TH Options

liam12989

Its good to see the scrums of the provinces stand up to good scrums over weekend. But who should we be looking for as T/H for world cup
Hagan Did well for connacht and is improving
Buckley Also did well and seems to be improving.
Then there is Ross Andress Fitzpatrick and guys across the water like Ruaidhri Murphy (Exeter) and Callum Black (Worcester).

thomond2006

Forget about Fitzpatrick. He's behind BJ Botha and Tom Court would likely move to TH if Botha got injured with Byran Young slotting in at loosehead.
Fitzpatrick won't get enough games to make a claim.

Never seen Andress play so can't comment on him. He's been praised a lot on this forum. I think he was in an extended squad a few years ago when he was playing Division 1 with Exeter. He hasn't got a look in in the Kidney era and I don't see that changing unless we are short through injury.

Mike Ross has got his chance now with CJ gone and Wright injured. He seemed to do well when he got opportunities last year so let's hope he shows a sustained run of form.

Hagan is doing well for Connacht. However like Keatley, I think the fact he plays for Connacht will go against him. Sad but true. Wilkinson has been in Ireland squads ahead of Hagan so I'd say he would ahead of him in the pecking order.

Buckley is doing really well and should be Munster's first choice TH this season. A certainty to go the World Cup because Kidney played him when he wasn't in form at all (the A games before the Six Nations) so he clearly rates him.

If 23 man matchday squads are used at the World Cup, then I guess at least 6 props would be picked. So that would be: Healy, Court, Wilkinson; Hayes, Buckley, Ross.

thebaz

it would be nice to see Hayes finish his career on a high at the WC - fingers crossed - it will be a swansong for so many of the golden generation

Webbs

thebaz wrote: »

it would be nice to see Hayes finish his career on a high at the WC - fingers crossed - it will be a swansong for so many of the golden generation

I'm not even Irish so dont know if I should say this, but for gods sake dont send Hayes anywhere near an Irish team from now on. Let him go out to pasture with his dignity and reputation still intact. Another year of international rugby will ruin all that, as he will be shown up badly.

outwest

if hagen has a good 2 months he should be in the irish squad, id rate him higher than ross in terms of potential


i would hate hayes to go to wc if he has a season like last.

buck65

Buckley is our only option, not because I'm from Munster but he can carry a ball, break the gain line , lift, counter ruck. If only he scrummaged better and showed more aggression and desire he would be the complete package.

bamboozle

thebaz wrote: »

it would be nice to see Hayes finish his career on a high at the WC - fingers crossed - it will be a swansong for so many of the golden generation

Hayes proved last season he is well and truely past it at international level.
We need to think beyond him. But i can still see Kidney starting him in 2 of the Autumn internationals.

wonton

anyone know why stewart maguire wasnt given a contract with leinster?


he is 21 this season, so its not unrealistic to think he could at least be an option from the bench.

he srcummaged pretty dam well in the under 20s world cup matches i seen.

Crash

Well, he's in the Leinster academy, so he's still an option. Got another year at least in the Academy program, and not so amazing that you'd want him ahead of another option on a HC bench quite now (though a few more knocks in the front row and who knows??)

thebaz

bamboozle wrote: »

Hayes proved last season he is well and truely past it at international level.
We need to think beyond him. But i can still see Kidney starting him in 2 of the Autumn internationals.

this season is about winning things, not building for future - if we have a better No. 3 great, still not convinced on Buckleys scrummaging

TheTMO

wonton wrote: »

anyone know why stewart maguire wasnt given a contract with leinster?


he is 21 this season, so its not unrealistic to think he could at least be an option from the bench.

he srcummaged pretty dam well in the under 20s world cup matches i seen.

Leinster gave the contract to McGrath instead who turns 21 soon as well. Maguire will get it next year, I assume Leinster only give out one contract per position for academy players.

danthefan

thebaz wrote: »

it would be nice to see Hayes finish his career on a high at the WC - fingers crossed - it will be a swansong for so many of the golden generation

No, just no. There's no room for sentimentality here, Hayes is finished.


And Maguire is on a development contract with Leinster, it's the next step up from the academy.

[Jackass]

At the moment, Buckley would be my first choice.

Ross could challenge him if he gets regular gametime for Leinster and performs well. Hagan is young, but has a big future. Serving at Connacht for another season or two will serve him well, but he's one for the following world cup. It's not going to be easy to have someone ready in time for the world cup, but best option at present is buckley..

bamboozle

thebaz wrote: »

this season is about winning things, not building for future - if we have a better No. 3 great, still not convinced on Buckleys scrummaging

its not about winning things its about getting the squad ready for the world cup, hence all the front line players will be seen very sparingly at provincial level.
Off the top of my head i'd have Court, Andress, Wilkinson & Buckley ahead of Hayes.
Great servant to Irish rugby but he was a passenger last season.

danthefan

Ross was excellent yesterday, decimated their scrum and definitely got around the pitch. I have to say I really see no reason to pick Hayes for Ireland again now. Kidney should retire him from international rugby, as he's done with Quinlan. The sad thing is he would have started both tests during the summer unless he'd gotten injured, and gone into this season first choice.

profitius

Hayes is slowing down alright. I was hoping he'd have one more good season in him but its looking unlikely.

The scrums are going well so far this season. No serious tests yet but they're looking good.

stejkenny

danthefan wrote: »

Ross was excellent yesterday, decimated their scrum and definitely got around the pitch. I have to say I really see no reason to pick Hayes for Ireland again now. Kidney should retire him from international rugby, as he's done with Quinlan. The sad thing is he would have started both tests during the summer unless he'd gotten injured, and gone into this season first choice.

Ross and Buckley the first choice tight heads; Healy and Court are the first choice loose heads; Flannery Varley Cronin Fogarty are there for Hooker; thats two serious front rows that should be able to come up against the best of them;:D

JustinDee

danthefan wrote: »

Ross was excellent yesterday, decimated their scrum

To be perfectly honest, he was up against a third-choice novice who was really struggling.
Difficult to guage whether one guy was on top or the other guy a dropper.

outwest

i think hagen has a chnace of getting into the irish squad. he is the future tight head for ireland

outwest

2 games in and already my mind is made up,

hayes cannot go to the world cup. buckly will start, with ross and hagen the other tight heads

he was poor when he came on on friday, this may upset people but it time to cut him loose

TheTMO

outwest wrote: »

2 games in and already my mind is made up,

hayes cannot go to the world cup. buckly will start, with ross and hagen the other tight heads

he was poor when he came on on friday, this may upset people but it time to cut him loose

I reckon Ross is going to take his chance this season and nail down the tighthead position for Ireland. Best scrummager by a mile in Ireland and the other night was all over the park, if he can keep that up then Buckley will only offer more in ball carrying.

outwest

i think hagen is a better option then ross, good scrumager, better then buckley with ball in hand

TheTMO

outwest wrote: »

i think hagen is a better option then ross, good scrumager, better then buckley with ball in hand

Ross is a better scrummager than Hagan and Buckley is a better ball carrier. However Hagan is very young and has the potential to be better than both of them. This years world cup will be too soon for him however. With Hagan, Healy, McGrath and Maguire theres some excellent young props in this country, future looks brighter.

smurphy29

One thing's for sure - there appears to be a glimmer of light at the end of this tunnel. Think where we were before the summer tour - a dark place. Hayes past it, Leinster and Munster demolished by French packs in the HEC, Ross banished to third choice at Leinster and Buckley as frustrating as ever.

Now, well, there's hope. Ross was indeed up against a novice, but the man can undoubtedly scrummage. He also made a couple of decent carries and had a fine match. A good start to the season - let's hope it continues.

I didn't see Buckley but by all accounts he appears to be finally making a go of it. The man has talent coming out of his ears - those hands are to die for. And if he doesn't do the business this season - with the reward of a starting spot in a world cup if he's even halfway to average - he never will.

dromdrom

Don't forget Ryan and Andress in the premiership, could be on the radar in a year or two.

outwest

ryan will never be an international, same with andress

Amazotheamazing

outwest wrote: »

ryan will never be an international, same with andress

I wouldn't be so sure, if either move back to an Irish province they could get capped. Ryan seems to be doing ok, the last two looseheads he played were British and Irish Lions and he seems to caused both of the them trouble. Early days yet though.

PhatPiggins

outwest wrote: »

ryan will never be an international, same with andress

Seen much of them in the GP?

mickeyjoe12

How'd Tom Court get on at TH last night?

profitius

mickeyjoe12 wrote: »

How'd Tom Court get on at TH last night?

He had a solid game. His problem is he offers little in the loose. Healy has much more to offer if he improves in the scrums which I think he will.

The Connacht scrum dominated the Glasgow scum last night I heard. Another good night for Hagan.

liam12989

so after this weekend who should we be looking at? i didnt see any of the games but i see hagen had another good game? How was Ross and Court

profitius

liam12989 wrote: »

so after this weekend who should we be looking at? i didnt see any of the games but i see hagen had another good game? How was Ross and Court

Ross is playing well. Dominant in the scrums and I'm sure his match sharpness will also improve in time.

outwest

hagen should be ahead of ross imo, connacht scrum has been good this year, and ross doesnt offer the same ball carrying as hagen.

o and hayes should not be considered for ireland anymore edit

PhatPiggins

outwest wrote: »

hagen should be ahead of ross imo, connacht scrum has been good this year, and ross doesnt offer the same ball carrying as hagen.

o and hayes should not be considered for ireland anymore edit

Hagen is a child in proping terms. He won't be ready for international level for a minimum three years and he'll need to play at a higher level the ML in the meantime.

Diom

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Hagen is a child in proping terms. He won't be ready for international level for a minimum three years and he'll need to play at a higher level the ML in the meantime.

Healy? He is six months younger than Hagan, better in the loose but not as solid in the scrum. This molly coddling of our props is ridiculous. You don't see the SH sides doing it. The Connacht front row has been dominant in the last three games despite being young, with Cronin(24), Hagan(23), Loughney(23) and Wilko(26).

As for needing to play at a higher level than ML... what? So unless he moves away from Connacht he cannot prop for Ireland? Or would playing at Ireland A level be alright... can he play at A level without playing the HEC? Cronin seems to have dealt well enough with the scrum at international level despite playing "only" ML and ACC rugby.
Your argument is tired, old and lazy. It's simply a way for supporters of other provinces to discount the form of Connacht players who have worked their way into contention for an Irish jersey (not that I am saying that Hagan is worthy of one just yet). Players can only play what is in front of them, and if they are doing well there then they deserve to be given a chance at the next level up... in this case "A", and if they do well there up a level again.

PhatPiggins

And Healy, who played a dozen HC games before playing for Ireland, has gone backwards since he became an international. Its sad that any negative comments are always percevied as tribalism but you chuck Hagen into an international game and he could be obliterated.

Your Cronin comparison is largely irrelevant but he didn't cover himself in glory in the summer where as Varley who went down as fifth choice looked far more comfortable in the tight. Cronin is a better player but Varley's HC/GP exposure had him better prepared

I don't give a rats arse where the next TH's come from, but rushing a guy who was playing AIL 18 months ago is dangerous. "Good enough your old enough" is great but TH is the most technical position on the pitch and players should be eased into the position.

The Connacht chip on the shoulder, us against everyone else, take every criticism as anti Connacht arguement is tired, old and lazy

profitius

I think the best thing to do is give them a taste of international rugby and see how they do. Healy played far too many matches last season and was kind of thrown in there when the scrums were all over the place. I think the break will do him good. Also Irish scrummaging have really improved since they got new scrum coaches and that'll benefit all the players.

PhatPiggins

profitius wrote: »

I think the best thing to do is give them a taste of international rugby and see how they do. Healy played far too many matches last season and was kind of thrown in there when the scrums were all over the place. I think the break will do him good. Also Irish scrummaging have really improved since they got new scrum coaches and that'll benefit all the players.

Bring him into the extended squads by all means, expert coaching is exactly what he needs. I still wouldn't play him against any of Argie/SA/NZ, you could give him 20 minutes against Samoa but thats hardly much of a step up in standard.

What we really need is a scrum academy for all promising props in the country.

outwest

what we need is to give players a chance, look at the franks brothers, both are young but if they were irish they wouldnt get a look in because of there age,

what im saying is a player like hagen should be in a matchday squad instead of hayes.

healy suffered with second season syndrome too much was expected of him

PhatPiggins

outwest wrote: »

what we need is to give players a chance, look at the franks brothers, both are young but if they were irish they wouldnt get a look in because of there age,

what im saying is a player like hagen should be in a matchday squad instead of hayes.

healy suffered with second season syndrome too much was expected of him

Can Hagen play both sides of the scrum?

BTW I agree with dropping Hayes completely

Diom

PhatPiggins wrote: »

And Healy, who played a dozen HC games before playing for Ireland, has gone backwards since he became an international. Its sad that any negative comments are always percevied as tribalism but you chuck Hagen into an international game and he could be obliterated.

Your Cronin comparison is largely irrelevant but he didn't cover himself in glory in the summer where as Varley who went down as fifth choice looked far more comfortable in the tight. Cronin is a better player but Varley's HC/GP exposure had him better prepared

I don't give a rats arse where the next TH's come from, but rushing a guy who was playing AIL 18 months ago is dangerous. "Good enough your old enough" is great but TH is the most technical position on the pitch and players should be eased into the position.

The Connacht chip on the shoulder, us against everyone else, take every criticism as anti Connacht arguement is tired, old and lazy

I've no chip on my shoulder... your bit about not having him play because he hasn't played HEC is blatant and obvious. It's used so often it's nigh on unbelievable.
Please don't strawman the argument. You did NOT say that you would like to see Hagan eased in to the international rugby scene. If you had I would have agreed with you. You simply regurgitated one of the old faithful arguments about only considering players who have played in the HEC.... you know full well that that excludes the entire Connacht squad.
Personally I don't think that Hagan is ready for an international berth but I base that on my perception of the players ability, not on what competition he plays in. As for your perception of Cronin's performance I don't disagree that he was not superb, but I do disagree about the reason for it...Varley certainly did no better than him in the summer. I also disagree about Healy, who didn't go backwards...the guy was always only fair at scrummaging, and has improved slightly. He looked better in Leinster because the rest of the scrum was not constantly getting its ass handed to it.

thomond2006

Hayes got taken off at halftime on Saturday.

Has McGahan finally seen sense?

Hayes is on an international contract right? They're (Ireland) are probably desperate for him to play well so they can justify his wages.

theKramer

Hayes and Horan both looked really iffy on Saturday. They will do well to justify playing in the ML this year, not to mind the HEC or Ireland....

What a difference a few months makes. Just 3 months ago we were afraid that we'd be going to the WC with Hayes as 1st choice, whereas now we have both Buckley and Ross looking like they could be fighting for the Ireland jersey between them.

The HEC will tell us a lot about where Buckley and Ross are at, at the mo...

Podge_irl

Hagan is clearly not ready for international rugby, but he'd still be a better option than Hayes as at least he would learn something. For now though I would like to see Ross as our first choice tight head for the world cup. Arguments about his lack of mobility around the pitch are entirely negated by the fact that his opposition is Hayes, a man who can't catch a ball and who can't run to save his life.

I hate seeing what has become of Hayes, he should be remembered for the fantastic servant he was to Irish rugby, not for the player he has become because he was asked to play for too long.

outwest

ross hasnt done anything to deserve to be in the irish team, buckley is the first choice

Daragh86

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Can Hagen play both sides of the scrum?/QUOTE]

No, only tight.

Why even consider moving him to loose? He is technically the best tighthead in Ireland. He needs to work on power, which seems to have come in heaps this season, and being a bit smarter in the scrum.

As I said though, technically he is by far the best in Ireland.

Diom

Podge_irl wrote: »

Hagan is clearly not ready for international rugby, but he'd still be a better option than Hayes as at least he would learn something. For now though I would like to see Ross as our first choice tight head for the world cup. Arguments about his lack of mobility around the pitch are entirely negated by the fact that his opposition is Hayes, a man who can't catch a ball and who can't run to save his life.

I hate seeing what has become of Hayes, he should be remembered for the fantastic servant he was to Irish rugby, not for the player he has become because he was asked to play for too long.

Yes pity about Hayes still playing. He had such a perfect opportunity to retire after the Grand Slam.
Not sure about how highly I rate Ross yet though, but he should be given a chance to prove himself. All that Hagan needs is to be tested at a higher level... if he can be consistent at higher levels then I think we have Buckley's backup ready to go. A couple of A games, and maybe a run against Samoa would let us gauge his progress.

thehighground

Diom wrote: »

Yes pity about Hayes still playing. He had such a perfect opportunity to retire after the Grand Slam.
Not sure about how highly I rate Ross yet though, but he should be given a chance to prove himself. All that Hagan needs is to be tested at a higher level... if he can be consistent at higher levels then I think we have Buckley's backup ready to go. A couple of A games, and maybe a run against Samoa would let us gauge his progress.

Why would Hayes have retired after the Grand Slam if he was offered a contract? Horan lost his central contract, so it wasn't as if the IRFU were just handing them out for old time sake. Hayes would have been the worst in the world if he retired then bearing in mind that he was the only Irish qualified TH starting in the country.

As for the Connacht front row, I'm sure Kidney & Smal will be watching to see how they fare against the Ulster front row next weekend.

PhatPiggins

Daragh86 wrote: »

PhatPiggins wrote: »

Can Hagen play both sides of the scrum?/QUOTE]

No, only tight.

Why even consider moving him to loose? He is technically the best tighthead in Ireland. He needs to work on power, which seems to have come in heaps this season, and being a bit smarter in the scrum.

As I said though, technically he is by far the best in Ireland.

Wasn't suggesting that he did. Outwest wants him in the Ireland matchday squads. He either starts at TH or he sits on the bench where he would need to cover both sides, hence my LH question.

If someone mentions that he could come on at TH and Buckley could move to LH this thread should be locked.

padser

outwest wrote: »

wlook at the franks brothers, both are young but if they were irish they wouldnt get a look in because of there age,

The Franks brothers wouldn't get a look in Ireland???? Seriously?

So we wouldn't play Ben Franks (who is 26) or Owen Franks (who is almost 23) but we have a 9 times capped 22 year old who is first choice at loose head.


(Healy is 2 months older than the younger Franks)

Diom

thehighground wrote: »

Why would Hayes have retired after the Grand Slam if he was offered a contract? Horan lost his central contract, so it wasn't as if the IRFU were just handing them out for old time sake. Hayes would have been the worst in the world if he retired then bearing in mind that he was the only Irish qualified TH starting in the country.

As for the Connacht front row, I'm sure Kidney & Smal will be watching to see how they fare against the Ulster front row next weekend.

Fair enough. I wouldn't have turned down a contract in that position either. What I was saying is that it would have been a perfect time for him to bow out. Obviously it would not have worked out considering how things were at the time... and that's just a pity.

The FR at Ulster has been very strong this season. I just hope that our pack will be fresh enough to be able to support the FR properly some Saturday. A lot of niggly injuries and of course the lads in the back row must be wrecked.