CHEMTRAILS

Anynama141

kryogen wrote: »

Anybody have an opinion on the link between Chemtrails and Morgellpns Disease?

http://aircrap.org/chemtrail-polymers-linked-to-morgellons-disease/33328/

Some info from one point of view on it in the link

This Morgellon's disease?

Mayo Clinic study

A study conducted of 108 patients at the Mayo Clinic was published in Archives of Dermatology on May 16, 2011. The study failed to find evidence of skin infestation despite doing skin biopsies and examining specimens provided by the patients. The study, which was conducted between 2001 and 2007, concluded that the feeling of skin infestation was delusional parasitosis.[40][41][42]

King Mob

kryogen wrote: »

Anybody have an opinion on the link between Chemtrails and Morgellpns Disease?

http://aircrap.org/chemtrail-polymers-linked-to-morgellons-disease/33328/

Some info from one point of view on it in the link

The article makes no mention of how Chemtrails might be linked to any disease, yet it declares readily that rates of chemtrail induced lung cancer are skyrocketing.
Further it claims that all manner of stuff has been found in the fallout of chemtrails, but again no mention of how they determined any of that.

It seems that the link between a disease that is probably psychogenic and a very nonsensical conspiracy theory is being invented wholesale and reinforced by terrible articles like this.

Brown Bomber

BloodBath wrote: »

Why are people even debating this. It's like me posting pictures of clouds and calling them poison gas clouds. When it comes to evidence the chemtrail conspiracy theory ranks as one of the lowest. How people believe this nonsense is beyond me.

From the forum charter.

Where in this post is there any evidence whatsoever of this so called theory. Pictures or videos of contrails are not even circumstantial evidence. If these planes are releasing vast amounts of chemicals as people who believe this nonsense are claiming then where is the evidence for this? This would be very easy to detect and test for.

If this was YET ANOTHER case of governments covertly using civilians as guinea pigs in bio-weapons trials exactly what evidence would you expect to find?

Jonny7

Contrails have been forming in the skies over our heads ever since jet engines were introduced onto most (commercial) aircraft in the 60's - across most of the world.

I think it's fair to say the theory was not really born out of any direct evidence, just people seeing contrails and obviously thinking they looked like some sort of chemical trail.

During the 50's and 60's, the height of the Cold War, governments on both sides of the Atlantic took part in several fairly questionable/unethical studies, some using drugs, others using dispersal agents. Unfortunately some of these get the sensationalist treatment , e.g. the St Louis tests, and provide some fuel to chemtrail CTs

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If this was YET ANOTHER case of governments covertly using civilians as guinea pigs in bio-weapons trials exactly what evidence would you expect to find?

Solid evidence that shows that there is an increase in certain substances that could be bio weapons material in areas where chemtrails are positively being used.
Some way to distinguish positively between chemtrails and contrails.
Detailed mapping these supposed spraying patterns.
Photos of the planes being used for this process when they in an airport.
Photos of the equipment of these planes (or the secret equipment in normal flights)

Or at the very least a coherent, plausible theory that can explain all of the claimed facts.

King Mob

Jonny7 wrote: »

Contrails have been forming in the skies over our heads ever since jet engines were introduced onto most (commercial) aircraft in the 60's - across most of the world.

They were forming even before that:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Fighter_plane_contrails_in_the_sky.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/B-17_Flying_Fortress.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/II_World_War_contrails.jpg
http://www.null-entropy.com/2011/06/german-and-british-contrails-after-a-dogfight/

Brown Bomber

King Mob wrote: »

Solid evidence that shows that there is an increase in certain substances that could be bio weapons material in areas where chemtrails are positively being used.
Some way to distinguish positively between chemtrails and contrails.
Detailed mapping these supposed spraying patterns.
Photos of the planes being used for this process when they in an airport.
Photos of the equipment of these planes (or the secret equipment in normal flights)

Or at the very least a coherent, plausible theory that can explain all of the claimed facts.

Okay. Now could you describe how someone without the necessary clearances would obtain such information.

Brown Bomber

Jonny7 wrote: »

Contrails have been forming in the skies over our heads ever since jet engines were introduced onto most (commercial) aircraft in the 60's - across most of the world.

I think it's fair to say the theory was not really born out of any direct evidence, just people seeing contrails and obviously thinking they looked like some sort of chemical trail.

During the 50's and 60's, the height of the Cold War, governments on both sides of the Atlantic took part in several fairly questionable/unethical studies, some using drugs, others using dispersal agents. Unfortunately some of these get the sensationalist treatment , e.g. the St Louis tests, and provide some fuel to chemtrail CTs

Sensationalist treatment?

You do realise you are talking about a government secretly testing chemical weapons on it's own population?

Jonny7

Pretty thorough explanation here.

http://contrailscience.com/

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Okay. Now could you describe how someone without the necessary clearances would obtain such information.

None of the above things require any clearance.

Finding the chemicals simply requires that you have some method of gathering a sample under a chemtrail, or in an area suspected of being effected by chemtrails. A bucket or similar would work.
Determining the difference between contrails and chemtrails, and tracking the patterns of chemtrails only require that people look up and keep a meticulous record.
And the other two would happen eventually given the vastness of the conspiracy. They would have to use civilian airports and some civilian is going to notice the suspicious activity.

And there is nothing required at all to produce a rational, consistent theory.

Yet, none of these things are being provided...

Brown Bomber

So your suggestion is to put a bucket out. look at the sky and wait.................?

I'm not trying to be flippant but you do realise that if there was such a program in operation again nothing would be left to chance and you certainly wouldn't see any such planes in public airports.

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

So your suggestion is to put a bucket out. look at the sky and wait.................?

Yes, in an area that you suspect is being chemtrailed. This is that some people have already tried to do (and failed miserably.)
If there was some kind of bioweapon material, you should be able to detect it.
Of course there are probably many many other methods of detecting what's in chemtrails, but there's not a single valid reason why they can't be done or would not be effective.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not trying to be flippant but you do realise that if there was such a program in operation again nothing would be left to chance and you certainly wouldn't see any such planes in public airports.

But they must be, at least here. As all of the planes that are being accused of spraying chemtrails all seem to be commercial planes, they must be landing at military airfields with runways large enough to accommodate them.
There is only one in Ireland. People will notice a commercial plane landing there. And the security there is not exactly Area 51.
And again, chemtrail believers have already put forward photos of what they believe to be the insides of chemtrail planes....

And again, there is also no reason at all that someone cannot provide a way of distinguishing between a chemtrail and a contrail or keeping a track of the supposed patterns they make.

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If this was YET ANOTHER case of governments covertly using civilians as guinea pigs in bio-weapons trials exactly what evidence would you expect to find?

Doesn't this CT presume that ALL governments are using ALL civilians as guinea pigs?

Jonny7

King Mob wrote: »

But they must be, at least here. As all of the planes that are being accused of spraying chemtrails all seem to be commercial planes, they must be landing at military airfields with runways large enough to accommodate them.
There is only one in Ireland. People will notice a commercial plane landing there. And the security there is not exactly Area 51.
And again, chemtrail believers have already put forward photos of what they believe to be the insides of chemtrail planes....

And again, there is also no reason at all that someone cannot provide a way of distinguishing between a chemtrail and a contrail or keeping a track of the supposed patterns they make.

It goes much further than that...

In order for the theory to have any truth..

Contrails can't actually exist at all, only chemtrails (acknowledging the existence of contrails and their formation instantly breaks the theory)

That would mean in the airspace over Ireland alone there would have to be a huge amount of disguised secret military aircraft operating .. completely undetected.. for decades..

With no leaks, no whistle-blowing, no investigations, nothing whatsoever.

In total secrecy, by each successive Irish government (taking into account our TD's, probably the most implausible part)

And this replicated in every virtually every country across the world.

On top of all that.. they aren't even trying to hide it any more

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnds4VYislU

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

Doesn't this CT presume that ALL governments are using ALL civilians as guinea pigs?

Not as far as I am concerned. The idea that every plane is involved is absurd. This is seperate to the possibility y that certain governments with a history of indifference (at best ) to human life are not using their massive black budgets which are supplemented with criminal activities to covertly test their latest weapons against unwitting victims.

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Not as far as I am concerned. The idea that every plane is involved is absurd. This is seperate to the possibility y that certain governments with a history of indifference (at best ) to human life are not using their massive black budgets which are supplemented with criminal activities to covertly test their latest weapons against unwitting victims.

But surely all it takes is one European government to notice the conspiracy to blow the whole thing wide open? Something sprayed over Germany will spread to the Czech Republic or Poland, something sprayed over Spain will reach France or Portugal, and so forth.

Brown Bomber

Jonny7 wrote: »

I

Contrails can't actually exist at all, only chemtrails (acknowledging the existence of contrails and their formation instantly breaks the theory)
]

By that logic flowers can't actually exist at all because there are plastic replicas that look similar.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

But surely all it takes is one European government to notice the conspiracy to blow the whole thing wide open? Something sprayed over Germany will spread to the Czech Republic or Poland, something sprayed over Spain will reach France or Portugal, and so forth.

Well no. Things don't always work out like that. For example, Gladio, NATOS secret alliance with Fascist paramilitaries/criminals and terrorists across Europe after WWII was partially exposed by the Italian government in the early 90's decades into it's existence. Now, decades later again we still don't know the full truth.

Anynama141

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Well no. Things don't always work out like that. For example, Gladio, NATOS secret alliance with Fascist paramilitaries/criminals and terrorists across Europe after WWII was partially exposed by the Italian government in the early 90's decades into it's existence. Now, decades later again we still don't know the full truth.

...but one government was all it needed to partially expose it. (And I've little doubt Gladio was a major CT).

How many of the hundreds of global governments have exposed chemtrails?

Jonny7

Brown Bomber wrote: »

By that logic flowers can't actually exist at all because there are plastic replicas that look similar.

Accepting how contrails are formed scientifically with evidence contradicts also selectively supplementing them with something that isn't.

A bit like saying steam forms when running a shower in a cold room (logical, proven) but sometimes it's is a secret government mind control gas being pumped into my house (subjective belief)

That's a better analogy.

Brown Bomber

Anynama141 wrote: »

...but one government was all it needed to partially expose it. (And I've little doubt Gladio was a major CT).

How many of the hundreds of global governments have exposed chemtrails?

The Italian Minister's revelations were an act of self-preservation. He was involved in the covert program himself and he was was trying cover this up after a judge investigating the false-flag terror attacks had found documents that implicated him and his circle.

For arguments sake lets say that the US military in a secret bi-partisan agreement is secretly testing a chemical/bio weapon on it's unsuspecting citizens in a low-income, predominantly non-white residential area as it has done in the past.

This one for example.

A substance to make the skin unbearably sensitive to sunlight
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4174519.stm

Today Obama has given himself the power to decide which US citizens lives and which one's die so testing weapons on them pales in comparison.

Naturally, projects like this are top-secret and compartmentalised with as few people in the know as possible. Assuming that the Russians/Chi
nese/ Israelis / Iranians / British or anyone else either have a Pollard-type spy on the inside or have a method of surveilling the inner sanctums of the US military then it would be insane to blow their agents cover/ jeopardise the surveillance operation to cause a domestic scandal , likely temporary in the manner of the torture memos, Abu Ghraib etc

There is no gain in this. If anything the information would be more useful to an enemy unexposed for blackmail and arm-twisting purposes. You would also feel the wrath of US power.

The other possibility is a whistleblower from the inside. Bradley Manning's treatment for exposing US war crimes while the war criminals are free makes this avenue unlikely going forward.

Brown Bomber

Jonny7 wrote: »

Accepting how contrails are formed scientifically with evidence contradicts also selectively supplementing them with something that isn't.

A bit like saying steam forms when running a shower in a cold room (logical, proven) but sometimes it's is a secret government mind control gas being pumped into my house (subjective belief)

That's a better analogy.

Wait a second. I was responding to your claim that it's an either/or situation with chemtrails and contrails. That the existence of one excludes all possible existence of the other.

Clearly you didn't think that through...

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Wait a second. I was responding to your claim that it's an either/or situation with chemtrails and contrails. That the existence of one excludes all possible existence of the other.

Clearly you didn't think that through...

Well it is in the face of the complete and utter lack of any other supporting evidence for one.
We know that contrails form and we what causes them. But you are suggesting that they are indistinguishable from chemtrails.

Some believers suggest that they are somehow distinguishable, but they always cite things that contrails regularly do, such as persist for hours and spread out.
The fact that contrails exist and behave how they do removes any possible suggestion that chemtrails exist.

So then why put any stock in the existence of chemtrails? Why think they might be a thing in the first place?
How are they different to the mind control gas that comes out of your shower which Jonny suggested?

Brown Bomber

Pretend you've just been tasked by the Pentagon to secretly test their new weapon on US citizens. This weapon needs to be dispersed over a target population within a specific geographic area. You have an unlimited budget .

Can you think of a way to do this that offers better deniability than knocking up a fake commercial plane which would emit the weaponised chemicals in a manner that resembles regular contrails?

Jonny7

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Wait a second. I was responding to your claim that it's an either/or situation with chemtrails and contrails. That the existence of one excludes all possible existence of the other.

Clearly you didn't think that through...

I think you have misunderstood me

One has simple clear evidence, the other has absolutely none

Its like accepting the existence of dinosaurs based on evidence, then accepting that jesus rode one based on none..

Brown Bomber

Jonny7 wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood me

One has simple clear evidence, the other has absolutely none

Its like accepting the existence of dinosaurs based on evidence, then accepting that jesus rode one based on none..

... so the existence of contrails, which I don't believe anyone disputes is actually irrelevant to so-called "chemtrails" i.e. chemical/biological agents secretly emitted as part of some black operation?

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Pretend you've just been tasked by the Pentagon to secretly test their new weapon on US citizens. This weapon needs to be dispersed over a target population within a specific geographic area. You have an unlimited budget .

Can you think of a way to do this that offers better deniability than knocking up a fake commercial plane which would emit the weaponised chemicals in a manner that resembles regular contrails?

Yes.
Chemicals in the water supply.
Cheaper, better spread, less unwanted contamination due to wind or rain. No need for a vast global conspiracy or billions of dollars to maintain a super secret air fleet. And no obvious signs at all, do not need to spend billions making it look like anything. And I probably wouldn't keep doing it for 20 years at high cost for no discernible reason.

So therefore we can put some stock into Jonny's shower idea then?

Brown Bomber

King Mob wrote: »

Yes.
Chemicals in the water supply.
Cheaper, better spread, less unwanted contamination due to wind or rain. No need for a vast global conspiracy or billions of dollars to maintain a super secret air fleet. And no obvious signs at all, do not need to spend billions making it look like anything. And I probably wouldn't keep doing it for 20 years at high cost for no discernible reason.

So therefore we can put some stock into Jonny's shower idea then?

More risky though surely? How are the chemicals made to enter the water supply without involving other people? Where is the extra deniability in putting these chemicals into the water when the source is easily identifiable?

Considerably safer surely to drop them from a plane almost out of sight?

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

More risky though surely? How are the chemicals made to enter the water supply without involving other people?

As opposed to the millions of pilots you'd need for the chemtrail programme who would all realise that something fishy is up?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Where is the extra deniability in putting these chemicals into the water when the source is easily identifiable?

Again, the source of the chemicals is easily identifiable with chemtrails as well.
Or you could also assume that the chemicals are somehow magically undetectable like you are allowing for chemtrails.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Considerably safer surely to drop them from a plane almost out of sight?

Yet somehow people are still able to cop onto the chemtrails because they can see them? If chemtrails are real then the answer is obviously: no it's not safer, it a dead give away.

Jonny's shower theory is much more reasonable than the chemtrail theory. Neither have any supporting evidence or reasoning what so ever.
So why is it ridiculous but chemtrail one not?

Brown Bomber

We are clearly not on the same page here.

I am postulating covert weapons testing by a skeleton staff on a relatively small geographic area with a single, specially designed plane which for all intents and purposes appears to be a regular commercial plane emitting regular-looking contrails. With this plane flying perhaps from military base A to military base B perhaps once a week for a 3 month period.

Also, a small number of scientists observing and analysing the results.