ticket for not displaying tax

dulaman

hey guys,
i got a ticket for not displaying tax on a car that's broken down. it hasn't moved in over a year now, and that was the last time the tax was paid on it.

was going to move and declare it off the road but didn't get round to it as the battery is dead. it's on a public residential road ( but has a parking permit ).

will i have to pay the full ticket (actually two tickets, ouch ) plus all the back dated tax now?

thanks in advance

jaffa20

dulaman wrote: »

will i have to pay the full ticket

Yeah. It's stupid though cos you were not even using the car but it was still on a public road.

dulaman

cheers yea,
what about the car tax for the last year?
would i have to pay that also dya reckon?

Mycroft H

dulaman wrote: »

cheers yea,
what about the car tax for the last year?
would i have to pay that also dya reckon?

You could chance in declaring it off the road.... but it was on a public road so don't hold your hopes up :pac:

bazz26

You will need to move the car from a public place otherwise you might get another ticket for the same offence. Suggest you park it on private property if you don't want to get another ticket, the alternative is to tax it.

Given that you have received a fine for not displaying a current valid tax disc it is likely that you may not be able to declare the car off the road to avoid paying back tax when you renew the tax. Not 100% sure on this though.

dulaman

maybe i'll just feck it in the sea, and then say to the judge: "what car?"

CiniO

Take it off the public road, because you can collect more penalties...
And yes, you have to pay the ones you already got.

But with declaring it off the road, there is one trick (or mayby loophole in the system).
On the motor tax renewal form, you are signing, that you didn't use your car on public road. As that's actually true in your case, I assume you can easily sign under it.
I know that car was on the public road, but no one is asking about it.
All you have to sign, is that you (or anyone else with your consent) didn't use it.
Obviously they can always make you to pay the tax for the last year, as your car was on public road. All they need is a proof.
But I think it's always worth chancing it, to sign a declaration that you didn't use it, and see what they'll say. They obviously won't be able to do you for giving false declaration, as whay you are actuall declaring is true.

Connie_c28

Go the gardai station and get them to sign to say it was off the road and you will only have to pay from the date you go into the office.

As for the fines - where exactly is the area? If it is a public road in a private estate (confusing I know) you can argue it is off the road in your place as that is your parking permitted place but if it a public road (like council etc) think the fine will have to be paid.

dulaman

will it count as "off the road" though? it's in residential area in blackrock.

it has a parking permit for the year.

also, we never saw any physiscal tickets on the vehicle.
i only found out when my dad opened his mail after coming back from a holiday.

Esel

Connie_c28 wrote: »

Go the gardai station and get them to sign to say it was off the road and you will only have to pay from the date you go into the office.

Wrong, basically. In the Garda station, the garda who signs the form is only witnessing your signature on the declaration.

CharlieCroker

If you get an FCPS for non-display, you do NOT have to tax the car as a result. Move the car to private property and pay the 2 tickets you've gotten and that'll be the end of it.

You could also chance writing into the Super in Blackrock to try and appeal it. Explain the situation and it may end up being cancelled.

slimjimmc

CharlieCroker wrote: »

If you get an FCPS for non-display, you do NOT have to tax the car as a result. Move the car to private property and pay the 2 tickets you've gotten and that'll be the end of it.

You could also chance writing into the Super in Blackrock to try and appeal it. Explain the situation and it may end up being cancelled.

I presume approaching the Super might help if the ticket issued by the Gardaí but what if it was issued by the Local Authority Traffic warden; it might be more difficult to talk to someone then?
or are all tickets processed through the Gardaí even those issued by a traffic warden?

bazz26

Connie_c28 wrote: »

Go the gardai station and get them to sign to say it was off the road and you will only have to pay from the date you go into the office.

He has already got a fine for not having tax and non displaying of a current tax disc so I cannot see how arriving at the motor tax office claiming the car was off the road during that time will work. BTW the Gardai are only witnesses to the declaration made by the owner, they will not be ones checking up on it.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

As for the fines - where exactly is the area? If it is a public road in a private estate (confusing I know) you can argue it is off the road in your place as that is your parking permitted place but if it a public road (like council etc) think the fine will have to be paid.

Doesn't make a difference whether it is a privately or publically owned estate, once it is not parked on private property it is deemed a public place. That is why he got the fines in the first place.

Connie_c28

bazz26 wrote: »

Doesn't make a difference whether it is a privately or publically owned estate, once it is not parked on private property it is deemed a public place. That is why he got the fines in the first place.

Depends on the estate as if you are in one where your parking space is allocated but actually on the road like a lot of new private estates around Dublin. You have actually got your car off the road (my sis had this).

A eager new parking warden went around ticketing the estate. I wrote a letter for her explaining her parking spot was paid for as part of her mortgage therefore her property and he had no right giving a fine to her or any of her neighbours for the cars. All the fines disputed were dropped and when she did put her car back on the road she had only to pay for the tax for the duration she intended on driving the car.

So like I said depends on where exactly the spot on the road is and the circumstances.

dulaman

the road that it's on is a public road with parking meters, but it's not a main thoroughfare or anything. we don't own the road but it's parked beside a communal park that the residence do own.

the two tickets are dated, 12/08 and 20/08 and they're 90 euro each now after the penalty period of 28 days. they're issued by the gardai, not the council.

there were no tickets on the car though.

i'm movin it to private property tomorrow ( if i can get the damn thing to start!!)

thanks for your help, i'll keep yez updated.

looks like i'm going to have to pay full whack though.

tom morris

is your car insured?

CiniO

bazz26 wrote: »

He has already got a fine for not having tax and non displaying of a current tax disc so I cannot see how arriving at the motor tax office claiming the car was off the road during that time will work. BTW the Gardai are only witnesses to the declaration made by the owner, they will not be ones checking up on it.

He doesn't have to declare that the car was off the road.
Only what he has to declare, is that he didn't use his car, or anyone else didn't use it with his consent. That's it. That's enough to avoid paying tax for a declared period.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

Take it off the public road, because you can collect more penalties...
And yes, you have to pay the ones you already got.

But with declaring it off the road, there is one trick (or mayby loophole in the system).
On the motor tax renewal form, you are signing, that you didn't use your car on public road. As that's actually true in your case, I assume you can easily sign under it.
I know that car was on the public road, but no one is asking about it.
All you have to sign, is that you (or anyone else with your consent) didn't use it.
Obviously they can always make you to pay the tax for the last year, as your car was on public road. All they need is a proof.
But I think it's always worth chancing it, to sign a declaration that you didn't use it, and see what they'll say. They obviously won't be able to do you for giving false declaration, as whay you are actuall declaring is true.

Have you actually experience of this or are you just guessing based on the way its worded?

dulaman

no tax and insurance ran out around the same time, ( about a year ago )

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Have you actually experience of this or are you just guessing based on the way its worded?

What kind of experience do I need?
There is a statement that I sing under.
I go to Garda station, and they put a stamp and sign, confirming that I signed it.
Then I go to motortax office, and pay tax from now, but not for the period that I declared that I didn't use it.

No one checks (garda, motor tax office) if the car was really off the road.

So what kind of experience do I need?

Obviously, later they can check it, and if they realise and find a proof that my car was in public place during that time, they might make me to pay tax for this period. But there's always a chance they won't realise, or they won't have a proof. It's just worth chancing it, because you are not risking anything.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

What kind of experience do I need?
There is a statement that I sing under.
I go to Garda station, and they put a stamp and sign, confirming that I signed it.
Then I go to motortax office, and pay tax from now, but not for the period that I declared that I didn't use it.

No one checks (garda, motor tax office) if the car was really off the road.

So what kind of experience do I need?

Obviously, later they can check it, and if they realise and find a proof that my car was in public place during that time, they might make me to pay tax for this period. But there's always a chance they won't realise, or they won't have a proof. It's just worth chancing it, because you are not risking anything.

Well basically you are declaring that the car is off the road, and a guard has already seen that this is not the case (given that they have issued the fine for not displaying the tax disc), so theyd know you were lying the minute you put pen to paper to sign the form.

What I asked was do you have experience of trying to say that the car was not in use during that time according to how the form is worded, as you state above, like have you tried this successfully, or are you just suggesting that it might be worth a try? Because if you havent tried it and it backfires, it could backfire spectacularly...

dulaman

what if I paid the fines and sold the car?
would i have to pay the back tax then?

the car's my dad's name so I wouldn't chance any fraud or anything.
anyone have experience of writing to a super?
what are the legal requirements, regarding the notification of penalty placed on the vehicle?
there was one little soggy sticker on my dash with no info on it.

unkel

CiniO wrote: »

No one checks (garda, motor tax office) if the car was really off the road.

So what kind of experience do I need?

Obviously, later they can check it, and if they realise and find a proof that my car was in public place during that time, they might make me to pay tax for this period. But there's always a chance they won't realise, or they won't have a proof. It's just worth chancing it, because you are not risking anything.

That's incredibly naive.

If the Gardai find that your car was on the public road while you had declared it off the road, they've proven you committed fraud. Serious business that, quite possibly a (suspended) jail sentence...

CiniO

unkel wrote: »

That's incredibly naive.

If the Gardai find that your car was on the public road while you had declared it off the road, they've proven you committed fraud. Serious business that, quite possibly a (suspended) jail sentence...

I just have a MOTOR TAX RENEWAL FORM FR100A in front of me.
Point 7.

I declare that the vehicle had not been used by me or with my consent in public place in the period from .... to ....
Signature:
Garda Signature:

Please show me, where here I declared car was off the road?
Because maybe I just don't know English language good enough.
But from what I understand it says clearly, that the vehicle was not used on public road. And that's completely different thing to vehicle being parked on public road.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Well basically you are declaring that the car is off the road

Basicly where do I declare it?

dodzy

unkel wrote: »

That's incredibly naive.

If the Gardai find that your car was on the public road while you had declared it off the road, they've proven you committed fraud. Serious business that, quite possibly a (suspended) jail sentence...

The OP has a dead car on the side of a road for a year. He has a parking permit ( in an area where the permit applies I am assuming )

I'm sure its worth going to the local station, pleading your case in all honesty. Surely the car could be classed as "off the road" as it has not budged in 12 mths. Covered in sh!t and whatever else has accumulated on it. I'd be pretty amazed if OP proceeded with an OTR claim regarding backtax and asking a guard to sign it that he could potentially end up with a suspended jail sentence. OTT IMO:o

By the way, what is the car. Do you want to sell it ???

slimjimmc

dulaman wrote: »

what if I paid the fines and sold the car?
would i have to pay the back tax then?

the car's my dad's name so I wouldn't chance any fraud or anything.
anyone have experience of writing to a super?
what are the legal requirements, regarding the notification of penalty placed on the vehicle?
there was one little soggy sticker on my dash with no info on it.

Nah, selling or getting rid of the car won't release you from any fines and tax arrears which arose during your term of ownership. If it was that simple there'd be 10,000's of people exchanging ownership with their other half every time they get a fine.

AFAIK there is no legal obligation to place a notice on the car itself, what arrived in the post is formal notice that an offence is alleged against you.

dunsandin

dulaman wrote: »

hey guys,
i got a ticket for not displaying tax on a car that's broken down. it hasn't moved in over a year now, and that was the last time the tax was paid on it.

was going to move and declare it off the road but didn't get round to it as the battery is dead. it's on a public residential road ( but has a parking permit ).

just for the laugh, why dont you take the same speedy approach you did to getting it off the public road, to dealing with it now, and see how big of a fine you can rack up. Its in your old fellas name anyway - he'll probably see the funny side. or maybe not....

CharlieCroker

Again, it doesn't matter!! The OP Is NOT required to tax the car!!!! Just move it off the street and pay the fines/get them cancelled and that'll be the end of the matter!

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

I just have a MOTOR TAX RENEWAL FORM FR100A in front of me.
Point 7.


Please show me, where here I declared car was off the road?
Because maybe I just don't know English language good enough.
But from what I understand it says clearly, that the vehicle was not used on public road. And that's completely different thing to vehicle being parked on public road.

Parked on, used on, its the same thing with regards that form. The car is on a public road, therefore it is using the public road. It doesnt matter if it is stationary at the time.

I see what you are getting at, and by all means take a chance and try use it as a loophole, but if the guards dont like what you are doing and they deem it that you have signed a false declaration then you could be in a lot of trouble.

dunsandin

He cant move it, the batterys flat - how could it possibly be moved? You talk like its on wheels or somthing.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Parked on, used on, its the same thing with regards that form. The car is on a public road, therefore it is using the public road. It doesnt matter if it is stationary at the time.

I see what you are getting at, and by all means take a chance and try use it as a loophole, but if the guards dont like what you are doing and they deem it that you have signed a false declaration then you could be in a lot of trouble.

I really don't understand.
It seems to be really simple sentence. I repeat it again:

I declare that the vehicle had not been used by me or with my consent in public place in the period from .... to ....

There's only one way to understand it.
Besides, "parked on" and "used on" is diffenet thing. That's for sure.
You say that car is on public road, therefore it's using the public road. That's true. But again it has nothing to do with declaration.
Because you didn't declare, that your car wasn't using the public road. You declared, that you didn't use the car on public road. And these two sentences have completely different point.

I could compare it to similar example.
Let's say you want to declare, that you were not laying on your bed.
Someone tells you that you did false declaration, because your bed is laying on the floor.
Can you see the nonsense here?

And yes. I you get charged by making false declaration you will be in serious trouble.
But by all means, this declaration we were talking about is not false.

Esel

CiniO, it really depends on the strict meaning of 'use' in the particular context.

It could be that simply parking your car in a public place constitutes 'use'. I would say that 'use' is defined in the relevant Act somewhere.

I think it would be unsafe to rely on the normal meaning of the word in this instance.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

There's only one way to understand it.
Besides, "parked on" and "used on" is diffenet thing. That's for sure.
You say that car is on public road, therefore it's using the public road. That's true. But again it has nothing to do with declaration.
Because you didn't declare, that your car wasn't using the public road. You declared, that you didn't use the car on public road. And these two sentences have completely different point.

And yes. I you get charged by making false declaration you will be in serious trouble.
But by all means, this declaration we were talking about is not false.

But the car is being used on a public road with your consent; youre the one who parked it there, or at least consented to it being parked there. You are consenting to it being used in a public place, therefore by signing that form it would be considered a false declaration.

Given that you can get a ticket for having a car parked in a public place without a current tax disc Im going to say with 90% certainty that in the case of the declaration of the car being off the road, the phrase "used by" also covers cars which are parked on a public road, but given that I am not a lawyer I cannot say for definate. Id be interested to see someone in the legal professions interpretation of it, but without a proper interpretation Id say you would be on very shakey ground to sign a declaration to say the car was off the road in this instance, especially given that if you have interpreted it wrong the car is already in the system as having been on the road in that time, and you would almost certainly be done for signing a false declaration.

Meeoow

If I were you, I would pay the fines, move the car and leave it at that.
But if it is a requirment to tax a parked but out of use car, the tickets were issued in August, so you could always get the car signed off the road up until July, and tax it from August for 3 months.

Dubluc

The Road Traffic Acts define use as including to park.
A car parked in a public place must be taxed and insured and have a national car test (if over four years old) and have the discs displayed.
If the OP moves the car without first making sure he/she is insured then thats very serious.
Also it is a serious offence to knowingly make a false declaration.

Solution: Pay the fines or riske higher fines and a conviction in court. Insure the car and move it to a private place or tow it away to a private place.

dulaman

yeah thanks dubluc and everyone else, that's the conclusion i've come to. jumped it any my friend drove it who had third party insurance.

got another fine in the post though.

does anybody know if the guards are required to put notice of a fine on windshield of the vehicle?

Dubluc

dulaman wrote: »

yeah thanks dubluc and everyone else, that's the conclusion i've come to. jumped it any my friend drove it who had third party insurance.

got another fine in the post though.

does anybody know if the guards are required to put notice of a fine on windshield of the vehicle?

You are welcome.

slimjimmc

dulaman wrote: »

yeah thanks dubluc and everyone else, that's the conclusion i've come to. jumped it any my friend drove it who had third party insurance.

Just for future reference be very careful re insurance. Most 3rd party insurance polices don't permit you to drive other cars, it's generally an optional extra or a benefit given available with comprehensive policies.

dulaman wrote: »

got another fine in the post though.

does anybody know if the guards are required to put notice of a fine on windshield of the vehicle?

No, a ticket is not required to be placed on the vehicle. The notice in the post is enough.


I'm sensing some déjà vu here.