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Does god really give a...?

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    #32
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    Couple of questions I'd love to have answered:

    1. Is god omniscience?

    2. Does god know everything that was, is, will be - and is possible?

    3. Does he have any control over over the world? (i.e. can he interevene at will?)

    4. If he is against Homosexuality for instance, why does he allow it to happen? (i.e. why does he allow it to be even possible - why did he create us with the potentail to do it - body parts and ideas of it?)

    5. Does God want some people to go to hell?

    6. Why does god allow 'evil'?

    6b. If the devil is to blame, does that mean that the devil is as powerful as god?

    6c. If God is omniscience, how did he not know about the rise of Evil - and why didn't he stamp it out as soon as it occurred?

    7. Why did god give us free will if it was only going to make him angry? Surely he would have known that by giving us it, we would question everything - and DO everything?

    All answers appreciated, but any mention of 'mysterious ways' and I'm heading over to countmeout today.


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    #33
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    mehfesto wrote: »
    any mention of 'mysterious ways' and I'm heading over to countmeout today.

    It's all part of the 'divine plan'...


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    #34
    mehfesto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,277 ✭✭✭mehfesto


    Galvasean wrote: »
    It's all part of the 'divine plan'...

    That too. Any of that 'we don't know' stuff veiled as evidence for it all and I'm getting out today.


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    #35
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Galvasean wrote: »
    It's all part of the 'divine plan'...

    I can't take a deity seriously whose divine plan includes mass death. He's like a kid with an antfarm and a magnifying glass on a sunny day, but more sadistic.

    He's the ultimate politician, nobody really knows what he actually does, he gets all the praise when stuff goes right and none of the blame when stuff goes wrong, his PR agent is a genius.


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    #36
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGR4SFOimlk


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    #37
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    mehfesto wrote: »
    Couple of questions I'd love to have answered:

    1. Is god omniscience?

    2. Does god know everything that was, is, will be - and is possible?

    3. Does he have any control over over the world? (i.e. can he interevene at will?)

    4. If he is against Homosexuality for instance, why does he allow it to happen? (i.e. why does he allow it to be even possible - why did he create us with the potentail to do it - body parts and ideas of it?)

    5. Does God want some people to go to hell?

    6. Why does god allow 'evil'?

    6b. If the devil is to blame, does that mean that the devil is as powerful as god?

    6c. If God is omniscience, how did he not know about the rise of Evil - and why didn't he stamp it out as soon as it occurred?

    7. Why did god give us free will if it was only going to make him angry? Surely he would have known that by giving us it, we would question everything - and DO everything?

    All answers appreciated, but any mention of 'mysterious ways' and I'm heading over to countmeout today.

    All of these can be answered by the simple reasoning that the bible has more plot holes than a Michael Bay movie, it was written by simpler people to keep other simple people in check. We should have elevated our thinking beyond fairy tales and ancient mysticism and ludicrous belief in the face of reason, but hey, we're only human.


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    #38
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    Coalmines are a naturally occurring feature?
    No, the cave-ins are a naturally-occurring feature.

    Miners generally don't try to cause cave-ins themselves. God, on the other hand, if he were a deity of infinite love, would as direct the miners away from dangerous areas, as he would surely intervene to protect the miners from disaster if it did happen. Seems he took his eye off the ball in Chile last month.

    I don't have stats to hand, but I'm sure it's quite easy to show that, say, the mining industry (when there still was one) in the relatively atheist UK was far, far safer than the current industry in Chile (85% christian). Which would lead one to suspect that the christian deity who was apathetically failing to protect his faithful charges in Chile, seems to have had a lot of time to protect the damned in England. A funny chap!


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    #39
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Mysterious ways, ftw.


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    #40
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Zillah wrote: »
    This bit is made up too, fyi.

    so this universe doesn't exist then? That is slightly worrying no?


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    #41
    ColmDawson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    topper75 wrote: »
    so this universe doesn't exist then? That is slightly worrying no?
    He never said that. Your deist approach, while far more reasonable than a theist one, still pulls the first bit ("God created the universe") out of thin air.


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    #42
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    robindch wrote: »
    Which would lead one to suspect that the christian deity who was apathetically failing to protect his faithful charges in Chile, seems to have had a lot of time to protect the damned in England. A funny chap!

    Perhaps there is a bit in the Bible about mining that me missed.


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    #43
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Galvasean wrote: »
    Perhaps there is a bit in the Bible about mining that me missed.

    It got mistranslated as "cheesemakers"


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    #44
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    ColmDawson wrote: »
    He never said that. Your deist approach, while far more reasonable than a theist one, still pulls the first bit ("God created the universe") out of thin air.

    Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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    #45
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    topper75 wrote: »
    Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    The fact that people say "creation is evidence of a creator" is itself evidence of hyperactive Agency Detection. People used to think that lightning was evidence of an intelligent being but now we know better.

    Creation could (maybe) be said to be evidence of something that caused it to be created but I see no reason to attach the label "god" to it or say that it should have any of the characteristics of an intelligent being. Why do you think it should have the label god?


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    #46
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    topper75 wrote: »
    Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    And religous thinking is quick to assume some bloke in the sky created what we cant possibly fathom as an easy answer. Since theres no way to debunk the fact he doesnt exist thats all the proof most theists need. We should worship the sun, like George Carlin "I know the sun exists, because I can see it, I'm big on that, if I can see something, it kinda helps the credibility of its existence"


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    #47
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,404 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    topper75 wrote: »
    Creation is evidence of a Creator.
    What conscious entity creates mountains?


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    #48
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    topper75 wrote: »
    Creation is evidence of a Creator.
    Isn't that a wee bit circular?


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    #49
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    If God exists then he's an almighty cúnt.

    Fin.


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    #50
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    topper75 wrote: »
    Not so. Creation is evidence of a Creator. Atheist thinking is quick to deny the existence of God in the face of lack of evidence for the God as portrayed in organised religion. They throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    Dades wrote: »
    Isn't that a wee bit circular?
    robindch wrote: »
    What conscious entity creates mountains?
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    The fact that people say "creation is evidence of a creator" is itself evidence of hyperactive Agency Detection. People used to think that lightning was evidence of an intelligent being but now we know better.

    Creation could (maybe) be said to be evidence of something that caused it to be created but I see no reason to attach the label "god" to it or say that it should have any of the characteristics of an intelligent being. Why do you think it should have the label god?
    krudler wrote: »
    And religous thinking is quick to assume some bloke in the sky created what we cant possibly fathom as an easy answer. Since theres no way to debunk the fact he doesnt exist thats all the proof most theists need. We should worship the sun, like George Carlin "I know the sun exists, because I can see it, I'm big on that, if I can see something, it kinda helps the credibility of its existence"

    I'm reminded of this photo for some reason:
    145946.jpg


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    #51
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Creation could (maybe) be said to be evidence of something that caused it to be created but I see no reason to attach the label "god" to it or say that it should have any of the characteristics of an intelligent being. Why do you think it should have the label god?

    That is as far as I am going (bolded above) myself. I really don't get your issue with the label. I don't know anything about God or the intelligence of God. Maybe the label has been polluted for you because of organised religions' characterisation of God as a being/person of sorts. I could also say Force or First Cause if it makes you feel better.
    krudler wrote: »
    And religous thinking is quick to assume some bloke in the sky created what we cant possibly fathom as an easy answer.

    I don't believe in a 'bloke in the sky' myself. LOL at the condescension. We can fathom a good deal of creation and the origin of the universe it seems. Chapter 1 of The Short History of Nearly Everything by Bill Bryson gives a good layman's description.


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    #52
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    topper75 wrote: »
    That is as far as I am going (bolded above) myself. I really don't get your issue with the label. I don't know anything about God or the intelligence of God. Maybe the label has been polluted for you because of organised religions' characterisation of God as a being/person of sorts. I could also say Force or First Cause if it makes you feel better.

    Well yes the label has been polluted by religions but even in its simplest form of "intelligent being" it makes a massive pile of totally unjustified assumptions. Terms like "first cause" and "force" make me think of things like gravity and electromagnetism and I don't think it makes any sense to call either of those things god. Atheists don't necessarily throw out the idea that there was a first cause/force, they just object to calling it god and/or making any assumptions about intelligence being involved


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    #53
    ColmDawson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    But we don't know how the universe came to be. Why say things like "God created the universe"? You can't know this.

    Even if you wish to leap into supposing it was caused by some 'Force', I can't for the life of me understand why you would want to call that God.


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    #54
    Doctor DooM
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    topper75 wrote: »
    so this universe doesn't exist then? That is slightly worrying no?

    He didn't say that, he was just pointing out you can't prove god started the universe either. You're stating as fact something you've no evidence for.

    And thus begins the beginning of the universe argument which has been done to death already :D


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    #55
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Lets not get into who created what, thats been done to death, this is about if god cares about us, which he clearly doesnt,if he exists, which he doesnt....yay!

    I was watching Religulous a few nights ago, now I may not agree with everything Maher says in it and he doesnt do the arrogant athiest stereotype any favours, but his reasoning is sound. the "doubt is humble" point, its arrogant to suggest we "know" god exists, as it is to suggest we know he doesnt. We dont know (or at least I dont) and I'd happily be proved wrong if he ever decides to show up and debunk all the lunacy surrounding his existence, but as thats about a likely to happen as a herd of unicorns being found alive and well in Limerick then doubt it is.


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    #56
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    hippo

    Why would you do this to me Sam? :(


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    #57
    Ash.J.Williams
    Registered Users Posts: 20,930 ✭✭✭✭Ash.J.Williams


    They should seriously ban all talk of God here for a week and see is there anything else to talk about....I thought I might be an atheist, with my lack of belief in religion, but it's worse than bloody mass here sometimes....


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    #58
    krudler
    Registered Users Posts: 34,788 ✭✭✭✭krudler


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    They should seriously ban all talk of God here for a week and see is there anything else to talk about....I thought I might be an atheist, with my lack of belief in religion, but it's worse than bloody mass here sometimes....

    Talking about god in an atheism forum, the shock! :eek:

    they should ban people from talking about soccer in the soccer forum too, that'd go down well.


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    #59
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    I thought I might be an atheist, with my lack of belief in religion, but it's worse than bloody mass here sometimes....
    At least hang around for the collection basket. You have a PayPal account, I assume? :)


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    #60
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Ash.J.Williams wrote: »
    I thought I might be an atheist, with my lack of belief in religion, but it's worse than bloody mass here sometimes....

    My beliefs by Ash J Williams:

    Am I an atheist? (PS. I lack believe in a deity)

    Do they talk about God a lot in the atheist forum?
    1. Yes --> Therefore, I am not atheist
    2. No --> Therefore, I am atheist


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    #61
    johanz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭johanz


    If god is almighty, why doesn't he stop all the sinners and crimes and evil in the world?
    If he can but doesn't, he's an asshole. If he can't, he is not almighty. In both ways he does not deserve to be prayed to.
    I praise Cthulu instead


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