All Primary / Secondary Masters Courses - Post Q's Here Please

Toto Wolfcastle

This thread can be used to ask questions about the PME (Primary and Post Primary)

Please search this thread to see if your question has been answered before posting in it.

Keep in mind that course requirements can change and college experiences vary between students.

peanuthead

Great stuff, janeybabe, I will kick off with this one:

How do I apply for the PGDE?

To apply for the PGDE you will go through PAC, which is the postgraduate applications centre.

http://www.pac.ie

Colleges that use the PAC system are:

NUIM
UCD
UCC
NUIG - as gaeilge option

• For 2009-10 entry, the deadline was December 1st and the fee was €80. There is a late applications date sometime in January and the fee for that is €120
  
• The system is very much like the CAO system for undergraduates and you will be allocated a number of points depending on your final year results (2nd year results if applying during your 3rd year) and any other postgraduate courses you have done (minimum requirement of a 1year full time course)
  
• There are no longer points given for teaching practice, although its not a bad idea to have some done before deciding the course is for you.
  
• The times you are in college and in school will vary from college to college.
  
• The fees in 2009-10 were around the 6.5K mark.
  
• You are not paid for teaching practice.

The other colleges that offer the PGDE in Ireland are:

TCD
Application through the college. Interview and application based. For those doing Modern Foreign Languages, a portion of your interview is carried out in that language. In 2009 is cost €50 to apply through Trinity. Deadline was December 1st 2009 for 2009-10 entry.

DCU
Application through the college. This is a part time, 2 year course.

Talanta

I just worked out my points from the PAC website. I have 44, but the points for this year were 43 and not everybody with that got offered a place.

Would I be cutting it fine to go for it with just 44 points?

delta_bravo

I expect points to go down next year for NUI colleges as teaching experience is no longer valued.

Toto Wolfcastle

Thread merged with PGDE thread.

peanuthead

Talanta wrote: »

I just worked out my points from the PAC website. I have 44, but the points for this year were 43 and not everybody with that got offered a place.

Would I be cutting it fine to go for it with just 44 points?

delta_bravo wrote: »

I expect points to go down next year for NUI colleges as teaching experience is no longer valued.

I find it hard to predict whether points will go up or down.

In one way you could expect them to go down because of what you say delta_bravo.

The other side to that is that the points would be expected to remain more or less the same, meaning that teachers without sufficient points will have to do something like a masters first. I personally don't like this idea, however it may go this way for a while.

There are a lot of unqualified teachers in Ireland working under contracts and afaik a number of places are being allocated to those (exempt from the application process I imagine)

It would actually suit pac to have less successful applicants as they will technically have less places until the entire current working population of teachers are actually qualified if I understand this correctly.

Cat Melodeon

I'm playing around with the idea of doing the PGDE but have a feeling I'd have to go back and re-do my undergrad degree so any advice would be welcome. I have a BSc in International Studies with an undergrad Diploma in Politics and Government from Open University, as well as an MA in Sociology from UL. Does anyone have any idea if that would qualify me to teach CSPE (and hopefully the proposed Society & Politics subject if it ever gets introduced)? I got firsts in the BSc & MA, if that makes any difference.

Additionally, I did two years of English at UCD a few years ago but didn't complete the degree (flunked Geography). Could that be counted towards anything?

I know they don't count teaching experience any more, but I've also worked as an SNA and done resource teaching (unqualified rates, needless to say) as well as a few years' TEFL teaching abroad (not with an ACELS-recognised qualification though).

Edit: Forgot to say I've also done 3rd level tutoring and a small amount of lecturing at UL - this is what I really want to be doing, but family constraints mean I need to work locally for a few years and this type of work is simply not available where I live.

pathway33

There will no longer be points available for unqualified teaching experience as before but there will for 2011 entry be points for previous professional experience such as youth sports coach, youth organiser, social worker, translator (for language teachers). Check it out http://www.pac.ie/pgdeinfo/PointsCalc.php?inst=pe

Toto Wolfcastle

I wouldn't do the PGDE in the hope of becoming a CSPE teacher. CSPE, despite being an exam subject, is generally given to teachers as a timetable filler. That's my experience anyway. You'd need another subject to get you into a school.

My advice would be to go back and finish your English degree. There are too many English teachers floating around as it is but seeing as you already have 2 years done it would save you having to do a full degree again. How many years of Geography did you do in that degree? Would you consider going back to finish that? It would be good to have another subject besides English and CSPE and if you already have some Geography done that's half the battle.

Otherwise you will have to do another degree to teach other subjects. Good luck.

Alanaccounting

pathway33 wrote: »

There will no longer be points available for unqualified teaching experience as before but there will for 2011 entry be points for previous professional experience such as youth sports coach, youth organiser, social worker, translator (for language teachers). Check it out http://www.pac.ie/pgdeinfo/PointsCalc.php?inst=pe

Makes a lot of sense that professional experience now counts, you can have all the theory you want but you learn more from practice

Cat Melodeon

janeybabe wrote: »

I wouldn't do the PGDE in the hope of becoming a CSPE teacher. CSPE, despite being an exam subject, is generally given to teachers as a timetable filler. That's my experience anyway. You'd need another subject to get you into a school.

My advice would be to go back and finish your English degree. There are too many English teachers floating around as it is but seeing as you already have 2 years done it would save you having to do a full degree again. How many years of Geography did you do in that degree? Would you consider going back to finish that? It would be good to have another subject besides English and CSPE and if you already have some Geography done that's half the battle.

Otherwise you will have to do another degree to teach other subjects. Good luck.

Getting into a school wouldn't be too much of a problem - I've a very good relationship with the principal in the school where I worked as an SNA/taught resource and she's always throwing bits of work my way. I'd continue doing this (don't need full-time work) but just get annoyed by the lower rates of pay for unqualified teachers. Really I just want the HDip/PGDE and continue as I am, but get paid more for it.

peanuthead

Alanaccounting wrote: »

Makes a lot of sense that professional experience now counts, you can have all the theory you want but you learn more from practice

Which, if I'm getting your point correctly, doesn't make sense to disallow teaching experience for points. IMO of all the professional experience you could have, classroom exp would have to be the most valuable, no?

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Getting into a school wouldn't be too much of a problem - I've a very good relationship with the principal in the school where I worked as an SNA/taught resource and she's always throwing bits of work my way. I'd continue doing this (don't need full-time work) but just get annoyed by the lower rates of pay for unqualified teachers. Really I just want the HDip/PGDE and continue as I am, but get paid more for it.

Someone feel free to step in here and tell me I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain that unqualified rates are actually HIGHER than qualifieds. I think it has something to do with the fact that you have no holiday pay entitlements etc..??

Also, no disrespect, after all I don't know your circumstances, but the advice you were given about CSPE as a subject was given from someone looking at the bigger picture. If for whatever reason you ever find yourself looking for employment in a school other than the one where your relationship with the principal is good, your chances of getting one with only CSPE on your TC cert is extremely low.

Positions tend to be advertised for a subject with CSPE, I've never seen it advertised alone before.

With juniors only taking it and with that them taking it only once per week in the majority of cases, you would have to be in a large school to end up with a substantial contract.

I think you will find that most people here will suggest you try get another subject.

patma

I have studied three years at collage and have recieved my ordinary degree in business studies~(level 7) I have taken a year out and have decided i would like to go on to do secondary school teaching.
Has anyone some advice of how i could go about this? I am interested in both- doing it in the UK or Ireland?

all help would be appreciated?

Toto Wolfcastle

Post moved to PGDE thread.

JohnMearsheimer

Just wondering if doing a H.Dip in a subject like history or geography would allow me to teach it at second level?

Cat Melodeon

peanuthead wrote: »

Someone feel free to step in here and tell me I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain that unqualified rates are actually HIGHER than qualifieds. I think it has something to do with the fact that you have no holiday pay entitlements etc..??

Also, no disrespect, after all I don't know your circumstances, but the advice you were given about CSPE as a subject was given from someone looking at the bigger picture. If for whatever reason you ever find yourself looking for employment in a school other than the one where your relationship with the principal is good, your chances of getting one with only CSPE on your TC cert is extremely low.

Positions tend to be advertised for a subject with CSPE, I've never seen it advertised alone before.

With juniors only taking it and with that them taking it only once per week in the majority of cases, you would have to be in a large school to end up with a substantial contract.

I think you will find that most people here will suggest you try get another subject.

Thanks for that.
I'm only looking to teach short-term so going back to do more undergrad isn't really an option for me. I've done (and have the opportunity to do again) home tutoring for which the unqualified rate is almost half that of the qualified rate - it's a bit frustrating really. I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and go back to the 3.5 hour round trip to Limerick for work, baby in tow...

peanuthead

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

Just wondering if doing a H.Dip in a subject like history or geography would allow me to teach it at second level?

It would indeed, providing that your undergraduate degree is in both history and geography.

peanuthead

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Thanks for that.
I'm only looking to teach short-term so going back to do more undergrad isn't really an option for me. I've done (and have the opportunity to do again) home tutoring for which the unqualified rate is almost half that of the qualified rate - it's a bit frustrating really. I'm probably going to have to bite the bullet and go back to the 3.5 hour round trip to Limerick for work, baby in tow...

Look, everyones situations are different. Just because its a lot of peoples dream to be permanent with 2 subjects and 18-22 hours, doesn't mean that it has to be yours.

If doing the DIP in CSPE only is what works for you then go for it. AFAIK you don't HAVE to study 2 subjects, its just recommended that you do for employability.

If you know you can get work that suits you by doing things your way then go for it.

dmainmanmono

Hello i am currently studying for a PGCE in England, I was just wondering is it Hard to get the dip year back home? have many been given out and should i start applying soon?

peanuthead

dmainmanmono wrote: »

Hello i am currently studying for a PGCE in England, I was just wondering is it Hard to get the dip year back home? have many been given out and should i start applying soon?

If you are looking to do the DIP here in Ireland, you can request an application form from PAC.IE and it will have to be in by Dec 1st.

You may also apply independently to TCD, call them for an application form. I think the deadline is the same.

Getting in here works on a points system. There are nowhere near the same amount of places on offer here that there are in the UK. It seems to be the case that unless you have a very high 2.1 or 1st you won't get into the PGDE course here with an undergrad alone.

In that case you will need to do a postgraduate qualification of some kind, a certificate, diploma or masters or something like that.

I happen to know there were some people applying last year who had PHDs :eek::eek: so obviously enough these people will be more or less guaranteed places ahead of you. You are up against that.

My advice to you or to anyone in the same position is to apply to both PAC and TCD and then go ahead and apply to the UK too.

Toto Wolfcastle

dmainmanmono wrote: »

Hello i am currently studying for a PGCE in England, I was just wondering is it Hard to get the dip year back home? have many been given out and should i start applying soon?

Are you studying to be a primary teacher and wondering about the probation year in Ireland or do you want to do the PGDE (secondary teaching qualification) in Ireland?

implausible

peanuthead wrote: »

Someone feel free to step in here and tell me I'm wrong, but I'm almost certain that unqualified rates are actually HIGHER than qualifieds.

There are three types of sub teacher whose pay is calculated by the hour: unqualified casual, qualified casual and non-casual (fixed term e.g. maternity leave). You're confusing 'unqualified' with 'casual'. From TUI diary:

Qualified casual hourly rate (incl. holiday pay) = €46.85
Unqualified hourly rate (incl. holiday pay) = €40.85
Qualified non-casual teachers get a rate of pay that's in line with their point on the scale and inclusive of holiday pay.

dmainmanmono

I am studying for a Pgce in primary education. I am looking to do my dip year back home in ireland but have heard without irish it is very hard to get?

Toto Wolfcastle

I'm not an expert in primary teaching, but afaik you will have to do the Irish exam (SCG?) when you return to Ireland. I don't know how long you have to do this exam. Without Irish you will find it difficult to get a job do complete your dip year. There are hundreds of primary teachers qualifying each year who have Irish and who are all looking for jobs.

I could be wrong here, but I don't think it's as simple as them giving out places to do the dip. I think you have to just apply for jobs and hope that you get a contract long enough to complete the dip year. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

Edit: Perhaps there is only a certain amount of people who they will inspect in any given year? I don't know, I think I'm just confusing you as well as myself. The first part of my post still stands though.

JohnMearsheimer

Sorry for postng ths question again but I never got an answer to it as a bit of debate brewed up about something else and I think my question got a bit lost in it. Anyway, just wondering if doing a H.Dip in a subject that is taught in a secondary school like history make me eligible to teach it? Thanks.

implausible

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

Sorry for postng ths question again but I never got an answer to it as a bit of debate brewed up about something else and I think my question got a bit lost in it. Anyway, just wondering if doing a H.Dip in a subject that is taught in a secondary school like history make me eligible to teach it? Thanks.

Didn't Peanuthead already answer this? Yes, if you have a degree in History and you do a H.Dip (in Education, it's called the PGDE now), you can teach it.

JohnMearsheimer

Sorry deemark, I should have been clearer. I have a degree in politics which I can only use for teaching CSPE which would be a bit pointless. I was wondering if I did a H.Dip in history first (the subject on its own) would it make me eligible to teach history if I went on to do the PGCE?

implausible

I didn't know you could do a H.Dip in History! The answer is 'no' I'm afraid, you have to have the subject in your primary degree. The TC looks for:

"(a) A suitable degree or equivalent award, not including a training-in-teaching qualification, but with recognised post-primary subject(s) taken as major component(s) of the degree programme. The duration of such a degree programme must be at least three years of full-time study or equivalent. "

JohnMearsheimer

Yep, you can do one in UCC. Looks like its back to the drawing board for me!

readystudypass

JohnMearsheimer wrote: »

Yep, you can do one in UCC. Looks like its back to the drawing board for me!

I'm vaguely familiar with the H.Dip in History in UCC and I believe the modules are taken from the 2nd and 3rd year of the undergraduate degree. Because you already have a degree that requirement is satisfied for the Teaching Council. The next requirement is have you covered the required number of credits in an undergraduate degree as outlined by the Teaching Council. Obviously, yes you would, if you choose the appropriate modules related to the Leaving Cert syllabus. In the vast majority of cases only an undergraduate degree will be recognised. However there is precedent for a Higher Diploma being recognised (The H.Dip in Theology in NUI Maynooth allows qualified teachers of other subjects to teach religion).

It would be foolish to do the H.Dip in History in the hope that the Teaching Council will listen to the case outlined above, and it is unlikely they will give you a definite answer before you present the completed qualification. However I believe where a higher diploma consists of undergraduate modules, the case is strong. I'm not that familiar with the modules offered but I believe if you chose 12th century history, then that module could not be counted because it does not cover the period examinable under the Leaving Certificate. The emphasis on undergraduate modules is emphasised by the fact that if you in your situation were to manage to get into a Masters in History it would be completely useless to you in terms of being recognised by the Teaching Council as a qualification to teach history.

As an alternative, would you consider the BA at www.oscail.ie . It is fully recognised by the Teaching Council to teach history (and english if you choose the literature modules). Degree holders also get some exemptions. It's distance learning with occasional face2face tutorials.

That's all I have to offer I'm afraid.

VonLuck

I have an honours degree in engineering from DIT which I believe allows me to do a H.Dip in Mathematics, Physics and Computer Science.

I am not very familiar with the whole process but do I have to do a full time year long H.Dip course to become qualified to teach? A friend of mine mentioned that there was a part time course you could do while teaching (possibly substitute teaching? I'm not sure). Is there any truth to that?

Also, is it possible for me to teach Technical Drawing? From my course I believe I have much more experience in drawing than I do in all the aspects of physics but it isn't listed... Is there any way around this or was it necessary for me to have done a 3 year course in something else?

Thanks.