 50lbs) and Atlantic salmon (to 30lbs), and steelhead rainbows (lake and stream fishing), and brown trout (same) wouldn't that be game fishing over a vast area, and jobs for hundreds of thousands more people, and think of the fishing, tackle, boatmaking, engine sales and servicing, food, and tourism industries that would thrive around a game fishing lake the size of the Irish sea. The size of such a recreational fishery is mind boggling, and they have several in those lakes. They stock fry not big fed fish.
You have to imagine brown trout hunting and feeding on herring/mackerel shoals (the shad) to get an idea of where the growth rates come from.
Check it out. They have the worlds best trout and salmon fishing, not thousands of miles away in Alaska but situated right beside big cities, and the fish were stocked no bigger than fry. The fish that run the spawning streams in autumn are enormous.

Would you be curious about making the Irish sea into a Corrib/Mask type fishery with boat launches at Dublin, Dundalk, Wexford, Cork and Belfast and places inbetween and full with fish the size of that, and all publicly available with your state license, not private?

That's what they have got. I wouldn't knock it until I try it!

interesting post....but i don't think its the size of the lakes that matter??? just that they are better managed, yes no? you are 100% about the economic benefits of such fish 'Engineering' there is no doubt about that...for a angler who prefers wild fisheries it might not be the most appealing, but each to their own and i am not knocking their systems, i fished over there and the fisheries are so well managed compared to here.

DryFlyFishing

what is the down side to our natural fish stock if we did what the USA did?

i think if we did the same as them we would have a huge problem....

i would say all our natural seatrout would be gobbled up and all our salmon smolts..

disaster.....

dont mess with what is already natural... just help it get healthy again...

USA only do that rubbish cus they like everything obnoxiously big and are greedy... and never had a wild fishery like Ireland


and if you want to fish for an amazing fighter in the sea go after BASS ... they are one of the best fish to eat and there is enough around to support rod fishing only...

Bass fight well above there weight...

Try it on the spinn or fly... bass in my book are up there with seatrout for the fight they put up....

ironbluedun

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

never had a wild fishery like Ireland[/COLOR]

i would not be too sure about that

DryFlyFishing

ironbluedun wrote: »

i would not be too sure about that

where in the USA do you have a similar fishery in a 100 mile radius from the centre of the country...

i know of none...

hop in the car and go anywhere in ireland and your there on the river....

in america you have to hop on a plane... to get to places like you see in ireland...

BoarHunter

I fished a bit in the US and i can say that fishery management is at least a century ahead of ireland without looking for an argument here.

DryFlyFishing

BoarHunter wrote: »

I fished a bit in the US and i can say that fishery management is at least a century ahead of ireland without looking for an argument here.

in what way?

ironbluedun

DryFlyFishing wrote: »

in what way?

it would take a long long time to reply to that question, have you ever fished in north america? canada or US? if so you know the answers already, if not you should go over sometime....