James Connolly; Irish or Scottish.

wolfpawnat

James Connolly was born to Irish (Monaghan born, if I am not mistaken) parents in Scotland in the later part of the 19th Centuary. He came back to Ireland and in the 1902 (correct me if I am wrong on the year) census, he put himself down as a Monaghan man. He recently was on a poll for the "greatest Irish person" and fought and died for the working class people of Ireland.

So do you see him as a Scottish man or an Irish?

I came to this forum as most people here will hopefully not take this OT, but rather just answer a basic question

Denerick

I regard him as Irish. Irish immigrants to Britain had children who tended to regard themselves as Irish people living and working in Britain, even if they had English or Scottish accents. he spent most of his adult life in Ireland, and was part of a Republican rebellion. They don't come much more Irish than that.

mathepac

100% dyed-in-the-wool Irish militant socialist.

purplepanda

More Irish than De Valera was anyway!!!!:rolleyes:

johnny_doyle

some of those born abroad are more Irish than those born in Ireland.

If Connolly thought himself Irish, then he was Irish. What we think matters not.

Cavehill Red

Born in Ireland prior to the referendum undoing the right of citizenship by birth - therefore, Irish.

owenc

Irish because he dosn't live in ni but with full scottish ancestry. EDIT: oh sorry for being so rude i read about him he was born in scotland so hes scottish (don't know why people are saying hes irish) and ihs ancestry is ulster scots because he has irish parents but they are ulster scots.

Cavehill Red

owenc wrote: »

Irish because he dosn't live in ni but with full scottish ancestry.

NI didn't exist when he was born.
In any case, everyone born in all parts of Ireland up until just a few years ago is entitled to Irish nationality.

wolfpawnat

owenc wrote: »

Irish because he dosn't live in ni but with full scottish ancestry.

But there was never a question of him being from NI, his family was from Monaghan

wolfpawnat

Irregardless of the peoples personal beliefs on this thread, unionist, imperialist, communist, nationalist, socialist, etc. this is about do you see Connolly as Irish or Scottish, the thought "just because you are born in a stable" comes to my mind He cared so much for the everyday man (and woman) who worked hard but had no rights, he did not care about their religion or their ideas of unionism vs nationalism.

That was not the politics that he was interested in, he wanted to abolish the slavery of the lower classes.

Why does every thread regarding Irish history have to turn into a childish argument? I have had more interesting discussions regarding my countrys history with people who aren't even Euopean! But I cannot discuss it with my own countrymen because they are too busy making childish snide comments to others.

Denerick

wolfpawnat wrote: »

But I cannot discuss it with my own countrymen because they are too busy making childish snide comments to others.

I forgot why I love Irish History so much. Cheers!

wolfpawnat

Denerick wrote: »

I forgot why I love Irish History so much. Cheers!

If you "love it so much" why bother typing at all?

ejmaztec

I was born in the UK to a Kerry mother and Mayo father, and have been living here twenty years. The natives around here regard me as English, even though I'm part of the Irish gene-pool.

If I became famous for doing something popular, I'd be regarded as Irish in a flash.

Had James Connolly not taken part in the Easter rising, he would have always been regarded as a Scot.

Identity/acceptance is a very complicated issue.:(

wolfpawnat

ejmaztec wrote: »

I was born in the UK to a Kerry mother and Mayo father, and have been living here twenty years. The natives around here regard me as English, even though I'm part of the Irish gene-pool.

If I became famous for doing something popular, I'd be regarded as Irish in a flash.

Had James Connolly not taken part in the Easter rising, he would have always been regarded as a Scot.

Identity/acceptance is a very complicated issue.:(

He saw himself as Irish in the 1902 Census and he was involved in a lot more than just that rising. He was regarded by the people of Ireland as Irish in 1913 in the Lockout, even Martin Murphy made comments of the "Irish man with the Scottish accent"

ejmaztec

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He saw himself as Irish in the 1902 Census and he was involved in a lot more than just that rising. He was regarded by the people of Ireland as Irish in 1913 in the Lockout, even Martin Murphy made comments of the "Irish man with the Scottish accent"

I regard myself as Irish, but it doesn't change the opinion of the natives here. If I were at the forefront of a popular revolution, or suddenly came into millions, I would be the "Irish man with the English accent".

gurramok

ejmaztec wrote: »

I regard myself as Irish, but it doesn't change the opinion of the natives here. If I were at the forefront of a popular revolution, or suddenly came into millions, I would be the "Irish man with the English accent".

I think that one of the guys killed by the SAS in Gibraltar was born in England of Irish parents, and I would imagine that he would be regarded as Irish by many Irish people.

I'm in a similar position to you. Born in London to a Dublin father and a Galway mother. Lived here since I was 3, have the Dub accent and the Irish passport so maybe I have it more easily than you

ejmaztec

gurramok wrote: »

I'm in a similar position to you. Born in London to a Dublin father and a Galway mother. Lived here since I was 3, have the Dub accent and the Irish passport so maybe I have it more easily than you

Do you do elocution lessons for people with an identity crisis like me?

mathepac

wolfpawnat wrote: »

He saw himself as Irish in the 1902 Census and he was involved in a lot more than just that rising. ...

I think that's the pity in relation to Connolly.

Most people I speak to about him know only of his Citizen Army / Easter Rising associations and never acknowledge him as a world-renowned labour movement agitator, organiser, writer and activist. Others I speak to choose to ignore his time as a soldier (British Army, served in India and Ireland, met his Protestant wife here), an apprentice printer, labourer, dung carrier and they all seem to focus focus on the mythical figure immortalised by the Wolfe Tones.

He was founder of the ITGWU, the Irish Labour Party, was the father of two Oireachtas members, a visionary, a revolutionary, a man on a par with the greatest of Irishmen, but sadly only ever recognised for his part in the Easter uprising. Like a lot of our greatest, dead too young at 47.

gurramok

ejmaztec wrote: »

Do you do elocution lessons for people with an identity crisis like me?

Ah sure you be grand

Your status would be similar to James Connolly except the revolutionary bit

wolfpawnat

mathepac wrote: »

I think that's the pity in relation to Connolly.

Most people I speak to about him know only of his Citizen Army / Easter Rising associations and never acknowledge him as a world-renowned labour movement agitator, organiser, writer and activist. Others I speak to choose to ignore his time as a soldier (British Army, served in India and Ireland, met his Protestant wife here), an apprentice printer, labourer, dung carrier and they all seem to focus focus on the mythical figure immortalised by the Wolfe Tones.

He was founder of the ITGWU, the Irish Labour Party, was the father of two Oireachtas members, a visionary, a revolutionary, a man on a par with the greatest of Irishmen, but sadly only ever recognised for his part in the Easter uprising. Like a lot of our greatest, dead too young at 47.

Could not agree with you more! He is only remembered by most as he was part of that rising, (which is only a coinsidence as he was not meant to be in the original plans by Pearse, Clarke and the others). People also have this idea that he was one of the leaders to be in thee decision of the surrender, but he could not have been.

After he was shot in the leg gangrene set in and his blood was poisoned He was in excrutiating agony so he was given chloroform to help ease the pain. He hadn't a clue which way was up towards the end, and though he was sent to be tended to medicially in Dublin Castle, he was only stabilised to be shot, but would not have survived anyway, the septicemia had went too far! But this is not fit the romantic view that people have.

I myself am a great fan of Connolly and am hoping he gets the Greatest Irish Person award, he cared about everyone equally and treated everyone equally. He only wanted people to get a decent days wage for a hard day worked!

I also cannot stomach when I hear/read peoples beliefs that he was a Communist, wtf are they teaching in schools if people cannot tell the difference between Communism and Socialism!?!?!?!

owenc

ejmaztec wrote: »

I regard myself as Irish, but it doesn't change the opinion of the natives here. If I were at the forefront of a popular revolution, or suddenly came into millions, I would be the "Irish man with the English accent".

How can you be irish if you were born in england, your english with irish heritage?!? ARe you not. You don't even live down south.

dlofnep

Lads, just report Owen for taking the thread off-topic.

As for Connolly - everything doesn't have to be so black and white. I'd regard him as Irish/Scottish. Born to Irish parents, and grew up in Scotland.

Wolfe Tone

owenc wrote: »

Wait, its yous that take it off topic by critising me so yous are the ones to blame, the next time you see me saying something just accept it.

I apologize O holy one!

I shall flog myself for having the temporary lapse of memory! I forgot that thou art infallible!


Edit: Thats the best way dlofnep

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

I can't beleive you actually think i'm trolling, i am a nice kind person i would never think of doing that.. people should be banned for accusing someone of doing that its not nice or fair.

I didn't accuse you of trolling. I stated that you were taking the thread off topic. Every off-topic post in this thread has revolved around you. Everything isn't about you.

mathepac

wolfpawnat wrote: »

... he was part of that rising, (which is only a coinsidence as he was not meant to be in the original plans by Pearse, Clarke and the others). ...

He was in fact agitating for insurrection, but on grounds other than secession from British rule. He firmly believed that even if the political ties were broken, the economic ties to our bigger, wealthier more powerful neighbour would still keep Ireland economically subjugated.

There are persistent rumours that the Volunteer leadership, Clarke and Pearse, had him kidnapped as he was stirring things up too successfully and they apparently feared their planned insurrection would be scuppered by his more spontaneous / populous one. Another story is that they feared that without aligning the suprisingly well-equipped Citizen Army (in comparison to the Volunteers) and the widely popular Connolly with their cause, they would lose the physical battle but also the battle for hearts and minds. As it transpired, even with Connolly, they were right on both counts.

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

I didn't accuse you of trolling. I stated that you were taking the thread off topic. Every off-topic post in this thread has revolved around you. Everything isn't about you.

Erm no it is always them that starts it look : "
Highly unlikely and based on his contributions to this thread, IMHO owenc is trolling; do not feed him." it was fine until he came on and said that.

Denerick

mathepac wrote: »

He was in fact agitating for insurrection, but on grounds other than secession from British rule. He firmly believed that even if the political ties were broken, the economic ties to our bigger, wealthier more powerful neighbour would still keep Ireland economically subjugated.

Poor old Connolly. Like Michael Davitt before him he genuinely believed the rural and urban poor across Europe would refuse to go to war against each other in 1914 (Davitt was dead at the time, but he believed a continental war was impossible given 'the solidarity of the poor')

There are persistent rumours that the Volunteer leadership, Clarke and Pearse, had him kidnapped as he was stirring things up too successfully and they apparently feared their planned insurrection would be scuppered by his more spontaneous / populous one. Another story is that they feared that without aligning the suprisingly well-equipped Citizen Army (in comparison to the Volunteers) and the widely popular Connolly with their cause, they would lose the physical battle but also the battle for hearts and minds. As it transpired, even with Connolly, they were right on both counts.

Pearse and Clarke needed Connolly because he was all on for taking his 200 odd citizen soldiers out by themselves. When he learnt that the Republicans were plotting something similar, though with larger numbers, he was converted. I don't believe he was actually kidnapped.

wolfpawnat

mathepac wrote: »

He was in fact agitating for insurrection, but on grounds other than secession from British rule. He firmly believed that even if the political ties were broken, the economic ties to our bigger, wealthier more powerful neighbour would still keep Ireland economically subjugated.

There are persistent rumours that the Volunteer leadership, Clarke and Pearse, had him kidnapped as he was stirring things up too successfully and they apparently feared their planned insurrection would be scuppered by his more spontaneous / populous one. Another story is that they feared that without aligning the suprisingly well-equipped Citizen Army (in comparison to the Volunteers) and the widely popular Connolly with their cause, they would lose the physical battle but also the battle for hearts and minds. As it transpired, even with Connolly, they were right on both counts.

Denerick wrote: »

Poor old Connolly. Like Michael Davitt before him he genuinely believed the rural and urban poor across Europe would refuse to go to war against each other in 1914 (Davitt was dead at the time, but he believed a continental war was impossible given 'the solidarity of the poor')



Pearse and Clarke needed Connolly because he was all on for taking his 200 odd citizen soldiers out by themselves. When he learnt that the Republicans were plotting something similar, though with larger numbers, he was converted. I don't believe he was actually kidnapped.

Correct Denerick. He was supposed to be doing a rising of his own, Pearse, Clarke and the others learned of this and asked him to hold back and join with them as his rising was due to be before theirs and his rising would cause a larger police and army presence in Dublin before they were ready for theirs. Pluss him on their side means more numbers and as said before, he was popular with those in the lower classes too!

brianthebard

owenc wrote: »

How can you be irish if you were born in england, your english with irish heritage?!? ARe you not. You don't even live down south.

Owen you are young but you need to learn that nationality is not as cut and dry and you seem to think it is. There are hundreds of thousands of people living in NI that consider themselves Irish, not British for instance. This is something you need to think about and understand.

Now, you and a few others have posted tons of off topic stuff on this thread so I deleted as much of it as possible. I've given an infraction to Mussolini, and I will now ask you not to post on this thread again. Mod.

brianthebard

mathepac wrote: »

I think that's the pity in relation to Connolly.

Most people I speak to about him know only of his Citizen Army / Easter Rising associations and never acknowledge him as a world-renowned labour movement agitator, organiser, writer and activist. Others I speak to choose to ignore his time as a soldier (British Army, served in India and Ireland, met his Protestant wife here), an apprentice printer, labourer, dung carrier and they all seem to focus focus on the mythical figure immortalised by the Wolfe Tones.

POI, he never served in India. He was a child/teen soldier, who deserted about 6 months before he was due to be demobbed because he heard he might be stationed abroad.

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Could not agree with you more! He is only remembered by most as he was part of that rising, (which is only a coinsidence as he was not meant to be in the original plans by Pearse, Clarke and the others). People also have this idea that he was one of the leaders to be in thee decision of the surrender, but he could not have been.

The evidence suggests otherwise; he was in contact with Clarke and other leaders for years, and had official contact with the IRB from the start of WWI. Additionally he taught the Volunteer officers theories on warfare. People seem to think these people or groups were completely autonomous until one day they teamed up but there was a lot more correspondence for a long time before that. Connolly's position as Commander-General/Commander in Chief of the Dublin Brigade (don't remember exact title) is another example of this.

After he was shot in the leg gangrene set in and his blood was poisoned He was in excrutiating agony so he was given chloroform to help ease the pain. He hadn't a clue which way was up towards the end, and though he was sent to be tended to medicially in Dublin Castle, he was only stabilised to be shot, but would not have survived anyway, the septicemia had went too far! But this is not fit the romantic view that people have.

Again this is not what the evidence tells us, he was under medication for a portion of the time but after that became lucid and was involved in plans throughout the end of the Rising.

rcarragh

Is there evidence that he was born in Scotland?

He states that he was born in Monaghan in the 1911 Census:
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000119513/
Generally you take a man at his word regarding his place of birth.

brianthebard

He certainly claimed to have been born in Ireland, and Larkin did similar. I think this would have been a common tactic for any man or woman who returned to Ireland in later life, to claim they were born in Ireland so as to be more acceptable to the rest of the population. Nobody can say for sure where he was born, but I think if you had asked him if he were Scottish or Irish Connolly would have told you he was a worker, and if pressed I think he would have said Irish after that.

ValJester

Surely that as a Marxist he should have seen nationality as a social construct, and considered his first priority to be the emancipation of the worker. Marx himself held strongly pro-Fenian views throughout his life, so it fits quite naturally that Connolly would be both Fenian and Marxist.

brianthebard

Well as I said he would have considered himself a worker first. However the rejection of nationalism is I believe a second international position, and I think Connolly would have seen himself as an Orthodox Marxist, with syndicalist tendencies. He was obviously internationalist but didn't necessarily believe it important to deny nationalist sentiment.

Einhard

Both.

TheUsual

It doesn't matter as he was more worried about the treatment of workers and their families in the tenaments of Ireland and Scotland. His ideas were bigger than his place of birth.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Depends how old he was when he got to Ireland for me to consider him technically Irish.

Though if you have Irish parents I would consider you Irish for all intents and purposes tbh

brianthebard

well then he's Irish by your own definition(s)...

walrusgumble

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Born in Ireland prior to the referendum undoing the right of citizenship by birth - therefore, Irish.

That referendum you refer to relates to a child born of non Irish parents. Connolly's parents were Irish, so even if the referendum was in place, he would still be entitled to Citizenship, via Section 7 descent.

hXci

I would always consider Connolly to be Irish. Born to a Leitrim mother and a Monaghan father, he considered himself Irish, so why people get caught up in this issue and proclaim him Scottish is beyond me!

grenache

owenc wrote: »

Irish because he dosn't live in ni but with full scottish ancestry. EDIT: oh sorry for being so rude i read about him he was born in scotland so hes scottish (don't know why people are saying hes irish) and ihs ancestry is ulster scots because he has irish parents but they are ulster scots.

That post makes no sense. His parents were not of Ulster-Scots vintage, why would you think that? Surely the clue is in his surname!

walrusgumble

grenache wrote: »

That post makes no sense. His parents were not of Ulster-Scots vintage, why would you think that? Surely the clue is in his surname!

anyone living in the North at one point or another, knows full well that the surname of the family does not always tell you their nationality, political nationality etc