How to get ahead of other buyers

Alicat

Boyfriend and I are looking to buy our first house. We have our eyes on one particular type of house in a new development. There are, so far, only a handful of this type in the development. They are not built yet but will be soon.

We've been told by the agent for the development that they have quite a bit of interest in these type of houses and have our names down on 'the list' for one. We've seen the plans online, and have picked a particular plot in the estate and I really have my heart set on this particular one (the location in the estate is super). Assuming nothing disastrous happens with house prices (ie. jumping up by huge amounts) we feel it should be in our price range, albeit close to the top.

Allowing for some fibbing on the part of the agents/developers in regards to exactly how much interest they have in these houses, what's the best way to wriggle our way to the top of the list? On one hand I'm thinking we should be contacting the agents persistantly to make sure they know we are really really interested. On the other hand, I don't want to be too keen, resulting in them bumping up the price of the house.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how we should approach this? I really really want this house

Tigger

i'm a bit jagered; is it 2005 again ?

mikom

" Trapped in the past, Doctor Beckett finds himself leaping from life to life, putting things right, that once went wrong and hoping each time........ that his next leap will be the leap home."

Alicat

If you think I'm silly for worrying about it, I'd appreciate you saying so rather than cracking some jokes.

Rabble Rabble

if you want the house, and can get credit, it is yours.

Tigger

Alicat wrote: »

If you think I'm silly for worrying about it, I'd appreciate you saying so rather than cracking some jokes.

write this down.

do not buy the house !

if you want to live somewhere then rent there if it dosent exist then you dont want to live there.

when i used to tellpeeps dont buy the house (2003-2006) it was hard but now , really it should be easy

please fpor the love of ned

dont buy the house!

now back to quantum leap

Alicat

Tigger wrote: »

write this down.

do not buy the house !

if you want to live somewhere then rent there if it dosent exist then you dont want to live there.

when i used to tellpeeps dont buy the house (2003-2006) it was hard but now , really it should be easy

please fpor the love of ned

dont buy the house!

now back to quantum leap

That's not what I asked but thanks for your input

Tigger

yer welcome

don't buy the house!

Senna

Alicat wrote: »

to wriggle our way to the top of the list

I wouldn't worry about any list, estate agents will have people on a list for a development, but think of it as one of those "click this box if you'd like to hear more about our great offer", a few people might click it, but the percentage of them that are interested is tiny.

I'm not going to say "dont buy", but there are many more dangers involved in buying in a new development now. Disregarding what the EA tell you, when will this development be finished fully (not just that phase), you dont want to live in a building site for the next 20 years (thousands of people all over Ireland are and will be).

You sound like your already emotionally involved with this property, alarm bells should be ringing in your ears, bad decisions are made when the heart rules that head. There are 0000's of houses, few unique, most identical to 00's others. The property market is in turmoil, any decision to buy now must be made with a sensible head.

Treehouse72

Alicat wrote: »

Boyfriend and I are looking to buy our first house. We have our eyes on one particular type of house in a new development. There are, so far, only a handful of this type in the development. They are not built yet but will be soon.

We've been told by the agent for the development that they have quite a bit of interest in these type of houses and have our names down on 'the list' for one. We've seen the plans online, and have picked a particular plot in the estate and I really have my heart set on this particular one (the location in the estate is super). Assuming nothing disastrous happens with house prices (ie. jumping up by huge amounts) we feel it should be in our price range, albeit close to the top.

Allowing for some fibbing on the part of the agents/developers in regards to exactly how much interest they have in these houses, what's the best way to wriggle our way to the top of the list? On one hand I'm thinking we should be contacting the agents persistantly to make sure they know we are really really interested. On the other hand, I don't want to be too keen, resulting in them bumping up the price of the house.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how we should approach this? I really really want this house

Do the words "Property Crash" mean anything to you?

Do you know by how much house prices are dropping every month?

Are you aware that it is almost impossible to get a mortgage at the moment?

Are you aware that interest rates are rising?

Do you know that there are 300,000 empty properties in the State?

Have you heard about the 500,000 people unemployed?

Do you know that we have a €22b deficit that is being addressed by wage cuts and money being sucked from the economy, all to be announced in the December budget?

Have you ever heard of ghost estates (I see your development is unfinished)?

Are you aware that NAMA, any day now, is going to have to start liquidating its sizeable property stock?

Do you know that most of the country's largest developers are bankrupt?

Have you heard that over 30,000 people are in serious arrears with their mortgages?

Do you know that hundreds of thousands are in negative equity?

Have you heard about the thousands of our citizens emigrating?

And about immigrants returning home by the boatload?

Do you know about our ever spiralling cost of borrowing and our near €100b national debt?

Have you heard about the c.€30b the state is pouring into Anglo, and God knows how much to the other banks, that will need to be paid for by taxpayers?




Have you considered any of these questions? If not, please look into them as a matter of extreme urgency.

And if you have considered them, could I ask how you have come to the conclusion that house prices might rise and that there is likely to be a tsunami of rabid buyers gasping to get in ahead of you to buy the property you are interested in?

@OP

@OP

Please look!!!
This can't be the only house available.. Read what others have said (above and take note) and look at other (web)sites.
If this is the type of house you want look at secondhand ones of similar calibre as well.

This is a buyers market so treat it as so, and remember, the banks hold all the cards when it come to getting a mortgage and they have few cards right now!

Please be careful! the site Askaboutmoney.com is full of "o shít I'm skint stories!"

Alicat

Yes! I'm aware of all those things you stated. I'm also aware that the first batch of these houses, mainly the ones of a smiliar type to the ones I like, were sold extremely quickly, even with all of those things you mentioned above. So some people were obviously quite successfull in getting their mortgage! We have already discussed our mortgage with our lender and will have no problems, and I'm sure there are other people like us.

The development is unfinished, but largely because it only began a couple of months ago. The builder is right to be releasing them in phases, so he can see how well they are going to go. No point in building an estate that's going to be two thirds empty. But the first phase has flown. The next phase will only be released in about six months, giving lots of people time to view the estate and build up a good interest. People who missed out on this phase will surely be looking to the next one, seeing as it is only mere months away. The only two other properties similar to our one are placed very close to the main road, so I know that the one we are looking at will be targetted by anyone in a similar position to us as it is placed very well in the estate.

When I mentioned the unlikely event of house prices rising, I was trying to explain that we are totally ready to buy. I don't expect them to rise, but this would be the only thing that would stop us, were it to happen (like a tsunami!). The new houses are slightly bigger and will be priced accordingly, but these prices have not be released yet.

If everyone is of the opinion that I am just paranoid, and that there will be no problem, I am quite happy to accept that opinion. I'm not stupid, but I am a first time buyer and excuse me for having some worries about it.

Alicat

Deleted User wrote: »

@OP

Please look!!!
This can't be the only house available.. Read what others have said (above and take note) and look at other (web)sites.
If this is the type of house you want look at secondhand ones of similar calibre as well.

This is a buyers market so treat it as so, and remember, the banks hold all the cards when it come to getting a mortgage and they have few cards right now!

Please be careful! the site Askaboutmoney.com is full of "o shít I'm skint stories!"

Thanks for the reply. I am aware that it's not the only house available, but it is our preferred house. I could 'settle' for others in the area but I'd rather not waste hundreds of thousands of euro on a house we are 'settling' for. We are in no rush to buy, but at the same time this is the first house that we have found in a year that has met our standards.

I am aware that it is a buyer's market, and I would like to get it for the lowest price I can. I don't want to be too interested in the house to the agent as I don't want them getting cheeky and adding a few grand to the house, when I could get it for less.

I don't want to get into personal details, but the mortgage is fine. It's all settled, you'll just have to trust me on this one!

Tigger

Sine you didn't thank my posts I'll say you should buy the house it sounds great value the place will be finished and handed over pronto and shure rent is ded money

Also http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=32268&start=0

uncanny

Alicat wrote: »

We've been told by the agent for the development that they have quite a bit of interest in these type of houses and have our names down on 'the list' for one.

Allowing for some fibbing on the part of the agents/developers in regards to exactly how much interest they have in these houses, what's the best way to wriggle our way to the top of the list?

Ring the agent every single day for an update on your place on "the list". Once every 8 weeks, do not ring for an update - just to keep them guessing and not appear "overly interested".

Oh, and drink two litres of distilled water every morning to preserve the essence of your natural bodily fluids. You lunatic.

Alicat

Tigger wrote: »

Sine you didn't thank my posts I'll say you should buy the house it sounds great value the place will be finished and handed over pronto and shure rent is ded money

You just didn't answer my question, that's the only reason for it. I'm not asking for opinions on whether I should buy it or not. I want to know how.

I shall thank your posts if it makes you feel better!

Alicat

uncanny wrote: »

Ring the agent every single day for an update on your place on "the list". Once every 8 weeks, do not ring for an update - just to keep them guessing and not appear "overly interested".

Oh, and drink two litres of distilled water every morning to preserve the essence of your natural bodily fluids. You lunatic.

Jeez, everyone's a comedian on here :P

I can accept being called a lunatic. It's great! It means I can relax and stop worrying, which is what I came for. Some reassurance from people who have some experience.

God help any thin-skinned newbies looking for help!

Alicat

Senna wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about any list, estate agents will have people on a list for a development, but think of it as one of those "click this box if you'd like to hear more about our great offer", a few people might click it, but the percentage of them that are interested is tiny.

I'm not going to say "dont buy", but there are many more dangers involved in buying in a new development now. Disregarding what the EA tell you, when will this development be finished fully (not just that phase), you dont want to live in a building site for the next 20 years (thousands of people all over Ireland are and will be).

You sound like your already emotionally involved with this property, alarm bells should be ringing in your ears, bad decisions are made when the heart rules that head. There are 0000's of houses, few unique, most identical to 00's others. The property market is in turmoil, any decision to buy now must be made with a sensible head.

I am getting slightly emotionally involved, I do recognise that. But I think it's only right to strike a balance between the head and the heart when buying a long term investment. We have seen other houses that we considered and then realised that their seemingly tiny flaws would probably rear their ugly heads in a few years and we could be stuck with them. I don't want to buy a house only to hate living in it a few years later. I know that I don't have the option of selling up and moving whenever I want. This has to be long term. The house and the area are perfect for the two of us now, and if/when we start a family.

I have a family member involved in the banking business and a friend in the development business. Both are well prepared to steer me away from any bad investments, they have no qualms in slapping me down if it's required! However, I will dig a little deeper into the plans for the estate. I do appreciate that it is something to consider seriously. If the purchase is too risky, I am prepared to drop it.

MaceFace

Alicat wrote: »

I am getting slightly emotionally involved, I do recognise that. But I think it's only right to strike a balance between the head and the heart when buying a long term investment. We have seen other houses that we considered and then realised that their seemingly tiny flaws would probably rear their ugly heads in a few years and we could be stuck with them. I don't want to buy a house only to hate living in it a few years later. I know that I don't have the option of selling up and moving whenever I want. This has to be long term. The house and the area are perfect for the two of us now, and if/when we start a family.

I have a family member involved in the banking business and a friend in the development business. Both are well prepared to steer me away from any bad investments, they have no qualms in slapping me down if it's required! However, I will dig a little deeper into the plans for the estate. I do appreciate that it is something to consider seriously. If the purchase is too risky, I am prepared to drop it.

Seriously?
You picked a house that has not even been built yet and are unwilling to listen to people who are trying to explain to you that your making a huge mistake.
You appear to be very emotionally involved, and I am going out on a limb here to say that this will be your first house. Otherwise you would know that there is no such thing as a perfect house.

Let me ask you a few questions:
* What are your neighbours like?
* Are there trucks parked outside your door/on your road?
* Any gangs of teenagers hanging around the place?
* Is there a history of flooding in the area?
* What is traffic in the estate like?
* How many more houses are due to go in over the next 10 years?
* What are the chances the developer going bust in the next 10 years?
* What is the build quality of the house like?
* Any social/affordable housing in the estate/next door?

Like seriously, these are the type of things that can turn an ideal home into a nightmare and while during the boom we were led to believe we had to take these chances before they were priced out of our range, in a falling market (with no signs of it stopping), there is no excuse for being so nieve.

However, if you want to ensure your at the top of the list, go in and tell them the plot you want and offer 10k more to guarantee it.

monkeypants

Don't forget to factor in property tax. We don't have one yet, but I think it's only a matter of time and it'll start at around a grand a year. It'll go up, never down.

Calina

Alicat wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I am aware that it's not the only house available, but it is our preferred house.

The house does not exist yet. How you can claim to prefer it to all other houses, including a bunch of houses that do exist is beyond me.

No way in hell would I buy a house or an apartment off the plans. I have seen enough complaints about snag lists not completed, completion dates slipping, specfications changing prior to completion. While I understand that it suits the finances of developers to sell from plans, it is not necessarily in your interest to buy from them.

I have no advice to get you further up a popularity list with an estate agent. You are talking lots of money and there is never only one house. If this is the only house for you then I am sorry. There is no point in anyone offering you any advice because you will not heed any of it.

triskellion

To answer the question you actually asked Alicat, there's no need to be calling the agent or the builder on a regular basis.
If you just keep an eye on the site you'll see where the construction is at. You can by all means make an offer on the house at any stage you wish, it is after all a buyers market and it will help the builder bank the project.
It's a bit of a catch 22 as banks are reticent to lend to builders to spec build and unlikely to lend to buyers for homes off plans.
As loan offers have a finite time line, if you are looking to buy from plans, even if you're approved at the time you agree to buy, the offer will most likely have expired by the time the house is ready to move into, so it's essential any contract that issues has a subject to loan approval clause. That was if the value drops in the interim and your attached loan offer follows suit, you can get your deposit back or renegotiate the deal.
There's no need to get too worked up at this stage I'd say so just relax and take your time.

Raskolnikov

Alicat wrote: »

The development is unfinished, but largely because it only began a couple of months ago.

You just cannot understate the risk of buying in an uncompleted development at this point. If the builder goes out of business, you will be stuck living on a building site, in a vastly depreciated house that you can't sell. I am not scaremongering; this is a reality that thousands of people are already facing.

whippet

It might not be what you want to hear OP but I am going to throw in my two cents:

I made the same mistake 5 years ago. Now I am trying to get out. I have my house on the market, and will have to fork out money from my savings to buy out my negative equity. I am doing it now to ensure that I can actually do it.

I intend to rent for the short to medium term, until I see what the lie of the land is and probably build myself then.

The reality is: if you sign contracts now for a house off the plans, by the time you move in you will already be in negative equity (unless you have a whopper of a deposit cashwise, probably 30%) House prices are going one direction and one direction only for the next 12 - 24 months.

Also, you have mentioned that you will be buying at the top of your budget. Take note that interest rates from the ECB are still at historically low levels, again these can only go in one direction.

With a surety that interest rates are on the rise and property prices are still moving south .. this is a recipe for disaster .. this is what has the country in a mess.

I seriously doubt if any new developement has a waiting list of eager buyers queuing up to buy, I am sure there are little white lies being spun by the estate agents. Newbuilds are like crippled greyhounds, nobody can get rid of them.

Buying in an uncomplete estate now really is madness. There are hundreds of estates all around the country which are incomplete and the likelyhood is that they will remain like that for years to come, building sites.

Developers who want to cannot source credit to complete their projects, the banks won't lend to them. Don't get drawn in by the marketing of the estate agents and developers .... do your own due dilligance.

Also, when you look to draw down your mortgage the bank will be doing their own valuation of the property and if they feel the same as most people posting here they will not approve your mortgage!

Harsh words, but not without foundation.

I got burned, have managed to see the light and fortunatly have an option to get out .. but many more can't.

monkeypants

whippet wrote: »

Also, you have mentioned that you will be buying at the top of your budget. Take note that interest rates from the ECB are still at historically low levels, again these can only go in one direction.

To add to that, the interest rates in this country have very little to do with the ECB rate (apart from people on trackers, which you can't get anymore). The Irish banks are raising their rates two/three times a year in their efforts to recapitalise.

whippet wrote: »

Buying in an uncomplete estate now really is madness. There are hundreds of estates all around the country which are incomplete and the likelyhood is that they will remain like that for years to come, building sites.

There's a lot of talk around demolishing these developments, that's how bad it all is.

daltonm

Alicat wrote: »

Boyfriend and I are looking to buy our first house. We have our eyes on one particular type of house in a new development. There are, so far, only a handful of this type in the development. They are not built yet but will be soon.

We've been told by the agent for the development that they have quite a bit of interest in these type of houses and have our names down on 'the list' for one. We've seen the plans online, and have picked a particular plot in the estate and I really have my heart set on this particular one (the location in the estate is super). Assuming nothing disastrous happens with house prices (ie. jumping up by huge amounts) we feel it should be in our price range, albeit close to the top.

Allowing for some fibbing on the part of the agents/developers in regards to exactly how much interest they have in these houses, what's the best way to wriggle our way to the top of the list? On one hand I'm thinking we should be contacting the agents persistantly to make sure they know we are really really interested. On the other hand, I don't want to be too keen, resulting in them bumping up the price of the house.

Anyone have any suggestions as to how we should approach this? I really really want this house

I think there is one thing you can be sure of Ali - and that is you are definately top of the agents list. The spin has worked on you - you are completely hooked - as the EA intended.
Irrespective of your status as a FTB, you are making the same mistakes that many have made before you - and have lived to regret it.
Yes buying a home is a very exciting time - but you are dismissing very important factors such as the mortgage.
Also buying with a partner has a very high risk attached it.

Have you fixed the mortgage for 5 years? If so you need to believe that the 5% (*approx) interest rate will certainly NOT apply in 5 years time - will it be lower when you are coming out of it? I very much doubt it - so you need to stress test for at least 2% over that rate.
Can you be 100% certain you will be with your b/f in 5 years?
Can you and your b/f afford the mortgage by yourself? In the event one of you loses your jobs? Or in the unlikely event that you split up - can you or he afford the mortgage and pay another rent somewhere else if you both cannot live under the same roof?

There is no "balance" between head and heart - this is first and foremostly a business transaction. I say that because in the event of any of the issues above then business prevails - the banks won't care about your "emotions" they'll simply want their money.

I could nearly forgive someone making your mistake during the boom, but with what has happened and what is on the way - to leap into this using the reasoning you are using is financial suicide.

It is merely an unfinished house in an unfinished housing estate. The completion of which is completely dependant on luring as many naive FTB's in as they can, the banks are playing their roles with their "teaser" rate mortgages on low interest rates that will rise in 5 years leaving you very exposed.

On a typical 250k mortgage after 5 years there is still approx 230k to be paid off (using 5% rates) if that rate is higher then your mortgage in 5 years could be several hundred euro more per month than what it is now.
Will you have the pay increases to cope with that? Will you have kids and creche fees in 5 years?

Take a step back, stress test yourself and your boyfriend as a precaution and limit your risk and exposure.

Good Luck

Ortiz

Alicat when making a bid on this property don't be afraid to go very low at first and see what feedback you get. I agree with a post above that many of these lists simply have people that just enquire and get put on a list or just go on a list for the craic. Don't worry too much. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the only serious buyer out of the lot so keep that in mind.

Prices are going to fall further there's no doubt about that but you didn't start this thread to ask should I buy. Unfortunately this forum has many idiots that just spit the same stuff out at every opportunity even though they weren't asked.

Good luck with it

Goesague

The way to get to the top of the list is to let the agent
1. Know that you have the money to complete.
2. Give the agent the impression that you have a house to sell after you move in.
3. Visit the site occasionally and do not complain about anything until you have a signed contract. Do not ask about changing anything.

CiaranC

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You just cannot understate the risk of buying in an uncompleted development at this point. If the builder goes out of business, you will be stuck living on a building site, in a vastly depreciated house that you can't sell. I am not scaremongering; this is a reality that thousands of people are already facing.

What he said.

OP, if you buy this house you will most likely cripple yourself financially for life.

testicle

There are other buyers to get ahead of???

iguana

Alicat wrote: »

I'm also aware that the first batch of these houses, mainly the ones of a smiliar type to the ones I like, were sold extremely quickly,

How do you know those houses have sold? Have the new owners moved in already? There have been recorded cases of EAs/developers putting sold signs on unsold properties, and even going so far as to park cars out front/hang curtains/etc, in order to make it look as if there is demand where none existed so potentially interested buyers feel under pressure to put down deposits.

fontanalis

Words fail me.

magentas

hey alicat, some harsh words here! I can totally understand how hard it is to contain your excitement...it's your first home! You're perfectly entitled to be busting at the seems with excitement!!!
In terms of "getting ahead" on possible competitors(?!) I know you said getting mortgage will be no prob but trust me...GET AN APPROVAL IN WRITING!
If you're pretty set on this house go in with all the details and get that approval. Your word on being able to get it means nothing to developers and they will want someone serious who is all set up and ready to go.

We were told by our bank BOI mortgage would not be a prob. Put a booking deposit on house (no more than yourself we had our hearts set on this house and had been looking for a while) to be told few days later (after I made many phonecalls) that they wouldn't be able to give it to us after all. I was devastated and thought we lost house. Got approval within 2days from EBS and was over the moon.

So get your approval in writing for that house, have solicitor arranged and put down your (fully refundable if doesn't work out) booking deposit.
Remember NOTHING is definate until final contracts are drawn up.
Try to act swiftly, don't complicate things. If you go around squeeling like a kid in a candy shop you may not be taken seriously! Try to remain cool, calm and collected!:cool:

Good luck and let me know of any developments

Alicat

MaceFace wrote: »

Seriously?
You picked a house that has not even been built yet and are unwilling to listen to people who are trying to explain to you that your making a huge mistake.

I've taken their comments on board but I did not ask for any opinion on whether we should buy or not. There has been nothing said yet to put me off buying, but some comments have given me some things to consider.

Otherwise you would know that there is no such thing as a perfect house.

It is perfect for us. I am well aware no house is perfect,all will have their flaws, but a house can be perfectly suited to a particular person/couple/family.

Let me ask you a few questions:
* What are your neighbours like?

Have no idea seeing as the estate is new. I am well aware of the problems neighbours can cause.

* Are there trucks parked outside your door/on your road?

I presume you mean 'would there be' if we purchased the house. There very well could be if/when the further phases get started. As long as they don't block or damage my property I don't mind. If work has to be done, it has to be done.

* Any gangs of teenagers hanging around the place?

I have no idea yet but I have someone checking it out for me

* Is there a history of flooding in the area?

Excellent question that we have no yet looked into. Will do that a.s.a.p.

* What is traffic in the estate like?

Should not be heavy. The plot we have picked is quite near one entrance. All going well there will be another entrance at the other end of the estate.

* How many more houses are due to go in over the next 10 years?

10 years? I couldn't say. I doubt even the builder could swear to it because it depends on how well the first phases sell. I have seen the plans for the whole development though.

* What are the chances the developer going bust in the next 10 years?

Well that is always a possibility, as with anything and anyone.

* What is the build quality of the house like?

Appears to be good but we will be having someone look into it for us.

* Any social/affordable housing in the estate/next door?

None in the estate as far as I'm aware but will dig a little bit more. There is an estate which has affordable housing, but it's not beside ours.

Like seriously, these are the type of things that can turn an ideal home into a nightmare and while during the boom we were led to believe we had to take these chances before they were priced out of our range, in a falling market (with no signs of it stopping), there is no excuse for being so nieve.

However, if you want to ensure your at the top of the list, go in and tell them the plot you want and offer 10k more to guarantee it.

I have no issues with the above questions so far, and if it continues that way, I would see no problem?

Calina wrote: »

The house does not exist yet. How you can claim to prefer it to all other houses, including a bunch of houses that do exist is beyond me.

No way in hell would I buy a house or an apartment off the plans. I have seen enough complaints about snag lists not completed, completion dates slipping, specfications changing prior to completion. While I understand that it suits the finances of developers to sell from plans, it is not necessarily in your interest to buy from them.

Firstly, we would not buy solely from plans. The plans have us extremely interested. I know what the house will be like, as there are similar ones in the estate. So I know that I prefer it to all the other houses we've looked at. It's quite simply really.

I have no advice to get you further up a popularity list with an estate agent. You are talking lots of money and there is never only one house. If this is the only house for you then I am sorry. There is no point in anyone offering you any advice because you will not heed any of it.

I have acknowledged all of the opinions, but it doesn't mean I agree with them.

I never said this was the 'only' house for us. I have yet to see one that competes with it.

Alicat

triskellion wrote: »

As loan offers have a finite time line, if you are looking to buy from plans, even if you're approved at the time you agree to buy, the offer will most likely have expired by the time the house is ready to move into, so it's essential any contract that issues has a subject to loan approval clause. That was if the value drops in the interim and your attached loan offer follows suit, you can get your deposit back or renegotiate the deal.

We are in constant contact with the lender and will be discussing all of these things. As I said we're not going to put any money down for something that only exists on a piece of paper. Thanks for the advice

Raskolnikov wrote: »

You just cannot understate the risk of buying in an uncompleted development at this point. If the builder goes out of business, you will be stuck living on a building site, in a vastly depreciated house that you can't sell. I am not scaremongering; this is a reality that thousands of people are already facing.

I do understand that, we will be keeping a close eye on the development. My only other options are to not buy at all or buy a house I hate just because it's risk free. Not very appealing options as I don't want to be renting for the next 20 years.

dan_d

OP...setting aside everyone's opinions, the big thing for me here is that the house is not yet built, and won't be for quite some time.

What you have been approved for now, may change in 6 months time.

But..the bigger worry is firstly, will the house ever get built, and secondly, if it does, will the estate ever get finished?

You might have your perfect house...in an estate that's half finished, with no street lights, unfinished sewers and unfinished roads. When you say "they'll be built soon".....what do you mean?You could be waiting another 2 years, the way "soon" works around here.

There are loads of houses out there and it's a first time buyers markets. Look a bit more - another perfect house might appear in the next 6 months.DON'T put money down, or sign your name, or promise deposits. Just don't. I could link you to so many sites that would show you how badly wrong that has gone for some people and how much money they've lost.Why do you have to have this house or no house? How much time and effort have you put in looking?? You need to look for a good year, to get a really good idea of what's available and where.

All you can do is harass the agent, and make sure you're first in line when the house is actually made available, but for the love of god, don't hand any money over. And bear in mind that EA's tend to stretch the truth a bit.

Alicat

whippet wrote: »

The reality is: if you sign contracts now for a house off the plans, by the time you move in you will already be in negative equity (unless you have a whopper of a deposit cashwise, probably 30%) House prices are going one direction and one direction only for the next 12 - 24 months.

Again, we wouldn't buy solely from plans. No money will pass hands until/unless we are totally confident in the house.

Also, you have mentioned that you will be buying at the top of your budget. Take note that interest rates from the ECB are still at historically low levels, again these can only go in one direction.

Closer to the top end, but definitely not at the top. We will be discussing these things in further detail with the lender.

Buying in an uncomplete estate now really is madness. There are hundreds of estates all around the country which are incomplete and the likelyhood is that they will remain like that for years to come, building sites.

I have seen absolutely no houses or estates that suit us, in price or location, compared to this one. So if we don't buy in this phase, will we still be looking for a house that may not appear for us for years to come? What good is it to me to finally find a house in ten years time or later? Recession or no recession, we still have our lives to live and I refuse to spend it having to ask my landlord everytime I want to stick a nail in the wall to hang a picture.

Also, when you look to draw down your mortgage the bank will be doing their own valuation of the property and if they feel the same as most people posting here they will not approve your mortgage!

Sure we'll see what happens If they won't do there's not much I can do to change it.

Thank you for sharing your personal experience though

Alicat

dan_d wrote: »

OP...setting aside everyone's opinions, the big thing for me here is that the house is not yet built, and won't be for quite some time.... When you say "they'll be built soon".....what do you mean?You could be waiting another 2 years, the way "soon" works around here... Look a bit more - another perfect house might appear in the next 6 months.

The estimation for this phase is six months. We are in no rush so if it takes that time to get finished it's fine. We are still actively looking for other properties but have seen none that compare yet.

DON'T put money down, or sign your name, or promise deposits. Just don't. I could link you to so many sites that would show you how badly wrong that has gone for some people and how much money they've lost.Why do you have to have this house or no house? How much time and effort have you put in looking?? You need to look for a good year, to get a really good idea of what's available and where.

All you can do is harass the agent, and make sure you're first in line when the house is actually made available, but for the love of god, don't hand any money over. And bear in mind that EA's tend to stretch the truth a bit.

We have been looking for just under a year now, and had been 'scanning' the year before, more than actively searching. I have property sites bookmarked that I check reguarly and email updates for new properties in our desired areas. We have other options, but given the distance they are from family, friends and work, they are not at the top of our list.

As I said before, we definitely wouldn't be handing over any money until things were completely set in place.

BrownianMotion

What was the point of this thread if you're not going to commit to anything until it is finished?

To answer your question "How to get ahead of other buyers" - offer more money.
Given that you don't plan on doing that for 6 months you may have been a bit premature asking for advice.

You seem to be genuine but I have to say if I was going to try and troll this forum this is exactly how I'd go about it.

Alicat

daltonm wrote: »

I think there is one thing you can be sure of Ali - and that is you are definately top of the agents list. The spin has worked on you - you are completely hooked - as the EA intended.

The spin made me worry, I've no problem admitting that! Sure that's why I posted my OP, looking for people with experience who could give their opinion on it and reassure me that it was indeed a spin. However, we happened to be at the first viewing weekend for this estate a few months ago, and immediately took a liking to it without hearing any spins or talking to EA's so I do know that our interest is genuine. The 'spin' was only plonked on us recently and I have no shame in admitting that it caught us as we have no previous experience.

Can you be 100% certain you will be with your b/f in 5 years?

Absolutely not! What person could swear 100% that they would definitely be with their current partner for the rest of their lives? Not even marriage can do that now.

Can you and your b/f afford the mortgage by yourself?

We will be breaking down all of the possible repayments for certain loan amounts and seeing where it starts to become uncomfortable, but as of tonight, we have not done it yet.

In the event one of you loses your jobs?

One our jobs is not at risk at all, unless we commited a serious crime! The other job is quite secure but who knows.

Or in the unlikely event that you split up - can you or he afford the mortgage and pay another rent somewhere else if you both cannot live under the same roof?

Yes, there are possible arrangements that won't disrupt the payments.

There is no "balance" between head and heart - this is first and foremostly a business transaction. I say that because in the event of any of the issues above then business prevails - the banks won't care about your "emotions" they'll simply want their money.

Absolutely. As banks, that is their perogative and rightly so. However I think it is 'bad business' on our part to invest long term on something that means nothing to us. I appreciate the viewpoint that 'emotions' should not influence a business transaction but then we may as well buy any old box on the side of the road as long as it's handy for work. I refuse to spend the money on a property that I do not like.

It is merely an unfinished house in an unfinished housing estate. The completion of which is completely dependant on luring as many naive FTB's in as they can, the banks are playing their roles with their "teaser" rate mortgages on low interest rates that will rise in 5 years leaving you very exposed.

On a typical 250k mortgage after 5 years there is still approx 230k to be paid off (using 5% rates) if that rate is higher then your mortgage in 5 years could be several hundred euro more per month than what it is now.
Will you have the pay increases to cope with that? Will you have kids and creche fees in 5 years?


Have you fixed the mortgage for 5 years? If so you need to believe that the 5% (*approx) interest rate will certainly NOT apply in 5 years time - will it be lower when you are coming out of it? I very much doubt it - so you need to stress test for at least 2% over that rate.

Take a step back, stress test yourself and your boyfriend as a precaution and limit your risk and exposure.

Good Luck

We are working on all of that at the moment! We have some meetings set up with our lender for more of that discussion. We want to run through all of our options now so that if and when the time comes to make a move we know exactly where we stand and what we need to do.

Ortiz wrote: »

Alicat when making a bid on this property don't be afraid to go very low at first and see what feedback you get. I agree with a post above that many of these lists simply have people that just enquire and get put on a list or just go on a list for the craic. Don't worry too much. I wouldn't be surprised if you're the only serious buyer out of the lot so keep that in mind.

Prices are going to fall further there's no doubt about that but you didn't start this thread to ask should I buy. Unfortunately this forum has many idiots that just spit the same stuff out at every opportunity even though they weren't asked.

Good luck with it

Thanks for the post. We will try to go as low as possible

Alicat

BrownianMotion wrote: »

What was the point of this thread if you're not going to commit to anything until it is finished?

To answer your question "How to get ahead of other buyers" - offer more money.
Given that you don't plan on doing that for 6 months you may have been a bit premature asking for advice.

You seem to be genuine but I have to say if I was going to try and troll this forum this is exactly how I'd go about it.

Of course it's genuine! Do you think I would submit myself to this crap for fun? :pac:

If/when we want to do this, I want to be fully prepared. If/when this goes ahead in 6 months I want to know exactly what we should be doing. How stupid would it be to only start asking these questions weeks before? I want to get my head around ALL of our possibilites. I don't think six months is all that early to be honest!

Alicat

iguana wrote: »

How do you know those houses have sold? Have the new owners moved in already? There have been recorded cases of EAs/developers putting sold signs on unsold properties, and even going so far as to park cars out front/hang curtains/etc, in order to make it look as if there is demand where none existed so potentially interested buyers feel under pressure to put down deposits.

That is actually something we hadn't considered! Good point Might try popping up one of the evenings to see what activity there is and how many lights are on etc.

Thanks

fontanalis wrote: »

Words fail me.

Excellent contribution, thanks very much!

magentas wrote: »

hey alicat, some harsh words here! I can totally understand how hard it is to contain your excitement...it's your first home! You're perfectly entitled to be busting at the seems with excitement!!!
In terms of "getting ahead" on possible competitors(?!) I know you said getting mortgage will be no prob but trust me...GET AN APPROVAL IN WRITING!
If you're pretty set on this house go in with all the details and get that approval. Your word on being able to get it means nothing to developers and they will want someone serious who is all set up and ready to go.

We were told by our bank BOI mortgage would not be a prob. Put a booking deposit on house (no more than yourself we had our hearts set on this house and had been looking for a while) to be told few days later (after I made many phonecalls) that they wouldn't be able to give it to us after all. I was devastated and thought we lost house. Got approval within 2days from EBS and was over the moon.

So get your approval in writing for that house, have solicitor arranged and put down your (fully refundable if doesn't work out) booking deposit.
Remember NOTHING is definate until final contracts are drawn up.
Try to act swiftly, don't complicate things. If you go around squeeling like a kid in a candy shop you may not be taken seriously! Try to remain cool, calm and collected!:cool:

Good luck and let me know of any developments

Worthwhile advice there, thanks very much That must have been horrible for you to experience though, thinking you'd lost the house Talk about stress!

Kimia

HI Alicat. I can only imagine how excited you are and congratulations with being approved for a mortgage. I think there are some things you should consider but if you are set on buying and not selling on (ie staying in the same house for years, possibly the rest of your life) well then I don't see why not! First though, can you come back to answer this question: If the below happened, would you still be happy in this dream house:

1. Mortgage interest rates putting an extra 300-500 a month on your mortgage
2. Possible bad finish leading to costly repairs
3. Estate not finished for 10+ years
4. No fencing, lawns, communal areas - more like a building site
5. Holes and unfinished pavements/roads - possible dangers for children
6. Social housing leading to an unsavoury element introduced to the estate
7. Being in negative equity almost immediately so unable to sell / move
8. Builder going bust so no recourse if house is badly finished

If you can genuinely say to yourself if any or all of the above happened (which as you can see is not just possible, but very likely) and you're still happy to go ahead with buying the house, well then I say go for it. Pay whatever it is they're asking right now and just pay it off over 35 years or whatever. Best of luck.

Alicat

Kimia wrote: »

Mortgage interest rates putting an extra 300-500 a month on your mortgage

Well that would be a right pain in the backside but I ever expected this to be easy!

Possible bad finish leading to costly repairs

Well it'd obviously depend on what went wrong...If the house fell down I'd be pretty stuck! I do plan on getting it checked over by someone with experience so that any problems can hopefully be spotted and sorted. I wouldn't purchase if there was uncertainty about the quality of the build.

Estate not finished for 10+ years

Again it would depend on how much was unfinished. I mean, if the builder stopped building after this phase, it would be crap to deal with but not the end of the world. If it was the far end of the estate that was unfinished, and we never saw it from our end, it probably wouldn't bother me visually. Obviously the worry would be that short term it would affect the price of our property, but we're not looking for anything short term.

No fencing, lawns, communal areas - more like a building site

We will keep an eye on the estate as the new phase is going up. The finished the first phase well but I wouldn't be impressed if they left the second phase in a state

Holes and unfinished pavements/roads - possible dangers for children

Again, obviously I wouldn't want that, but until we see how things go we can't possibly know

Social housing leading to an unsavoury element introduced to the estate

It happens unforturnately. My aunt lives in a very nice area and a couple of years ago they landed a load of social housing in it and there's not much she can do about it. It does affect the area a bit, visually, but again not the end of the world

Being in negative equity almost immediately so unable to sell / move

The location of the house is perfect for us to get to all of our family and friends so we would cope fine I think. Again, not something you want to happen but sure we can't hide away from every possible risk. Hopefully we could get the house for a very decent price.

Builder going bust so no recourse if house is badly finished

Again, would be absolutely horrible if that were to happen, but if we have most things covered and checked, hopefully anything left that was wrong would be minimal and fixable.

Even the most organised of people have things go wrong, and have some really bad luck. My opinion would be that there's a way around most problems if you're willing to put the time and effort into it. If we buy a house we love, we'll fight tooth and nail for it. If we buy a house that we're 'settling' for, it will be more difficult to muster up the effort.

mikemac

Give the estate agent a tip of 10% of the purchase price, cash, brown envelope.

Should get you moved up the list of buyers

When you complete the purchase, sure give another tip, they deserve it

Alicat

feelingstressed wrote: »

Give the estate agent a tip of 10% of the purchase price, cash, brown envelope.

Should get you moved up the list of buyers

When you complete the purchase, sure give another tip, they deserve it

Excellent, thanks! I'll go get myself some decent brown envelopes this weekend

username123

OP - here are the things I would seriously consider if I were in your position:

An unfinished estate - there is absolutely no way of telling how nice the place or the neighbours are going to be until its been finished. If its finished. I have a number of friends stuck in unfinished estates for the past few years (there is in fact an unfinished part in my own estate thats there over 5 years now cos the builder ran out of money). Plus I have seen people buy in lovely looking places, only for those places to turn into warzones when the social welfare housing goes up, or landlords buy to rent to any old scum they like or the council lob up a halting site net door. So check with the local authority plans to see what the future holds in the immediate area. Check with the builders to know what percentage of the estate will be social housing and where exactly the social housing is. Personally Id never buy off the plans again - Ive been reasonably lucky (well except for the huge negative equity but sure we're all in that boat eh?), but I have seen many many people who have not been so lucky and are stuck with houses they cannot sell because of unsavoury neighbours or unfinished estates.

As well - will the estate be managed or will the council manage it? If its going to be a managed estate you will need to figure in approx 1000 euro a year per term of the mortgage (so possible 30k) in management fees. Its a pain in the butt and Id never again buy in a managed development as a result of it.

You made a couple of interesting points in earlier posts where you referred to the house as a 'long term investment' - you need to remember that investments can go up and down - you could well be stuck with something worth half the current price in a few years time.

You also mention that you have seen nothing else that suits. If you saved for another 2/3 years and rented, you may well be in a better financial position with properties costing less than today so youd have a bigger pool to choose from - just a thought.

Anyway, overall, I personally would advise you NOT to buy in an unfinished estate - its just too risky in the current environment.

Alicat

username123 wrote: »

...Plus I have seen people buy in lovely looking places, only for those places to turn into warzones when the social welfare housing goes up, or landlords buy to rent to any old scum they like or the council lob up a halting site net door. So check with the local authority plans to see what the future holds in the immediate area. Check with the builders to know what percentage of the estate will be social housing and where exactly the social housing is. Personally Id never buy off the plans again - Ive been reasonably lucky (well except for the huge negative equity but sure we're all in that boat eh?), but I have seen many many people who have not been so lucky and are stuck with houses they cannot sell because of unsavoury neighbours or unfinished estates.

I will check up on this as I do think it will definitely be worthwhile. I know that the plans for the field across the road are for a playing fields, not estates.

As well - will the estate be managed or will the council manage it? If its going to be a managed estate you will need to figure in approx 1000 euro a year per term of the mortgage (so possible 30k) in management fees. Its a pain in the butt and Id never again buy in a managed development as a result of it.

It's managed by the council, thankfully!

You also mention that you have seen nothing else that suits. If you saved for another 2/3 years and rented, you may well be in a better financial position with properties costing less than today so youd have a bigger pool to choose from - just a thought.

It is an option. Admittedly not one that we're leaning towards but if we have to we could. I could certainly only stick another year or two max of renting though.

Treehouse72

Alicat, if you look back on the pattern on the last few pages, you'll see that you are thanking and agreeing with posts that are re-enforcing your current thinking. Those which don't, you are contesting (albeit politely I must say).

It is clear to me you are running on pure emotion and almost no logic. To this, I would just say the following. If there was one characteristic of the property bubble it was irrationality. Irrationality is what made people think that buying and selling gaffs made you rich. It's what caused Anglo to piss €30b up against the wall. Caused families to get way, way over their heads in debt. If any of them had just stopped for a moment and thought rationally, all this could have been avoided. But people let emotion and sentiment control their every action.

I would counsel you to look deep into yourself and ask whether you are thinking clearly. You need an out-of-body moment whereby you look down on yourself and really look to see if it is a rational person you see. If you want one piece of evidence that you are not thinking clearly, I just refer you to your opening post. In it, you are concerned about rising prices and queues of people looking to buy your house. In Autumn 2010, these are not rational fears to have! If this is indicative of your wider state of mind, that should cause you to pause and very seriously think again.

Alicat

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Alicat, if you look back on the pattern on the last few pages, you'll see that you are thanking and agreeing with posts that are re-enforcing your current thinking. Those which don't, you are contesting (albeit politely I must say).

I mostly thanked those who answered my initial question, which is only right! I have taken a lot of time to reply to most of the posts, even those which were not relevant to my OP.

I would counsel you to look deep into yourself and ask whether you are thinking clearly. You need an out-of-body moment whereby you look down on yourself and really look to see if it is a rational person you see. If you want one piece of evidence that you are not thinking clearly, I just refer you to your opening post. In it, you are concerned about rising prices and queues of people looking to buy your house. In Autumn 2010, these are not rational fears to have! If this is indicative of your wider state of mind, that should cause you to pause and very seriously think again.

I did clarify later on that I didn't think house prices were going to go up but that in a worst case scenario that would be the only (albeit extremely unlikely) thing to stop us getting the house. It wasn't a genuine concern. I have also stated in a post above (somewhere in the rake of ones I posed this evening) that I fell for the 'spin', as another poster put it, a moment of panic, and was delighted to be reassured that it was extremely unlikely. I can see that now.

I didn't want to get into a discussion about why I picked the house, and why I should or should not buy it. I wanted information and advice about going for the house so I left the other details out of the OP. The posters who decided to answer the question I had not asked (!) have given me things to think about, but have not put me off. If things begin to fall apart of course I will happily let the whole thing go. As I said, I'm not stupid, just inexperienced. I thought the forum would be a good place to start with some advice. I can only learn if I ask any and all questions that I need to, no matter how silly they may seem to everyone else.

Mr. Loverman

The problem I have with you buying this house - apart from all the other problems pointed out earlier in this thread - is if you are your partner break up, you will most likely be left with a house in a ghost estate which is in a lot of negative equity. You will then be trapped.

I know this sounds very negative, but couples break up all the time...