Incorporating BJJ into Traditional MA's ?

HellsAngel

Are TMA clubs incorporating techniques of BJJ/ground fighting into Karate/TKD/Wing Chun/whatever ? Are they

A) Depends on the instructor ?

Sticking to the style syllabus as it's not allowed/seen as side tracking the style etc ?

C) Not at the moment but maybe in future ?

D) Oooohhh, those boys play too rough for me. I do Martial Arts for fun, learning to defend myself is not my aim.

What's your thoughts or experiences folks ?

Tim_Murphy

Careful now! What you are talking about is Step 1 in the how to get excommunicated from the group handbook. :pac:

arybvtcw0eolkf

OP, you do know that BJJ isn't MMA?.

Karate/TKD/Wing Chun/whatever

"Whatever" .. what would you like us to include here?.

HellsAngel

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

Careful now! What you are talking about is Step 1 in the how to get excommunicated from the group handbook. :pac:

Yes Tim, as Mr. Miyagi in the Karate Kid would say " We make sacred pact. I promise teach karate to you, you promise learn. I say, you do, no questions. "

Pontificatus

In general i think its fair to say that the market dictates what the teacher teaches.

Several TMA's originally had some sort of grappling involved in them. During the points fighting and kickboxing years those skills were ignored in favour of standup. Now that MMA is fashionable, more grappling skills are being incorporated into these TMA's.

EnjoyChoke

Alex Whispering Youngster wrote: »

OP, you do know that BJJ isn't MMA?.

It's not??!! :eek:

OLDMAN1

HellsAngel wrote: »

Are TMA clubs incorporating techniques of BJJ/ground fighting into Karate/TKD/Wing Chun/whatever ? Are they

A) Depends on the instructor ?

Sticking to the style syllabus as it's not allowed/seen as side tracking the style etc ?

C) Not at the moment but maybe in future ?

D) Oooohhh, those boys play too rough for me. I do Martial Arts for fun, learning to defend myself is not my aim.

What's your thoughts or experiences folks ?

why would want to introduce bjj into those arts?

HellsAngel

Alex Whispering Youngster wrote: »

OP, you do know that BJJ isn't MMA?.

Yes, I do very much so. A lot of non BJJ/MMAers think BJJ and MMA are the same thing, in fact in my experience most non BJJ/MMAers think it's the same thing. That's why I stated MMA/BJJ in the hope of covering most bases.

"Whatever" .. what would you like us to include here?.

Kicky Boxing, Ninjitsu, Eskirma, etc

Pontificatus

HellsAngel wrote: »

Eskirma, etc

Just to point out that PMA has always been very forward thinking and there is a lot of grappling included.

HellsAngel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

why would want to introduce bjj into those arts?

Ground fighting is essential to know if you want to be realistic about self defence in my humble opinion ( and throughly enjoyable once you give a few classes a go ) etc. Not trying to be sarcastic, but anyone who has been in a few school yard digging matches or brawles in later life should know that their is a high likelyhood of it going to the floor.

Not going to get into a discussion about the likelyhood of it not going to the floor - " my striking skills would prevent that, I know as Sensi says so " sort of self deception. Although a professional and a different story, multiple professional boxing champion James Toney's claims about not going to the ground didn't last in the recent UFC against Randy Couture.

HellsAngel

Pontificatus wrote: »

Just to point out that PMA has always been very forward thinking and there is a lot of grappling included.

PMA what's that ? ( Not included in the acroymns in the charter )

OLDMAN1

HellsAngel wrote: »

Ground fighting is essential to know if you want to be realistic about self defence in my humble opinion ( and throughly enjoyable once you give a few classes a go ) etc. Not trying to be sarcastic, but anyone who has been in a few school yard digging matches or brawles in later life should know that their is a high likelyhood of it going to the floor.

Not going to get into a discussion about the likelyhood of it not going to the floor - " my striking skills would prevent that, I know as Sensi says so " sort of self deception. Although a professional and a different story, multiple professional boxing champion James Toney's claims about not going to the ground didn't last in the recent UFC against Randy Couture.

Im not saying that ground work isn't important, of course it is , thats the reason i train in it as well as wrestling, but you dont seem to have any knowlodge on the martial arts that you mentioned, so maybe they have there reasons that YOU dont understand,although bjj is a great syatem it is not the be all and end all of martial arts, if people want to train in ground work, maybe they should consider judo or sambo. i agree Toney got his arse kicked when he was taken to the ground(by a wrestler not a bjj'er) but i also remember bj penn a black belt in bjj beating diago sanshez with striking and takedown defence and as far as i can remember never going to the ground during the fight(but i could be wrong) ...

Pontificatus

HellsAngel wrote: »

PMA what's that ? ( Not included in the acroymns in the charter )

Progressive Martial Arts ala Dan Inosanto which includes elements of Filipino ma's, JKD, BJJ etc

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Im not saying that ground work isn't important, of course it is , thats the reason i train in it as well as wrestling, but you dont seem to have any knowlodge on the martial arts that you mentioned, so maybe they have there reasons that YOU dont understand,although bjj is a great syatem it is not the be all and end all of martial arts, if people want to train in ground work, maybe they should consider judo or sambo. i agree Toney got his arse kicked when he was taken to the ground but i also remember bj penn a black belt in bjj beating diago sanshez with striking and takedown defence and as far as i can remember never going to the ground during the fight(but i could be wrong) ...

You are correct that BJJ isnt the be all and end all of groundfighting in this country but it is perhaps the one available to the highest level at the moment. What level of Sambo or anything else is available here?

I'm trying to be careful not to insult any Judo guys here, but i'm not sure i would consider Judo as much a ground fighting system as BJJ.

What system do you train for use on the ground?

arybvtcw0eolkf

HellsAngel wrote: »

Yes, I do very much so. A lot of non BJJ/MMAers think BJJ and MMA are the same thing, in fact in my experience most non BJJ/MMAers think it's the same thing. That's why I stated MMA/BJJ in the hope of covering most bases.

Good stuff, the title is still confusing so, why not just leave out the MMA from the title?..

I agree with you, I'd also add that some people training in BJJ would like to have other's believe they're training in MMA too.

I can't really comment on too many other style's as I'm only experienced in Kickboxing (no ground work) and Judo (lots of ground work), whats your background?.

HellsAngel

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Im not saying that ground work isn't important, of course it is , thats the reason i train in it as well as wrestling, but you dont seem to have any knowlodge on the martial arts that you mentioned, so maybe they have there reasons that YOU dont understand,although bjj is a great syatem it is not the be all and end all of martial arts, if people want to train in ground work, maybe they should consider judo or sambo.

Fair enough. Black belt in TKD, Blue in BJJ, boxed a bit also. BJJ is indeed not the be all and end all of martial arts, but as far as I can see it is the most important area of grappling to master first.

In a street situation geting Mr Average to the ground is not difficult, nor for him to get a striker only ( TKDer, boxer etc ) down - catching a foot kick and then sweep, rugby type tackle, grabbing you in a schoolboy neck hold and pulling you to the ground etc Lets say you have a few Greeco Roman ( and how many fellas in Ireland would have this ) wrestling takedowns or 'tricks' as some guys might call it , or a guy from some style that allows foot sweeps, Kenpo Karate and styles of kick Boxing I believe have sweeps in their sparring. If he hasn't got the ground game then he is not not going to be able to capitalise on it.

I know someone could say " I have some Judo takedowns and throws and have enough to finish an untrained opponent on the floor " and that's a 100% valid. Judo is a great grappling art, but I still say, against Mr Average been able to defend yourself if it hits the ground is the first and most important step in grappling self defence and BJJ is possibly the best art to start with.

When your compenent on the floor, getting Mr Average ( and BJJ does have some takedowns/throws) to the floor can then be developed to make a guy well rounded.

i agree Toney got his arse kicked when he was taken to the ground but i also remember bj penn a black belt in bjj beating diago sanshez with striking and takedown defence and as far as i can remember never going to the ground during the fight(but i could be wrong) ...

Ok, I understand your point and it was me who mentioned the UFC and we're both just trying to bring in examples, but I don't want to get into MMA v MMA fighter, it's for the MMA forum.

But Diago Sanshez is also a black belt in BJJ ( and a very good one at that ). Why neither of them took it to the floor, I don't know. If I remember Joe Rogan said two good BJJers can sometimes cancel each other out and hence don't want to grapple. Well that's what Joe said and he's a black belt under Eddie Bravo.

HellsAngel

Alex Whispering Youngster wrote: »

Good stuff, the title is still confusing so, why not just leave out the MMA from the title?..

I agree with you, I'd also add that some people training in BJJ would like to have other's believe they're training in MMA too.

I can't really comment on too many other style's as I'm only experienced in Kickboxing (no ground work) and Judo (lots of ground work), whats your background?.

Black belt in TKD, Blue in BJJ, boxed a bit also. Will edit title. Yes some people training in BJJ would like to have other's believe they're training in MMA too. But do they tend to be white collar workers or Decko or Scobie bragging to his mates on the building site ?

OLDMAN1

You are correct that BJJ isnt the be all and end all of groundfighting in this country but it is perhaps the one available to the highest level at the moment. What level of Sambo or anything else is available here?

there are some good Sambo guys here,, but not many...

I'm trying to be careful not to insult any Judo guys here, but i'm not sure i would consider Judo as much a ground fighting system as BJJ.

i've rolled against some judo BB, some are ok, some are good and some are excellent...

What system do you train for use on the ground?[/QUOTE]

Combat Sambo,Sanshou,Wing Chun,Shuai Jiao...

HellsAngel

Pontificatus wrote: »

Progressive Martial Arts ala Dan Inosanto which includes elements of Filipino ma's, JKD, BJJ etc



You are correct that BJJ isnt the be all and end all of groundfighting in this country but it is perhaps the one available to the highest level at the moment. What level of Sambo or anything else is available here?

Good point.

I'm trying to be careful not to insult any Judo guys here, but i'm not sure i would consider Judo as much a ground fighting system as BJJ.

What system do you train for use on the ground?

Judo is not as good on the floor as BJJ, but BJJ is not as good at getting you there !!! I read somewhere that

Judo is 80% standing 20% ground,

BJJ 80% ground, 20% standing

Against Mr Average - or for that matter Mr Karate, Mr Boxer, Mr TKDer etc - Judo man wins easily on the floor.

Pontificatus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

there are some good Sambo guys here,, but not many...

i've rolled against some judo BB, some are ok, some are good and some are excellent...
Combat Sambo,Sanshou,Wing Chun,Shuai Jiao...

Of the above does only sambo include submissions? I remember you saying that you wrestle too so you would have a decent grappling backround when you include all of the above.

Have you rolled against any BJJ guys? How did you get on?

Clive

WTF? BJJ for self defence? You could learn all the BJJ you'd need for self defence in a weekend.

HellsAngel

Clive wrote: »

WTF? BJJ for self defence? You could learn all the BJJ you'd need for self defence in a weekend.

Pulling and holding a guy in guard ? Buying a BJJ Master in a Weekend course on the interweb ?

EnjoyChoke

Clive wrote: »

WTF? BJJ for self defence? You could learn all the BJJ you'd need for self defence in a weekend.

Nah it's usually open mat Saturdays & Sundays so you'd be better off with a Monday/Tuesday session.

OLDMAN1

Pontificatus wrote: »

Of the above does only sambo include submissions? I remember you saying that you wrestle too so you would have a decent grappling backround when you include all of the above.

Have you rolled against any BJJ guys? How did you get on?

there are submission in wing chun and shuai jiao, just not on the ground.

i have rolled against some bjj guys,not many(3) but like all martial arts one was ok , one was good and one was excellent, but i would also like to say that some judo BB are excellent on the ground as well...

arybvtcw0eolkf

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

Nah it's usually open mat Saturdays & Sundays so you'd be better off with a Monday/Tuesday session.

I have Judo both those nights (& thursday), and Judo with the Garda team on Wednesdays.. I'm really only free the weekends, thanks Clive - I'll have to checkout LukeyJudo's Friday BJJ class in Coolmine :cool:

SBG Ireland

here's my experience of clubs that would typically be described as a TMA adding BJJ to their training. i can think of about 10 'TMA' clubs around ireland that have brought me in to teach BJJ to supplement their 'stand-up' that followed this

before anybody starts getting upset...this is not my 'opinion', im not saying one is better than the other...just saying what ive seen happen..

they initially try BJJ to supplement their 'TMA' which are usually a 'striking art'. they find it a lot of fun/effective so they decide to try some 'clinch'. the training methods and results makes them question their 'striking art' so they try some boxing/thai....soon they're just a MMA club

...yes there's been plenty of times where they've just tried it and carried on with their TMA....but the above has happened with me a bunch of times...and to a number of posters on this board!

arybvtcw0eolkf

SBG Ireland wrote: »

they initially try BJJ to supplement their 'TMA' which are usually a 'striking art'. they find it a lot of fun/effective so they decide to try some 'clinch'. the training methods and results makes them question their 'striking art' so they try some boxing/thai....

That more or less reflects my path into Judo.

I came from a kickboxing background, was introduced to Judo by Gary Bergin. My first Randori was with Tony White (blind chap) - he destroyed me..

Questioned the usefulness of my kickboxing - a little.

Went to the ground for some newaza - He destroyed me again... Questioned my kickboxing again - A LOT!.

Next week I left kickboxing, and I've been hooked on Judo/grappling since.

One thing I've noticed recently, and its been remarked on a lot.. Is the amount of BJJ practitioners now coming to Judo and cross training between the two - which can only be a huge benefit to both styles.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

here's my experience of clubs that would typically be described as a TMA adding BJJ to their training. i can think of about 10 'TMA' clubs around ireland that have brought me in to teach BJJ to supplement their 'stand-up' that followed this

before anybody starts getting upset...this is not my 'opinion', im not saying one is better than the other...just saying what ive seen happen..

they initially try BJJ to supplement their 'TMA' which are usually a 'striking art'. they find it a lot of fun/effective so they decide to try some 'clinch'. the training methods and results makes them question their 'striking art' so they try some boxing/thai....soon they're just a MMA club

...yes there's been plenty of times where they've just tried it and carried on with their TMA....but the above has happened with me a bunch of times...and to a number of posters on this board!

In your opinion would you put that down to bad "TMA" or bad training in "TMA" honestly i wont take offence even if you are wrong

Opinicus

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

In your opinion would you put that down to bad "TMA" or bad training in "TMA" honestly i wont take offence even if you are wrong

Maybe some of them just realise that the TMA they are doing is not actually what they want to do? Maybe they just prefer grappling to striking. (or a mixture instead of one or the other)

And by definition when you incorporate any grappling (Judo/BJJ/wrestling) with any striking (boxing/TKD/Kickboxing etc) isn't it then a mixed martial art.

MMA =/= Cage fighting

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

i wont take offence even if you are wrong

lol...and you would have to ask them, even if they are wrong

da-bres

Opinicus wrote: »

Maybe some of them just realise that the TMA they are doing is not actually what they want to do? Maybe they just prefer grappling to striking. (or a mixture instead of one or the other)

And by definition when you incorporate any grappling (Judo/BJJ/wrestling) with any striking (boxing/TKD/Kickboxing etc) isn't it then a mixed martial art.

MMA =/= Cage fighting

True but only by definition, and the level of effectiveness is pretty much nonexistent in comparison to a established MMA club.

Barry.Oglesby

SBG Ireland wrote: »

...yes there's been plenty of times where they've just tried it and carried on with their TMA....but the above has happened with me a bunch of times...and to a number of posters on this board!

I call bullshít. I bet that never happened.

SBG Ireland

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I call bullshít. I bet that never happened.

Dave Joyce

To the OP, you are suggesting that in an MMA contest, if you don't have adequate groundwork (BJJ/Wrestling/Judo) you could lose the said contest and yes quite rightly.

However, in a "street" situation, the amount of GROUNDWORK (as opposed to takedown/clinch) you would need is VERY limited.

Finally, have you ever noticed that COMPLETE systems eg Krabi Krabong, most FMA, a lot of Kung Fu systems and originally JJ that have originated FROM the battlefield have VERY LITTLE groundwork!!

SBG Ireland

actually to add to the progression i said i've witnessed a bunch of times i've also noticed that they tend to become less and less interested in 'street' self defence training. seem to be more interested in just eating right, working out and sport. again not commenting on it, just saying what ive seen.

any guys out there gone through that? (i know which ones haha )

The Shane

Clive wrote: »

WTF? BJJ for self defence? You could learn all the BJJ you'd need for self defence in a weekend.

Every time I'm in a self defence situation I go for collar chokes. Nobody on the street expects that.

Once I even got a gogoplata.

Shane, The

EnjoyChoke

Dave Joyce wrote: »

However, in a "street" situation, the amount of GROUNDWORK (as opposed to takedown/clinch) you would need is VERY limited.

It's a bit of a waste of time training any combat sport with the goal of an unlikely altercation with a drunken yob in mind. Bit like preparing yourself in the arts of hand to hand combat for a possible zombie apocalypse.
Train and compete for sport and in the event of a street situation or zombie invasion you'll be ready.

_oveless

So the jist of the thread is, why not add grappling to "traditional" striking arts, so is the reverse not true also? Shouldn't striking be incorporated in grappling arts?

pablohoney87

Why exactly would they incorperate BJJ into it? Most martial arts should be looked on as a sport. Each one has its rules as does BJJ. Why change them?

arybvtcw0eolkf

pablohoney87 wrote: »

Why exactly would they incorperate BJJ into it? Most martial arts should be looked on as a sport. Each one has its rules as does BJJ. Why change them?

I'm not sure the OP see's Martial Arts in the same light as you & I.

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

why would want to introduce bjj into those arts?

HellsAngel wrote: »

Ground fighting is essential to know if you want to be realistic about self defence in my humble opinion ( and throughly enjoyable once you give a few classes a go ) etc. Not trying to be sarcastic, but anyone who has been in a few school yard digging matches or brawles in later life should know that their is a high likelyhood of it going to the floor.

I think its 'game, set & match' here;

EnjoyChoke wrote: »

It's a bit of a waste of time training any combat sport with the goal of an unlikely altercation with a drunken yob in mind. Bit like preparing yourself in the arts of hand to hand combat for a possible zombie apocalypse.
Train and compete for sport and in the event of a street situation or zombie invasion you'll be ready.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

actually to add to the progression i said i've witnessed a bunch of times i've also noticed that they tend to become less and less interested in 'street' self defence training. seem to be more interested in just eating right, working out and sport. again not commenting on it, just saying what ive seen.

any guys out there gone through that? (i know which ones haha )

in post 25 you state that TMA clubs that you trained bjj with soon just became mma clubs but in post 35 you talk about individuals , which is it? if it individuals, people are always moving from style to style and club to club, if its TMA clubs, could you name them or at least say what style they did before they met you, i would be very intrested!

Tim_Murphy

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

in post 25 you state that TMA clubs that you trained bjj with soon just became mma clubs but in post 35 you talk about individuals , which is it? if it individuals, people are always moving from style to style and club to club, if its TMA clubs, could you name them or at least say what style they did before they met you, i would be very intrested!

I ran a Kickboxing/TKD club which eventually turned into a MMA club. I brought John down a few times to do seminars but if memory serves I'd already been booted out of my TKD association at that stage anyway.
Around Limerick at the same time (5-6 years ago) some of the AIMAA TKD boyos started training BJJ too and the Combat Sports Centre (BJJ & MMA club) grew out of that.

Tim_Murphy

Also, Point Blank in Galway started out as a few TKD lads grappling in NUIG.

OLDMAN1

Tim_Murphy wrote: »

I ran a Kickboxing/TKD club which eventually turned into a MMA club. I brought John down a few times to do seminars but if memory serves I'd already been booted out of my TKD association at that stage anyway.
Around Limerick at the same time (5-6 years ago) some of the AIMAA TKD boyos started training BJJ too and the Combat Sports Centre (BJJ & MMA club) grew out of that.

any other styles apart from TKD, i would honestly be intrested in seeing what styles converted (a complete change over)..

Barry.Oglesby

Hey there Oldman,

I was a traditional martial artist running a Taekwondo club up unti, about 6/7 years ago when we began to slowly but surely become an MMA gym.

This, is my story.

My taekwondo organisation were quite progressive, at least to a point. Grappling was incorporated and at the very least, there was some recognition that the ground was a foreign country to us. So there was some training, albeit very basic and with very little understanding of the fundamentals. Instead the training concentrated on techniques as opposed to how to get positions etc. The difficulty for me was that everything was done "in-house", which meant that all the training was done by TKD guys with very limited experience in grappling. So I decided to strike out for myself into the world of BJJ and did some afternoon classes in SBG and within a month or 2 so I was able to tap all of my training partners quite easily. That, more than anything, made me think that if there was more to this grappling lark, then there was sure to be more to the rest of this fighting business. So I picked a fight in the internet with John (SBGIreland) one day and he and I sparred one morning which was my first real MMA spar, even though I had fought no rules with some of my training partners before. I got bashed of course and that really cemented in my head the futility of trying to incorporate other types of training into an environment that just wasn't suitable.

That was all she wrote then. Pretty soon we were competing in the MMA League and now I'm happy to say we're an MMA gym that can hold it's head up high.

I just think it's a waste if time trying to graft something onto another art. Just train and enjoy.

SBG Ireland

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

in post 25 you state that TMA clubs that you trained bjj with soon just became mma clubs but in post 35 you talk about individuals , which is it?

lol steady on there oldman

of course its an 'individual' - that individual being the head of the club. a 'club' doesnt have a conscious. its in the hands of the 'group leader' to decide its course.

...isnt it strange the language used....you said you wouldnt be 'insulted' if i said something negative about 'tma'....why would you? surely any idea can be discussed without emotions? if we had different political ideologies we could discuss our differing points of views rationally and logically...but with martial arts and religion people 'get offended' or 'insulted' as though you said something about them personally. interesting stuff

SBG Ireland

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Just train and enjoy.

this really sums my mentality up. i dont care about the 'streetz' or 'effectiveness' (except of course in sport competition!) - whether someone is training to win the next kata championships or ufc title really doesnt bother me....just do what makes you happy

Damo W

As a TMA’er, here is my two cents…

I think that BJJ has opened the door for TMA’ers to look outside of what they are doing but more importantly to look within.

To examine what they are doing and why (purpose).

Outcomes will always determine the means and in the mainstream ‘traditional’ karate world (that’s modern traditional) competition is a strong element, but the rule bound competition eliminated ground work (on the most part).

Thus no ground work is done. This has lead a few to look within their art to see what exactly they are studying and how it has become what is today, in the most part what is found is a completely different animal.

This has provoked some to reintroduce older style training methods/techniques, which do include throws/locks and possibly some groundwork (shime waza, kansetsu waza etc etc).

[It’s not important to ask was there grappling in Karate, but should there be grappling in Karate]

(Even the modern father of karate [as many consider him to be] Gichin Funakoshi, had included locks and throws in his publications, see here for list and further information, http://www.theshotokanway.com/throwsandlocks.html )

With the high quality of BJJ’ers/Judo-ka/Kickboxers/Boxers available in Ireland this has accommodated the expansion of their (karate-ka) knowledge base while still maintaining training in a ‘traditional landscape’ (white suit/Japanese terminology/kata etc).

It’s not for everyone but IMHO great benefits have been received.

OLDMAN1

SBG Ireland wrote: »

lol steady on there oldman

of course its an 'individual' - that individual being the head of the club. a 'club' doesnt have a conscious. its in the hands of the 'group leader' to decide its course.

...isnt it strange the language used....you said you wouldnt be 'insulted' if i said something negative about 'tma'....why would you? surely any idea can be discussed without emotions? if we had different political ideologies we could discuss our differing points of views rationally and logically...but with martial arts and religion people 'get offended' or 'insulted' as though you said something about them personally. interesting stuff

honestly John im not insulted in the slightest, i was honestly just asking the question and no emotions were involved, i really dont care what other people do, if it makes them happy, but from a personal point, i always wondor WHY people do certain things,one question, the fact that the 3 clubs mentioned were TKD would that not lead you to think that the problem was with TKD and not all TMA?

Thanks Barry for the post.

Thats a excelent post there Damo w, i would agree with everything you said..

cowzerp

In fairness, most Krav maga lads i know also are from TKD backgrounds also so maybe it is TKD that has the problem,

what people need to realise is that most Martial artists dont do there chosen art because its the best for MMA, but because they enjoy it and obviously get something out of it

in saying that im pretty sure many did get into there arts thinking they where the best and wont move on due to not wanting to leave many years training behind and accepting they chose the wrong art in the 1st place for there goal of been in the most well rounded art/system.

EnjoyChoke

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

the fact that the 3 clubs mentioned were TKD would that not lead you to think that the problem was with TKD and not all TMA?

There was a mass exodus from my old club, Jap JuJutsu, to BJJ/MMA around the same time. Not a club changeover but as good as. Just sayin.

Doug Cartel

I think a reason there are a lot of former TKD guys is because there are just a lot more people doing TKD.