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Help with gaming build :)

  • 07-09-2010 3:53pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭


    Not sure if this should have gone in the budget gaming machine thread or if that's just for showing off. However it did fill me with confidence.

    I'm looking to build a decent gaming machine for around €500-600.

    By "decent" I mean, can play TF2 and other source games as Valve are complete tossers who make it worse with every update and never bother improving performance. My current laptop could handle Arkham Asylum fairly decently, but TF2 runs like ass. So I'd be looking for a configuration that will work more than any specific element of horsepower.

    Though I'll probably be using this more for my multimedia course; rendering video/3d models etc.

    I've never put together a computer by myself before and I'm a little scared to even though I'm a relatively advanced user.

    Ideally I'd like -

    Small form factor, preferably with a good built in PSU so I don't have to dick around with that.
    Wireless built in to motherboard
    6-8 gigs ram
    500+ gig HD
    2.4ghz+ CPU
    GPU that can handle games on good settings for another year or so - I'd rather get a decent graphics card now and continually upgrade than waste money on an SLI rig that ends up outdated feature wise when new tech comes out. I have a 9500MGS in my current laptop, I'd want something considerably better than that for this build to be worth it.

    My current laptop's specs are actually quite good on paper, but I think laptops are just awkward to get working for gaming.

    Small form factor is important as the reason I own a laptop is that I move around often(college etc.), my machine I had in college was ridiculously large and heavy. I will probably have to build this at my parents in clare and haul it down to Cork. Since I don't a top of the line rig I'm hoping I can get away with a small case. I'm going to undervolt the CPU too to help cool it.

    I need to make sure I have everything though as I'm afraid it'll burn out first time I turn it on. I'm also a bit sceptical that this will end up a waste due to how abysmal the PC gaming market is at the moment, but I think I'm going to need it for college anyway.

    Where should I order from?


«1

Comments

  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Hmm... do you need a monitor or OS for this? If the answer is "both" you're gonna be in a world of hurt with that budget :o And the PSUs that come with cheap cases are dodgy and tend to explode :eek: So you'll actually have far less fuss with an aftermarket model :p

    Also, why on earth would you need 6-8GB RAM?! :confused:

    Finally, integrated wi-fi on an mITX board increases cost and can cause other issues. Integrated wi-fi on an mATX mobo is a rare luxury feature, but you usually have the spare PCI/e slots to throw something in if you want to keep it internal.

    In any case... here's a base mATX build, coming to €525 shipped:

    HWVS070910.png

    You can use the remaining €75 whatever way you want, but trying to upgrade the GPU to a GTX460 will eat up much more than the "obvious" €35 as you'd need to upgrade the PSU too :( Given the dearth of cheap yet decent 500-550W units you'll be paying an extra €15-20 for a Superflower 700W or Antec EA650D :o That would leave you ~€20 for fans or whatever - not enough to upgrade to a quadcore CPU within budget :o

    The base mITX build is smaller... but comes to €595 with shipping:

    HWVS070910a.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Hmm... do you need a monitor or OS for this?
    .

    Nope. Getting a couple of dead pixels on this one so I'll need to replace it eventually but not a big deal right now. I have a spare Windows 7 lying around too, though I think that's only a 32 bit version... that sucks. I can probably get a 64 bit cheap enough.
    Also, why on earth would you need 6-8GB RAM?!

    Try rendering stuff in After Effects :(

    Also I need everything to be better than my current laptop.

    Not enough uses Quad Core right now for it to be essential either(Source games barely use dual core). But have a motherboard that can take it in future would be fairly essential.

    Also; don't I need special gel to attach the cooler to the CPU? Or does that come with it?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Stock coolers come with a pad of the stuff pre-applied and ready to go. If you take them off again then on reinstallation you'd need fresh paste though :o

    4GB of reasonably fast DDR3 should be most for most things, if you really need 8GB you'd need to factor in another €70 for most mATX mobos (4 DIMMs) and another ~€85 for the rest and any mITX boards (only 2 DIMMs, so you'd need double-density sticks)... and don't forget to add another €90+ on top of that for the new 64bit OS you'd need to use it all! :eek:

    Bear in mind the mATX system is more upgradeable and even has a handle but the mITX system is a lot lighter. Both mobos support quads, although you'd be very tight for power putting even a i5-760 on the mITX system as you're stuck with the 300W PSU :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Can I go with 4 gigs to start off with and upgrade it later with these motherboards? The last thing I want is a motherboard I can't add more RAM to. If I'm buying another motherboard later on that'd be so much hassle. I don't intend to throw a load of gear in this, mostly only RAM and swapping out the graphics card and maybe CPU every few years.

    Size is probably more of an issue than weight.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    There's no issue with size or weight when you have an mITX rig - but you'd have to run your memory single-channel until you could buy a second 4GB module and there'd be minimal upgradeability in the long-term.

    With an mATX rig you could easily upgrade components as you go along and there's better cooling on offer, yet while much smaller and lighter than even a midi-tower system they'll still be reasonably bulky and heavy :o

    With an mATX rig similar to the above sample you do have €75 left over to fix one problem right away. You could spend €40 to upgrade the case to a Sugo SG03 and chop off a bit of size and weight. You could blow it all on starting off with a full 8GB of RAM, but then you'd have to replace the CPU later. Similarly you could blow it on a high-cache, quad-core Phenom and then not have enough RAM to utilize it properly. I don't think CUDA helps After Effects but gaming-wise I don't see you needing to replace a GTX460 for a long time - but when you figure in replacing the PSU that's €55 gone.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Both those recommendations only have 32bit processors then?

    Is there anyway to go 64 and 6-8 gigs while remaining around the 600 mark? I'd be happy enough with 6 gigs, the extra 2 would be wonderful for after effects. The thing is, when you do a RAM preview in After effects, that eats up RAM. Let's say you have 4 gigs, so you have about 3 gigs max free between Windows and other things After Effects has loaded. I might get about 45 seconds out of HD video out of that depending on the quality. With 6 gigs, I'd have another 2 free so over a minute. Back when I was doing my first project, that would have rendered the whole thing for me.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EM3LwDz_Sxo

    Would the extra €75 get me a 64 bit processor and 2 gigs ram?

    If I have to go a little over budget, it's not a big deal. 650 is probably my absolute limit though. I just can't justify more than that given how few games there are I actually want to play.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    You've got it wrong - virtually any modern CPU is inherently 64-bit. The catch is that without a 64-bit OS running on the system your usable RAM still tops out at 2.75GB (with a 1GB GPU) until you install a 64-bit version of Windows, which is a good €90 worth :o


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    I'm just confused with what you said here -
    4GB of reasonably fast DDR3 should be most for most things, if you really need 8GB you'd need to factor in another €70 for most mATX mobos (4 DIMMs) and another ~€85 for the rest and any mITX boards (only 2 DIMMs, so you'd need double-density sticks)... and don't forget to add another €90+ on top of that for the new 64bit OS you'd need to use it all!

    Surely if I have a 64bit OS there's no problem then?

    Are you saying memory normally comes in 2GB sets, and the slots will all be full when I get the machine, so I need to get more expensive Double Density RAM that costs twice as much?

    Let's say I already have a 64bit OS or have to buy one anyway how much does the RAM cost for 6 Gigs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭BeciMester


    You'll need a 64bit OS even if you want to use 4GB fully. 32bit can handle 4GB all together, meaning system RAM, video RAM, everything.

    Memory is normally 2GB a stick, a set would be 2x2GB for roughly €70-80. So if you go mATX (4 memory slots) and want 8GB, 2 of those 2x2GB sets is what you need. With mITX which has 2 memory slots, if you want 8GB you'll need two 4GB sticks which is more expensive than 4 of the 2GB sticks. Oh and you want 4GB or 8GB, not 6: you need an even number of identical RAM sticks for dual channel to work.

    Hope it's not too confusing. :)


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    If you already had a 64bit OS then RAM would cost ~€150 for 8GB give or take. That's more expensive than anything else going into the machine! :eek:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    RAM is really expensive right now :/

    Why is that out of interest? Hasn't really come down in the last few years at all.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Sandvich wrote: »
    RAM is really expensive right now :/

    Why is that out of interest? Hasn't really come down in the last few years at all.

    It's not really expensive as such but definitely more expensive than it was. Probably just demand out-stripping supply. The big oems like dell and HP are starting to use ddr3 in a lot of their systems so it's harder for you and me to get and therefore more expensive.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Sandvich wrote: »
    RAM is really expensive right now :/

    Why is that out of interest? Hasn't really come down in the last few years at all.

    While true you could hardly call it cheap, I would say DDR3 is probably less expensive at the moment than at any time in the past year. It is not that long since prices were starting at probably 110 euros and upwards for 4GB up as opposed to about 70 euro and upwards now.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 4,282 Mod ✭✭✭✭deconduo


    Just so you know, you can download the windows 7 64-bit disk and burn it. The activiation key works for both systems 32 and 64 so you're sorted there.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Only if the version the OP has is a full retail version. If its OEM then the key is locked to which version he has, which is 32-bit :o


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,164 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Solitaire wrote: »
    Only if the version the OP has is a full retail version. If its OEM then the key is locked to which version he has, which is 32-bit :o

    Are you 100% sure on that. I remember talking to someone before who had an oem license for 32 bit and he activated the 64bit using the same key with no issue whatsoever. I could be mistaken though.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Maybe...


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 4,282 Mod ✭✭✭✭deconduo


    Nope, even OEM and student versions can be used to install either 32/64 bit versions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Unregistered.


    EDIT: *facepalm*




    (hope nobody saw that)


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    In terms of activation by microsoft the product key is good for either the 32/64 bit versions, that doesn't nescessarly mean it is not against the EULA.

    I was under the impression that it was pretty much up to the individual OEM whether or not they will provide and/or support both 32 and 64 bit versions and provide alternative media. (ie your OEM may limit you to 32 bit version, but Microsoft does not seem to imposing any limit on the OEM license beyond prohibiting both 32 and 64 bit installations at the same time. )

    The only thing for certain is that nobody seems to know for certain. :pac:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    If this is true, then I nearly may as well go for the 8 gigs. It'll round the build out to around 600. I probably won't need to upgrade the RAM for a while then.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    EDIT: (hope nobody saw that)

    Maybe .... what is your previously impeccable technical reputation worth to you, good sir :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Would I be best off waiting a month or two to see if RAM prices come down?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    gamingrig.gif

    How's this? Comes to 620 with shipping. Should I wait a month and see if RAM prices come down? Maybe I could get away with a slightly cheaper graphics card? I don't know how many "new" games I'm realistically going to be playing, but I may need the horsepower for rendering.

    There's no CPU cooler in there though. Do I not need one? Is the case/mobo enough? I won't be doing any overclocking, though if I decide to later can I strap on a cooler?

    Is there anything else I'm missing? I have a monitor, mouse, keyboard, USB soundcard, speakers...


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    What resolution is your monitor? You can drop down to a HD5750 if its not Full HD...

    And it'd be best to get a quad-core CPU if you want to take full advantage of your 8GB RAM during renders ;)

    As for CPU cooler, if you're not OCing its not a huge deal. AMD stock coolers are a darn sight better than Intel ones anyway. You could probably survive on an AMD stock cooler even with a mildly OC'd quad :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Solitaire wrote: »
    What resolution is your monitor? You can drop down to a HD5750 if its not Full HD...

    And it'd be best to get a quad-core CPU if you want to take full advantage of your 8GB RAM during renders ;)

    As for CPU cooler, if you're not OCing its not a huge deal. AMD stock coolers are a darn sight better than Intel ones anyway. You could probably survive on an AMD stock cooler even with a mildly OC'd quad :)

    No, it's not full HD. Its an awkward resolution of 1440x900.

    I use a VGA cable at the moment though with no major issues. This monitor is kind of half monitor half tele, it has HDMI but I don't know if it has DVI.

    How much more is a quadcore? I don't know if I can justify the cost right now. Will I be able to upgrade to a quadcore later on though?

    Keep in mind everything I'm using should ideally be able to take advantage of the GPU for rendering as well. The main issue is literally how much I can fit in the RAM at once, not so much rendering times, though that'd be great too, it'll only play so many seconds of a render, and then have to load it again. Even if it loads quicker, it still breaks the flow. Basically the amount of video I can "look at" at once, goes with up with the RAM.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    From what I've heard AE mostly relies on CPU for renders because as it does the whole thing in RAM any graphics card is woefully short on memory - 1GB per entire GPU as opposed to the 1.7GB+ RAM per core you'll see on a modern 8GB home workstation.

    Personally if I was going to focus heavily on AE rather than gaming I'd save a little money on the GPU to get maximum rendering throughput with the CPU and RAM. Besides, even a 512MB HD5750 would eat almost any game alive at 1440*900 - hell, if you see a very cheap HD4770 going second-hand, grab it instead! ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    I'll also be doing 3dsmax next year as well though - which will be pretty graphics intensive.

    Can't find the HD4770 on hardwareversand.de either.

    If I can find games actually worth playing that benefit from good graphics(i.e. not Indie games for the most part) then I may as well pay a little extra for the graphics card. Otherwise, a cheaper one will be likely be fine.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    HD4770 would be a "stalk Adverts and pray" jobbie at this point :p Pretty close to the HD5750 and more than capable at 1440*900 but if you see one much cheaper than the HD5750's €100+ pricetag then make it a target of opportunity ;):D

    And unless something's changed recently 3DSMax also uses CPU for rendering work :o Of course, viewport performance can be GPU-dependent but AFAIK only FirePro and Quadro drivers enable GPU acceleration for that either :o


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    I guess I could get away with a lesser graphics card then. But there's too many to choose from.... no idea what I'm looking at any more. Feel old and out of the loop.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    HD4850/4770/5750 are great for sub-1080p gaming; the former is quite power-hungry but the others only sip at power so are very apt for this build. The GTX260 and non-512MB versions of the HD4870/5770 are good for 1080p gaming but only the HD5770 is frugal enough to run alongside a 95W CPU on a sub-500W PSU. The GTX465/HD5830/4890/GTX460 are good for very intense 1080p gaming or light multi-monitor gaming but none are very frugal and all are out of your price range.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    How long will this take to be delivered? If it comes in under a week I may order it, otherwise I'll have to wait until the next time I'm back at my parents which could take a while.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Unfortunately the particular graphics card you linked me too seems to be sold out and could take more than a week to come back in... is there an alternative?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    I wouldn't want you spending so much on a HD5770 1GB anyway if you're only gaming at 1440*900 :o As I said before look for HD5750s around €100 like this ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Would a 1GB card be a safer bet though? There's a bunch of different 5750s though!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,532 ✭✭✭Unregistered.


    Sandvich wrote: »
    Would a 1GB card be a safer bet though? There's a bunch of different 5750s though!
    Only if you can get one fairly cheap, say €5-10 MAX more than the 512, because at the above resolution 1GB does not normally have much of an impact


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    12 euros is a no go then?

    http://www4.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=34493&agid=1004

    I imagine when things get more and more detailed textures, it will come in handy. Though they'll probably have games on mostly blu-ray by then... have to get a blu-ray drive at some point. My laptop has one though. But given I can just hook that up to the tele I'm not that bothered about having one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    There's also other 5770s

    http://www4.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=30808&agid=1004

    They scored a bit over 100 points higher in the test, though that's like between 1,400 and 1,500 so maybe it's not worth the extra 20 quid or so. Plus I can replace it with another €100 graphics card a few years down the road that'll be similar fairly high end.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    So which should I get :( Just a little more help please and I can order it.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    If you honestly think you'll be upgrading to a 1080p screen sometime soon and you have the extra ~€30 outside your budget then get the HD5770 1GB.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Is there really that much difference between 900p and 1080p?

    I'll likely be getting a new monitor at some stage alright.

    I'll have a think about it.

    Which of the 5770s should I get though? There's a few different ones. There are 2 Club 3D ones that look identical but cost diffeerent :/


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    Not really. I'd almost recommend the former to give your GPU a break, but the higher resolution is much more established and has much wider compatibility with HDTV, BluRay, console ports etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    http://www.tomshardware.com/charts/2010-gaming-graphics-charts-high-quality/3DMark06-v1.1.0,2392.html

    Looking at this it seems the HIS and Powercolor versions of cards rank much lower... I thought they'd be more or less the same. Or am I reading it wrong?

    EDIT: Ah yeah I am. I'm gonna take a look at other cards that rank similarly. The 5750 I was looking at is out of stock(1 Gig version, was down to less than a tenner more) so I may have to go for a 5770... the performacne improvement is just under 10% though so not exactly epic. I wish there were benchmark scores for the 5750 512mb versus 1gig.

    Keep in mind I do like to play with lots of anti-aliasing, especially for games like Team Fortress 2 that are meant to look "smooth". Doesn't that really eat ram?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    I wouldn't trust 3DMark far less Toms :P

    A 1GB HD5750 is of most use to someone who doesn't mind tweaking up its GPU and memory speeds up a bit to let it take more advantage of the doubled framebuffer, as its only 900p and higher that see any kind of advantage from it. 1080p can get a good few additonal FPS from a 1GB HD5750 compared to the regular version, so long as you OC it a bit ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    What's the best benchmark then do you think?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    The games you want to play ;)

    Normally I'd give 3DMark a cautious thumbs-up as a rough guide but it tends to favour certain GPUs in a way you'd never see in real life; a 9800GTX isn't going to thrash a HD4850 and draw almost level with a HD5770 in real life. The superiority of the GTX260 over said is also exaggerated.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Well, would the 5770 fit in the case I'm going with? I heard it might be a little too long for some.

    As for games I'll be playing

    http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/charts/2010-gaming-graphics-charts-high-quality/Left4Dead-2,2380.html

    An extra 10 fps could be significant. In a lot of the tests the split was more like 35 - 42 or so, which would actually be noticable.

    The advantage to the 5750 is that it uses up slightly less power too. But for the price of a couple of beers, an exxtra 5-10fps on average might be nice.

    Would this 5770 be fine?

    http://www3.hardwareversand.de/articledetail.jsp?aid=30225&agid=1004

    It's a couple of euros cheaper than the HIS I was going with. Should be fine? How is Club 3D?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 18,381 Mod ✭✭✭✭Solitaire


    The card is only 8.5" long - and that's the big, bulky reference version! :D Bear in mind that a full mATX mobo is 9.6" long... and if that were not enough the Vulcan was designed for big cards, you could fit a HD5870 in there! ;)

    No big difference in model either. The Club3D is the sturdy, reliable one, using the reference cooler and PCB straight from AMD. I've never had grief from that brand either :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    I'll go with that then providing it doesn't also go out of stock. Thank you for all your help.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    Bizarrely, the HIS one came back in, and at a cheaper price.

    Here's what I ordered.

    4GB Corsair Valueselect DDR3-1333 CL9 x2

    AMD Athlon II X3 440 "Boxed" 95W, Sockel AM3

    Corsair CX400W 400 Watt

    HIS HD 5770 FAN GDDR5 1024MB Native HDMI Display Port D-DVI

    LG GH22NS40/NS30 bare schwarz SATA II

    MSI 760GM-E51, Sockel AM3, mATX, PCIe

    NZXT Vulcan Micro-ATX LAN Gaming Case - black

    NSamsung SpinPoint F3 1000GB, SATA II (HD103SJ)


    TP-Link TL-WN781N, 150Mbps, PCIe x1


    Subtotal: 585,37 €
    Shipping costs by DHL-Normalversand + 30,00 €


    Total: 615,37 €


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