overseas voting for Ireland

charlemont

i understand Ireland does not have overseas voting.. we need it now more than ever as the people who could shape our future are emigrating at a rapid pace..

Cavehill Red

Why should people who choose to live somewhere else have a say in shaping the political future of this country?

Stinicker

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Why should people who choose to live somewhere else have a say in shaping the political future of this country?

That is fairly presumptuous to be honest, I don't think alot of people are emigrating for "the craic". Economic necessity is now forcing thousands of Irish people to leave. The reason because of this is we have an inept and corrupt Government in place. All Irish people should be allowed to vote in our elections irregardless of their global location.

Alot of the Irish people leaving now are leaving with the intent of making some money and hoping to return home if we get a new government and get our country back on track. Thousands of Irish returned to Ireland between 1996>2007 having left Ireland in the seventies and eighties mainly for America. They brought a lot of money and new ideas and a fresh badly wanted wave of talent and a entrepreneurial spirit with them from their time as ex-pats.

This time it is different and Australia, Canada and New Zealand are the ports of call and I am not so sure if as many will want to return, they saw what happened here and how our government not only threw away prosperity but went on to break the country and destroy the next ten years on top of that. Alot of these economic migrants will lay down roots and marry out there, the new Aussie and Kiwi Irish will be keepers due to distance and the excellent quality of life out there.

Our people must have a say in how the country is ran if they are to ever hope to return. A large ex patriot voting block would also help ensure that Fianna Fail vanishes as a political party by continuously voting against them as the party that caused their exile to begin with.

Cavehill Red

Were they evicted from the country at gunpoint or something?
If not, they chose to go, for reasons as various and individual as they are.
I don't see why someone can live in Bondi or California and seek to elect officials to run a country they abandoned.
Let them vote where they live. Let them make decisions that affect their place of residence. And let those who live here do likewise.

jank

Totally agree with this. Americans, French, Australians are just to name a few that can vote when abroad. Many a hundred thousand people had to leave these green shores not out of choice but out of necessity and survival.

Do you honestly think all those people in OZ and NZ and elsewhere would still vote for the numpty FF'ers that fix the local pot hole and go to all the funerals? Hell no...

Tristram

It's annoying not being able to vote alright but I guess I understand the logic behind it.

murphaph

Germans can also vote abroad quite easily. Ireland is in a minority in Europe with this I would say.

I too favour voting like this. I now live in Germany but still pay taxes in Ireland. Surely I should have some say about how those taxes are disbursed. I can't vote in Germany (apart from European and local elections). It would help Ireland IMO by removing the "parochial" element of the vote. Ex-pats are more likely to look at Ireland as a whole rather than their local parish.

dan_d

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Were they evicted from the country at gunpoint or something?
If not, they chose to go, for reasons as various and individual as they are.
I don't see why someone can live in Bondi or California and seek to elect officials to run a country they abandoned.
Let them vote where they live. Let them make decisions that affect their place of residence. And let those who live here do likewise.

By now - choose is the wrong word. Just spoke to another friend who's leaving this weekend. He's had no job for a year, has done odds and ends, tried his best and he's had an offer abroad. So he's taking it, because if he doesn't he and his fiancee will not be able to pay the bills. And he wants to save money for their wedding which is over a year away.

He's added to the long list of people I know of my age (27) that have had to leave. And not because of mortgages - simply because there's no work here, there's nothing for them to do, and they have lives too and want to work.And it's not Bondi or California or Thailand...it's NY, Vancouver,Asia, Dubai and the UK.And usually for jobs that pay less that what they would get here in their fields.

Having to leave is just not the same as choosing to leave.

The OP raises an excellent point. We must be in the minority at this, which is strange given how many of our people have emigrated in recent decades. They should certainly be given a vote - at some point we might actually like them to come back to this country, and they should be allowed help shape how it is run, how it might be improved enough for them to able to come back. Is there anything we can do to change the current situation?

Seth Brundle

Given the number of developers, etc. who have legged it leaving the mess behind here, I'd say that it won't be long before FF bring in overseas voting!

Cavehill Red

If they weren't deported, then they chose to leave.
So they no longer live in Ireland.
So they're not entitled to a vote.
They come back, they get a vote.
Simples.
The people living IN Ireland should be the only people who have a say over how Ireland is run.

Liam Byrne

murphaph wrote: »

Germans can also vote abroad quite easily. Ireland is in a minority in Europe with this I would say.

Second time hearing that phrase today. Someone should tell Dermot Ahern.

dan_d

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If they weren't deported, then they chose to leave.
So they no longer live in Ireland.
So they're not entitled to a vote.
They come back, they get a vote.
Simples.
The people living IN Ireland should be the only people who have a say over how Ireland is run.

Right.

I'll agree to disagree with you, and move on.

The numbers of Irish living abroad could skew the results - the way people abroad vote would have no direct impact on their day to day lives.

What constituency would they vote in?

If they want to vote here they should be liable to Irish taxes.

Saadyst

If you don't want them to vote from abroad, why not just go ahead and remove citizenship from them? Is the bond between a people and government based purely on the tax you currently provide, and where you live, regardless of past contributions?

That's a bit thick.

ardmacha

It's quite simple, you vote where you live. If you choose not to live here then you no longer vote. As for being forced to leave, nobody is forced to leave, some cannot find jobs but that reflects their choice of career as other skills remain in demand.

That said some overseas voting for the Seanad might be appropriate.

Brussels Sprout

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If they weren't deported, then they chose to leave.
So they no longer live in Ireland.
So they're not entitled to a vote.
They come back, they get a vote.
Simples.
The people living IN Ireland should be the only people who have a say over how Ireland is run.

I can see where you are coming from, however I have to disagree. I've left the country twice over the past three years to seek work. No, I wasn't deported or forced to leave at gunpoint. However, when the choice is to stay on the dole and stagnate or to give it a shot in another country where there is work then that's not much of a choice at all.
So, in a way those of us who have left have been forced to leave. We've been forced to leave due to the mismanagement of the economy by those in power. I am Irish. I will always be Irish and just because I had the initiative to get out and give it a try elsewhere shouldn't mean that I don't get a choice in choosing the next government in the country that I plan on returning to in the future.

Cavehill Red

Cavehill Red wrote: »

.
I don't see why someone can live in Bondi or California and seek to elect officials to run a country they abandoned.

GRRR :mad:

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The numbers of Irish living abroad could skew the results - the way people abroad vote would have no direct impact on their day to day lives.

hopefully it would skew the results, hopefully the direct impact would be that it would allow some to return to ireland to a land with better opportunities....quite a life changing impact

questionmark?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Were they evicted from the country at gunpoint or something?

Metphoricially speaking then yes. For example a fellow of 30 who decided to work for himself but now finds no work. The state isnt going to help him so what does he do live without money or go seeking work???

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If not, they chose to go, for reasons as various and individual as they are.

Like looking for the most basic need of work so they can afford to live, eat and pay a few bills!?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I don't see why someone can live in Bondi or California and seek to elect officials to run a country they abandoned.

No mention here of how so many people feel abandoned by the state. No money, no jobs but yet billions being pumped into things like Anglo!
In fact many would feel let down by those in charge.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Let them vote where they live. Let them make decisions that affect their place of residence. And let those who live here do likewise.

Are you supporting that when the Irish move to Oz they should vote over there in the national elections. Or maybe an american here should vote in an Irish referendum?


Your comment saying people "abandoned" this country, when in fact they are emigrating out of necessity is insulting and shows a distinct understanding of reality!

Cavehill Red

I don't care WHY they're emigrating. If they're living elsewhere, they have foresaken the right to a say in how where I live is run.
I've lived abroad myself at different times in a number of countries. And I fully accepted that since I wasn't living in Ireland I wasn't entitled to vote there.
If you want a vote, you get a vote where you live. If you want a vote in Ireland, then live in Ireland.
It is an erosion of the democratic mandate of those who do live here to have their votes diluted, augmented or even overruled by people who live elsewhere.
You'd think from some of the emotive responses here that I was insisting everyone who jumped on a plane be stripped of their citizenship. Rather, I'm suggesting that it is unfair on those of us who DO live in Ireland to have decisions about our futures decided by people who will not be affected by those decisions because they live somewhere else.

Edit: In answer to two questions put to me - the issue of Irish voting in Australia is a matter for Australia. I would support the rights of Irish people permanently resident in Australia to vote there.
As for Americans voting here, those who are resident are entitled to vote in a number of elections already, and EU citizens in most of our elections, and British citizens in nearly all of our votes, if they are resident here, and rightly so.
Only Presidential elections and constitutional referenda are restricted to Irish citizens.

Head The Wall

Well the people that did vote and have emigrated have also diluted your vote according to your narrow minded thinking.

It is also usually the case that only citizens of a country can vote, so all the people going to Canada, Australia, USA etc on visas don't have the right to vote. So you see you can't just vote where ever you live even though you pay taxes in that country.

As an Irish citizen you should have the right to vote for your country or are you saying all the other countries have got it wrong and you are correct

Cavehill Red

Head The Wall wrote: »

Well the people that did vote and have emigrated have also diluted your vote according to your narrow minded thinking.

Not at all. When they voted, they were resident. The state cannot function as thought police quizzing eligible voters on their intention to live out the term of a government in the country or not. Many people may not have the intention to leave when they cast their vote in any case.

Head The Wall wrote: »

It is also usually the case that only citizens of a country can vote, so all the people going to Canada, Australia, USA etc on visas don't have the right to vote. So you see you can't just vote where ever you live even though you pay taxes in that country.

Sovereign matter for those sovereign states. As an EU state, much of our suffrage is extended to fellow EU citizens resident in Ireland. And we have a long-standing arrangement with Britain regarding reciprocal voting rights.

Head The Wall wrote: »

As an Irish citizen you should have the right to vote for your country or are you saying all the other countries have got it wrong and you are correct

I'm saying you've got it wrong.
It's not an issue of citizenship but residence. A Polish person living in Dublin is much more affected by elections in Ireland than some Paddy on Bondi beach, and rightly should have a say in that whereas the lad in Australia should not.

questionmark?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm saying you've got it wrong.
It's not an issue of citizenship but residence. A Polish person living in Dublin is much more affected by elections in Ireland than some Paddy on Bondi beach, and rightly should have a say in that whereas the lad in Australia should not.

1. you refer to an irish person in oz as a paddy do you refer to Africans using the N word?

2. You presume that everyone that goes to Oz lives it up on Bondi beach???

3. Do you think that everybody that emigratres goes to Oz? Because they dont.

4. I tell you what go up to the next Polish person you see and tell them that they have abandoned their country and see what happens.

Cavehill Red

Grow up.

If you want to vote, live in the country.
If you want to live abroad, you accept the rules of that country. Those rules may not extend to letting you vote in their elections.
Not living in Ireland means you don't get to vote in ours.
It's not rocket science.

who the fug

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Grow up.

If you want to vote, live in the country.
If you want to live abroad, you accept the rules of that country. Those rules may not extend to letting you vote in their elections.
Not living in Ireland means you don't get to vote in ours.
It's not rocket science.

Yeah we know the score; once we leave we are non people, never existed and should never ever bother to ask the embassy for help

If we die by hanging ourselves in a New Jersey motel, could we please get rid of our passport, as we don’t want them awfully nice Americans to know that they have an illegal Paddy problem,

God that was so embarrassing like, Senator Kennedy and Mitchell making the Irish government like help its own citizens

Why are ye so afraid of us?

Cavehill Red

Once you leave, you're an ex-pat. You're no longer resident, so you don't get to vote on things that affect those of us who do live here.
Come back, and you'll get your vote immediately. It's that simple.
You can put your violin away now.

Head The Wall

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm saying you've got it wrong.
It's not an issue of citizenship but residence. A Polish person living in Dublin is much more affected by elections in Ireland than some Paddy on Bondi beach, and rightly should have a say in that whereas the lad in Australia should not.

No just because a person is in residence it does not mean they are a citizen and therefore they will not have a vote in most cases. You're trying to say that you can choose to go to any country and then just vote in that country because you live there. Residence does not guarantee you a vote no matter who you are or where you're from

Gandhi

There is no reason that a citizen living abroad should be allowed to vote in Ireland. I've been living in The States for almost fifteen years and I could barely tell you who the Taoiseach is, let alone the positions of the major parties on any of the serious issues. Mainly because anything the Irish government does just does not affect my day-to-day life. Plus, most importantly in my mind, I don't pay any taxes to fund it. Most of the lads I know who do keep up with the Irish news religiously (outside of the GAA scores) are the ones who went back home after a few years anyway.

For about five years I couldn't vote in either the US or Ireland and I was fine with that. Regardless of how the economy was, it was my decision to be a citizen in one country but a resident in another. Now that I have dual citizenship I can (and do) vote in US elections. If I ever move back home, where I have to obey the laws and pay the taxes set by the Irish government, I will be able to vote in Irish elections.

ClubOrangeKid

I think i would have to agree that if you have chosen to emigrate to another country to become a citizen of a different state then you give up your rights to help shape the way OUR country is run during your absence.. Also i'm starting a blog and would very much appreciate if you could try and circulate it. http /wellthatsirritating.blogspot.com/

Cavehill Red

Head The Wall wrote: »

No just because a person is in residence it does not mean they are a citizen and therefore they will not have a vote in most cases. You're trying to say that you can choose to go to any country and then just vote in that country because you live there. Residence does not guarantee you a vote no matter who you are or where you're from

I'm not saying that at all. I said it's a sovereign issue for sovereign states as to who they permit to vote. If you want a vote where you live, take it up with that country.
And I covered this issue of voting eligibility already.
Residence is the primary requirement for voting.
Depending on whether you are an Irish, British, EU or other citizen, you will have varying voting rights. Only Presidential elections and constitutional referenda are restricted to Irish citizens.

questionmark?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Grow up.

If you want to vote, live in the country.
If you want to live abroad, you accept the rules of that country. Those rules may not extend to letting you vote in their elections.
Not living in Ireland means you don't get to vote in ours.
It's not rocket science.

I'm well grown up thanks very much. That is why i take offense to what i regard as a racist comment. Wheter your Irish or not using the term some paddy on bondi beach isn't acceptable.

I and most others at least understand why people have to emigrate for work. Your statements about people abandoning their countrys is truely insulting and it is you that needs to grow up.

I'm bored with you and i will leave you to your narrow minded views.

Cavehill Red

questionmark? wrote: »

I'm well grown up thanks very much. That is why i take offense to what i regard as a racist comment. Wheter your Irish or not using the term some paddy on bondi beach isn't acceptable.

To you. Most other people have a better sense of perspective.

questionmark? wrote: »

I and most others at least understand why people have to emigrate for work. Your statements about people abandoning their countrys is truely insulting and it is you that needs to grow up.

They weren't deported at gunpoint. They chose to go. They did so knowing that they would relinquish their ability to vote in Ireland when they were no longer in Ireland.
Denying them the vote because they no longer live here is not the equivalent of driving them to suicide in New Jersey garrets, no matter what you might think.

questionmark? wrote: »

I'm bored with you and i will leave you to your narrow minded views.

You're highly amusing.
You should travel a bit, you know. It might broaden your horizons a bit and help remove those chips from your shoulder.

Brussels Sprout

Gandhi wrote: »

There is no reason that a citizen living abroad should be allowed to vote in Ireland. I've been living in The States for almost fifteen years and I could barely tell you who the Taoiseach is, let alone the positions of the major parties on any of the serious issues. Mainly because anything the Irish government does just does not affect my day-to-day life. Plus, most importantly in my mind, I don't pay any taxes to fund it. Most of the lads I know who do keep up with the Irish news religiously (outside of the GAA scores) are the ones who went back home after a few years anyway.

Exactly! If you all had the option to vote you most likely would not have and your friends most likely would have since they had more of an interest in coming back and hence more of a stake in the matter.

The vast majority of ex-pats probably wouldn't vote considering that huge numbers of people who live in Ireland don't vote as it is. However I think that people who are interested in the affairs of the country and who might come back to live there should be given the option of voting

charlemont

its always been a fianna fail policy to use emigration as a means to stay in power so its in the interests of forward minded individuals to have overseas voting ..otherwise the same families and sheep will continue to rape this country, its also a question of democracy, our politicians talk about our diaspora but they dont actually treat them as equal citizens by denying them the vote..

steamengine

charlemont wrote: »

its always been a fianna fail policy to use emigration as a means to stay in power so its in the interests of forward minded individuals to have overseas voting ..otherwise the same families and sheep will continue to rape this country, its also a question of democracy, our politicians talk about our diaspora but they dont actually treat them as equal citizens by denying them the vote..

It would be interesting to find out just how many First Generation Irish people are world wide. Back in the sixties there were reckoned to be 1 million FGI in Britain alone. Recently I heard that the diaspora amounted to 40 million world wide, obviously this figure relates to emigration over a few generations.

If due to economic reasons these FGI emigrated then why shouldn't they have the vote?

And why should the smug 'stay at home' middle classes seek to deprive them of that right?

Gandhi

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Exactly! If you all had the option to vote you most likely would not have and your friends most likely would have since they had more of an interest in coming back and hence more of a stake in the matter.

The vast majority of ex-pats probably wouldn't vote considering that huge numbers of people who live in Ireland don't vote as it is. However I think that people who are interested in the affairs of the country and who might come back to live there should be given the option of voting

While I see your logic, the problem is implementation. How do you decide who is going to come back and who is not? You could maybe have a grace period of a year or two, and decide if someone hasn't come back within that time, they have lost touch. And how would people vote? Would the government send out absentee ballots? A lot of people would just tick any box and send it back. Not that people don't do that in a polling booth anyway.

The fact remains that if I vote for Politician X, I don't have to obey the laws he passes (except for the few weeks I am home per year) and I don't have to pay the taxes he levies. Of course you can say that I will have to do those things as soon as I come back, but that brings us right back to the question of how do you know who is coming back or not?

murphaph

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Grow up.

If you want to vote, live in the country.
If you want to live abroad, you accept the rules of that country. Those rules may not extend to letting you vote in their elections.
Not living in Ireland means you don't get to vote in ours.
It's not rocket science.

So you'd be happy for the 100k polish in Ireland to vote in GENERAL ELECTIONS (not mickey mouse ones)? I know I would, we might get away from the civil war b0llox once and for all.

Cavehill Red

They live here. A general election affects them as residents a damn sight more than it does someone with an Irish passport thousands of miles from these shores.
I'm not opposed on principle to EU citizens voting in general elections in other EU countries where they are permanently resident.

Brussels Sprout

Gandhi wrote: »

While I see your logic, the problem is implementation. How do you decide who is going to come back and who is not? You could maybe have a grace period of a year or two, and decide if someone hasn't come back within that time, they have lost touch. And how would people vote? Would the government send out absentee ballots? A lot of people would just tick any box and send it back. Not that people don't do that in a polling booth anyway.

I wouldn't see implementation as an issue. If you're worried about people voting who have no intention of coming back then I think that this would be a very small minority.

The way I would have it is that you would have to apply through your nearest embassy (in person preferably). This would mean that you'd have to do a bit of work and so this would rule out a lot of the casual voters that you are worried about.

jank

charlemont wrote: »

its always been a fianna fail policy to use emigration as a means to stay in power so its in the interests of forward minded individuals to have overseas voting ..otherwise the same families and sheep will continue to rape this country, its also a question of democracy, our politicians talk about our diaspora but they dont actually treat them as equal citizens by denying them the vote..

This + 1.

I don't understand why its such an issue as most other western democracies provide this option. Cavehill Red sounds like he is reading from the FF policy book. I am sure most people would actually favour this. Maybe we should have a poll!

femur61

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Why should people who choose to live somewhere else have a say in shaping the political future of this country?

What future? I had to emigrate in the 80's, now it looks like my children if they want any sort of a job will have to do the same.

murphaph

Cavehill Red wrote: »

They live here. A general election affects them as residents a damn sight more than it does someone with an Irish passport thousands of miles from these shores.
I'm not opposed on principle to EU citizens voting in general elections in other EU countries where they are permanently resident.

And non-EU citizens? They live there too, and pay taxes there (like me).

Why is it that certain Irish citizens DO get the right to vote from abroad. These include Irish embassy staff, members of the armed forces and the Gardai. So if I work in the private sector and my job takes me away with work a lot, I lose the right to vote because I am not personally present in Ireland on the day of the general election, heck, even if I am my 2 weeks holidays in Spain I am disenfranchised of my vote, so why the inequality for some Irish citizens and not for others.

They should at least introduce postal voting for people who are temporarily out of the country. They have it for disabled people afterall so the systems are in place, just needs expanding.

Head The Wall

Cavehill Red wrote: »

They weren't deported at gunpoint.

Please do tell us how an Irish citizen can get deported from here. I really would love to know how that happens.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

You should travel a bit, you know. It might broaden your horizons a bit and help remove those chips from your shoulder.

Aren't you the big man that knows everything, yes indeed. :rolleyes:

You seem to be the one that has a chip on your shoulder about people voting

charlemont

Head The Wall wrote: »

Please do tell us how an Irish citizen can get deported from here. I really would love to know how that happens.



Aren't you the big man that knows everything, yes indeed. :rolleyes:

You seem to be the one that has a chip on your shoulder about people voting

probably wants everyone to only vote for 1 party , actually a one party state would probably suit him, take a guess which party that would be....

Welease

I always seem to be going against the grain.. but hey

Having lived abroad for 20 years (of 39... so most of my working life), I wouldn't be in favour of overseas voting, unless that person paid taxes in Ireland..

(would it kill me if it was available? No, but it wouldn't be my first preference)..

Why? This country is in need of some serious shock treatment in order to fix the issues.. It blew the biggest opportunity it ever had, and it continues to live in denial.. There is still plenty of opportunity to be had, but people need to feel the full force of the decisions they make.. People who live abroad don't (unless they pay taxes here) full the impact of those decisions..

Cavehill Red

charlemont wrote: »

probably wants everyone to only vote for 1 party , actually a one party state would probably suit him, take a guess which party that would be....

Hope you guessed Labour...

charlemont

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Hope you guessed Labour...

good choice, bud...best option we have..

lugha

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If they weren't deported, then they chose to leave.
So they no longer live in Ireland.
So they're not entitled to a vote.
They come back, they get a vote.
Simples.
The people living IN Ireland should be the only people who have a say over how Ireland is run.

No they should not. If they are not resident here / paying tax here then they have no business voting here. Wait for the silly unity project to be realized first when they will be paying tax, and lots of it.
It is unfortunate for people who had no choice but to leave but I think it is ludicrous to give them voting rights. How many people ex-pats could potentially vote? It is plausible that Irish affairs could be shaped more by people who are disconnected from the place than those that live here. Crazy suggestion IMO. We could have a scenario where the undocumented (i.e. illegal) Irish in the US ight become an actual election issue? :eek:

A Dub in Glasgo

The vote shjould be available to Irish people who have gone abroad (maybe up to 5 years after they left). I am now 17 years in Glasgow and the voting patterns over the last decade has made it much harder for me to move my family back to Dublin but that is life and I travel back about 6 times a year (thank you Mr O'Leary!). I actually know a lot more about Irish politics and policy than a lot of the folk I know who are still in Ireland and eligible to vote. Just because an Irish person lives abroad does not mean all ties are cut.

maninasia

Other countries with large numbers of expats worldwide allow their citizens to vote..Phillipinos, South Africans, Americans, Canadian, Germans etc...it's a celebration of their country's democracy and is usually a joyful occassion for those citizens abroad.

It gives a third force in voting that in theory is more independent and policy focused, can't so easily be bought off. We don't need a tax rebate this year, we don't need stamp duty to be reduced immediately, we don't focus on social welfare as we don't depend on it. People who live overseas also have a broader perspective on things which could help in their choices. That's why you'll see many political parties are not in favour...they see it as introducing an unknown quantity into their election chances.

lugha

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

The vote shjould be available to Irish people who have gone abroad (maybe up to 5 years after they left). I am now 17 years in Glasgow and the voting patterns over the last decade has made it much harder for me to move my family back to Dublin but that is life and I travel back about 6 times a year (thank you Mr O'Leary!). I actually know a lot more about Irish politics and policy than a lot of the folk I know who are still in Ireland and eligible to vote. Just because an Irish person lives abroad does not mean all ties are cut.

Don't Irish citizens have the right to vote in GB elections?
There is a particular problem with the Irish diaspora in that it dwarfs the stay-at-home Irish. Look at the undue influence within the state of say farmers or the public sector. Were the Irish in GB or the US get the vote, and organize themselves, they could put their issues (in another country!) permanently at the top of the agenda of Irish affairs. No. Bad, bad idea.

Anyway, ex-pats get a bit too green for my liking.