Storage heater Newbie

limboy

Hello,

I just arrived in Ireland, so storage heaters are new to me. I found a user guide online, but I still have some questions.

For example, in summer I only need hot water for doing the dishes, not for the heating (the electric shower heats water by itself). Isn't is a massive waste of (off-peak) electricity to heat almost the whole night for at most 7 litres of hot water for the dishes?

Second, if I heat (off-peak) anyway, why not switch on the heater in the living room to use the heat at least, even if it's only a bit chilly inside? I mean, I've paid for the electricity already, and there's no way I can spend all that heat doing the dishes. The heat surplus will otherwise simply disappear, right?

Does anyone know what exactly the 1 Hour Boost means? Does it produce the same amount of heat in less time, or simply less heat? Can I use it at off-peak hours too?

Finally, what if the heat runs out during a very cold day? Does it then heat during the day? I'm asking because there is just OFF-PEAK and OFF on the control panel.

Thanks!

handydandy

limboy wrote: »

For example, in summer I only need hot water for doing the dishes, not for the heating (the electric shower heats water by itself). Isn't is a massive waste of (off-peak) electricity to heat almost the whole night for at most 7 litres of hot water for the dishes?

Immersion, not your storage heating for this.

limboy wrote: »

Does anyone know what exactly the 1 Hour Boost means? Does it produce the same amount of heat in less time, or simply less heat? Can I use it at off-peak hours too?

It just switches your system back on for another hour, this is when you don't use your timer to set times for on and off, you just hit the boost button and it turns on.

Storage heating is the worst ever!! Sorry.

limboy

Thanks. So how should I activate this "immersion". All I have is the control panel as shown in the online manual. I don't see any "immersion" switch anywhere...

I need to pull a cord to get hot water for the shower, but I guess it's not connected to the kitchen.

handydandy

First of all do you know what an immersion is?

Well it is a heating element in your hot water cylinder, basically like the heating element in your kettle but on a much larger scale.

Your storage heating are thermal blocks, you could say like building blocks!! inside what looks like a large radiator. These are also heated up with heating elements like your kettle but they are not connected in anyway to your water supply.

Standard storage heating control panels only control your storage heating which includes the boost button.

Usually beside them is the immersion switch or else it could be in you hot press were your hot water cylinder is.

Have a look in your hot press and see if you can find anything.

limboy

Sorry, also immersion is new for me.
I looked at the hot water cylinder, but no switch.

There is a small black tank on top. It refills whenever I use water (even when flushing the toilet). I guess it contains cold water only.

handydandy

Small black tank for water sitting above your hot water cylinder, have a look at the top of the cylinder and see if there is any small cylindrical device, usually white plastic, with an electrical cable coming out.

If not there is no more I can do for you.

knx

Limboy,
The control panel you have linked to is your immersion switch. It has nothing to do with the storage heaters. Here is a thread which might help you out with the actual heaters. You should have two elements on your cylinder. One is on the bottom and is controlled with the timer (off and timed switch) side of the control panel and another on the top of which is controlled with the boost switch. The idea is that the bottom element or immersion will come on during off peak hours to heat the entire tank and the top element can be switched on at any time to heat the top of the tank for a small amount of water. You will notice that the boost switch is also a timer with a max setting of 60 minutes. So basically if you just wanna wash dishes you might as well stick to the boost function every day. Trial and error will tell you how long to turn it on for.

arik11

Hi
I am a “newbie “ to storage heaters and have found all postings very helpful. I have the basic Creda heaters with 2 dials .
Still puzzled with this Devireg 710-2 Thingy in the fuse box. What exactly is the dial next to the red flashing light for with
+4 +2 0 -2 -4 next to it .Even on the Devireg web site this is not clearly explained.
Thanks

Red Alert

Quick guide to them:

Storage heaters get hot during the night. There is a sealed clock near your electricity meter that controls the supply to the heaters. Most of the time it's 12pm to 8am summer time and 11pm to 7am winter time.

If you're on a "heat only" tariff, the clock controls your heating and doesn't interfere with other appliances. More likely you're on a Nightsaver tariff, where the clock turns on your heaters and changes your electricity supply over to the night tariff.

Start off with the Input or Charge control about half way, and turn on the switch on the wall. You should see the neon light on the switch turn on at around midnight, and switch off after 7am in the morning.

The Output or Boost control will let you control how fast the heat gets out. Start with it very low to make sure the stored heat lasts the whole day, and turn it up in the evening when you get home if you need more heat.

Your storage heaters may also have a separate fan or convector heater that uses normal electricity. It's best to avoid using this if possible. Your heater may be a fan-assisted storage heater which is a bit different, but there are very few of them in Ireland.

The water heater is totally separate. The tank will be heated automatically if the timer is set, and is cheaper than using the boost control.

arik11

Thanks.Still puzzled with this Devireg 710-2 Thingy in the fuse box. What exactly is the dial next to the red flashing light for with
+4 +2 0 -2 -4 next to it .Even on the Devireg web site this is not clearly explained

Red Alert

The Devireg units are fitted in some installations, I've never used one personally though.

Instead of having to adjust the Input control to suit the weather, the Devireg box varies the amount of time that the heating is on. When the storage heating clock turns on (between 11pm/12am), the Devireg will calculate the number of hours that the storage heaters need to be charged for to suit the outdoor temperature. On warmer days it'll charge them for fewer hours, on colder days they will charge for longer. The charging is delayed, so the Devireg will turn the heaters on at the correct time during the night.

It's generally best to set the Input controls on the individual heaters to max if you've a Devireg. In Ireland the "Day" dial (if there is one) is not normally used. If it's too cold the next day turn the dial on the devireg to higher numbers, if it's too warm turn it to the lower numbers. Once you've that set, it will auto-adjust to the changing weather conditions.

The Devireg can be a bit hard understand, but if set up correctly I hear they work very well. Hope that helps.

arik11

Very much appreciated.Thank you.

limboy

I used to get an email if a new reply was posted to this thread, so when I got nothing I thought the topic was dead. Therefore I missed some of the replies, sorry.

@handydandy
Some white cables come out of the big tank, but no small cylindrical device. The upper half of the small black tank is out of sight/reach, so I doubt there's a switch up there.

Maybe this pictures will clear things up... (I haven't thrown away the previous tenant's stuff yet)




@knx
Thanks! That makes perfect sense. Just wondering if, after having done the dishes, I can use the "remainder" of the heat (stored in the small black tank) for heating the living room?

With regard to controls, I have this control panel close to the tanks


Then this in the corridor


and this in the living room

moceri

I have a devireg 710-2 installed on the Night Storage Heaters. The kit consists of small sensor box is fitted to a north wall. This senses the outside temperature which is fed through a signal wire to a controller on your Consumer Unit. This regulates the almount of electricity fed to your storage heaters according to external temperature. Set the thermostat input on each individual heater at High/Max.

The unit automatically senses when your Night Tariff switches on and off (say 11pm to 8am).
On mild nights your storage heating may not switch on until 7am and the heaters do not become very hot, but your house is comfortable because it's not cold outside. On Bitter cold nights the Storage heating charge will begin at 11pm and charge all night to ensure your Heaters are at full strength. There are tweaking buttons on the controller to adjust the level of charge to your requirements (depending on your wiring set up, to also provide a small boost to the heaters mid day, although I think this is not available in ROI, only in the UK)
It is very useful, as the system is "set and forget" and it adjusts your electricity heating inputs according to weather conditions, so you don't have to be fiddling every day with your heating controls. I reckon It saved Me about €100 per year. It cost €100 to buy in 2005, so it has paid for itself.

Red Alert

The Day control will do nothing here I've since found out. The controller will figure out the night period. In the UK there are a few tariffs where you're given a "top up" during the day time, typically in the late afternoon. The controller will watch for a shorter time like that and let you adjust the charge time with the Day knob.

arik11

Very informative and helpful.Thank you.

crosstownk

limboy wrote: »

@knx
Thanks! That makes perfect sense. Just wondering if, after having done the dishes, I can use the "remainder" of the heat (stored in the small black tank) for heating the living room?

Firstly, the black tank up high in the cupboard is a cold water storage tank. The cylinder below stores your hot water. As you use hot water from it it is refilled from the black tank.

Hot water in the cylinder has no connection to your storage heating. The two systems are independent. So the answer to your question is no, you cannot use the remaining heat for the living room after you have finished the dishes.

limboy

Thanks everybody. I got the storage heating working (well, so-so) and realise that the cilinders in the cupboard have nothing to do with heating. These systems are pretty weird, if you ask me. I mean, I have this huge tank in a cupboard and I can't even use the hot water for a shower as the shower is electric.

The whole of Europe is warmed with (Russian) gas, so why do so may Irish apartments have storage heating? Heating brickes at night and having only limited control over the output - my friends wouldn't believe it. I'm stuck with it now, so I'll make the most of it.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful comments!

dobsdave

limboy wrote: »

Thanks everybody. I got the storage heating working (well, so-so) and realise that the cilinders in the cupboard have nothing to do with heating. These systems are pretty weird, if you ask me. I mean, I have this huge tank in a cupboard and I can't even use the hot water for a shower as the shower is electric.

The whole of Europe is warmed with (Russian) gas, so why do so may Irish apartments have storage heating? Heating brickes at night and having only limited control over the output - my friends wouldn't believe it. I'm stuck with it now, so I'll make the most of it.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful comments!

My parents have them so I knew what to avoid when I was renting.
At a guess, I would say it is alot easier for a builder to install storage heaters in an apartment block, than to install gas/oil system.
Obviously they wouldn't have to live with the idiotic system afterwards either:(

arik11

Hello.
Sorry for this "strange " question but I am curious .I have asked my land lord who had no idea.Nor did any of neighbors.Have 2 storage heaters (creda) and the Devireg as described above. BUT: also have this small switch in the hallway.Can not figure out what it controls.When it's on the light only shows when the heaters are consuming electricity.Shutting it ff does not effect the heaters.Anyone with an idea?Thanks a lot:rolleyes:

M cebee

sounds like a spare

have you any storage in the hall

arik11

Nothing in the hall.Just 2 in the living room and they have their indevidual controls,Spare is my guess as well...just fishing for maybe other ideas

M cebee

spare so
assumimg the drink isn't affecting my judgement:)


prob left it out

Red Alert

It's most likely to be for a spare storage heater. Very unlikely that it could be anything else, but if it's a cement floor it could be for storage underfloor heating. Would be very unusual not to have it in the entire house though.

Storage wouldn't be quite so idiotic if builders installed fan assisted storage heaters like the Dimplex FXL or the Creda Sensair unts. They've a very high amount of insulation and less heat leaks out than with normal storage heaters. When you get home in the evening you turn the fan on to extract the heat quickly. Unfortunately they're more expensive, so of course the builder's don't.

The overall idea really originated in the UK when they began to build nuclear plants, which can't easily vary their output.

jkforde

Not a storage heating noobie but only decided this year to actually learn how to set it up properly!

I understand the actual wall unit's settings but the Devireg 710-2 fusebox controller is still vague with me but there's a good post here by boomer3 . I understand the Day control is irrelevant (but it was set to constant by the installer so have just set it to the middle) so then what do the -4 to +4 Night control numbers actually mean or do? and what would the outside sensor look like because I have a feeling it was never installed in this apartment . (and if the outside sensor wasn't installed what does that mean for the Night control settings?!) jesus, next place is going to have a open fire and back boiler!

arik11

Hi There.
This is the picture of the sensor we have outside.As for the numbers,I have my devireg on on +4.Noticed it does not turn the heating on (for now as its about 10 outside )otherwise.Will continue experimenting.

jkforde

thanks for the pic, very helpful! can now definitely say that there isn't any obvious sensor connected to the 710-2 unit :rolleyes:. hmm, so where does that leave me with the dial settings...will start experimenting!

M cebee

jkforde wrote: »

Not a storage heating noobie but only decided this year to actually learn how to set it up properly!

I understand the actual wall unit's settings but the Devireg 710-2 fusebox controller is still vague with me but there's a good post here by boomer3 . I understand the Day control is irrelevant (but it was set to constant by the installer so have just set it to the middle) so then what do the -4 to +4 Night control numbers actually mean or do? and what would the outside sensor look like because I have a feeling it was never installed in this apartment . (and if the outside sensor wasn't installed what does that mean for the Night control settings?!) jesus, next place is going to have a open fire and back boiler!

afaik the manual says-set day button to midrange

they'd hardly fit it without sensor?

jkforde

ya, have the 710-2 unit Day dial set to midrange now (was at constant position); and, after a good hard look, it doesn't look like any sensor is fitted to the unit but am chasing up the original sparkey to double check it's not well hidden somewhere! btw, any ESB sparkeys on the forum... would it be a complex job fitting one? ta for any info

edit: after night rate should've kicked in at midnight tonight the indicator light was still green and I didn't hear the usual clicking sounds from the fusebox.. so I moved the Day dial back to Constant and the light turned red and night rate kicked in... so the Day dial is controlling the night rate timing... so now more confused than ever!

Red Alert

Const will just turn on the output relay, so it'll work (technically). You're actually bypassing the Devireg unit when you do that.

Devireg units should generally be wired up in such a way that even if they calculate a longer charge than the nightsaver period, the contactor will drop out once the nightsaver period ends.

The other thing to remember is that it's still not very cold at night - it's still above 10 degrees or so, which means that the Devireg unit might not start charging the heaters until the early hours of the morning.

M cebee

Red Alert wrote: »

Const will just turn on the output relay, so it'll work (technically). You're actually bypassing the Devireg unit when you do that.

Devireg units should generally be wired up in such a way that even if they calculate a longer charge than the nightsaver period, the contactor will drop out once the nightsaver period ends.

The other thing to remember is that it's still not very cold at night - it's still above 10 degrees or so, which means that the Devireg unit might not start charging the heaters until the early hours of the morning.

assuming the control pair is used -the contactor will drop out

jkforde

thanks for the replies. I don't have the greatest mechanical mind on the planet so bear with me... I understand that the NSHs will work no problem without a Devireg controller but if there is one fitted with no associated sensors then setting it to anything other than Constant will just confuse the controller which will never get a signal from the non-existent sensors and so wont ever click in... hence in my case the Day dial has to be set to Constant thereby bypassing the Devireg, is that right? (by the way, the Devireg unit has nothing to do with the NightSaver hot water immersion right?) Thanks!

M cebee

yes -the devireg has nothing to with with electric water heating

have you checked for a sensor? a small white box on a 'shaded north facing wall 'probably

i think it would be unusual for one to be omitted


if you're competent it can be checked at DB-the sensor can be checked with a multimeter

jkforde

thanks. ya, had a good look for the sensor (like the one arik11 posted below) and there isn't one unless it's hidden away :P. have asked the landlady to ask the electrician who fitted the place.... i'm curious at this stage why they would bother going so far as to install the controller and then not follow through

Red Alert

You could try and trace the wires from the controller - if the sensor's not been connected at all there'll be two terminals not connected to anything. A multimeter should give you about 30k ohms across the sensor at about 10 degrees outside. Make sure you've completely isolated the power to the panel before you do this and don't unless you know what you're doing.

It could be fitted somewhere strange either like on a chimney.

jkforde

could this bundle of 5 wires hanging down beside the fusebox (I never gave them much thought before now) have been meant for the elusive sensor?! (sorry, didn't mean to hog this thread)

M cebee

prob alarm wires

arik11

Hello there.Night storage has been working perfectly for 3 months.Last night the system went on as usual at 23:00 sharp.I saw the red light next to the two heaters but neither the heaters nor the immersion system actually did anything, The heaters staid cold and the water did not heat.All fuses were up and ruining,As I said the red light showing the night time electricity is on was there.Any idea what could have caused this?The heaters are OK.They worked perfectly(waiting to see today what will happen)

arik11

As strange as it sounds:We found out that the thermostats of both Creda Heaters was stuck.The electrician released it with his screwdriver.

RoundyMooney

Either stuck, or the thermal cutouts (they stop the things overheating) had popped.

It does happen that the stats stick (these are seperate) from time to time as well. I had to do it on two panel heaters in my aunts new apartment only last week.

On another note, any one else think we need a storage heating sticky, for all these people who rent apartments, and who may not be aware of the setup, or in some cases Irish installations in general?

I'll happily write one up, and Stoner or whoever can add edits as needed if anyone else wants to jump in?

arik11

Hi.yes . A storage heating sticky with "if so... then do that... " might be nice

arik11

Hi. I recall many have been looking for this Devireg 710-2 manual. so here it is.
Have a nice winter.

drsg

Hi Guys! hoping someone can help me out here. I am from Canada, and have recently moved to ireland where heating and water set up is very different. I have no idea how to set everything up so that I am using heat and water in the most efficient way.

I understand the concept of the heating, but overall I have no idea what I am doing. In my apartment I have a panel at the front door with a timer, and a switch that says water off/timed and knob for boost. Next to that panel is another switch that has a light if it is turned on (currently turned off).

In my living room, I have a storage heater, it has an input and output dial, a dial with numbers along the right side and a switch, as well as two switches next door to it. One of these two switches has a light, the other does not (one with light is on, the other if off)

in my bedrooms, the heaters are different. I dont see any input or output switches. Instead they have a dial with numbers, a 24 hour clock, and switch for either manual or auto. Next to the panel there is also a switch with a light (currently turned off).

Can someone please explain the switches and particularly the heaters with the auto/manual? Private message or reply here is great. I have no hot water right now becasue I am too afraid of the bill when not using peak hours and have no idea how to use panel next to my front door or in the bedrooms. Please help!!!

thank you!

Quadrature

They're a bit of a mystery to me too! I've avoided anywhere with storage heating like the plague! They're a really cheap and nasty way that buy-to-let landlords or low end property developers fit out generally budget apartments or cheap retrofits of heating to old buildings. You'll rarely find them in a house as they're inflexible, expensive to run, very unresponsive to changing weather (24 hours to respond) and excessively complicated.

The input dial is how much heat the unit charges with and the output dial basically controls dampers that control the rate the air exits the heater.

I just set them in one place by trial end error. Never quite figured it out though.

If you've two sets of switches at most heaters, they probably have day-rate and night rate. So, if you switch on during the day it's using full rate power to boost the stored heat in the bricks inside.

One switch will only work off peak as there's a central timer for the whole house that automatically turns on the heaters to charge them at night.

The bedroom panels sound like they're just electric heaters with timers. You're supposed to just set the time clock to heat when you want heat. If used on-peak, it'll be charged at full peak rate. You usually just move the segments in / out to set on/off periods much like the plug-in timers of the same era.

As for the hot water, it's supposed to be set to heat off peak and you can boost it at full rate power during the day if it runs out.

Assuming you've an electric shower, that's most likely instantaneous so it just heats the water as you use it at whatever rate electricity is valid for that time of day.

If you post photos of the various dials / controllers and also the electrical panel (where the circuit breakers are) it might help to identify how to set things.
( or post the make and model of the timers as I see you can't post pics until you've made 50 posts on boards.ie to avoid spambot accounts)

drsg

Quadrature wrote: »

They're a bit of a mystery to me too! I've avoided anywhere with storage heating like the plague! They're a really cheap and nasty way that buy-to-let landlords or low end property developers fit out generally budget apartments or cheap retrofits of heating to old buildings. You'll rarely find them in a house as they're inflexible, expensive to run, very unresponsive to changing weather (24 hours to respond) and excessively complicated.

The input dial is how much heat the unit charges with and the output dial basically controls dampers that control the rate the air exits the heater.

I just set them in one place by trial end error. Never quite figured it out though.

If you've two sets of switches at most heaters, they probably have day-rate and night rate. So, if you switch on during the day it's using full rate power to boost the stored heat in the bricks inside.

One switch will only work off peak as there's a central timer for the whole house that automatically turns on the heaters to charge them at night.

The bedroom panels sound like they're just electric heaters with timers. You're supposed to just set the time clock to heat when you want heat. If used on-peak, it'll be charged at full peak rate. You usually just move the segments in / out to set on/off periods much like the plug-in timers of the same era.

As for the hot water, it's supposed to be set to heat off peak and you can boost it at full rate power during the day if it runs out.

Assuming you've an electric shower, that's most likely instantaneous so it just heats the water as you use it at whatever rate electricity is valid for that time of day.

If you post photos of the various dials / controllers and also the electrical panel (where the circuit breakers are) it might help to identify how to set things.

Hi Quadrature, thank you for replying so quickly!! I hope you dont mind answering a few more questions!

I think my major problem is I dont quite understand which switches should be on and which should be off.

For instance, in the bedroom, the switch next to the heater, should that always be on if I want heat, or does it depend on my setting of manual vs auto?

Same with the switch next to my water heater panel, should that be on to have hot water? If I turn the switch on then I get the stored up hot water. but if I want extra hot water, I would boost it (and get charged the extra rate?) I want to make sure If I turn on these switches they will only be for night rate and not turning on extra heating for day rate.

The storage heater in my living room has three switches technically, which ones should be on so that it stores heat at the nightly rate and not the day rate?

Thank you!!

Quadrature

The panels in the bedrooms are just hardwired electric heaters. The manual / auto most likely just means "on" vs "timed" where it will be turned on/off by the time clock on the front of the heater itself. You will need to use these during peak rates at times.

The water heating, I can't really advise on without posting the model of the time clock as there were lots of different models uses by different installers in different eras.

It would normally be programmed to switch on when the off-peak rate begins. It is controlled by a thermostat too, so once the tank's at temperature it will stop heating and just maintain the heat so, it's not all that expensive to run (assuming it's well insulated). Some very old water heaters were very primitively insulated and wasted loads of heat.

The boost switch just switched the water heating on regardless of what the time is. I'm not sure how long for.

Also find your power meter. Your landlord should have shown you this and if not, ask to be shown it ASAP. Check the 24 hour clock is accurate. Some older ones can be way out of whack and end up charging peak rates at off peak times. This applies more if it's an old installation - these things can be ticking away for 40 years...

Night rate Times :

11pm until 8am - winter time
12am until 9am - summer time.

Bear in mind too this also applies to all your regular outlets. So if you're running for dishwasher or dryer, it's half price at night.

This is why a lot of European appliances have a delay-start timer built in. So, you can set your dryer to start your dryer at say 6am to finish at 8 etc etc