Would you consider rejoining the Commonwealth for the sake of a united Ireland?

Brussels Sprout

Title pretty much says it all.

OhNoYouDidn't

I think it should be on the table for the upcoming negotiations allright.

Lenny Lovett

No!

Anyway. What would the advantages be (if any) of a United Ireland? Wouldn't it alienate too many people? I tend to think the Shinners are even having second thoughts about it now. I think they see that Norn Irn might be better off as an Independent state rather than part of the Republic.

garbanzo

Nope. Absolutely not.

Iwasfrozen

garbanzo wrote: »

Nope. Absolutely not.

Care to elaborate?

lugha

Anybody care to point what real difference it would make, and how? I suspect like many tribal projects, strong passions will be aroused by such an idea but ultimately it will matter not a sausage in the greater scheme of things.

Wolfe Tone

What would be the point? Sure we have the EU. We are partners with the UK in that.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What would be the point? Sure we have the EU. We are partners with the UK in that.

To appease Unionists.

Brussels Sprout

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What would be the point? Sure we have the EU. We are partners with the UK in that.

+1 The Commonwealth is from a bygone era when the British were the dominant world superpower

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To appease Unionists.

But we were in the commonwealth before and that was not good enough.

questionmark?

Wonder how Brussels Strasbourg Berlin those in the dail in Dublin would react to it???

Op what benefits would Ireland actually achieve out of re-joining the commonwealth? Our relations with London have never being better. Good ties with many other commonwealth countries that matter

Cú Giobach

As Mussolini said the Eu is enough (personally I feel too much, but thats another story).
Also I would not accept Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Windsor as my head of state.

dkin

I don't really see any reason not to join it. Alternatively I can't think of many reasons to join except for the fact that we would get to play in the commonwealth games which would be cool. Overall I think it would be better to be in the club than out of it.

Also I would not accept Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Windsor as my head of state.

This is nonsense as we wouldn't have to renounce any form of sovereignty or change our head of state.

caseyann

Country hasnt even been free a wet weekend and people are actually wanting back in.The shame of been Irish is all to much to handle now

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But we were in the commonwealth before and that was not good enough.

We left it to pursue a nationalistic agenda and in the process segregated ourselves futher from the North.

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

Country hasnt even been free a wet weekend and people are actually wanting back in.The shame of been Irish is all to much to handle now

Joinging the Commonwealth will not make us any less Irish. No less then Canadians are Canadians or Australians are Australians.

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We left it to pursue a nationalistic agenda and in the process segregated ourselves futher from the North.

So we swap one nationalistic agenda for another? Sensible.

b984jf93h

Hell no. Do ye want to really kill our culture and language? If we did somehow (impossibly) rejoin "Great" Britain I'd leave, and I wouldn't be the only one.

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Joinging the Commonwealth will not make us any less Irish. No less then Canadians are Canadians or Australians are Australians.

Is the EU not good enough?

Lenny Lovett

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Joinging the Commonwealth will not make us any less Irish. No less then Canadians are Canadians or Australians are Australians.

The Aussies and Canadians want out of the commonwealth so then all you'll have left are third world countries.... And GB!

dkin

Joining the commonwealth does NOT mean we would be rejoining the UK, destroying our culture, replacing our head of state or any of the other crazy things people have come up with so far. It would have almost no effect on the country whatsoever so please stop using such ignorant arguments this is politics not after hours.
I hate this knee jerk and emotive reaction that appears all the time.

caseyann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Joinging the Commonwealth will not make us any less Irish. No less then Canadians are Canadians or Australians are Australians.

Sorry my family didn't die to get out from the regime strings to voluntarily go back in.To rejoin that is spitting in face of those people and many many others.

I am very happy with the good relations we have with England now.
Doesnt need to change and most certainly would be over a few more dead bodies it would happen.Would you like to see that again.

PeterIanStaker

The ideas of a commonwealth and a united Ireland are both out of date. The commonwealth is a hangover from Imperial days while a UI wont work because of how much has changed north and south in the last forty years. I have no idea what solution there could be, if any, I just think that it isnt a priority.

Iwasfrozen

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Is the EU not good enough?

Well, no it isn't the EU does not recognise our shared cultural heritage with Unionists in the North and will not give us a United Ireland.

Lenny Lovett wrote:

The Aussies and Canadians want out of the commonwealth so then all you'll have left are third world countries.... And GB!

The Aussies and Canadians will not leave the Commonwealth, they have no reason to.

caseyann wrote:

Sorry my family didn't die to get out from the regime strings to voluntarily go back in.To rejoin that is spitting in face of those people and many many others.

We wouldn't be rejoining the United Kingdom. We would be rejoining the Commonwealth as a republic.

caseyann wrote:

I am very happy with the good relations we have with England now.
Doesnt need to change and most certainly would be over a few more dead bodies it would happen.Would you like to see that again.

I dodn't believe any killing would occur over our joinging of the Commnwealth, why would it? We would still be a republic, which would keep republicans happy and we would be recognising our shared cultural heritage with the British, which would keep the Unionists happy.

There is nothing to lose in this situation and the North to gain.

garbanzo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Care to elaborate?

To be honest there's something very subservient about the whole Commonwealth thing that grates with me. We're co-members of the EU. That's good enough for me.

lugha

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What would be the point? Sure we have the EU. We are partners with the UK in that.

Couldn't you make exactly the same point to argue against a united Ireland?

allthedoyles

OP wants Ireland to consider joining an institution that she has fought for 800 years to repel ?

caseyann

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We wouldn't be rejoining the United Kingdom. We would be rejoining the Commonwealth as a republic.


I dodn't believe any killing would occur over our joinging of the Commnwealth, why would it? We would still be a republic, which would keep republicans happy and we would be recognising our shared cultural heritage with the British, which would keep the Unionists happy.

There is nothing to lose in this situation and the North to gain.

It is exactly the same thing.IMO And you are saluting something which was a factor in the repression of this country and people,not to mention other countries.
It is not good for Ireland and it would not make anyone happy but unionists and sell outs.
This is our country even if England runs up north.
I have better idea Scots give back Scotland and move here and unionists move there

Brussels Sprout

allthedoyles wrote: »

OP wants Ireland to consider joining an institution that she has fought for 800 years to repel ?

I started this thread because someone mentioned it in a different thread and I thought they were trying to wind people up. I wouldn't have even thought that this was something anyone would seriously consider.

Wolfe Tone

lugha wrote: »

Couldn't you make exactly the same point to argue against a united Ireland?

Do we have to go into this again?

You dont see the difference in a country being in a group, and said countries combining together?

Iwasfrozen

caseyann wrote: »

It is exactly the same thing.IMO And you are saluting something which was a factor in the repression of this country and people,not to mention other countries.

By joinging the Commonwealth as a republic we aren't saluting the British monarchy. Only our shared cultural heritage with the British and Unionists up North.

caseyann wrote: »

It is not good for Ireland and it would not make anyone happy but unionists and sell outs.

It would make republicans happy to see a reunified Ireland under a republican government.

caseyann wrote: »

This is our country even if England runs up north.

You've answered yourself there. It isn't our country since England runs up North. If you could only see past the knee jerk reaction most people have to this you would see that rejoining the commonwealth would give us our country, in full, without one person dieing. England would no longer have a political mandate in Ireland.

dkin

garbanzo wrote: »

To be honest there's something very subservient about the whole Commonwealth thing that grates with me. We're co-members of the EU. That's good enough for me.

That's only your perception and opinion. However it is not grounded in fact. How are Canada and Australia subservient? The commonwealth is a union of equals just like the EU. Nations are in no way subservient, it is simply a club of countries with historical ties.

Brussels Sprout

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By joinging the Commonwealth as a republic we aren't saluting the British monarchy. Only our shared cultural heritage with the British and Unionists up North.

Would that be the shared heritage of the British colonising all the other members in the past?

It's like a load of rape victims meeting up with their common rapist to catch up on their shared history

dkin

caseyann wrote: »

It is exactly the same thing.

You're simply wrong here, it is not the same thing.

And you are saluting something which was a factor in the repression of this country and people,not to mention other countries.

We are not saluting anything we are simply joining a group of countries with historical ties.

It is not good for Ireland and it would not make anyone happy but unionists and sell outs.

You are degenerating into emotive arguements based on your 'sell outs' comment. It should be treated with indifference more than making anyone happy or unhappy.

This is our country even if England runs up north.
I have better idea Scots give back Scotland and move here and unionists move there

England doesn't run Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland is a part of the UK which is a democratic state made of up NI, England, Scotland and Wales. Due to GFA it could join the south if the majority willed it. People generally make their own decisions these days. Big bad England isn't quite what you perceive it to be.

Zambia

If it guaranteed a United Ireland I would consider rejoining the UK.

Its amazing how some people swallow the murder of innocents in the name of a united Ireland but would never advocate the swallowing of their pride.

"Only the dark side deals in absoloutes".

caseyann

Zambia232 wrote: »

If it guaranteed a United Ireland I would consider rejoining the UK.

Its amazing how some people swallow the murder of innocents in the name of a united Ireland but would never advocate the swallowing of their pride.

"Only the dark side deals in absoloutes".

The force is with you Luke :P

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

By joinging the Commonwealth as a republic we aren't saluting the British monarchy. Only our shared cultural heritage with the British and Unionists up North.


It would make republicans happy to see a reunified Ireland under a republican government.


You've answered yourself there. It isn't our country since England runs up North. If you could only see past the knee jerk reaction most people have to this you would see that rejoining the commonwealth would give us our country, in full, without one person dieing. England would no longer have a political mandate in Ireland.

You've answered yourself there. It isn't our country since England runs up North. If you could only see past the knee jerk reaction most people have to this you would see that rejoining the commonwealth would give us our country, in full, without one person dieing. England would no longer have a political mandate in Ireland.

Do you think that rejoining the commonwealth would banish unionist concerns?

dkin

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

It's like a load of rape victims meeting up with their common rapist to catch up on their shared history

Once again the unecessary emotive arguments. Did you ever consider that you currently partake in the rape of many of the worlds natural resources to the detriment of people in very poor countries largly supported by the actions of major power blocs such as the EU and the USA. I would take a good look in the mirror before acusing other people of raping your country.

What do you think the EU is? Unfortunately most of the countries in this part of the world were and are pretty bloodthirsty. We've the Romans, Normans, Vikings, Germans etc. etc. We can't all sit around bearing grudges through the generations.

jugger0

You cant appease unionists, and why should we try?

At the end of the day this is Ireland, if you want to be british and worship the queen you should go live in britain, im sure they'd give you a warm welcome...

Brussels Sprout

dkin wrote: »

What do you think the EU is? Unfortunately most of the countries in this part of the world were and are pretty bloodthirsty. We've the Romans, Normans, Vikings, Germans etc. etc. We can't all sit around bearing grudges through the generations.

Of course not and I'm delighted that we have a great relationship with the English now. I just don't think that we need to join the club whose only connection is that they were all controlled by the same country.

The Commonwealth is a relic. If we're going to be forging new alliances then it should be with countries that can help us in the future. We're already in the EU and have strong ties to the states so we should be looking toward the emerging economic powerhouses like Brazil, China and India. Rejoining the Commonwealth would be a big waste of time.

lugha

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Do we have to go into this again?

You dont see the difference in a country being in a group, and said countries combining together?

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Ireland rejoining the commonwealth (which I don't favour by the way) would not amount to us "combining" with another country?
Indeed the EU project is much more about pooling sovereignty. Of course, the EU project is presented largely without any nationalism nonsense so it doesn't provoke the hilarious and hysterical reactions we are seeing on this thread.
And my point still stands. If the EU binds us together sufficiently to enable us mutually benefit from such cooperation then there is no good reason (as opposed to desire) to push for Irish unity.

dkin

jugger0 wrote: »

You cant appease unionists, and why should we try?

At the end of the day this is Ireland, if you want to be british and worship the queen you should go live in britain, im sure they'd give you a warm welcome...

Once again joining the commonwealth does not mean worshiping the Queen or living in Britain. This is a emotive and incorrect argument. If we joined we would still be Ireland, it would have almost no effect whatsoever. You'd swear people in Ireland were hardwired to respond like this at the mere mention of Britain. I blame propaganda in school.

caseyann

lugha wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by that? Ireland rejoining the commonwealth (which I don't favour by the way) would not amount to us "combining" with another country?
Indeed the EU project is much more about pooling sovereignty. Of course, the EU project is presented largely without any nationalism nonsense so it doesn't provoke the hilarious and hysterical reactions we are seeing on this thread.
And my point still stands. If the EU binds us together sufficiently to enable us mutually benefit from such cooperation then there is no good reason (as opposed to desire) to push for Irish unity.

Nationalism and pride of nationality is in every country in Europe.No different and perhaps more than here from what i can see.And try tell them they shouldnt be!

dkin

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Of course not and I'm delighted that we have a great relationship with the English now. I just don't think that we need to join the club whose only connection is that they were all controlled by the same country.

The Commonwealth is a relic. If we're going to be forging new alliances then it should be with countries that can help us in the future. We're already in the EU and have strong ties to the states so we should be looking toward the emerging economic powerhouses like Brazil, China and India. Rejoining the Commonwealth would be a big waste of time.

In fairness that's a proper argument and I agree with most of it. I personally don't see any major benefit myself for the reasons you outlined however I don't see any major reasons why not either. A big waste of time for who exactly? However I think it would be cool to enter teams into the commonwealth games so on that basis I favour it but that's pretty much it. I also think it would formally recognise our history with Britain and put us on a more mature footing as we have a very immature identification with Britain as can be witnessed in most of the posts on this thread.

mike65

dkin wrote: »

That's only your perception and opinion. However it is not grounded in fact. How are Canada and Australia subservient? The commonwealth is a union of equals just like the EU. Nations are in no way subservient, it is simply a club of countries with historical ties.

I think you'll find Ireland is rather subservient to the EU in countless ways. Just ask who's the daddy for Ireland and its Frankfurt/Brussells not London.

Joining the Commonweath wouldn't change anything other than some perceptions.

dkin

mike65 wrote: »

I think you'll find Ireland is rather subservient to the EU in countless ways. Just ask who's the daddy for Ireland and its Frankfurt/Brussells not London.

Joining the Commonweath wouldn't change anything other than some perceptions.

You are of course correct however the EU is a democratic institution not some form of tyranny.

lugha

caseyann wrote: »

Nationalism and pride of nationality is in every country in Europe.No different and perhaps more than here from what i can see.And try tell them they shouldnt be!

Not sure what that has to do with the point I am making?
But certainly I would much prefer a great diminishing of nationalistic sentiment. Far more a force for evil than good IMO.

karma_

lugha wrote: »

Not sure what that has to do with the point I am making?
But certainly I would much prefer a great diminishing of nationalistic sentiment. Far more a force for evil than good IMO.

You think nationalism stops at the Irish sea?

Ren2k7

The OP created this thread in response to a suggestion I made about Ireland rejoining the Commonwealth at this thread. Here is what I said in that thread about why I believe we should rejoin the Commonwealth:

Commonwealth members are fully sovereign countries with all the powers that go with it. In the Commonwealth the state would swap one head of state (in our case, the president) with another (the British monarch). Canada, Australia, New Zealand, etc are members of the Commonwealth but enjoy full sovereignty over all matters pertaining to themselves.

In a hypothetical United Ireland, something like 20% of the population would be of the Unionist/British tradition so having Ireland in the Commonwealth would be something that they would want and would go a long way in healing communal divisions. True, under the GFA the republic or any possible United Ireland is not obliged to join the Commonwealth but I think it should be seriously considered when the time for unity approaches. It's all about compromise and respect for each others culture and traditions.

TBH, I think Ireland leaving the Commonwealth in 1949 was a mistake that further alienated our Unionist cousins and pushed them further away from us in the South.
Source: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67867885&postcount=41

As a caveat to the above post I would like to mention that even if you find the idea of having the Queen as your Head of State repulsive then it's possible to be a Republic and still be part of the Commonwealth. India and Pakistan are republics and also members of the Commonwealth. They, like Ireland, fought for many years for their independence but today are still members. I can't see the reason for Ireland not being a member.

Finally, to those who would argue Ireland would lose it's independence just take a look back to the Second World War when Ireland was the only Commonwealth country not to fight with Britain against the axis. Despite all the pressures from Churchill, Ireland stayed neutral so I wouldn't be worrying about loss of sovereignty.

caseyann

lugha wrote: »

Not sure what that has to do with the point I am making?
But certainly I would much prefer a great diminishing of nationalistic sentiment. Far more a force for evil than good IMO.

Never going to happen,And you try tell them in every other country not to be nationalistic you wont get anywhere.:D

Shea O'Meara

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well, no it isn't the EU does not recognise our shared cultural heritage with Unionists in the North and will not give us a United Ireland.

People in the North and South who have a shared cultural heritage don't need an outside organisation to validate it.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The Aussies and Canadians will not leave the Commonwealth, they have no reason to.

That is not a fact. It's a major discussion in both countries. Reason? Nationalism and pride in themselves. Nationalism need not be a dirty word. It can stand for cultural independence and wanting your fellow countrymen and women to chart their own course in every aspect of what it means to exist as a country and have your own unique culture in your own right. You throw out Nationalism you throw out culture and you are left with a homogenised dull world.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We wouldn't be rejoining the United Kingdom. We would be rejoining the Commonwealth as a republic.

So we wouldn't be joining the United Kingdom, just a kind of club they own, run and chair? We are already a sham republic in many senses, this would be embarrassing for us and cause many deaths for many years.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I dodn't believe any killing would occur over our joinging of the Commnwealth, why would it? We would still be a republic, which would keep republicans happy and we would be recognising our shared cultural heritage with the British, which would keep the Unionists happy.

Killing will continue to occur and I would suggest, be nationwide and of more frequency. People would feel betrayed and a mockery would be made of our heritage.
As for our shared heritage with Britain, slaughter to the point of genocide, ignoring human rights and occupation are a major part of the British culture. Any minute sharing of that culture on our part should not be celebrated.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is nothing to lose in this situation and the North to gain.

Self respect for one thing and people from the 'North' may disagree as I believe they don't all see eye to eye on some issues.