Ghosts and human energy

daredevilfan

Basically guys im going off tangeant here.
But Sceptics sometimes say science does not account for the existence for Ghosts etc...
Newtons law states energy cannot be created or destroyed.....
Human beings have an abundance of potential and kinetic energy
when they die the energy does not disappear hence my theory that supernatural beings can exist
anyone agree?

face1990

daredevilfan wrote: »

Basically guys im going off tangeant here.
But Sceptics sometimes say science does not account for the existence for Ghosts etc...
Newtons law states energy cannot be created or destroyed.....
Human beings have an abundance of potential and kinetic energy
when they die the energy does not disappear hence my theory that supernatural beings can exist
anyone agree?

I dunno, all the energy our bodies use is essentially chemical energy. Once you die it just becomes energy for the worms and bacteria in the soil. Maybe that's a really pessimistic way too look at it, but that's the way I see it!

daredevilfan

face1990 wrote: »

I dunno, all the energy our bodies use is essentially chemical energy. Once you die it just becomes energy for the worms and bacteria in the soil. Maybe that's a really pessimistic way too look at it, but that's the way I see it!

Yeah i see where your going but energy it released via every cells mitocondria in our body.
Im interested in your opinion don't get me wrong but i honestly think something is in this i may research it for a PHD lol

face1990

It's a very interesting topic!
By the same argument could it be said that (almost) every living thing has potential and kinetic energy (as do many non-living things, eg. cars), and therefore would have a ghost left behind afterwards?
Which leads the question of whether a ghost could be created in laboratory conditions? (which sounds like a good film plot!)

I think if ghosts exist, they would be the remnants of something else. Some sort of life force that hasn't been discovered yet.
As a skeptic myself, I don't feel anything in mainstream science suggests there is.

daredevilfan

Yes but all living things do not have a brain the size of a human or animal.
the brain i feel is a key component to how a spirit/ghost becomes what it is.
Before death trauma etc leads to residual hauntings. im becoming increasing inclined to do research on this now my friend and see am i going on a bananas trip or am i on a right track.
Cheers on your input face science always needs a conflicting view:D

face1990

Absolutely, it's always good to challenge your own opinions, and other people's!
And it's really interesting to hear the different opinions on supernatural events, there's so many possible explanations for them.

Oryx

Topic split to its own thread.

GodlessM

Interesting topic. I think science can in fact support the existence of the supernatural. For instance, our brains have the potential to convert electrical energy into several other types of energy, though our own potential to control this is limited. Astral projection is theoretically possible, and the existence of a ghost really is just that only under alternate circumstances. Perhaps we can theorise further from daredevilfan's explanation and say that before shutting down the brain could potentially expel all its remaining energy and this could possibly manifest as an electrical signal containing our thoughts and memories (which are just that; electrical signals) and thus you have your ghost.

face1990 wrote: »

Which leads the question of whether a ghost could be created in laboratory conditions?

Could a hologram not be considered a ghost of sorts, thus answering you question affirmatively?

DeVore

Energy plants can produce terrawatts of power but when they are turned off.. where does that energy go to?

Its simply not produced. If you look closely you will see that dead people dont eat much and so dont have the raw fuel to create energy in the mitochondria in muscle cells (hence the "not moving about much" dead people exhibit).

Its a nice thought but not one supported by existing scientific evidence.

DeV.

ultain

face1990 wrote: »

It's a very interesting topic!
By the same argument could it be said that (almost) every living thing has potential and kinetic energy (as do many non-living things, eg. cars), and therefore would have a ghost left behind afterwards?
Which leads the question of whether a ghost could be created in laboratory conditions? (which sounds like a good film plot!)

I think if ghosts exist, they would be the remnants of something else. Some sort of life force that hasn't been discovered yet.
As a skeptic myself, I don't feel anything in mainstream science suggests there is.

with you on that..a branch of "science" that yet has to be discovered is a big possibility..That whole thing of genetic memory coupled with telepathy and the like could act as some kind of spark that accounts for the manifestations of "ghost" and poltergeist activity.

housemap

Read a science book or two it should give you a better idea of what various kinds of energies are about and what they can and can't do (turn into ghosts)

Tom Sull

daredevilfan wrote: »

Basically guys im going off tangeant here.
But Sceptics sometimes say science does not account for the existence for Ghosts etc...
Newtons law states energy cannot be created or destroyed.....
Human beings have an abundance of potential and kinetic energy
when they die the energy does not disappear hence my theory that supernatural beings can exist
anyone agree?

really good question, u could say when u die and u decompose your energy is recycled via worms and things like that, which i personally think because lets say your a dog or cat and you die would you be a ghost cat/dog(woof,Woof), that's wat gets me! us humans think were the most important thing on this planet so important that we think theres gotta be more for us because were so great, when u die your bodie dies thats it you no longer exist, if there was a such thing as ghosts then there must be some super secret ghost pact made with god that if u tell any1 you wont be a ghost anymore or maybe he'll super dooper kill you revoking all haunting right's were just organisms nothing special about us, ill let you know if i see any ghost dogs cats or ghost humpback whales if anyone's p****d off its gotta be the humpbacks :-) heehee

Tom Sull

GodlessM wrote: »

Interesting topic. I think science can in fact support the existence of the supernatural. For instance, our brains have the potential to convert electrical energy into several other types of energy, though our own potential to control this is limited. Astral projection is theoretically possible, and the existence of a ghost really is just that only under alternate circumstances. Perhaps we can theorise further from daredevilfan's explanation and say that before shutting down the brain could potentially expel all its remaining energy and this could possibly manifest as an electrical signal containing our thoughts and memories (which are just that; electrical signals) and thus you have your ghost.



Could a hologram not be considered a ghost of sorts, thus answering you question affirmatively?

thats a really good point, got me thinking now

maccored

housemap wrote: »

Read a science book or two it should give you a better idea of what various kinds of energies are about and what they can and can't do (turn into ghosts)

different kind of energy. what energy is it that differentiates between a dead person and a live one? what energy does life itself use? I dont think you'll find any documentation about that in books considering science doesnt really consider that as 'energy'.

housemap

maccored wrote: »

different kind of energy. what energy is it that differentiates between a dead person and a live one? what energy does life itself use? I dont think you'll find any documentation about that in books considering science doesnt really consider that as 'energy'.

The difference between a dead person and a live one is electrical signals running through the brain.

GodlessM

housemap wrote: »

Read a science book or two it should give you a better idea of what various kinds of energies are about and what they can and can't do (turn into ghosts)

A science book does not dictate that energy cannot become or create a ghost because a) scientists don't believe in ghosts at all and b) if they did they currently would not know exactly what they are or they come into being exactly so there is no definite answer as you have put forth.

gbee

daredevilfan wrote: »

when they die the energy does not disappear hence my theory that supernatural beings can exist
anyone agree?

Yes, absolutely, but one can also become and angle in Heaven or a devil in Hell or one can be reabsorbed into the cosmos to make a tiny tiny portion of a new star or one can be reborn into a mortal body ~ or as I believe we 'possess' new life.

I think all babies are born 'neutral' and are possesses soon thereafter, I beleive it's usually a deceased family member as the 'spirit' was often thought to follow the family lines, but new and strange spirits often emerge too.

So, basically, if one has had a bad, sad life one feels unfulfilled and after death may haunt and terrorise the living. As I believe we are all possessed, the concept of a ghost possessing adults by force is quite logical.

The exorcism of wanting the ghost to pass over is in my mind the enticement to rejoin the greater cosmos and be part of the new birth of a star ~ all identity and previous sentientness is lost.

housemap

gbee wrote: »

Yes, absolutely, but one can also become and angle in Heaven or a devil in Hell or one can be reabsorbed into the cosmos to make a tiny tiny portion of a new star or one can be reborn into a mortal body ~ or as I believe we 'possess' new life.

Do you have anything to back these assertions up ?

Circa 100,000,000,000 people have lived and died up to this point, it's strange how we aren't tripping over ghosts everytwhere we go.

GodlessM

housemap wrote: »

Do you have anything to back these assertions up ?

Circa 100,000,000,000 people have lived and died up to this point, it's strange how we aren't tripping over ghosts everytwhere we go.

The same can be said however on your implications in this thread; do you have anything to back up a non-existance of ghosts?

This is the point in these discussions as it generally is an unproven area.

housemap

GodlessM wrote: »

do you have anything to back up a non-existance of ghosts?

I can't believe people are still asking these questions lol

GodlessM

housemap wrote: »

I can't believe people are still asking these questions lol

I'm not a solid believer, nor am I a sceptic, as I believe the lore has the potential to be true. People ask such questions because there is no solid answer; though you may have made up your mind on what you believe in, this is not the place to assert it in a general sense. I take your latest comment as very disrespectful to opinions other than your own. This may be a misinterpretation on my part and if so I apologise, but it certainly comes off that way, and in such an ambiguous topic, a certain degree of respect for differing opinions is vital.

housemap

GodlessM wrote: »

I'm not a solid believer, nor am I a sceptic, as I believe the lore has the potential to be true. People ask such questions because there is no solid answer

If you make a claim for the existence of something it is up to you to prove it not to me to disprove it.

I can claim the most ridiculous thing I can possibly imagine exists and ask you to disprove it , just because you can't disprove it does not mean it's a pile of BS.

GodlessM

housemap wrote: »

If you make a claim for the existence of something it is up to you to prove it not to me to disprove it.

I can claim the most ridiculous thing I can possibly imagine exists and ask you to disprove it , just because you can't disprove it does not mean it's a pile of BS.

Considering there is at least two sides to everything this cannot be the case; by your own very reckoning if you claim there is no such thing as ghosts it is up to you to prove it not for me to disprove it. You can see where this is going. In any given argument of two sides proving one side is right proves the other is wrong, and thus proving one disproves the other. Fact is, if it is valid for you to ask people to prove ghosts exist, it is just as valid for that person to ask you to prove they do not.

Either way, without proof on one side there is no answer, so the question remains up in the air, and thus any query on the subject is still valid. People have that right to ask just as much as they have their right to believe.

face1990

GodlessM wrote: »

Considering there is at least two sides to everything this cannot be the case; by your own very reckoning if you claim there is no such thing as ghosts it is up to you to prove it not for me to disprove it.

It's up to the believer to prove it. Otherwise we have to accept the existance of unicorns and leprechauns because no-one can prove they don't exist.

Russell's Teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot) is an analogy used to explain this. It more specifically refers to religious beliefs, but it's the same principle.

housemap

GodlessM wrote: »

by your own very reckoning if you claim there is no such thing as ghosts it is up to you to prove it not for me to disprove it.

When we die, the loving energy that makes us human transformes into a Tyranosauras Rex as the T-rex was the purest most functional example of biologocal life, our loving energy freed from the human form naturally takes on the purer form of the t-rex, unbound by physics our loving energy T-rex expands to over 25 times the size of the sun. It then begins the freedom voyage, ghosting through space seeing all the wonders of nature that were denied us while bound in our physical body, having seen all the wonders and ending up on the other side of the universe we meet all the other T-rex's , yes all our relatives past and famous people who went before us.
A huge t-rex love in, where all are dreams come true.

Prove my T-rex's don't exist.
Kthxbai

gbee

housemap wrote: »

Do you have anything to back these assertions up ? Circa 100,000,000,000 people have lived and died up to this point, it's strange how we aren't tripping over ghosts everytwhere we go.

No, one would not be tripping over ghost everywhere, in short, everything goes in circles, there is only so much energy at our disposal and there is no new energy being provided for us to use.

So the same energy is used over and over again and again, at this point any human on the planet will have had many reincarnations, or possessions as I call them, whilst in possession of a live body the life existence is unique, the memory passes in history but the life-form dies off and is lost.

But the energy is not lost, it goes on to possess other newborn babies and creates new humans, so whilst the unique memories may be in the trillions, the life force is not.

GodlessM

housemap wrote: »

When we die, the loving energy that makes us human transformes into a Tyranosauras Rex as the T-rex was the purest most functional example of biologocal life, our loving energy freed from the human form naturally takes on the purer form of the t-rex, unbound by physics our loving energy T-rex expands to over 25 times the size of the sun. It then begins the freedom voyage, ghosting through space seeing all the wonders of nature that were denied us while bound in our physical body, having seen all the wonders and ending up on the other side of the universe we meet all the other T-rex's , yes all our relatives past and famous people who went before us.
A huge t-rex love in, where all are dreams come true.

Prove my T-rex's don't exist.
Kthxbai

And if you were being sincere I would say you are entitled to that belief.

face1990 wrote: »

It's up to the believer to prove it. Otherwise we have to accept the existance of unicorns and leprechauns because no-one can prove they don't exist.

Russell's Teapot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot) is an analogy used to explain this. It more specifically refers to religious beliefs, but it's the same principle.

I suppose you are right, though my main point was that people are entitled to whatever belief they wish without having to prove it and others should respect that.

face1990

GodlessM wrote: »

I suppose you are right, though my main point was that people are entitled to whatever belief they wish without having to prove it and others should respect that.

People are entitled to believe whatever they want, but we can only seriously consider those beliefs is there is some sort of evidence to back them up.
One can believe anything one wants but it doesn't make it true, or even remotely true.

The existance of a 'life force' that transcends all other matter and energy is a nice idea, but it doesn't make sense in logical terms. Just as a communist, egalitarian society is a lovely idea but in practice it doesn't work.

housemap

GodlessM wrote: »

And if you were being sincere I would say you are entitled to that belief.

The point isn't whether anybody is entitled to any particular belief it's whether the belief has any grounding in reality.

housemap

gbee wrote: »

But the energy is not lost, it goes on to possess other newborn babies and creates new humans, so whilst the unique memories may be in the trillions, the life force is not.

See my T-rex post above , thats just as valid as this.

maccored

housemap wrote: »

The difference between a dead person and a live one is electrical signals running through the brain.

yes, and what powers that electrical signal? where does it come from in the first place?

They say that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but at the same time you cant claim that lack of evidence means a claim cant be true.

("Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence!" --Carl Sagan, Astronomer )

For the record, I wouldnt class my self as a 'believer'.

maccored

face1990 wrote: »

It's up to the believer to prove it.

No-one ever needs to prove anything to anyone else - its up to each individual what they believe. if you dont believe them, fine, but unless you can prove them wrong, its best to say nothing.

maccored

housemap wrote: »

The point isn't whether anybody is entitled to any particular belief it's whether the belief has any grounding in reality.

ergo, when people believed the earth was flat and thought that claims to the contrary had no grounding in reality, then they were correct? Wow - its amazing the human race has progressed at all with logic like that.

maccored

face1990 wrote: »

People are entitled to believe whatever they want, but we can only seriously consider those beliefs is there is some sort of evidence to back them up.
One can believe anything one wants but it doesn't make it true, or even remotely true.

Completely agree - but personally, whatever beliefs I have, I really dont give a toss who else seriously considers those beliefs to be true. We cant live in a society where personal beliefs are governed by what others think of those thoughts.

KeithAFC

For all you know, it could be an energy which you may never even notice when you are dead. Your energy could exist in some form which is what we would call residual hauntings. Like the stone tape theory, buildings and objects can hold energy. If so, there is no reason to suggest that this isn't what ghosts are. It could very well be.

Of course some will debate this but i haven't really seen an argument which has convinced me its a stupid theory.

housemap

maccored wrote: »

ergo, when people believed the earth was flat and thought that claims to the contrary had no grounding in reality, then they were correct? Wow - its amazing the human race has progressed at all with logic like that.

Theres a huge difference between claiming the earth was round and any of these ghostly claims, evidence,

The horizon, the shape of the earths shadow on the moon, after the discovery of gravity the fact that gravity is the same everywhere also points to a round earth etc etc.

This is all testable.

housemap

maccored wrote: »

Completely agree - but personally, whatever beliefs I have, I really dont give a toss who else seriously considers those beliefs to be true.

then keep them to yourself

GodlessM

face1990 wrote: »

People are entitled to believe whatever they want, but we can only seriously consider those beliefs is there is some sort of evidence to back them up.

Tell that to the millions of people that have a serious belief in an all powerful being that lives in the sky.

housemap wrote: »

The point isn't whether anybody is entitled to any particular belief it's whether the belief has any grounding in reality.

Well considering hundreds if not thousands of people all over the world have claimed to have seen ghosts, I'd say it is somewhat grounded in reality. And regardless, if you feel the existance of ghosts isn't possible, then why are you posting in a paranormal forum going 'prove it, prove it' to people that do? Do you get enjoyment out of that? Leave them to discuss in their beliefs.

housemap wrote: »

then keep them to yourself

So now because the guy doesn't let his beliefs be opinionated by others he is not allowed discuss them at all is it? Again I get this vibe that you don't care for any opinion other than those that agree with your own.

maccored

housemap wrote: »

then keep them to yourself

I do - what exactly is your point?

housemap

GodlessM wrote: »

So now because the guy doesn't let his beliefs be opinionated by others he is not allowed discuss them at all is it? Again I get this vibe that you don't care for any opinion other than those that agree with your own.

That's not true I'm very open to any possibility, all I ask for is some evidence, and there is zero of any kind regarding anything paranormal.

What people think they saw doesn't count for anything, eye witness reports always make me think of the 'did you spot the gorilla' test , most people don't spot the gorilla.

maccored

housemap wrote: »

Theres a huge difference between claiming the earth was round and any of these ghostly claims, evidence,

The horizon, the shape of the earths shadow on the moon, after the discovery of gravity the fact that gravity is the same everywhere also points to a round earth etc etc.

This is all testable.

theres no huge difference. these things are testable now - they werent a thousand or more years ago (when people thought the earth was flat).

maccored

housemap wrote: »

That's not true I'm very open to any possibility, all I ask for is some evidence, and there is zero of any kind regarding anything paranormal.

What people think they saw doesn't count for anything, eye witness reports always make me think of the 'did you spot the gorilla' test , most people don't spot the gorilla.

who cares if you want evidence? why should anyone round about trying to get it for you?

face1990

maccored wrote: »

No-one ever needs to prove anything to anyone else - its up to each individual what they believe. if you dont believe them, fine, but unless you can prove them wrong, its best to say nothing.

But what would be the point in doing that? Science and our knowledge of the world needs to progress, and can only do so if one tries to discount as many hypotheses as possible, discounting the ones that don't stand up to logical argument.

housemap wrote: »

then keep them to yourself

Similarly, there's no point in discussing this if we don't take everyone's opinions into account and debate all those opinions.

GodlessM wrote: »

Tell that to the millions of people that have a serious belief in an all powerful being that lives in the sky.

I do! I tell as many of them as I can, and with great satisfaction! Religion is the biggest farce of all, but that's for a whole other thread!

housemap

maccored wrote: »

theres no huge difference. these things are testable now - they werent a thousand or more years ago (when people thought the earth was flat).

what ? there was always a horizon , even 1000 years ago and the earth has always cast a round shadow on the moon.

housemap

maccored wrote: »

yes, and what powers that electrical signal? where does it come from in the first place?

It's no secret how we generate electicity, if you are interested heres an article http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/cells-tissues/human-body-make-electricity.htm,

Theres lots of information out there on pretty much any topic, if you don't know how something works it's worth running a few searches rather than just making something up.

maccored

housemap wrote: »

what ? there was always a horizon , even 1000 years ago and the earth has always cast a round shadow on the moon.

and people 1000 years ago knew how to find this out, yeah? err ... i think thats a 'no'. Im sure if you were about then, you would have been one of the flat earth believers as there wouldnt have been any proof to the contrary.

It's no secret how we generate electicity, if you are interested heres an article http://health.howstuffworks.com/huma...lectricity.htm,

Theres lots of information out there on pretty much any topic, if you don't know how something works it's worth running a few searches rather than just making something up.

I really, really dont think you are getting my point. why cant dead people generate energy to live? If we know and understand how to generate our own power, then how come we havent invented machines that would just repower people who had died? Im not arguing (obviously) that humans dont generate energy .... I putting the point to you that we dont understand it as well as you believe we do.

All the same, I suspect you still wont actually get what Im asking.

by the by - what was I making up again? afaik I was asking questions.

housemap

maccored wrote: »

and people 1000 years ago knew how to find this out, yeah? err ... i think thats a 'no'. Im sure if you were about then, you would have been one of the flat earth believers as there wouldnt have been any proof to the contrary.

wow just wow

face1990

maccored wrote: »

and people 1000 years ago knew how to find this out, yeah? err ... i think thats a 'no'.

Actually, the Greeks knew the world was round since the 6th century BC. Frankly, I think the flat earth was a bad example, so lets not get to hung up on that one.

maccored wrote: »

I really, really dont think you are getting my point. why cant dead people generate energy to live? If we know and understand how to generate our own power, then how come we havent invented machines that would just repower people who had died?

I think you're taking an over-simplified view of how bodies work. Individual muscles and organs can be kept alive and functioning artificially, using man-made electricity. Entire bodies cannot, afaik, due to the complexity involved in the workings of the body, which is normally regulated and controlled by the body itself.
It's too complex. It's not a matter of plugging a body into mains socket.

Oryx

Thats an interesting point. Whole bodies can be kept alive on life support, indefinitely I presume. But if the brain is dead, it will never self support and 'live' again. So basically, human existence, or life, is down to brain activity. And now youre down to the mind/soul ghost-in-the-machine argument. Is our sense of self purely electrical signals?

maccored

housemap wrote: »

wow just wow

yes, well ...... another fine contribution

face1990 wrote:

Actually, the Greeks knew the world was round since the 6th century BC. Frankly, I think the flat earth was a bad example, so lets not get to hung up on that one.

Yes agreed, it was - but the point I was making is that throughout history theres always been people who believe that current scientific knowledge knows everything - usually by people who dont understand that science never sleeps, and is always learning.

face1990 wrote:

I think you're taking an over-simplified view of how bodies work. Individual muscles and organs can be kept alive and functioning artificially, using man-made electricity. Entire bodies cannot, afaik, due to the complexity involved in the workings of the body, which is normally regulated and controlled by the body itself.
It's too complex. It's not a matter of plugging a body into mains socket.

Again agreed - I was simplifying it as housemap didnt seem to know where I was going with it. it is basically an argument on the mind/soul as oryz suggests.

It is a question though that has to be pondered if you ask me - though it can simply be ignored at the same time. people take it for granted that when we are alive we have 'life' - I just wanted to know what powers that. what is it really?

You could tie that in with the mind and conciousness - its either a by product of the brain or its something like a soul - which ties back to the OP of 'energy'.

now maybe Im wrong, and this isnt a forum for thinking. Maybe its just a place to attempt to slag people off about 'beliefs'? (though admittedly I havent decided which side of the argument I fall on tbh)

Oryx

maccored wrote: »

now maybe Im wrong, and this isnt a forum for thinking. Maybe its just a place to attempt to slag people off about 'beliefs'? (though admittedly I havent decided which side of the argument I fall on tbh)

It depends on the argument, which side I fall on.

I hope this place is not a venue to slag off beliefs, because it would be a charter breach to do so. BUT opinion and debate is allowed.

The topic of whether we can exist separate from our brain is something I have an interest in seeing debated. Though I think the general scientific view is a big fat NO.

It is one idea on how ghosts and paranormal phenomena exist, another is that of collective consciousness, that somehow we access a universal source of information.