Would you consider jumping ship to another institute if you fail fae?

wgk

Just wondering on foot of the fae exams in the last week, how many people would SERIOUSLY consider jumping ship to another institute to gain qualification

ahtfulal

wgk wrote: »

Just wondering on foot of the fae exams in the last week, how many people would SERIOUSLY consider jumping ship to another institute to gain qualification

I would pursue another career before even considering to do these exmas again. A complete injustice!

Sand Wedge

Wouldn't recommend jumping to ACCA at this stage anyway as apart from not knowing what exemptions you would get, ACCA are not open book exams like ACA.

Maybe a switch to CPA may help!

Shurwhynot

Sand Wedge wrote: »

Wouldn't recommend jumping to ACCA at this stage anyway as apart from not knowing what exemptions you would get, ACCA are not open book exams like ACA.

Maybe a switch to CPA may help!

The way the CPA finals have been lately, i would recommend not jumping ship to CPA.

The April and August 2010 exams in Tax were extremely extremely tough, almost wish that open book had never been brought in. Plus the 4 strikes and you're out rule is absolutely ridiculous and has made me regret ever joining CPA

macannrb

As like others I will be finding out in November if I have passed the FAEs. I hope for the best but I'm also planing for the worst. If I fail I will try the FAEs again in 12 months time, but I will also be enrolling on ACCA and get started on their system. In fact I'm considering starting the ACCA system before I get the results if it means getting qualified faster.

scouser82

The CAI would want to be very very careful right now. These high failure rates (and general piss taking) could backfire on them spectacularly!!

MrMatisse

Sand Wedge wrote: »

Wouldn't recommend jumping to ACCA at this stage anyway as apart from not knowing what exemptions you would get, ACCA are not open book exams like ACA.

Maybe a switch to CPA may help!

You would have 7 papers to do. whether or not you pass fae is irrelevant

MrMatisse

macannrb wrote: »

As like others I will be finding out in November if I have passed the FAEs. I hope for the best but I'm also planing for the worst. If I fail I will try the FAEs again in 12 months time, but I will also be enrolling on ACCA and get started on their system. In fact I'm considering starting the ACCA system before I get the results if it means getting qualified faster.

With ACCA you could be qualified in June. If you enrol by Oct 15

Pisco Sour

Really-Stressed wrote: »

You would have 7 papers to do. whether or not you pass fae is irrelevant

I think its just 6 exams. All 5 final exams and 1 from the ACCA equivalent of CAP 2, whatever it is called!

MrMatisse

04072511 wrote: »

I think its just 6 exams. All 5 final exams and 1 from the ACCA equivalent of CAP 2, whatever it is called!

Nah ya gotta do F1 and F4 and then the last 5....

ahtfulal

Really-Stressed wrote: »

Nah ya gotta do F1 and F4 and then the last 5....

I don't think its any more than 3 because I know someone who moved after failing cap 1's and had only 5 ta do so ya would imagine having passed cap 2's it would be less.

MrMatisse

ahtfulal wrote: »

I don't think its any more than 3 because I know someone who moved after failing cap 1's and had only 5 ta do so ya would imagine having passed cap 2's it would be less.

seems to be 7 from the acca website

https://portal.accaglobal.com/accrweb/faces/page/public/accreditations/enquiry/awards/EnqAwardsTable.jspx?_afPfm=-iswrc45yo

ari101

Really-Stressed wrote: »

With ACCA you could be qualified in June. If you enrol by Oct 15

The Oct 15th deadline is only for exam entry - additionally (unless ACCA agree to make an exception) you would need to be a member by Aug 15th (as well as entering for exams by Oct 15th) to sit exams in December, then one can do up to 4 exams per sitting there after. Hence if you had 7 to do, unless you made the August 15th membership deadline, you wouldn't be eligible to sit exams until June 2011 so it would take a minimum of 18 mths til results in Feb 2012 to qualify.

macannrb

ari101 wrote: »

The Oct 15th deadline is only for exam entry - additionally (unless ACCA agree to make an exception) you would need to be a member by Aug 15th (as well as entering for exams by Oct 15th) to sit exams in December, then one can do up to 4 exams per sitting there after. Hence if you had 7 to do, unless you made the August 15th membership deadline, you wouldn't be eligible to sit exams until June 2011 so it would take a minimum of 18 mths til results in Feb 2012 to qualify.

If a large number want to switch to the ACCA exams they might let us late register. And they certainly might be willing to accomodate defectors from ACA. There's no doubt that it would be good publicity for them

Jim2007

macannrb wrote: »

If a large number want to switch to the ACCA exams they might let us late register. And they certainly might be willing to accomodate defectors from ACA. There's no doubt that it would be good publicity for them

I doubt that taking on a large number of failed students could be seen as good publicity!

Jim

Jim2007

It's been over 20 years ago since I sat the FAE, but I can tell you that the debate was the same then as now - high failure rates and should one switch to another institute..... so nothing has changed!

As some one who had to repeat I would make a couple of observations:

Both the ICA and the ACCA have high exam standards, if they did not they would loose the confidence of the public, the only difference may be the approach. Now it may well be that a different approach will help some students, but expecting that one set of exams is easier than another is not realistic....

And need I state the obvious - switching institutes is no guarantee that you'll find it easier on the other side....

If you've gotten this far - sitting the FAE, then it is reasonable to assume that you have the brains and the ability to pass the FAE, so the most likely cause for failure is lack of preparation!

Interestingly enough, failure rates always seems to go up during an economic down turn and I think the main reason is that more unprepared candidates take the exams. You've got many part-qualifieds who fear for their jobs and will have bash once again, trainees who have not worked as much over time as in the good times and so have less study leave, other trainees who have had to work more overtime and thus get less study leave.. and so on.

So if you have been unfortunate this time around, I would strongly recommend that you take a good luck at your study technique and make sure that you are giving yourself a fair chance at passing the exams.

A final observation I would make is that switching institutes before the finals is not going to look good on a resume. It is much easier explaining having to repeat an exam due to work pressure than trying to explain away what will be perceived as "I could not pass the XYZ institutes exams so I switched to the ABC institute"

Good luck with that,

Jim

Pisco Sour

Jim2007 wrote: »

It's been over 20 years ago since I sat the FAE, but I can tell you that the debate was the same then as now - high failure rates and should one switch to another institute..... so nothing has changed!

As some one who had to repeat I would make a couple of observations:

Both the ICA and the ACCA have high exam standards, if they did not they would loose the confidence of the public, the only difference may be the approach. Now it may well be that a different approach will help some students, but expecting that one set of exams is easier than another is not realistic....

And need I state the obvious - switching institutes is no guarantee that you'll find it easier on the other side....

If you've gotten this far - sitting the FAE, then it is reasonable to assume that you have the brains and the ability to pass the FAE, so the most likely cause for failure is lack of preparation!

Interestingly enough, failure rates always seems to go up during an economic down turn and I think the main reason is that more unprepared candidates take the exams. You've got many part-qualifieds who fear for their jobs and will have bash once again, trainees who have not worked as much over time as in the good times and so have less study leave, other trainees who have had to work more overtime and thus get less study leave.. and so on.

So if you have been unfortunate this time around, I would strongly recommend that you take a good luck at your study technique and make sure that you are giving yourself a fair chance at passing the exams.

A final observation I would make is that switching institutes before the finals is not going to look good on a resume. It is much easier explaining having to repeat an exam due to work pressure than trying to explain away what will be perceived as "I could not pass the XYZ institutes exams so I switched to the ABC institute"

Good luck with that,

Jim

Jim,

While I appreciate that you mean well, you are so far off the mark at times. Are you aware of how the new FAE course is examined? Are you aware that you cant prepare for half the stuff that comes up in these exams? Are you aware that practically every student had to spend half their time waffling and making up stuff off the top of their heads because the questions (oh wait, there are no questions!) were so vague and unclear, and did not give students the opportunity to showcase what they know (which is what a fair examination should be all about I thought, or so I was always told anyway!!). The student who makes up the best crap on the spot is the one who will pass these exams, not the one who studied the best. These exams are different to the ones you sat 20 years ago.

Finally, you said nothing has changed since when you sat the exams. Are you aware that 77% of people passed the FAE's last year, and over 70% every year for the last number of years? Maybe we are back to the pass rates of the 80's, but things had certainly changed a lot between then and now.

macannrb

I would agree with some of what you are saying Jim and I think this thread is part of a reaction against the changes the ICAI made to the syllabus, marking structure and exam format this year (FAEs). Much of this will probably disapate if people pass the first sitting of the new FAEs.

However the gripe that most current students have is not against the low pass rates but the fairness of the exam.

Jim2007 wrote: »

If you've gotten this far - sitting the FAE, then it is reasonable to assume that you have the brains and the ability to pass the FAE, so the most likely cause for failure is lack of preparation!

So if you have been unfortunate this time around, I would strongly recommend that you take a good luck at your study technique and make sure that you are giving yourself a fair chance at passing the exams.

Many people that I have talked to after the exams felt that all the study and hard work they put in had little effect. The same people have achieved very highly in tough college degrees and in CAP1 and CAP2 so I don't doubt their study techniques, hard work or preperation.

Jim2007 wrote: »

I doubt that taking on a large number of failed students could be seen as good publicity!

Jim

Technically we haven't failed yet

Jim2007

04072511 wrote: »

Are you aware that you cant prepare for half the stuff that comes up in these exams? Are you aware that practically every student had to spend half their time waffling and making up stuff off the top of their heads because the questions (oh wait, there are no questions!) were so vague and unclear, and did not give students the opportunity to showcase what they know (which is what a fair examination should be all about I thought, or so I was always told anyway!!). The student who makes up the best crap on the spot is the one who will pass these exams, not the one who studied the best. These exams are different to the ones you sat 20 years ago.

macannrb wrote: »

Many people that I have talked to after the exams felt that all the study and hard work they put in had little effect. The same people have achieved very highly in tough college degrees and in CAP1 and CAP2 so I don't doubt their study techniques, hard work or preperation.

In my day the FAE was all about application of knowledge, rather than the demonstration of lets call it "book learning". We were well warned by the trainers that the techniques that got us that far would not be enough to pass the FAE! From what I recall it was all about clearly identifying the assumptions you were making in the answers, indicating areas were additional information was needed to reach a definitive answer and the practical application of theory rather than simply stating it. Thus for example understanding Revenue practice would get you further than simply stating tax law and so on.

Is it really that different today?

Jim.

macannrb

Jim2007 wrote: »

In my day the FAE was all about application of knowledge, rather than the demonstration of lets call it "book learning". We were well warned by the trainers that the techniques that got us that far would not be enough to pass the FAE! From what I recall it was all about clearly identifying the assumptions you were making in the answers, indicating areas were additional information was needed to reach a definitive answer and the practical application of theory rather than simply stating it. Thus for example understanding Revenue practice would get you further than simply stating tax law and so on.

Is it really that different today?

Jim.

They still have that, but that's more CAP2 (or the old prof3)

The new system is based on a Canadian ACA format.

They give a vague case study. Then they expect you to figure out what the questions in it are. Then you have to use a complicated formula to work out how long to spend on each question (if you spot them, which is a big if). Then we apply the knowledge as you have suggested above. And then there's a marking scheme that has similar complexity to triple differentiation.

In the old system there was 4 papers/ subjects. If you pass one then you could carry it forward and not have to do it again.

In the new system there are general subjects all mixed into a two day exam. If you fail the two day exam you have to repeat all six. Financial reporting isn't even a subject area, only 40% of one of the general subjects.

Its very different then it was a year ago, hence why the idea of a "normal" exam format of the ACCA is becoming appealing

Pisco Sour

macannrb wrote: »

They still have that, but that's more CAP2 (or the old prof3)

The new system is based on a Canadian ACA format.

They give a vague case study. Then they expect you to figure out what the questions in it are. Then you have to use a complicated formula to work out how long to spend on each question (if you spot them, which is a big if). Then we apply the knowledge as you have suggested above. And then there's a marking scheme that has similar complexity to triple differentiation.

In the old system there was 4 papers/ subjects. If you pass one then you could carry it forward and not have to do it again.

In the new system there are general subjects all mixed into a two day exam. If you fail the two day exam you have to repeat all six. Financial reporting isn't even a subject area, only 40% of one of the general subjects.

Its very different then it was a year ago, hence why the idea of a "normal" exam format of the ACCA is becoming appealing

+1 to this. Right on the money.

It never ceases to amaze me that people come onto a thread and make clueless comments before doing any sort of research whatsoever.

macannrb

Well to be fair when you say exams, people take for granted simple things like questions being written down, marks beside the questions and a percentage at the end of it all

That makes me wonder is if no one else in Ireland seems to have this type of exam format when has the Institute gained the monopoly on intelligence....

DolphinTales

Jim

This is no place for balanced and reasonable views......you'll be eaten alive or accused of being from the institute. Only post if you want to chain yourself to the railings of the institute or better still start a face book group.......why? Because the exams are really hard and we just don't like that!

Seriously though, there were a lot of really obvious indicators in the exam and granted a few vague ones but did they not say that judgement is part of the examination? So it's not correct to imply there were no clear indicators. And in fairness to the institute, they have shown a willingness to listen to student grievances after both the FAE and CAP2 exams last year so in my opinion people should submit their genuine feedback and deal with the results when the come out. If there are issues after that then appeal or whatever.

Many of the people I spoke to were frustrated afterwards but they had also worked solidly for the duration of the exams & given that by and large there was nothing overly complicated (except the valuation q) I'd say there'll be a high enough pass rate. I was really pi**ed off after the exams but I was just focussing on the mistakes I'd made, looking back now I'd say the core should be ok. Made a balls of the audit though and I'd be blaming myself more than the examiner, even though I'd be critical of the paper too.

Also, I thought the main thrust of the new course was so as people couldn't prepare the the answer and then just write it out in the exam. The point being that judgement is a huge part of it. Therefore the objective is for the student to show what the know in the context of judging a scenario in a highly pressurised environment. That has to be a good thing in the overall context of the quality of the qualification, albeit making it harder to pass maybe.

I was under the impression that Fin Reporting was 60-70% of the performance management - from the competency statement.

CIMA also use the case study approach for their finals as far as I know.

By the way, I don't work for the institute, the above is just my opinion. Lampoon if you wish.

cunning stunts

"Yesterday was a shambles as well. Very concerned with BL(messed up the Strategic Plan) and get the feeling Fin Rep was too simple (by me) to be true. As for the valuation question. . Abysmal. But to be honest I don't think it's unreasonable for a mental indicator to turn up in Professional Exams but in the circumstances I thought it might've come up in Fin Rep where there'd be more scope to recover.

The time pressure was incredible. Was writing/scribbling from start to finish each day.

Haven't been as pi**ed off after an exam since......CAP 2 last year. "

J**us Dolphin tales youve really changed your tune in 4 days!! Wish I could say the same myself and hope your as positive about everything when the results come out!!

DolphinTales

cunning stunts wrote: »

"Yesterday was a shambles as well. Very concerned with BL(messed up the Strategic Plan) and get the feeling Fin Rep was too simple (by me) to be true. As for the valuation question. . Abysmal. But to be honest I don't think it's unreasonable for a mental indicator to turn up in Professional Exams but in the circumstances I thought it might've come up in Fin Rep where there'd be more scope to recover.

The time pressure was incredible. Was writing/scribbling from start to finish each day.

Haven't been as pi**ed off after an exam since......CAP 2 last year. "

J**us Dolphin tales youve really changed your tune in 4 days!! Wish I could say the same myself and hope your as positive about everything when the results come out!!

Yeah to be fair I have. Red mist had set in big time but feel better about it now having given it a bit more thought. Was really fc*kin annoyed with myself about audit but felt the paper was a bit unfair too.

I find when I come out of those exams (FAE & CAP2) that I'd be really pi**ed off and feel like I haven't done as much as I wanted but s'pose that's the way its meant to be. The time pressure is horrendous. I seriously think that a high % (like 60+) of people will pass the core, anyone that has got this far is bright enough and has worked relatively hard so hopefully that's what'll happen. May aswell think that way anyway.

Maybe there'll be more red mist on the 19th.....

djk1000

Where can I get a look at the FAE papers? Or if anyone has a mock exam they want to put up.

I'm ACCA btw.

Jim2007

DolphinTales wrote: »

you'll be eaten alive or accused of being from the institute.

There is no danger of me being mistaken for an accountant, my work attire usually consists of runners, jeans and a T-shirt - I'm more likely to be mistaken for someone who works in the mail room, truth be told I have not practiced accounting since the day I finished my training contract

The funny thing is that most of the people who have been jumping up and down on the thread have only confirmed my point - lack of technique, the exam is different, not like any think they've seen before..... so the real question is how have they changed their approach to deal with the new situation???

Good luck with that,

Jim

Pisco Sour

Jim2007 wrote: »

There is no danger of me being mistaken for an accountant, my work attire usually consists of runners, jeans and a T-shirt - I'm more likely to be mistaken for someone who works in the mail room, truth be told I have not practiced accounting since the day I finished my training contract

Then why are you bothering to post your jibberish on here?

Have a read of this attachment will ya!!

Jim2007

04072511 wrote: »

Then why are you bothering to post your jibberish on here?

Most of the chartered accountants I know, do not practice - meaning that they are not involved in areas such as audit, taxation, accounting and so on. But that does not mean that it is not important to us, the fact is that FCA/ACA is a valuable asset to have in business and so we attend CPE course, keep up to date with the reading, and generally keep in contact.

Jim.

macannrb

I have heard through the rumour mill that one of the big firms are considering pulling out of ACA and moving over to ACCA and that they are waiting for results of the FAEs to decide.

Appearantly its down to the relative size of the fees between the two and the bad press their trainees are giving the new exam style.

@ DJK, you should read the mocks and the solutions attached

@ Jim, I think you have every right to post as the Qualification is a very valuable asset as you say in later life. However you should try to sit the exam without looking at the solution. Don't worry about not studying most students sitting the exam said afterwards that all the study made little difference. Also I think you said that exam technique was what needed altering, so perhaps you could let us know what you suggest.

Jim2007

Hi There,

Unfortunately I don't have much time for this at present as I'm in the middle of the usual end of year stuff - unlike the financial year end, IT year end projects usually must go live by say mid November, so a very quick response:

On reading the exam paper, my first reactions were that you'd definitely need more than a good knowledge of the accounting topics to pass this one. You'd need a basic understanding of the common issues in running a business, either from training in business or time spend in a business advisory role in practice. You'd also need to broaden your reading list to include stuff like the HBR, BusinessWeek and so on...

In the light of the new syllabus for the FAE, I would say that the exam and it's suggested solution were reasonable. But having said that I would also acknowledge that it is a big change in gear from what went before it and I can well see why people would have in adjusting to these new demands in a short period.

In terms on technique, the obvious one is to do lots of case studies, not just accounting ones, but Marketing, HR, Operations Management and so on. In addition I would suggest two things:
- broaden your reading material: definitely add the HBR and BusinessWeek to your reading list
- take the time to learn about your clients business, don't just do the audit or the accounts or whatever, take the tour and learn about the total business, not just the accounting issues

Now that I have taken some time to look into this, I must say that I well come the change. As someone who has spend most of my working life outside of practice, I hope that this change will start to produce more rounded professionals.

Good luck with that,

Jim.