Homework time for learners

Cookie_Monster

Didn't see this anywhere else, but if it is please move it.

Homework, haha. Also sounds like a lot of bother for a parent or other nominated drivers tbh
Also open to massive abuse, despite the "hefty" fines etc, which like driving unaccompanied will not be enforced

LEARNER drivers will have to do regular on-road "homework" while being supervised in the car by their parents.

They will also have to spend a set period of time driving in the darkness hours, the Irish Independent has learned. This is the high-risk period for fatal crashes involving young male drivers, sometimes with multiple casualties.

The parent will fill in and sign a log book swearing the learner has completed each stage of the training on-road "homework".

The log book will then be brought to the learner driver's officially registered instructor, who will counter-sign it.

Under radical new proposals being unveiled today by the Road Safety Authority (RSA), learner drivers will not be able to take their driving test until they complete a set number of lessons and a set syllabus -- to be known as the Graduated Driver Licensing (GDL) system.

It means that parents will no longer simply be able to put their children on their car insurance as named drivers and hand over the keys to them.

Learner drivers will still be able to take to the road if they are accompanied by a motorist who is qualified for at least two years. But they will also be required by law to designate a qualified driver as a "driving supervisor" or mentor, who will legally undertake to accompany the learner each time they have to carry out their "homework".

The supervisor will then certify that they have fully completed the syllabus.

It will no longer be possible to get a full driving licence unless the learner has fully completed the log book that has been signed by both the driving instructor and the supervising adult.

If a parent is not available, the learner can alternatively nominate another suitably qualified driver, such as an aunt, an uncle or a neighbour.

The move, a key plank in the Government's Road Safety Strategy, will bring Ireland into line with most other EU countries which do not allow learner drivers to take the driving test until they have undergone rigorous training.

Fraud

While some novice drivers may try to get around the new system by nominating a person who may sign the log book in the absence of any supervision, it is understood that the threat of a fraud prosecution will act as a significant deterrent.

Under the new system, misrepresentation of the learner's log book will be a fraudulent offence punishable by hefty fines and possibly jail.

The changes will only affect new learner-permit holders. Anyone who holds a licence now will not be affected.

The proposals are also expected to include a new restricted driving plate, known as an R-plate, when a person has completed the first phase of their L-plate training. They can then apply to get their full unrestricted licence following a further training period.

The changes come amid mounting concerns over the number of young male drivers aged 17-24 who are involved in fatal crashes in the early hours of the morning, particularly at weekends.

Learners caught clocking up penalty points for a range of offences including speeding, not wearing a seat belt or overtaking dangerously, also face the prospect of having speed limiting devices placed on their cars under new powers being given to judges.

Learner drivers will also be put off the road if they are caught with 20ml of alcohol in their system, effectively a zero-alcohol limit.

The RSA has ruled out the imposition of a night-time curfew on learner drivers and a ban on carrying unqualified drivers as passengers.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/ldrivers-get-homework-to-teach-them-road-safety-2319475.html

oldyouth

I posted in another thread yesterday that new rules were to be enforced on us and I see this as just the start.

My youngest passed his theory test yesterday and I'd be happy to comply with this as he learns to drive. His 18th birthday present was 10 professional lessons and I will practice with him.

R.O.R

While it seems like a good idea in theory, in practice it looks like overkill, and is open to abuse.

I'm not sure about the usefulness and practicality of requiring a set number of hours with a non-qualified "instructor" (for want of a better word). I thought the plan was a requirement for a set number of hours with an instructor which is easily documented.

I know when I was learning to drive, I probably only did around 5 hours with my Dad and that was me driving to Work with him bringing the car home, and coming out to get me later on the same day.

Thankfully my lessons were in winter so I got to experience driving in darkness, rain, snow, sleet, hail and 5 O'Clock Friday rush hour traffic. It should be a requirement to take some lessons in the dark and if possible (highly likely in Ireland) in the rain.

Load of poo really, might keep one or two mongs off the road though. I reckon a clapdown on people being named drivers on their own cars would be more beneficial to road safety. Something like if a family gets an extra policy no new named drivers can be added for 2 years or so. The only people that would bother are folks who insure their childrens cars in their own name and add the sprog as a named driver.

Seth Brundle

"Sorry sir but the dog ate my homework"

-Chris-

I'm glad to see something being done, but I worry this is open to abuse.

If I were the parent of a new driver I'd welcome the chance to (be forced to) accompany my kid while driving in the dark etc. so I can build confidence in their driving and not be as worried sick that a Garda will ring my doorbell in the middle of the night.
I'm sure there are plenty of parents who won't be arsed and will just sign the log regardless.

I'd rather see the whole thing more structured, with a compulsory number of hours logged with a qualified driving instructor in all weathers, but if this were imposed there would be backlash because of the expense etc.
This is a half decent compromise that's probably the thin end of some kind of wedge.

peasant

I see what they're trying to do here:

By forcing parents, aunts and uncles to become driving instructors, they're trying to teach the whole population at once about proper driving techniques

"But Daddy, this is not the way it's supposed to be done, the rules of the road and the instructor says you have to do this and that in this situation!"

Clever move !

Cookie_Monster

peasant wrote: »

"But Daddy, this is not the way it's supposed to be done, the rules of the road and the instructor says you have to do this and that in this situation!"

"If you're going to be like that you can just go out with your mother instead!"
:D

Robxxx7

How will this be enforced ? The Guards do nothing about learner drivers driving on their own as it is ...so don't see how any of this is going to be enforced

Viper_JB

OSI wrote: »

Yet another good concept that's being implemented in the crappiest, least enforceable, and cheapest possible way imaginable. Well done lads...

I agree lol they managed to coin a system which removes all responcibility from them to do any proper training of drivers what so ever and leave it squarely in the hands of the people as usual. Just going to end up in a situation where the blind are leading the blind, there are still plenty of parents out there who got their lisence without ever having to sit a test...and now they'll be driving instructors. Doesn't directly effect me as I've had my lisence for a long time now, but who ever makes decisions to implement a system like this should never be allowed into a position where they get to make these decisions.

djimi

I can see no way that system isnt going to be abused... :rolleyes:

Why are they actually bothering with introducing new laws regarding learner drivers? They dont even police the ones that exist. If they spent more energy getting the guards up off their backsides and actually policing the existing laws regarding learner drivers (and all other road laws for that matter) then it would be a better start.

Chris wrote:

I'd rather see the whole thing more structured, with a compulsory number of hours logged with a qualified driving instructor in all weathers, but if this were imposed there would be backlash because of the expense etc.

This would be the sensible way to go about it; like the law they were proposing a while back with the minimum number of hours lessons before you could take the test. But you saw the backlash to that proposal; "why should I take 20 hours lessons, sure wasnt I born the greatest driver ever, I shouldnt be forced to spend all that money on lessons I dont need".

I think the way forward regarding learnering to drive is a minimum amount of lessons with a qualified instructor (in the region of 20 hours) before the test can be taken, then when the test is passed the driver must have an R plate for 18 months/2 years which restricts the class of car they can drive, even requiring more lessons at a more advanced level to ensure that the level of driving skill is raised higher than it currently is.

As the system currently stands, with the standard of instruction and testing and the minimal way the system is policed, they can introduce any number of new laws like the one above, but its not going to change anything as the entire system is flawed to the core.

monkeypants

Jeezey Chreezy, stop bringing in new laws until you're up to speed (no pun here) enforcing the laws already on the books!

Can we have a ad campaign showing that it's unlikely that you'll wear out your indicators during the life of your car?

Regarding the crash in Mayo earlier in the week with seven youngsters injured, has anyone been questioned/arrested/prosecuted yet? Are they likely to be?

One problem with this scheme; what's the motivation for me to get involved in it at all? If I can be taken to task for signing the logbook, then I'll have nothing to do with it, thanks.

My Ma has also never taken a driving lesson or done a driving test. This is the way things were back when the bread were 'ovis. She's a safe driver all right, but her parking would make the baby Jesus weep.

I agree that there should be a zero alcohol limit, but for everyone.

The RSA has ruled out the imposition of a night-time curfew on learner drivers and a ban on carrying unqualified drivers as passengers.

The first bit I understand: Drivers cannot learn how to drive at night if you don't allow them to drive at night. But why did they rule out the second piece? Can't see what unqualified drivers bring to the discussion and if you're looking to lower the number of fatalities/injuries, then lowering the number of people in the car is a good place to start.

djimi

The RSA has ruled out the imposition of a night-time curfew on learner drivers and a ban on carrying unqualified drivers as passengers.

I thought it was always the case that learners were forbidden from carrying passengers unless they are their "accompanying" driver? When did that change?

Having a learners permit does not give you a mode of transport; it gives you a means to learn how to drive a car. The only reason a learner should be behind the wheel of a private car is when practicing with a fully qualified driver. Under no circumstances should a learner be allowed to carry passengers other than that one fully qualified driver who is accompanying them.

dillo2k10

I don't think that it was ever the case that you could not carry passengers.

When is all of this going to come into effect?
I am doing my theory test soon and applying for my learner permit in January. Do you think that it will be implemented by then.

Also, I wonder does the minimum amount of hours that you must drive for before you can take the test replace the 6 month rule or just add onto it?

Atomic Pineapple

Another half baked idea from the RSA that is open to abuse, unrealistic, never going to be enforced and is not going to add anything significant in improving young peoples driving due to the fact that their parents probably aren't great drivers to be learning from in the first place.

Why are they over complicating a simple idea?

The rule should be spending a certain amount of lessons with a qualified instructor.
Each lesson deals with different aspects, motorway, night time etc..
The qualified instructor marks when the learner has completed these and they can get a learners permit.
The learner then must apply for the full test within 6 months, if they fail they have to cover lessons on what they failed on.

Simpler, less open to abuse and learners will actually learn properly how to drive.

It really annoys me that these people are being paid to turn a simple effective idea into a mess.

Cookie_Monster

draffodx wrote: »

It really annoys me that these people are being paid to turn a simple effective idea into a mess.

all because of the fear of backlash if they make it expensive...

20-30 hours with a qualified instructor in various conditions (with motorway driving) is needed, end of.

Atomic Pineapple

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

all because of the fear of backlash if they make it expensive...

20-30 hours with a qualified instructor in various conditions (with motorway driving) is needed, end of.

They could subsidise the lessons.

Sierra Oscar

This talk of log books and the like is just absolute rubbish. I have no problem with learners having to take mandatory lessons with certified instructors - that should totally be necessary . . . but things like log books are just going to end up being abused with little to no enforcement, making it a costly waste of time and money.

monkeypants

Maybe the driving instructors don't have a good enough lobby group. I'm sure if SIMI put their mind to it, they could have a law introduced where learners can only drive new cars.

munchkin_utd

Has anyone actually a link to what is actually being proposed? The papers only seem to have half the story.

The parents are to supervise the learner with "homework" aparantly.
Does that mean then that a learner isnt allowed onto to the road before taking initial training from a qualified instructor?

Or is the instructor simply a person who instructs the parents on what to teach?

The rsa should quit leaking dibs and drabs and publish what they propose from start to finish

brownej

That article is making the rather daft assumption that everyone learning to drive is 17.
There are loads of people in their 30s, 40s and 50s learning to drive. I wonder will they need to get their parents to sign their homework too.

keithclancy

draffodx wrote: »

They could subsidise the lessons.

Subsidise it with what ..

Another loan from the World Bank ?

munchkin_utd

subsidise lessons me hole.

if someone wants to drive a car, and can afford the cost of it plus thousands to insure it, then they can afford lessons.

or better put, they can find the money for them and reprioritise their life to get lessons and be safer on the road.
Maybe forego that round the world trip?

Cookie_Monster

keithclancy wrote: »

Subsidise it with what ..

Another loan from the World Bank ?

the money the RSA waste on stupid sexist adverts

Bazzo

brownej wrote: »

That article is making the rather daft assumption that everyone learning to drive is 17.
There are loads of people in their 30s, 40s and 50s learning to drive. I wonder will they need to get their parents to sign their homework too.

In my case I might have to sign my dad's homework. :rolleyes:

I think the idea behind this is sound, but the proposal is ludicrous. Some much better methods of implementation being thrown around here.

dillo2k10

I dont see how this is going to stop accidents. All they have to do is enforce current laws. Learner drivers, for the most part, do know how drive properly and safely, they just choose not to. Making them take extra lessons or spend more time on the road will not change this.

peasant

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Has anyone actually a link to what is actually being proposed? The papers only seem to have half the story.

From the horses mouth:

Graduated Licensing System
Information and press release on the Graduated Licensing System will be posted soon on this page.

Please check back to this page in a few hours to view the details and statement on the Graduated Licensing System.

They can't even put up a press release in time
(and the website takes ages to load as well)

zenno

as far as i have read about this new law i won't be affected is this correct ? i already learned to drive 3 years ago and have alot of experience driving for two of those years in all kinds of weather. i'm on my 2nd provisional/learner permit. the rsa give you no proper information at all on this. backward people imo.

**Timbuk2**

While I think any change to help learners become better is welcome, they are not addressing the important issues.

There needs to be a huge clampdown on learner drivers driving alone - if they haven't passed a 20 minute test they are not good enough to be driving on their own.

Secondly, if compulsory lessons come in, motorway driving should be allowed for learner drivers. I had 12 lessons for my test, but after about the 7th we were only going through the motions as I worked hard at driving and had 'mastered' everything that is necessary for the test (which isn't an accurate indication of real life driving). I wish I was taught motorway driving by the instructor, but learners aren't allowed on the motorway. I did get him to bring me to the N1 between Dundalk and and the border (it's a 120km/h dual carraigeway, like a motorway but with green signs!) but of course this facility isn't available to everybody.

Robxxx7

Here you go ..info out now

http://www.rsa.ie/Utility/News/2010/RSA-announce-nine-additional-measures-to-protect-learner-and-inexperienced-drivers/

RSA announce nine additional measures to protect learner and inexperienced drivers

RSA announce nine additional measures to protect learner and inexperienced drivers. The RSA has today (1st September 2010) given an update on the measures outlined in the Road Safety Strategy 2007-2012 to enhance the way in which drivers are trained, tested and licensed in Ireland. The first phase of the modernisation project has been completed and today an additional nine actions have been announced.

The modernisation of driver training and licensing is a key foundation stone of the Governments current Road Safety Strategy. Driver testing was first introduced in Ireland in 1964 and the RSA has been working since its establishment in September 2006 to modernise the training, testing and licensing system.

Noel Brett, CEO, Road Safety Authority said "the modern driving environment is particularly demanding with increased volumes of traffic, more complex road networks and faster vehicles. It is essential that drivers are formally trained to drive safely for life rather than training just to pass a test. I want to acknowledge the maturity and responsibility which the vast majority of young and inexperienced drivers demonstrate. However driver inexperience is a major risk factor in death and injury collisions on our roads. The facts are that young and inexperienced drivers are more likely to kill or be killed on Irish roads."

In designing a graduated driving licensing system for Ireland the RSA has studied the effectiveness of these measures internationally, carried out a detailed public consultation process and sought to introduce measures that maximise the safety of inexperienced drivers and those with whom they share the road whilst seeking to avoid penalising responsible, compliant novice drivers.

The nine new measures are:

* All new first time learner permit holders with effect from 6th December 2010 for motorcycles and 4th April 2011 for cars will be required to undertake mandatory initial basic training (IBT) with an approved driving instructor (ADI). The course will be 16 hours for motorcycle and 12 hours for car licences.
* The role of the supervising driver accompanying learner drivers will be strengthened and we will introduce a requirement for learner drivers to keep a learner log to be signed by their approved driving instructor and their accompanying driver.
* The drink driving limits for drivers with learner permits and those in their first two years on a full driving licence will be reduced to 20mg/100ml. This legislation has been passed by the Oireachtas and will come into effect in September 2011.
* The penalty points for specified offences will be increased for learner and novice drivers so that accumulation of penalty points during the learning phase and in the first two years on a full licence will pose a real threat of disqualification and will impact positively on risk taking and driver behaviour.
* A standard Hazard Perception Test will be developed and carried out during the novice driver phase. The hazard perception test will specifically address risk taking and perception of risk among novice drivers.
* The current driving test will be modernised to more effectively reflect driver competencies and to influence the learning undertaken by learners. We will introduce a new externally accredited driving test format in the last quarter of 2011.
* Novice drivers will be required to display an R (restricted) plate during the first two years of their full driving licence to support the restrictions that are placed on their licence for that duration.
* The current Driver Theory Test question bank and supporting learning materials will be reconfigured to make it more effective as a learning tool.
* We will engage with the Department of Justice and Law Reform, the Gardai and the Courts Service to develop the range and combination of sentencing options available to the courts for driving offences for learner and novice drivers.

Noel Brett said "We believe that these measures are proportionate, fair and necessary. I make a particular plea to parents to increase their involvement in supervising their young adults learning to drive. Whilst the mandatory lessons will not apply to existing learner permit holders I do urge all learner drivers to engage with an ADI and undertake structured training. With the support of young people and their parents I am confident that these new measures will make a huge contribution to reducing death and injuries amongst the next generation of Irish drivers not just now but for their driving careers."

RossDonegan

I think this is a load of Bull.
With insurance costing about €2.5k and €800 worth of lessons add to that the purchase price of the car and road tax.

Your atleast looking at €5k ever before you get behind the wheel then you have to pay for petrol, tyres, services, NCT.

Where is a 17 year old going to get there hands on over €5k ?
Its going to put pressure on parents who are already stressed out trying to meet there own payments.

I myself will be 17 in Jan, and HATE the fact that they think every young male is a boy-racer. Why paint everyone with the same brush ?

And they make an example of 11 young lives lost in two seperate crash's, sorry but that was down to the two incompetent drivers behind the wheel and it was just misfortunate that they killed others, where the **** are the Guards trying to prevent this ?
Why don't they try to inforce the rules already in place and stop coming up with half baked ideas.

And I can also see these new rules leading to more uninsured drivers on the road, they just can't afford it so will just go **** it I won't get caught.

Jesus this goverment is seriously pissing me off with these stupid rules such as that new one about commercial vehicles, what about farmers who only have a Commercial and no other means of transport, Does this mean they can't drive to the village for a loaf of bread ?

And also this new **** about VRT, you have to re-register a car before 30days and if you don't you will be fined.
What about people who imported a car as a project, they have to re-register within 30days and then tax it to get the logbook because legally you have to tax it within 3 working days. So they have to fork-out atleast €640 plus another €250 to tax it to get the tax book and the car mightn't even go on the road for another year ?

Our goverment really are a bunch of braindead idiots who really need to come out of there celtic tiger years and live in the real world.

Cookie_Monster

A standard Hazard Perception Test will be developed and carried out during the novice driver phase. The hazard perception test will specifically address risk taking and perception of risk among novice drivers.

this sounds interesting.

And R plates. HAHAHAHAHA

No one puts up L plates, why on earth would they bother with R plates

Cookie_Monster

RossDonegan wrote: »

I think this is a load of Bull.
With insurance costing about €2.5k and €800 worth of lessons add to that the purchase price of the car and road tax.

12 hour lessons x 35 = 420

RossDonegan wrote: »

Where is a 17 year old going to get there hands on over €5k ?
.

A part time job, or wait until you are old enough to afford it maybe?

R.O.R

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A part time job, or wait until you are old enough to afford it maybe?

But I want it now, and it's the bloody government's fault I can't just jump in a car and drive off :rolleyes:

zenno

I see, well thats cleared that up for me.

Nuttzz

I'm going to make a fortune signing off these books as a supervising adult

peasant

see, that's another thing that pisses me off about the Road Safety Authority ...it has none (authority, that is)

The above announcement is nothing but a glorified "mission statement". Bits of it will be implemented sooner, other bits later, others again need legal changes and so on.
By the time the hole programme will finally be up and running, bits of it will already be missing (because they didn't make it through the legislature), other bits will have been watered down and even more of them will be (traditionally) circumvented or not enforced properly. All we'll end up with is a slightly less transparent mess than before.

djimi

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I dont see how this is going to stop accidents. All they have to do is enforce current laws. Learner drivers, for the most part, do know how drive properly and safely, they just choose not to. Making them take extra lessons or spend more time on the road will not change this.

Learner drivers are, by definition, someone who has potentially no driving experience or knowledge, hence the reason they are learning. When referring to learner drivers one must assume that they know absolutely nothing about driving a car, and legislate accordingly.

The reason why its proposed that learners take x number of hours of lessons and spend more time supervised on the roads is that there are too many people passing the test at the moment (which is far too easy) who are not suitably skilled to drive a car safely. In theory, if you have basic knowledge of car control and know the rules of the road you can pass the test in this country without ever taking a supervised lesson or really having any proper tuition or experience. This is what they are trying to prevent.

dillo2k10

Will they also implement a speed limit like in the north for people with "R" plates.

djimi

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Will they also implement a speed limit like in the north for people with "R" plates.

God I hope so. This country badly needs such a system, to restrict what class of car newly qualified drivers can drive and moderate how they drive for the first 18 month/2 years.

RossDonegan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

A part time job ?

Ahh but I live in the middle of the countryside NO public transport and my parents work 9-5 Monday to Friday.
My nearest town is 12miles, so really awkward getting to and from work, a car would be alot easier.

djimi

RossDonegan wrote: »

Ahh but I live in the middle of the countryside NO public transport and my parents work 9-5 Monday to Friday.
My nearest town is 12miles, so really awkward getting to and from work, a car would be alot easier.

So based on your unfortunate circumstances you feel you should be allowed to pass the theory test and then just start driving around on your own?

ANXIOUS

So these measures will only affect people that don't have a provisional licence at the moment?

Robxxx7

You have to earn the right to drive not expect it ... doesn't matter where you live. I live in the back of beyond and we made sure he took proper driving instruction and pased his test then helped with his first car and insurance .. after that its up to him.

Car doesn't have to be top of the range, something safe and reliable and not big engined ...

dillo2k10

djimi wrote: »

God I hope so. This country badly needs such a system, to restrict what class of car newly qualified drivers can drive and moderate how they drive for the first 18 month/2 years.

I think that there should also be an age restriction on the car that they drive. They are going to be a lot more clumsy if they are driving an old cheap car.

The only thing is that it will become harder for garda to enforce different laws for different drivers. And limits coming with an R plate would be a reason for people not to display them

Robxxx7

ANXIOUS wrote: »

So these measures will only affect people that don't have a provisional licence at the moment?

no the new rules are expected to be introduced in April 2011, if it was upto me they would come in tomorrow.

Robxxx7

dillo2k10 wrote: »

I think that there should also be an age restriction on the car that they drive. They are going to be a lot more clumsy if they are driving an old cheap car.

The only thing is that it will become harder for garda to enforce different laws for different drivers. And limits coming with an R plate would be a reason for people not to display them

tbh this is the area that needs the biggest attention as they do sod all now

zenno

djimi wrote: »

Learner drivers are, by definition, someone who has potentially no driving experience or knowledge, hence the reason they are learning. When referring to learner drivers one must assume that they know absolutely nothing about driving a car, and legislate accordingly.

The reason why its proposed that learners take x number of hours of lessons and spend more time supervised on the roads is that there are too many people passing the test at the moment (which is far too easy) who are not suitably skilled to drive a car safely. In theory, if you have basic knowledge of car control and know the rules of the road you can pass the test in this country without ever taking a supervised lesson or really having any proper tuition or experience. This is what they are trying to prevent.

I don't believe that to be true at all. sure I have been driving for 2 full years everyday and never once got a penalty point and never had a claim. now i would class myself as a safe driver as i always expect the unexpected and never speed, i always stay to the speed limit. I am still classed as a learner driver but i am not just starting to learn. you said..someone who has potentially no driving experience. i should think i have driving experience after two years driving through all kinds of weather and areas.

dillo2k10

Robxxx7 wrote: »

no the new rules are expected to be introduced in April 2011, if it was upto me they would come in tomorrow.

Some of the laws will be implemented by the 6th of December 2010.

Jamie-b

Will anyone who has passed the test before today have to display R plates?? I only passed on Friday, have applied for the licence etc. There is no date given for this specific change. If it comes in in 2011 I could forseeably drive around as normal for a year and then have to display R plates?

Irishrossoblu

Can the insurance companies not be involved in these new systems, ie not insuring learner drivers or invalidating learner drivers when they are not accompanied?