Speeding fine. No driver identified.

ajamesr

Not sure what to do here.

A speeding fine arrived in the office today. 71km in a 50km zone. Its crazy really. Fine big open road with a 50km limit, and I drive twisty, bumpy country roads home everyday with a higher limit - anyway thats not the issue.

We accept that one of our vans was speeding and we are willing to pay the fine but we, in good faith, cannot be sure who was driving at the time. The offence took place right outside our depot and it was a van that we use regularly for going to the shop, collecting parts, dropping off customers etc etc. It is usually only gone for 10-30 min and then its back and someone else is off in it to do something else. There are 5 possible drivers and no one can remember who was driving at 4:04 last Monday.
The location were the offence took place doesn't help us to narrow down the list of suspects as it was so close to the branch - anyone going anywhere would have to use that road.

I've been in contact with NPO and they say that the photo does not identify in any way who was driving.

So what do I do? I can't just go out and randomly pick someone to take the penalty points. Surely everyone is innocent until proven guilty and the only proven fact is that the van was speeding.

I am just the branch manager and the company is a small local owned company with 4 directors.
How should we proceed? And what is the likely outcome?

R.O.R

I'd still request a copy of the larger photo - might give something away about who was driving it.

As far as I'm aware, the points should ultimatley end up with the company seceratry or one of the directors - but I think that's fairly hard to enforce.

Wossack

may have to make a tough management call


and draw straws

Atlantic Dawn

All 5 names in to a hat and draw one

ajamesr

There must be a precedent for this? Anyone?

I can't see how the court could impose penalty points on a random director, or expect us to nominate an innocent driver. Surely everyone is innocent until proven guilty, and not that we are guilty and have to prove our innocence? Who does the burden of proof lie with?

In good faith I cannot impose on a random employee such a penalty, and even if I did, surely he would have a case to bring me to court for naming him without proof that he was the driver?

kildare.17hmr

the office the fine came from can surley tell you how to deal with this, contact the RSA and ask them. in the meantime pay the fine

bijapos

Tell them its a Polish lad working for ye and his name is Prawo Jazdy. The Guards know him well, he's been caught speeding loads of times.

mdebets

Isn't the normal procedure for this to give the fine to the registered owner of the car and drop the points, but require the owner to keep a logbook from now on?

ajamesr

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

the office the fine came from can surley tell you how to deal with this, contact the RSA and ask them. in the meantime pay the fine

NO. I emailed them to ask for a picture to identify the driver. They said they would send it but it was of no use to identify anyone. They concluded by saying...
"Should you not be in a position to Nominate the driver, I would advise you to retain all paperwork you possess in respect of this Notice as you may need to refer to same should any Court paperwork issue to your company in the future."

I don't think they will accept any payment of fine unless we nominate a driver either.
They also said...
"If the Notice is not returned to this office within the 28 day period prescribed for by law for receipt of Nominations, it will remain in the Company name and, if not paid within the 56 day timeframe, court proceedings may be initiated against the Company."

I don't want to seem uncooperative and do nothing. But that seems to be the option if we can't identify the driver. And then just wait and see.

R.O.R

ajamesr wrote: »

NO. I emailed them to ask for a picture to identify the driver. They said they would send it but it was of no use to identify anyone. They concluded by saying...
"Should you not be in a position to Nominate the driver, I would advise you to retain all paperwork you possess in respect of this Notice as you may need to refer to same should any Court paperwork issue to your company in the future."

I don't think they will accept any payment of fine unless we nominate a driver either.
They also said...
"If the Notice is not returned to this office within the 28 day period prescribed for by law for receipt of Nominations, it will remain in the Company name and, if not paid within the 56 day timeframe, court proceedings may be initiated against the Company."

I don't want to seem uncooperative and do nothing. But that seems to be the option if we can't identify the driver. And then just wait and see.

I'd like to see a judge impose points and a fine on a company for driving a vehicle above the posted speed limit.

Most companies (in fact all) that I've ever worked for, don't know how to drive - yet alone hold a licence.

kildare.17hmr

ajamesr wrote: »

NO. I emailed them to ask for a picture to identify the driver. They said they would send it but it was of no use to identify anyone. They concluded by saying...
"Should you not be in a position to Nominate the driver, I would advise you to retain all paperwork you possess in respect of this Notice as you may need to refer to same should any Court paperwork issue to your company in the future."

I don't think they will accept any payment of fine unless we nominate a driver either.
They also said...
"If the Notice is not returned to this office within the 28 day period prescribed for by law for receipt of Nominations, it will remain in the Company name and, if not paid within the 56 day timeframe, court proceedings may be initiated against the Company."

I don't want to seem uncooperative and do nothing. But that seems to be the option if we can't identify the driver. And then just wait and see.

well they are not much help then!! was that the RSA who said that?

ajamesr

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

well they are not much help then!! was that the RSA who said that?

NO. The NPO. That was the email address for enquires. Maybe I'll try the RSA also.

Yakult

ajamesr wrote: »

There are 5 possible drivers and no one can remember who was driving at 4:04 last Monday.

Surely one of them knows that they were driving at or in around that time and is acting like a coward by not coming forward.

Regards to the matter, nothing more I can suggest than whats been said already.

ajamesr

R_H_C_P wrote: »

Surely one of them knows that they were driving at or in around that time and is acting like a coward by not coming forward.

The fact that its the road right outside our depot makes it very hard to narrow it down. If it was 10 or 15 miles away it would be easier to identify. And that particular van is very much a small run around van used regularly for short runs. In fairness none of them are cowards, just unwilling to take responsibility without some evidence that it was them. They are good lads that don't usually argue or cause trouble, but they are well within their rights in this instance.
In fairness I wouldn't know who was in the van TODAY at 16:00, let alone a week ago.

ScouseMouse

ajamesr wrote: »

The fact that its the road right outside our depot makes it very hard to narrow it down. If it was 10 or 15 miles away it would be easier to identify. And that particular van is very much a small run around van used regularly for short runs. In fairness none of them are cowards, just unwilling to take responsibility without some evidence that it was them. They are good lads that don't usually argue or cause trouble, but they are well within their rights in this instance.
In fairness I wouldn't know who was in the van TODAY at 16:00, let alone a week ago.

Sorry to butt in but how long did it take for the ticket to get to you?

You mention a week ago. Is that literally? So it takes one week for a gatso van to snap you and a ticket to arrive? I may be getting one for my company.....

knifey_spoonie

Im my expericence, nothing will ever come of this, well im waiting 2-3 years now and still have no idea who was driving.

rebel.ranter

A company director is ultimately held responsible for taking the fine/points. It is their responsibility to put something in place to assist in identifying who was driving the vehicle. Similar story for illegal downloading, if a company computer & internet connection is found to be responsible for accessing material illegally the company director is held liable until they can prove the actual guilty party. Big deals were made of both of these items a few years ago where I work (at the time our Director has a UK license, so no points for him!).

When penalty points came in first all the pool vehicles in work were fitted with tracking systems & we were all given swipe cards for the cars. It was a pain in the backside though if you forgot your card, the thing beeped constantly until you swiped. For some reason we have now reverted to booking them through Excel spreadsheets/Outlook/Diary.

Chonker

This happened to us a few years ago 7kph over limit, I simply paid the fine and never mentioned or named the driver, who happened to be me. Nothing ever came back.

ajamesr

Its all a bit frustrating. Many comments seem to contradict each other. "Nothing will come of it" - "the company director will be held responsible".

There doesn't seem to be a clear picture of how this will play out. But as things stand I can't see any other resolution other than to attempt to pay the fine and see what happens.

Its a pity the real criminals of this country weren't pursued with the same vigor as the ordinary working person. As a someone commented on another thread, and I believe some Gardai friends of his told him this, its the honest ones that suffer the full rigors of the law, while the liars get away scott free.

djimi

Probably best to ring the office who issued the fine rather than emailing them. I find a phone conversation is infinately more fruitful than an email conversation. Dont hang up until you get a definitive answer one way or another, and if the person you are speaking to cannot help then ask to speak to someone above them who can.

CiniO

I can't really see how a director can be penalized with points.
First of all he doesn't have to have a licence.
Even if he has, he definitely wasn't driving that vehicle.
Maybe he doesn't use his licence for work at all.
Why then, should he get penalty points?

Second thing that comes into my mind - I would never accept a fine before seeing the picture.
How can you be sure it was your van? Maybe someone just put the same numberplates as yours and was speeding.
I don't know Irish law about speed cameras, but clear picture is a must almost in every country. Otherwise penalty can't be issued.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

I can't really see how a director can be penalized with points.
First of all he doesn't have to have a licence.
Even if he has, he definitely wasn't driving that vehicle.
Maybe he doesn't use his licence for work at all.
Why then, should he get penalty points?

Second thing that comes into my mind - I would never accept a fine before seeing the picture.
How can you be sure it was your van? Maybe someone just put the same numberplates as yours and was speeding.
I don't know Irish law about speed cameras, but clear picture is a must almost in every country. Otherwise penalty can't be issued.

He has seen a picture and obviously is not disputing that it is his companies van. The dispute around the picture is that it cannot show who is driving.

Good point about the company director tho; theres nothing to say a company director has to have a drivers license.

rebel.ranter

This topic has already been discussed before:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055694869

One of the points made is that the owner (in the case of a company car the director) is assumed to be driving, so if the real driver has not been identified the director gets the summons. They would have to go to court to resolve.

rebel.ranter

A link to a 2004 article on the issue here, the relevant section is quoted below:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/11/14/story426603463.asp

Speed traps full of loopholes
Sunday, November 14, 2004
A further weakness in the legislation is the advantage it confers on the drivers of company cars. Official figures released to the PAC, which went unreported, reveal that the gardai are reluctant to pursue speeding cases against these drivers.

This is because the penalty points law only covers the car user. When a camera picks up the speeding driver of a company car, it actually only captures a registration plate registered to a company - an abstract concept not provided for in the legislation.

"The company does not incur penalty points, because the law relates to the user," said chief superintendent John Farrelly, who inherited the penalty points nightmare when he took over the traffic bureau last September. "There is no legislation under which penalty points can be imposed on the company concerned.

"However, there is legislation in place to deal with the failure to nominate a driver.

"We pursue companies in this way."

Asked at the PAC how many companies had been pursued, he said: "There have been 11 instances this year where we have initiated proceedings.

There have been one or two convictions. Normally it is the company secretary who is brought to court."

Up to last December 31, about 235 companies had failed to nominate a driver.

John Curran, a Fianna Fáil TD, noted that only one in 20 companies had been pursued through the courts. The temptation for many to defy the law might be irresistible.

Aylward said the law might have to be amended.

"If we find, on advice from the gardai, that the system is simply proving too unwieldy, we have agreed with our colleagues in the Department of Transport that they should be willing, in the context of forthcoming road traffic legislation - either legislative vehicles already under way or subsequent ones - to tidy up the law.

"This would make it more convenient administratively for the gardai to go after the company that is failing to identify its driver.

"At the moment, it is slightly unwieldy, since the garda has to identify the court area, and, if resourced, the investigation must get after the company, its secretary and so on. However, it will not be allowed to emerge as a significant loophole."

Julie O'Neill, a senior civil servant in the Department of Transport, said: "It is a great incentive to nominate people, if owners know they will attract the points if they do not do so. It is clearly a somewhat different issue where companies are concerned.

"We want to facilitate the gardai in any way possible to pursue the company, and we are exploring the idea of going beyond simply making the company responsible for nominating the individual driving the car.

"A named person in the company, such as the company secretary, might be assigned that responsibility specifically, making it easier for the gardai to pursue the matter to prosecution. Several other issues arise from time to time regarding the legislation.

CiniO

rebel.ranter wrote: »

This topic has already been discussed before:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055694869

One of the points made is that the owner (in the case of a company car the director) is assumed to be driving, so if the real driver has not been identified the director gets the summons. They would have to go to court to resolve.

So again the question that I asked a while ago.
What if company director doesn't have a driving licence.
Is he still assumed he was driving?
If so, he will have to be charged for driving without licence, and for driving without insurance (as company's policy couldn't cover him as he just doesn't have licence).

Mr. Presentable

ajamesr wrote: »

Its a pity the real criminals of this country weren't pursued with the same vigor as the ordinary working person. .

This kind of crap winds me up. Someone in your company knows he/she was doing 40% over the speed limit and you say the Gardai should be chasing "real criminals".

I don't know how this will pan out, but as a company director I would expect to be capable of knowing who was at the wheel or take the rap myself.

Bumpstop

I dunno if this helps but here is my experience.
I got a speeding notification in the mail with a tiny photo of my reg plate. It was the front reg plate so I guessed it was a Gatso van.
Now there is no way I will accept a summary fine, So I wait for my court summons. When it arrives about 8 weeks later, it had a full blown picture of the front of the car, with me clearly visible. So the gatso must take a full photo.

Esel

Surely your company has CCTV - which could be used to identify the driver.

If not, please PM all details.

Meeoow

if a private vehicle is done for speeding, it is assumed that the owner is driving unless proven otherwise.
Why shouldn't it be the same for you?
If your company get off scot free, everyone would use the same excuse and get off fines. someone has to be accountable or everyone would use that excuse.
So suck it up, admit who was driving the van, and let them suffer the consequences.

ajamesr

Meeoow wrote: »

if a private vehicle is done for speeding, it is assumed that the owner is driving unless proven otherwise.
Why shouldn't it be the same for you?
If your company get off scot free, everyone would use the same excuse and get off fines. someone has to be accountable or everyone would use that excuse.
So suck it up, admit who was driving the van, and let them suffer the consequences.

Our company has 4 directors. Which one should be held responsible. And I love the way many assume that we are trying to avoid some penalty. Has it not occured to anyone that we genuinely do not know who was driving? The offense took place 100 yards from our depot, someone could have jumped in the van to go and get milk from the shop around the corner and that was the offence, but we can't remember who went up to get the milk, or drop a customer back, or collect a part at exactly that time on Monday. Its a little run around van that gets used for short, small trips and as soon as it comes back someone else hops in to go and do something else.
Honestly we could not in good faith nominate a driver. We would have no problem admitting who was driving if we knew without doubt.
And by the way we are not looking to get off scott free. We have offered to pay the fine.
I would rather people would presume that we genuinely cannot be sure who was driving rather than jump to the conculsion that we are trying to pull a fast one, effectivley accussing me of lying.
My original question was if we HONESTLY (and there are still some honest people living in Irleand dispite the example our governemnt ministers set) cannot identify the driver, then what is the LAWS stand on this?

Please don't reply if your answer is simply going to accuse me of lying...

Saruman

If the company director can emphatically prove that they were not driving (out of the country or something) then surely they can not be given the points?

Gophur

A Company cannot be held liable for penalty points and cannot be forced to identify a driver. You may be fined.

It may get a day in Court for you, but if you get a solicitor to plead that the identity of the driver is unknown, despite your best efforts, you should be OK.

Shelli2

I don't think people should be accusing you of lying, but irresponsibility certainly. As a manager surely you should have a system in place to know who is driving what at all times. And definately whoever was driving the van knows and is not owning up, so they are lying.

Anyway, back to your question. Yes, the director of the company will be liable for the points if he does not nominate someone. I've had first hand exerience of this in the company I used to work for, the director was taken to court and had a larger fine imposed, the judge did not look favourably on him, said he had wasted court time.

If there are 4 directors I'm not sure how this would work, also the point made earlier, if the director has no licence? Although, can a company buy vehicles and insure them if the main policy holder (whom I'm guessing would be the director) has no licence? Not sure how business policies work.

Gophur

Shelli2 wrote: »

........... Yes, the director of the company will be liable for the points if he does not nominate someone. ..........

Check this out, first.

The Legislation refers to a person, not a company.

Read this article
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/11/14/story426603463.asp

ajamesr

Shelli2 wrote: »

As a manager surely you should have a system in place to know who is driving what at all times. And definately whoever was driving the van knows and is not owning up, so they are lying.

NO. We have no system in place to keep track of this. When I came in about 3 years ago, no system was in place and until now it had never occured to me that one would be needed or was legally required - in fact I am still not sure that one is legally required.
We have two vans. One large for long distance jobs, and one small for little trips, shop runs, customer drop of and collection etc etc.
I honestly don't beleive that whoever was driving knows for sure that it was them. As I said before, the road were the offence took place is right outside our door and therefore everyone that uses the van would use that road and basically everyone has a valid argument why it would not be them and could be someone else. I get the impression also that were we to nominate someone that we thought was driving, that that person could then accuse us of falsly identifying them as the driver without any proof.

Shelli2

ajamesr wrote: »

NO. We have no system in place to keep track of this. When I came in about 3 years ago, no system was in place and until now it had never occured to me that one would be needed or was legally required - in fact I am still not sure that one is legally required.
We have two vans. One large for long distance jobs, and one small for little trips, shop runs, customer drop of and collection etc etc.
I honestly don't beleive that whoever was driving knows for sure that it was them. As I said before, the road were the offence took place is right outside our door and therefore everyone that uses the van would use that road and basically everyone has a valid argument why it would not be them and could be someone else. I get the impression also that were we to nominate someone that we thought was driving, that that person could then accuse us of falsly identifying them as the driver without any proof.

I do sympathise with you, it's a tricky situation. As I said, I've seen it before, and it was only after the director was given the points on his licence that we had systems put in place.

Drummerboy08

Thank christ I dont have to deal with this one!

We have a driver assigned to each car in work - obviously they are the only drivers of the vehicle most of the time, so its easy to keep track of. When it comes to pooled vehicles its a different kettle of fish.

I am genuinely surprised that the picture is not of good enough quality to at least help identify the driver. I got in a speeding fine not too long ago, where the driver of the car was female. We contacted the driver and told her and she said "Yep, that was me, send it on". We did so, but a few days later the fine came back, with the enlarged photo and a little note saying "unless your female driver has a wierd sense of fashion, most women don't wear a shirt and tie to work"

I'd try to eliminate the drivers who couldnt have been driving - those on calls, out of the office etc. Surely someone knows when they took the car?

ajamesr

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Thank christ I dont have to deal with this one!



I'd try to eliminate the drivers who couldnt have been driving - those on calls, out of the office etc. Surely someone knows when they took the car?

Unfortunately all staff were in the depot that afternoon. Some had been out earlier in the day doing some jobs but by the afternoon everyone was in the depot. As I mentioned before, the fact that it happened within 30sec of the depot makes it difficult to be certain of who was driving. It could have just been someone going to get milk, or any number of small errands. When your not watching for who's jumping in and out of the van to run here and there for these small little trips its impossible to say with any certainty who it was. And in fairness to the lads there should be some evidence to show them who was at fault rather than just guessing at who we think might have been in the van at that time.
The fact is WE have no hard evidence or proof of who was driving and the Gardai can provide no hard evidence or proof of who was driving - should I be really asked to give a good guess who was driving? Or should any of the lads be asked to volunteer that it was them when they themselves could not be sure?
Had the offence taken place say 10 or 15 miles away in a particular village or on a main road leading to a nearby town then we would not have much trouble identifying the driver. We have a log of what jobs are done where and when and who did that job - so an offence taking place further away could be traced back, and even without a photo the fitter would be reasonable to admit that it had to be him. But so close to the depot makes it impossible to be sure because it was most likely a short trip of 5 or 10 mins, before someone else heads off for another short trip. That small van is constantly on the go for loads of such small runs around the place.

CiniO

The whole system seems to be bit strange and that causes problems.
Because how can they assume, that if you can't identify driver it was the owner.
Nonsense - owner might even never drive this car.

For comparision i'll tell ya how it works in Poland.
If someone get a picture from speed camera, and driver can't be identified by the owner (bad quality picture, face unknown to the owner, picture from the back, etc.) then the owner is liable for not disclosing a drivers detaild.
In other words, owner (no matter if it's a company or private person) is required to remember or have logged how was driving his car and when. If he doesn't in case of a speed camera picture, he get's penalty (just money, no points) for not disclosing driver's details.
Usually that penalty is bigger then speeding ticket.

johnos1984

OP out of interest are you not legally required by your insurer to have a log of all the people who driver your company vehicles and when they are doing so in case your vehicles are involved in any incidents?

ajamesr

johnos1984 wrote: »

OP out of interest are you not legally required by your insurer to have a log of all the people who driver your company vehicles and when they are doing so in case your vehicles are involved in any incidents?

No such requirement in place. Just a list of drivers who will drive the vehicles throughout the year and copies of their licences. And as far as I can tell there is no legal requirement to do so either.
Most companies may do this for their own reasons or it may be the case with many companies that a vehicle is the responsibilty of one person but we have 2 vans and the small one in particular is driven a lot by everyone for many various reasons.
As I said before usually it wouldn't be a huge issue but the close proximity to the depot opens it up in a way that everyone would have a fair case to say that someone else could have been driving it for that few minutes.

rebel.ranter

As I said before a director must take responsibility, if a director has no license or has a UK license (like one of our ex-directors had) then the director is liable for the fine & no penalty points are issued.
The reason a director must take responsibility is because they ate deemed to be ultimately in charge. By not having a proper log system in place (a small diary in the van would do) you as a durector have effectively taken responsibility for anything that happens with that vehicle. I don't understand how this is not clear.
As to which director, one of you has to stand up & be counted, in some companies it might be clear cut who takes responsibility, e.g. If the vehicle belonged to a technology department then the technology director assumes responsibility. If one of the directors assumed control of the fleet then this is the director who assumes responsibilty. Oh, by assuming responsibility I don't mean they pay the fine & take the points, they could do that but really they should take whatever action is necessary to resolve.
You (or one of the other 3 directors) will have to wait for a summons to arrive, then go to court to plead your case. This offense has been logged in pulse & no Garda can resolve now, it has to go through to the end, i.e. Court if the fine is not paid.

You have two options:

1. Draw straws in the office as to who will take the penalty points.
2. One of you as a director go court to plead your case. I suggest you put a log system for the van in place (e.g. mini diary) & tell the judge it won't happen again. Perhaps he will just hit you with the fine & a bit of a lecture if you're lucky.
I have been responsible for a fleet of pool vehicles for the past 5 years & it was impressed on us from the start of penalty points (when I was just a pool vehicle driver, not manager) that we needed to record all usage. The company I work for take all these types of things very seriously & at the time invested in a serious tracking system to overcome these problems, I distinctly remember the director saying that he put these systems in place si that he did not end up in court taking the fall.
I genuinely believe you that you don't know who was driving but you are responsible, read the article I posted.
Best of luck.

BeardyGit

ajamesr wrote: »

The fact that its the road right outside our depot makes it very hard to narrow it down. If it was 10 or 15 miles away it would be easier to identify. And that particular van is very much a small run around van used regularly for short runs. In fairness none of them are cowards, just unwilling to take responsibility without some evidence that it was them. They are good lads that don't usually argue or cause trouble, but they are well within their rights in this instance.
In fairness I wouldn't know who was in the van TODAY at 16:00, let alone a week ago.

If you have a depot with a number of different people working there, surely you have CCTV on the premises? It's already been suggested but you've not replied as far as I can see.

Also, you can get a digital 'logging' key box to install in the depot with multiple access codes. The keybox will log who's opened the box, date, time etc. That would allow you easily find out who had the key at a particular time and date. One log entry when it's opened to take the key, one when it's returned. Make each driver personally responsible for obtaining and returning the key for the van from the keybox at the beginning and end of each period of use.

It'll add literally seconds to the start and finish of a trip, but remove any future ambiguity over who was the responsible keyholder at the time of a penalty being incurred. Warn them not to just pass the keys over, or they'll carry the can if the person they give them to is done for speeding, parking etc.

No PIN, no key, no journey, no hassle for you/directors.

Esel

^ That digital entry key box system sounds like it would be very effective.

deargas

Is there a follow up to this yet. I'd be interested to know how the court case went. Surely it has to actually go to court and be tested.

Our man in Havana

Until legislation to compel naming the driver comes in nothing can be done to companies who don't name.

Hooch

Haddockman wrote: »

Until legislation to compel naming the driver comes in nothing can be done to companies who don't name.

Section 107.......

I havint read the entire thread but there is precedence for this. The company will be prosecuted under Section 107 and a sizable fine is usually given......a fine that is usually upheld by the Circuit court. The disqualification order that usually follows a Sec 107 prosecution is not taken into account in this case......although company directors and transport managers have been threatened with prison time.....I have never seen it happen.