Volvo S60 beats Merc C-Class

VolvoMan

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0825/1224277525119.html

helimachoptor

Would s60 not = E Class and s40 = C class?

VolvoMan

helimachoptor wrote: »

Would s60 not = E Class and s40 = C class?

Nope, S80 = E-Class.

Volvo S60 = C-Class.

Manic Moran

Volvo are a little odd. They don't fight in the exact same categories as most of the other competitors, and they stay out of the 'top-of-the-line' saloon market. Probably justifiably, you can just remember how well Phaeton did. At that level, badge pride has a lot to do with it.

I'd view the S60 as a C-Class (Plus) and the S40 as a C-Class (Minus).

Cadillac are sortof similar, the CTS is sometimes considered a 3-series competitor due to price, and sometimes considered a 5-series competitor due to size.

NTM

R.O.R

VolvoMan wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/motors/2010/0825/1224277525119.html

Would be interesting to see it pitched against the A4 which is the current class leader. Never really thought much of the C-Class so it's not a great comparison for me to base anything on.

Tea 1000

R.O.R wrote: »

Would be interesting to see it pitched against the A4 which is the current class leader. Never really thought much of the C-Class so it's not a great comparison for me to base anything on.

The C-Class is a long way ahead of the A4, so is the 3-series, and now going by this report, so is the S60.
Interesting that the C-Class is quicker, but yet gets 3 star for engine versus 4 star for the S60.

Mr Benevolent

Probably justifiably, you can just remember how well Phaeton did.

The poor Phaeton, I've only seen one on the road so far in Ireland. Such a great car too.

Bodhan

R.O.R wrote: »

Would be interesting to see it pitched against the A4 which is the current class leader. Never really thought much of the C-Class so it's not a great comparison for me to base anything on.

+1 on that, I'm not too keen on the seats in a c-class, they're too hard. The A4 is much closer to the S60. I like the looks of the S60 though and the electronic eye thing that stops you hitting people, there are a few people I'd like to try that feature out on

Anan1

Confab wrote: »

The poor Phaeton, I've only seen one on the road so far in Ireland. Such a great car too.

True, the Irish just weren't ready for such an unassuming luxury car.

Tragedy

Tea 1000 wrote: »

The C-Class is a long way ahead of the A4, so is the 3-series, and now going by this report, so is the S60.
Interesting that the C-Class is quicker, but yet gets 3 star for engine versus 4 star for the S60.

There's an awful lot more to what makes a good engine than 0-60 times.
Refinement, MPG, torque, in gear acceleration, tax etc

VolvoMan

Manic Moran wrote: »

Volvo are a little odd. They don't fight in the exact same categories as most of the other competitors, and they stay out of the 'top-of-the-line' saloon market. Probably justifiably, you can just remember how well Phaeton did. At that level, badge pride has a lot to do with it.

I'd view the S60 as a C-Class (Plus) and the S40 as a C-Class (Minus).

Cadillac are sortof similar, the CTS is sometimes considered a 3-series competitor due to price, and sometimes considered a 5-series competitor due to size.

NTM

They're fixing that though. This new S60 is going to fight the competition head on.

For a period during the last decade, Volvo sort of positioned their models mid-way between the classes. The S60 and V70 for instance were bigger than a 3 Series but smaller than a 5 Series.

Matt Simis

Confab wrote: »

The poor Phaeton, I've only seen one on the road so far in Ireland. Such a great car too.

There are 3 around Navan...

Tea 1000

Tragedy wrote: »

There's an awful lot more to what makes a good engine than 0-60 times.
Refinement, MPG, torque, in gear acceleration, tax etc

I know that, but it looses out on those too according to reports.

Dardania

Anan1 wrote: »

True, the Irish just weren't ready for such an unassuming luxury car.

we must appreciate conspicuous luxury more...

saw one myself last week parked near grand canal quay in dublin 2 - beaut

Tea 1000

Dardania wrote: »

we must appreciate conspicuous luxury more...

saw one myself last week parked near grand canal quay in dublin 2 - beaut

I'd like one because no one would notice it, but I wouldn't choose one because they're actually slightly more expensive used in 3 litre diesel form than the same engine in an A8. Because the Alluminium A8 is half a tonne lighter, and cheaper, that's the one I'd go for.
The big attraction with the Phaeton was getting much more for slightly less. When it becomes more expensive the point of it is kind of gone.

unkel

From the article: the S60 (3-series and c-class competitor) costs more than a better specced more powerful 5-series. No wonder the latter are selling like hotcakes, the BMW 5-series was the best selling car in the country last month :eek:

Our Volvo is €42,673 and the Mercedes is €47,653. A new BMW 520d SE will cost from €41,750 with 184hp, with leather upholstery, Bluetooth phone preparation and automatic air conditioning – and €41,305 will get you a Mercedes-Benz E-Class E200 CDi saloon, an infinitely better car than the C-Class.

Very few people will buy an S60 if a 5-series and an E-class are cheaper...

bazz26

unkel wrote: »

From the article: the S60 (3-series and c-class competitor) costs more than a better specced more powerful 5-series. No wonder the latter are selling like hotcakes, the BMW 5-series was the best selling car in the country last month :eek:



Very few people will buy an S60 if a 5-series and an E-class are cheaper...

Indeed. It makes the 320d SE at a shade over €39k pointless too. :eek:

VolvoMan

unkel wrote: »

From the article: the S60 (3-series and c-class competitor) costs more than a better specced more powerful 5-series. No wonder the latter are selling like hotcakes, the BMW 5-series was the best selling car in the country last month :eek:



Very few people will buy an S60 if a 5-series and an E-class are cheaper...

You're not taking into account that that is for a well specced S60. The range starts off at 32,250 for that same engine in base 'S' spec.

The 520d won't prove the bargain it seems once you add essentials like auto (essential in a car of this size) and alloys that don't make the car look rubbish.

bazz26

VolvoMan wrote: »

You're not taking into account that that is for a well specced S60. The range starts off at 32,250 for that same engine in base 'S' spec.

The 520d won't prove the bargain it seems once you add essentials like auto (essential in a car of this size) and alloys that don't make the car look rubbish.

In fairness I think Volvo have got the spec of the new S60 wrong. Even the normally decent SE version doesn't come with leather seats as standard anymore on the new S60. The SE in the S40/S60 was always the volume seller, the S spec is really poor and looks to be added just to bring the price down to a competitive level.

Tea 1000

VolvoMan wrote: »

You're not taking into account that that is for a well specced S60. The range starts off at 32,250 for that same engine in base 'S' spec.

The 520d won't prove the bargain it seems once you add essentials like auto (essential in a car of this size) and alloys that don't make the car look rubbish.

Ah that's pro-Volvo bullcrap to be fair. Auto essential? Not when you have a nice chassis like the 5-series. And if you do want it, another grand is all it costs, which is what the Saab is more than it with a high spec anyway. The 5 has everything else, including a better engine and better residuals.

VolvoMan

Tea 1000 wrote: »

The 5 has everything else, including a better engine and better residuals.

It won't when you come to sell in three years time as it's basically becoming the new Avensis. BMW have really lost their exclusivity.

R.O.R

VolvoMan wrote: »

It won't when you come to sell in three years time as it's basically becoming the new Avensis. BMW have really lost their exclusivity.

There will always be a decent used market for well specified BMW's, and it will still hold it's value much, much better than either an S60, S80 or 9-5.

VolvoMan

R.O.R wrote: »

There will always be a decent used market for well specified BMW's, and it will still hold it's value much, much better than either an S60, S80 or 9-5.

....and I thought you were a Volvo man.:rolleyes:

Still, to get a new S60 in 'ES' spec, which is far more the specification we're used to, then it's only 1200 euro more. That's still a good 6 or 7 grand less than the BMW.

R.O.R

VolvoMan wrote: »

....and I thought you were a Volvo man.:rolleyes:

Still, to get a new S60 in 'ES' spec, which is far more the specification we're used to, then it's only 1200 euro more. That's still a good 6 or 7 grand less than the BMW.

I am a Volvo Man (one in the family, strong work connection), but I'm also a realist.

ES Spec S60 is 33,750, which puts it about €300 cheaper than an entry level A4.

While I've no doubt that the S60, even in ES spec will be better specified, drive much better, and just in general be a better place to be, I think you'll have to agree that the resale value of Volvo's (and especially those with a cloth interior) has never been as strong as BMW / Mercedes / Audi.

This used to be made up for in the cheaper price and/or higher specification, but even the basic specification in a 3 Series / A4 is pretty good nowadays, so Volvo have lost that advantage. As above, they've lost the pricing advantage, they don't have the dealer network for support anymore and they just don't have the prestige to keep the resale values high. Much as I'd love to be recommending the S60 over an A4, it doesn't make sense at the moment.

Before deciding on the pricing here (and all European Markets), Volvo Europe did a comparison between the S60 and 3 Series / C-Class / A4. The predicted main seller, the D3 SE Manual was pitched slightly cheaper and slightly better specced than the 320d SE and the A4 170Tdi SE. It beats those vehicles, but when was the last time you saw one of them? The Irish buy a 318 or the A4 120 or 143 - if it had been competing against those, it would have been a good proposition.

VolvoMan

R.O.R wrote: »

I think you'll have to agree that the resale value of Volvo's (and especially those with a cloth interior) has never been as strong as BMW / Mercedes / Audi.

That's pretty much an Irish thing you'll find. Literally anything that isn't German struggles to compete in this country.

Before deciding on the pricing here (and all European Markets), Volvo Europe did a comparison between the S60 and 3 Series / C-Class / A4. The predicted main seller, the D3 SE Manual was pitched slightly cheaper and slightly better specced than the 320d SE and the A4 170Tdi SE. It beats those vehicles, but when was the last time you saw one of them? The Irish buy a 318 or the A4 120 or 143 - if it had been competing against those, it would have been a good proposition.

That's where the new GTDi (Gasoline Direct Injection) engines will come in. They will be available in 1.6 and 2.0 and in three states of tune (T3, T4 and T5). There will also be a 1.6 DRIVe diesel model which will no doubt have vast appeal to our narrow minded market.

maddness

I'd take a new S60 over a new A4. The present model A4 just screams repmobile now and they are like arse holes.....cos everyone has one.
An A4 sport with the 143 or 170 is a nice car but most are the 120 basic which just look far too plain. To be honest the same applies to most cars, they have to be the right colour/wheel combination to look well.
Give me a S4 in that lovely audi sports blue and I would be very happy but a basic A4 in black is just awful.

Ali Babba

Volvos hold their value like a lead balloon though and for that reason, i'm out...

RedorDead

VolvoMan wrote: »

That's pretty much an Irish thing you'll find. Literally anything that isn't German struggles to compete in this country.

Probably for a reason though - build quality of the german cars is on a different level. When you are spending money on a car that costs that much you want to be sure of what you get. Volvo is a little too hit and miss as are Saab, Jaguar (not the big stuff) Alfa Romeo, Lexus and Honda.

coolbeans

Build quality - what does that even mean? If it means a big rubber dash implying quality and reliability that may or not be there, well then, the Germans are the way to go. In the real world though build quality is a misnomer and is far from the preserve of Audi/Merc etc. A Honda may not have the squishy plastic of an A6 but don't even try to tell me that the Audi, or a Benz for that matter, is better built or more reliable than an Accord for example.

VolvoMan

RedorDead wrote: »

Probably for a reason though - build quality of the german cars is on a different level.

I don't think build quality has ever been an issue with Volvo. In fact, you couldn't find a manufacturer with a better reputation built on such a principle.

They have never produced cars to such a poor standard as Mercedes have in recent years. Throughout the 90's/00's, they were consistently rolling out some right sh1tters, such as the W203 C-Class, the original A-Class and the original M-Class.

samsemtex

VolvoMan wrote: »

I don't think build quality has ever been an issue with Volvo. In fact, you couldn't find a manufacturer with a better reputation built on such a principle.

They have never produced cars to such a poor standard as Mercedes have in recent years. Throughout the 90's/00's, they were consistently rolling out some right sh1tters, such as the W203 C-Class, the original A-Class and the original M-Class.

defintley, my old s40 which has 150,000miles and is 9 years old has the sturdiest build quality of any car we've had and that includes 2 C-classes and a Passat. Not a rattle out of it despite being treated relatively rough and everything still works and nothing is loose. Almost every s40 i have been in was the same. Even the leather is wearing OK.

J77

VolvoMan wrote: »

I don't think build quality has ever been an issue with Volvo. In fact, you couldn't find a manufacturer with a better reputation built on such a principle.

They have never produced cars to such a poor standard as Mercedes have in recent years. Throughout the 90's/00's, they were consistently rolling out some right sh1tters, such as the W203 C-Class, the original A-Class and the original M-Class.

Have an 06 volvo S40 2.0D SE since January now. I have had quite a bit of trouble with it and it now appears I will have to replace the DMF. Suffice to say I am less than impressed with volvo. Pity too, was hoping I'd have a great 4 year partnership with this car! First and last volvo. Will have to be an Audi, Merc or BMW next.

VolvoMan

J77 wrote: »

Have an 06 volvo S40 2.0D SE since January now. I have had quite a bit of trouble with it and it now appears I will have to replace the DMF. Suffice to say I am less than impressed with volvo. Pity too, was hoping I'd have a great 4 year partnership with this car! First and last volvo. Will have to be an Audi, Merc or BMW next.

You can be lucky and unlucky with brands you will find, so I wouldn't cut of my nose to spite my face if I were you.

For instance; we have an A4 Cabriolet and since we've had it it's gone through two coil packs and a coolant sensor (this cost 500-600 euro to replace). It also has now developed a fault where the rear brake lights turn on randomly when the car is stationery, draining the battery and also a very noisy fuel pump at the moment. I'm really dreading to think what the these two problems are going to cost.

What ever happens next, I really hope it won't be the Multitronic gearbox.

bazz26

J77 wrote: »

Have an 06 volvo S40 2.0D SE since January now. I have had quite a bit of trouble with it and it now appears I will have to replace the DMF. Suffice to say I am less than impressed with volvo. Pity too, was hoping I'd have a great 4 year partnership with this car! First and last volvo. Will have to be an Audi, Merc or BMW next.

DMF is a problem amongst all modern day manual diesel engines not just Volvo who use PSA diesel engines in the S40.

-Chris-

Bodhan wrote: »

+1 on that, I'm not too keen on the seats in a c-class, they're too hard. The A4 is much closer to the S60. I like the looks of the S60 though and the electronic eye thing that stops you hitting people, there are a few people I'd like to try that feature out on

We had Volvo give us a demo in an XC60 with the pedestrian sensors. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't want my mother to walk out in front of one...

It worked about 2 in 5 tries. :eek:

unkel wrote: »

From the article: the S60 (3-series and c-class competitor) costs more than a better specced more powerful 5-series. No wonder the latter are selling like hotcakes, the BMW 5-series was the best selling car in the country last month :eek:

Very few people will buy an S60 if a 5-series and an E-class are cheaper...

520d is the pick of the litter at the moment, nothing can touch it. It's pushed BMWs market share to something like 8%.

-Chris-

Also, the fact that this article gives the S60 4 stars for styling/looks draws the whole article into doubt. I've seen it in the flesh, and it's an ugly, ugly car (imho).

PaulieC

-Chris- wrote: »

Also, the fact that this article gives the S60 4 stars for styling/looks draws the whole article into doubt. I've seen it in the flesh, and it's an ugly, ugly car (imho).

I doubt the whole article is drawn into doubt because of you opinion. I may be wrong though

blingrhino

unless your going for the "aldi" version ,forget it-it`s just too expensive;)

-Chris-

cambo_gueno wrote: »

I doubt the whole article is drawn into doubt because of you opinion. I may be wrong though

And that's why I put imho in my post...

What was your opinion when you saw it in the flesh?

Eric Cartman

-Chris- wrote: »

520d is the pick of the litter at the moment, nothing can touch it. It's pushed BMWs market share to something like 8%.

+1 there arent really any mid size saloons that can touch it , badge appeal, fuel economy, standard specs, rear wheel drive, handling, fun to drive, its a pity the 535i isnt leading but us irish buy our cars based on the road tax price so nothing over a 2 litre ish diesel is going to be class leader anyway

PaulieC

I like it, its a bit different. In dact, i am considering getting one next year. the interior is fantastic and the soec level is quite good (albeit at se and se lux levels). I'm not sure about the depreciation levels though

GiftGrub100

-Chris- wrote: »

We had Volvo give us a demo in an XC60 with the pedestrian sensors. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't want my mother to walk out in front of one...

It worked about 2 in 5 tries. :eek:




520d is the pick of the litter at the moment, nothing can touch it. It's pushed BMWs market share to something like 8%.

Amazed it worked twice as far as I know the S60 is the first car fitted with Pedestrian detection, the XC60 has the city safety system

VolvoMan

-Chris- wrote: »

We had Volvo give us a demo in an XC60 with the pedestrian sensors. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't want my mother to walk out in front of one...

It worked about 2 in 5 tries. :eek:

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

Amazed it worked twice as far as I know the S60 is the first car fitted with Pedestrian detection, the XC60 has the city safety system

+1

-Chris-

GiftGrub100 wrote: »

Amazed it worked twice as far as I know the S60 is the first car fitted with Pedestrian detection, the XC60 has the city safety system

I've read both brochures and don't understand the difference?

VolvoMan

-Chris- wrote: »

I've read both brochures and don't understand the difference?

City Safety prevents the car from hitting another car in a low speed collision.

Pedestrian Protection does the same except on pedestrians. If you were trying this feature on an XC60, it's a good thing none of you were killed.:eek:

-Chris-

VolvoMan wrote: »

City Safety prevents the car from hitting another car in a low speed collision.

Pedestrian Protection does the same except on pedestrians. If you were trying this feature on an XC60, it's a good thing none of you were killed.:eek:

Well the Volvo rep was doing it by putting a person sized sign and then letting us drive the car at it to see if it would stop. It didn't always stop.

If that's not the point of that particular safety system, then it's probably more of an issue of the rep's product knowledge than the car. Fair point.

unkel

Pedestrian protection (S60):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPUGwbpfVhQ

City safety (XC60):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DBf8GBVmME

That Volvo rep was completely incompetent :rolleyes:

You should follow up on that Chris.

-Chris-

Yep, what was demo'd was the City Safety programme.

It was using an obstacle similar to the one seen at 1:52 in that video.

It's possibly a subtle distinction between the two systems, but the fact remains that the system failed as much as it succeed (in my small amount of experience) and if the pedestrian protection is in any way similar, I wouldn't be using it as a major decision making point if I were choosing between the Volvo and a similar car.

unkel

-Chris- wrote: »

It was using an obstacle similar to the one seen at 1:52 in that video.

That obstacle wasn't really appropriate to demonstrate the system. Did you see all of the video?

-Chris-

unkel wrote: »

That obstacle wasn't really appropriate to demonstrate the system. Did you see all of the video?

Yep.

In our demonstration, what was supposed to happen was at 4:26mins. What actually happened most of the time was at 4:40mins.
We were travelling less than 9mph.

I'm not knocking the system, and every bit of additional safety helps, but as I say, based on my small experience of this system I don't find it consistent enough to consider it a point I'd consider at purchase time.

RedorDead

Which system was this one then??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jClxcSBNwcw