The 'T' in LGBT

LegacyUser

Hey guys,

I've decided to go anonymous for this thread because it's likely to make me look bad in some way, and we all try our best not to allow such things to happen, don't we? Ha!

Anyway, something has been annoying me a bit for quite a while. I am open to the suggestion that I'm being close-minded or unfair with my opinion, but please remember that opinions are not unchanging beliefs and I'm open to discussion and education (hence the thread).

I'm a 27 year old gay man and I'm very interested in gay culture, gay rights, gay art, everything gay! I feel a sense of community when I'm at a gay pride event, or in panti bar or anywhere else where certain members of our community gather. Community is always a good thing - and community identity is important, as well.

What bothers me from time to time is the inclusion of gender in our 'community'. Gender and sexuality obviously are over-lapping areas, in terms of identity and function, but I just don't get why we 'have' to include the trans-community. I am a man, and maybe I've chosen this identity, or it was an identity taught to me, but it is the identity I have. I don't get why I have to explain gender to people just because I'm gay (as in having to explain to my mother what gender dysphoria is, or having to explain why transvestites perform in gay bars, or why pronouns chance when gender changes etc.). I just don't understand why I have to explain things that don't affect me because I've been lumped into that community. I have a lot of time and understanding for these issues but I sometimes get puzzled as to what makes us the 'same' when gender identity and orientation are differentiated sometimes.

I also feel that if I open my mouth about these issues I'm immediately punished. I'm not anti-trans, I'm not transphobic, I just don't understand why they have to be the T in our community, when it is a completely different area and issue.

I also had some strong about the grand marshal of the Pride festival as well. I have heard that her children didn't want her to change her gender on her birth cert and I'd agree with them. Although I completely agree that gender identity shifts, and that it is definitely not a black and white scenario, I also believe that gender can be a medical term. The doctor, on delivering this child, wrote 'M' on the birth cert as this was medical fact. Changing this fact wasn't fair as it is trying to rewrite history. I agree that she can be referred to as a 'she' because she has become a woman in terms of social gender construction - fair enough, but medically speaking at the time of birth this child was a man and changing that on a birth cert that was written up decades ago baffles me. Change your passport and your papers, but changing the birth cert? Is it that necessary?

I don't mean to come across as bigoted or close-minded, guys. I'm open to changing my opinions and to be even more understanding to this part of our world, but I'm holding these views and my PC-inclined mind is saying 'be careful, these opinions are a bit out there'...

What do you all think?

Raz

Nevyn

I think you are young and unaware of what it was historically which had those who are Trans included. Anyone who was not hetro and was not conforming to the binary gender behaviours was all lumped in together and deemed queer and unnatural.

That commonalty and the community which formed looked out for each other and defended each other and worked hard to build and network to support each other.

As being 'gay' has be come more mainstream and is seen as being more 'normal' a lot of
younger people who are not aware of the history and who have not faced the same level of bigotry and frankly fear they don't understand why, and seem to be developing the same opinions which forced everyone who as considered 'queer' together.

As for the issue with the birth cert the historical document still exists there is a register of that kept but there is a new cert issued with the current gender identity on it to enable the person to get passports and other legal documents issued for that gender.

Azure_sky

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I don't get why I have to explain gender to people just because I'm gay

You don't have to.

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I also had some strong about the grand marshal of the Pride festival as well. I have heard that her children didn't want her to change her gender on her birth cert and I'd agree with them. Although I completely agree that gender identity shifts, and that it is definitely not a black and white scenario, I also believe that gender can be a medical term.

Sexuality is also not a black and white issue. What do you mean gender can be a medical term?

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

The doctor, on delivering this child, wrote 'M' on the birth cert as this was medical fact. Changing this fact wasn't fair as it is trying to rewrite history.

So what would a Doctor write on an intersexed childs birth cert. You don't want TS people to have the right to change their birth certs after transitioning, as it "rewrites history". That sounds similiar to an argument a person who wish to deny gays the right to marry,i.e. "Homosexuality is a disorder as it contradicts Darwinian evolution." and "Gays are trying to redefine the definition of marriage." So in essence you're say gays should be given full rights but not transsexuals. I thought we've moved beyond this hypocritical double standards in the LGBT community.

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I agree that she can be referred to as a 'she' because she has become a woman in terms of social gender construction - fair enough, but medically speaking at the time of birth this child was a man and changing that on a birth cert that was written up decades ago baffles me..

They perhaps you should have done some research, prior to posting, on the causes of gender dysphoria. There is, at least, as much evidence for an innate cause to gender dysphoria as there is for homosexuality.

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

Change your passport and your papers, but changing the birth cert? Is it that necessary?

Well if you don't want to be sent to a mans prison if you're convicted of a crime and if you want to marry your partner-then yes.

coolvale

if each group was to be seperate & do there own thing ie gay males , gay females , ts , tv & cross dressers. each seperate group would not have much say in the community when it comes to be recognised such as in legal affairs etc.
theres safety in numbers.

LegacyUser

Thanks for the posts guys, but I don't like that attitude. Done some research before posting? Don't give me that patronizing BS. I am a researcher by profession, but I find the best information out there is usually from the horse's mouth (asking you guys is my preference, tbh).

As I emphasized in my post I understand my beliefs aren't 'right' or 'fully developed' hence looking for information/ personal experiences.

I thought the LBGT community had gotten over themselves.

LegacyUser

"Sexuality is also not a black and white issue. What do you mean gender can be a medical term?"

Gender is used in medicine to define the biological sex of a person. Doctors often use the term? Maybe I'm wrong.

"So what would a Doctor write on an intersexed childs birth cert."

I'm not a Doctor, ask one.

"You don't want TS people to have the right to change their birth certs after transitioning, as it "rewrites history". That sounds similiar to an argument a person who wish to deny gays the right to marry,i.e. "Homosexuality is a disorder as it contradicts Darwinian evolution." and "Gays are trying to redefine the definition of marriage." So in essence you're say gays should be given full rights but not transsexuals. I thought we've moved beyond this hypocritical double standards in the LGBT community."

Wrong, imo. It is rewriting history. Gender is a socially constructed identity and can be biological. In terms of medicine you are either male or female at time of birth - gender identity can and does change over time (as does sexual preference) but unlike sexual orientation (which is unidentifiable in children who've just been born) it is scientific fact that a person is biologically female or male after birth (intersexed is another issue altogether, one I know even less about but would love to learn!)


"They perhaps you should have done some research, prior to posting, on the causes of gender dysphoria. There is, at least, as much evidence for an innate cause to gender dysphoria as there is for homosexuality."

Patronizing, unhelpful and disheartening. If you re-read my post I am genuinely looking for people to identify thinking errors and emphasized my desire to be made aware of them, the other posters have successfully done that - you haven't. If you're unwilling to educate then don't post, I'm not forcing you to share your opinions but asked for them so don't give me that.

"Well if you don't want to be sent to a mans prison if you're convicted of a crime and if you want to marry your partner-then yes."

Logical, you ended on a good note. This makes sense to me and will solidify other opinions I had.

Chuchoter

Personally, I disagree with crossdressers and transvestites being included under the T and the drag queens you see at pride really give everyone a bad name even though they have every right to go out dressed like that. I realize though that transgender people in general have a much harder time than the average gay person. They did so much through history helping the gay rights movement, way more then was proportionate for their numbers but they're too small to get any transrights by themselves so its only fair we as a gay community include them. If you go by terminology, fine gender and sexuality have 0 to do with eachother, but historically and culturally we are all linked. Look at the stonewall riots. Lot of TG people there

As well as this, TS people were always the gender they transitioned to, so changing the birth cert is correcting an historical inaccuracy

You don't really come across as bigoted rather than uneducated in the matter. Go read the numerous TS threads on AH and you'll find out more about the subject.

Annasopra

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

Anyway, something has been annoying me a bit for quite a while. I am open to the suggestion that I'm being close-minded or unfair with my opinion, but please remember that opinions are not unchanging beliefs and I'm open to discussion and education (hence the thread).

I'm a 27 year old gay man and I'm very interested in gay culture, gay rights, gay art, everything gay! I feel a sense of community when I'm at a gay pride event, or in panti bar or anywhere else where certain members of our community gather. Community is always a good thing - and community identity is important, as well.

traditionally gay people and transsexuals were a closely bound community because they shared so many common issues/problems

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

What bothers me from time to time is the inclusion of gender in our 'community'. Gender and sexuality obviously are over-lapping areas, in terms of identity and function, but I just don't get why we 'have' to include the trans-community. I am a man, and maybe I've chosen this identity, or it was an identity taught to me, but it is the identity I have. I don't get why I have to explain gender to people just because I'm gay (as in having to explain to my mother what gender dysphoria is, or having to explain why transvestites perform in gay bars, or why pronouns chance when gender changes etc.). I just don't understand why I have to explain things that don't affect me because I've been lumped into that community. I have a lot of time and understanding for these issues but I sometimes get puzzled as to what makes us the 'same' when gender identity and orientation are differentiated sometimes.

You don't really have to explain those in detail at all - You're not obliged to - You could say something really simple like; well actually I'm gay and transsexuality is entirely separate - It doesn't effect me, however gay people and transsexuals are part of the same community because we shared a common history as being abnormal and freakish. In some ways are issues are similar in that we have to face issues of coming out and of discrimination.

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I also feel that if I open my mouth about these issues I'm immediately punished. I'm not anti-trans, I'm not transphobic, I just don't understand why they have to be the T in our community, when it is a completely different area and issue.

LGB people and T people share many common issues such as coming out and discrimination. It is completely different while at the same time we share a lot of the same problems and issues

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I also had some strong about the grand marshal of the Pride festival as well. I have heard that her children didn't want her to change her gender on her birth cert and I'd agree with them. Although I completely agree that gender identity shifts, and that it is definitely not a black and white scenario, I also believe that gender can be a medical term. The doctor, on delivering this child, wrote 'M' on the birth cert as this was medical fact. Changing this fact wasn't fair as it is trying to rewrite history. I agree that she can be referred to as a 'she' because she has become a woman in terms of social gender construction - fair enough, but medically speaking at the time of birth this child was a man and changing that on a birth cert that was written up decades ago baffles me. Change your passport and your papers, but changing the birth cert? Is it that necessary?

Yes it is necessary see this http://www.pfc.org.uk/gender/its-not-just-our-problem

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I don't mean to come across as bigoted or close-minded, guys. I'm open to changing my opinions and to be even more understanding to this part of our world, but I'm holding these views and my PC-inclined mind is saying 'be careful, these opinions are a bit out there'...

What do you all think?

Raz

I've consistently fought for T to be included even though I don't identify as T or fully understand T because I feel that we already share spaces, common causes, common issues. Part of me also feels united with transgender activists in their fights. Fights for legal transgender recognition are similar in my mind to legal fights that LGB people have fought

Links234

GoingAnonymous22 wrote: »

I also feel that if I open my mouth about these issues I'm immediately punished.

Well anyone who opens their mouth about any issues opens themselves up to opposing opinions, don't they? but I'm not going to try to punish you about asking these questions, or call you transphobic. I don't believe that people should be afraid to ask questions like this, or air opinions as long as they're honest and not going out of the way to be offensive.

and it's much better to have a conversation about this than stay silent, because then we can have some discourse about it

one way we can look at it is, what if you had said "Why the L in LGBT?"
I mean, you're a gay man, what do you have in common with lesbian women? why do you have to include them in the community? or you might think you have to explain to people about lesbians when they don't effect you? but you probably don't think about that, you probably focus on the similarities, right? the same goals and rights, like marriage equality

We should be focused on the similarities, and the same goals. trans people face the same issues of social stigma, coming out, prejudice, lack of marriage equality effects us too, many of us need trans friendly doctors. some trans people can be gay or lesbian too. I identify as lesbian myself. there's a lot of places where we differ, but a lot of places where we're the same and it's where we're the same that's important.

another way we can look at this is from a scientific view
There is a lot on boards about science on transsexuality and what causes it and how there are differences in the brain. This is the part where it might get a little controversial, but I put it to you that gay men and transsexual women are actually more similar than you might think on a biological level. this was posted on another thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVwjCppq82c

like the tests that John Barrowman does that show his brain working in more typically female ways, it could be something similar to what happens to trans people.

there's a great video that TrannyGirl15 posted on youtube about this very subject, where she talks about the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_dMPJ_Vj0

now, I don't really know much about the science, I'll always defer to people who know their science here on boards, but for now maybe it's worth considering from the point of view that ALL LGBT people are united by this particular brain difference? I don't know if I'm really phrasing that the best way, but I hope you get what I mean.

deirdre_dub

As a trans person, I'm also sick of having to constantly explain that I'm not gay, so you are not alone in being tired of having to explain that you are not in another part of the LGBT community.

As for the medical facts surrounding the circumstances of my birth - the doctor clearly made a mistake when he said I was male. Of course, he can be forgiven for that, as the technology still doesn't exist to determine one's brain structure at birth. So changing my birth cert isn't changing history - it is correcting a mistake made shortly after my birth that has huge detrimental consequences for me.

As for the inclusion of T in LGBT - is a pre-op male-to-female transsexual who is attracted to men gay or straight? Because of her anatomy, some see her as gay, because of her gender identity, others see her as straight, and yet others see her as gay until she has the operation, whereupon she becomes straight. So you see that it isn't possible to be a challenge to society's attitudes towards gender without also being a challenge to attitude around sexual orientation. And that, IMNSHO, is why the T belongs in LGBT.

LegacyUser

Loving these posts, guys. This is exactly what I needed/ wanted! I now understand this way better.

Big love to the T!

Links234

Anon2020 wrote: »

Wrong, imo. It is rewriting history. Gender is a socially constructed identity and can be biological. In terms of medicine you are either male or female at time of birth - gender identity can and does change over time (as does sexual preference) but unlike sexual orientation (which is unidentifiable in children who've just been born) it is scientific fact that a person is biologically female or male after birth (intersexed is another issue altogether, one I know even less about but would love to learn!)

I've bolded the two parts there that you are completely wrong about, gender is NOT socially constructed, and someone's gender identity also does NOT change over time. the amount of scientific evidence that has backed up gender identity being hardwired is huge.

the extremely tragic case of David Reimer proved that someone's gender identity cannot be changed and that it is not socially constructed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

WATCH THIS VIDEO: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3767337480016853964#

Azure_sky

Anon2020 wrote: »

Gender is used in medicine to define the biological sex of a person. Doctors often use the term? Maybe I'm wrong.

Sometimes they are used interchanabley. Technically sex refers to the physical sex one is born with and gender refers to the identity and behaviour related to the two sexes.



I'm not a Doctor, ask one.

Glad you see sex and gender are not as black and white as you thought initially.



Wrong, imo. It is rewriting history. Gender is a socially constructed identity and can be biological.

Gender is primarily innate, it's certainly not a social construct, though it seems en vongue to claim its due to to extreme third wave feminism. Science says otherwise.



In terms of medicine you are either male or female at time of birth - gender identity can and does change over time (as does sexual preference) but unlike sexual orientation (which is unidentifiable in children who've just been born) it is scientific fact that a person is biologically female or male after birth (intersexed is another issue altogether, one I know even less about but would love to learn!)

It's not as black and white as you think. Male to female transsexuals have female neurons in their brains.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034






Patronizing, unhelpful and disheartening. If you re-read my post I am genuinely looking for people to identify thinking errors and emphasized my desire to be made aware of them, the other posters have successfully done that - you haven't. If you're unwilling to educate then don't post, I'm not forcing you to share your opinions but asked for them so don't give me that.

To be fair, you pretty much said that transsexuals should not be entitled to full rights-and this is coming from a gay man, who I pressume supports full gay rights. I actually did correct your thinking errors. It's also understandable that one would be a bit miffed, and exasperated when a gay male of all people makes an argument for denying TS rights.

L.Jenkins

OP, have you formulated a way to approach the subject to gather the information you want. I don't know if people would be offended if you personally asked for experiences.

deirdre_dub

Anon2020 wrote: »

Gender is a socially constructed identity and can be biological. In terms of medicine you are either male or female at time of birth - gender identity can and does change over time (as does sexual preference) but unlike sexual orientation (which is unidentifiable in children who've just been born) it is scientific fact that a person is biologically female or male after birth

You seem to be making the classic mistake of assuming that your gender is exclusively determined by what's between your legs. Wrong! Much of gender is what's in your brain - men and women have different emotional lives and thought processes, and those things are in the brain.

(intersexed is another issue altogether, one I know even less about but would love to learn!)

Transsexualism can probably be thought of as being a type of intersexism.

LegacyUser

deirdre_dub wrote: »

You seem to be making the classic mistake of assuming that your gender is exclusively determined by what's between your legs. Wrong! Much of gender is what's in your brain - men and women have different emotional lives and thought processes, and those things are in the brain.
Transsexualism can probably be thought of as being a type of intersexism.

No, deirdre_dub, I blatantly said that gender is neither black nor white and that there's more to gender identity than male or female (in my view, anyway). Also, don't give me that, society tells me that because of what I've between my legs should suggest I'm straight, but I'm not, so I can relate to that. Just because I'm not educated in this area doesn't mean I'm not able to be empathetic or understand this.

Apart from around 5 posts this topic has just turned into a complete gang-up and this is why I'm glad I went anon. You guys must realise that my initial topic was as respectful as it could have been, and I even commented saying I know my views aren't fair and that I want to change them.

I think this is the best way for me to learn. As one poster rightly said, this is how misconceptions are dealt with and ironed out. If I was to continue to smile and 'accept' the Trans-community without fully understanding some key issues they face I am being PC but secretly bigoted. Same goes for people who say they don't mind gay men but 'wouldn't want to see them kissing or holding hands' etc. I'd prefer to be honest and upfront and be challenged than continue having false ideas about the community at large, I think this is fair enough and also think it's pretty decent of me to be even bothering to try and educate myself. I could, like many people, be apathetic about trans issues as they don't affect me personally, but I'm making an effort. This should be encouraged.

Also, guys, maybe some of you should read Judith Butler who is a lesbian queer theorist. She has written a lot about how gender is a social construction (which, in my view, it is). Gender identity is something we are taught, not something we develop ourselves.

Eebs

Anon2222 wrote: »

No, deirdre_dub, I blatantly said that gender is neither black nor white and that there's more to gender identity than male or female (in my view, anyway). Also, don't give me that, society tells me that because of what I've between my legs should suggest I'm straight, but I'm not, so I can relate to that. Just because I'm not educated in this area doesn't mean I'm not able to be empathetic or understand this.

Apart from around 5 posts this topic has just turned into a complete gang-up and this is why I'm glad I went anon. You guys must realise that my initial topic was as respectful as it could have been, and I even commented saying I know my views aren't fair and that I want to change them.

I think this is the best way for me to learn. As one poster rightly said, this is how misconceptions are dealt with and ironed out. If I was to continue to smile and 'accept' the Trans-community without fully understanding some key issues they face I am being PC but secretly bigoted. Same goes for people who say they don't mind gay men but 'wouldn't want to see them kissing or holding hands' etc. I'd prefer to be honest and upfront and be challenged than continue having false ideas about the community at large, I think this is fair enough and also think it's pretty decent of me to be even bothering to try and educate myself. I could, like many people, be apathetic about trans issues as they don't affect me personally, but I'm making an effort. This should be encouraged.

Also, guys, maybe some of you should read Judith Butler who is a lesbian queer theorist. She has written a lot about how gender is a social construction (which, in my view, it is). Gender identity is something we are taught, not something we develop ourselves.

Thing is, people get antsy cus it's really not our job to justify it constantly. I can't tell you just how many times I've had this conversation. The first time I was polite, the 4th time I was slightly frustrated but polite, the 20th time I was probably curt and rude... now I barely bother.

The main points are this:

Homophobia is gender based.
LGBs and Ts all get teased not just because of their sexual orientation but because of their gender presentation. Your gender is what makes your sexuality relevant.
As a visual trans person I only ever got called dyke and fag - rarely tranny.

History
You know all about that so I won't bother.

Homophobia and Transphobia is based in breaking a 'norm'.
The very basic norm being - you grow up, you marry a woman if you're a man and have babies.

Trans encompasses a wide range of people. Some of whom may consider themselves both as part of the gay community and as a part of the Trans community.

Yes there are Trans people who never want a part with the LGB community and don't see the relevance. Yes there are gay people who don't see the relevance. I see the constant commonalities. I know the 'safe' bars and places to go with my trans friends are usually LGB. I have found comfort and solace in transitioning within the gay community. Meeting butches, drag queens, camp men, TG, ts, tv trans* individuals who all experience their gender differently and who I wouldn't have met if I hadn't been involved in the community.


Ok, you don't get trans people. Fine.
By arguing that gender is socially constructed again and again to a trans(sexual) person you're tactually erasing that persons identity.
Something most trans people on the board have been fighting tooth and nail to get other people to recognize.
When you say things like that, and then say 'but you're all ganging up on me it's not fair' it's because you don't know what it's like to meet someone and have to try emphatically make them recognize you for who you are. It's time consuming, energy draining and then when you finally get there - someone says something flippant like 'all gender is socially constructed' and basically theoretically argues against your reality. Does that make sense? You can say 'all gender is constructed and it's not important and etc. etc.' because you haven't (perhaps) had to wrestle with it, convince the world of it, convince several doctors, your friends, your family, your coworkers, people you met once at a christmas party - literally EVERYONE you ever knew and most you will know - that your gender isn't a figment of your imagination.

I think gender is probably both socially constructed and biological. I have heard of Judith Butler (and that's a long story in itself). there are ways to talk about gender without invalidating trans peoples experiences.

The frank matter is that gender is real in the world we live in. If it didn't matter - I never would have transitioned. I would have told everyone I was a boy today (and maybe tommorrow) and no one would have cared. Gender is here to stay for the moment and while it is there are people who have the emphatic and deep need to transition from one to the other just as you have the deep and emphatic need NOT TO.

You don't have to get it, just accept it.

Links234

Anon2222 wrote: »

Gender identity is something we are taught, not something we develop ourselves.

just like homosexuality is a lifestyle choice?

see how offensive that is?

Nevyn

Anon2222 wrote: »

Also, guys, maybe some of you should read Judith Butler who is a lesbian queer theorist. She has written a lot about how gender is a social construction (which, in my view, it is). Gender identity is something we are taught, not something we develop ourselves.

I honestly think it is a little from column a and a lil from column b.
We have an inherent gender identity and then as well there is a socail construct of being a certain way if you are of either gender.


I am female, my physical sex matches my gender identity but I do not conform to the socail construct of what is considered to be female/feminine.

I have kids and there are certain behaviours and traits which a child will have inherently and others are learned.

Links234

I think we need to make a distinction between gender identity and gender norms, and gender norms being the aspect that is learned.

Eebs

You know, I was thinking about this on the way home and your original 'problems' you had at the beginning of this thread.

All of your 'non-pc' thoughts regarding trans people would be gone if you just followed one very simple thought.

Trans identities are real and valid.


Example:
Birth certs shouldn't be changed because they don't reflect reality if they're changed.

Solution example:
I am a trans man. My identity as a trans man is real and valid. I was born with everyone thinking I was a girl but I was really a boy who was born with girl anatomy. I need to change my birth cert to reflect who I really am, not what people thought I was at the time.

If you just simply believed that trans people were actually who they say they are then everything would be sorted really.

Also, you say in your original post you don't want to speak for trans people or explain it. You really don't have to. Just like we don't have to. Including T in LGB doesn't make you obliged to defend trans people, it'd just be nice. It really is just to allow people who do feel a part of both worlds to have that.

You don't have to be a trans ally. You can hold these views. It doesn't mean I have to like them, or not argue with them or stop you having your rights. Just like you shouldn't stop me having my rights, that effect me (not you) no matter how you feel. Just like Brenda Power shouldn't stop gay people having the right to marry, because it doesn't effect her, no matter how she feels.

And I also want to say thanks to all the LGB trans allys there are out there. A nice (non-boards) example would be CanuckJacq who writes for Gaelick.

Goodshape

Links234 wrote: »

there's a great video that TrannyGirl15 posted on youtube about this very subject, where she talks about the same thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH_dMPJ_Vj0

That answered (or at least discussed) a lot of what I was thinking about in my "Transitioning for the wrong reasons?" thread. In retrospect, I wish I hadn't use the word wrong. "Somewhere along the spectrum but not quite transexual" is what I think I was trying to get at.

Must show it to my friend anyway

Azure_sky

Anon2222 wrote: »

Also, guys, maybe some of you should read Judith Butler who is a lesbian queer theorist. She has written a lot about how gender is a social construction (which, in my view, it is). Gender identity is something we are taught, not something we develop ourselves.

If that were true then David Reimer would be alive today. I also bet she was one of these extreme third wave feminists, some of which are intolerant of woman who wish to adhere to traditional gender roles. Gender is predicated partly by biological, and partly by environmental factors. The brains of men and women are different, science has proved this. I would have more faith in an actual scientist, who uses the scientific method and relies on empirical evidence than any theorist, as it's not hard science-it's philosophy with the trappings of science.
Gender is not a wholly social construct, all you need do is look at the animal kingdom.

Links234

Goodshape wrote: »

That answered (or at least discussed) a lot of what I was thinking about in my "Transitioning for the wrong reasons?" thread. In retrospect, I wish I hadn't use the word wrong. "Somewhere along the spectrum but not quite transexual" is what I think I was trying to get at.

Must show it to my friend anyway

oh cool, glad you found it interesting

you might want to have a look at some of her other videos, she's got a lot things to say that you might find of interest too.

Eebs

Butler is considered a trans ally, to be clear. How people tend to interpret her work isn't always helpful though. But that could be said of anyones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler#Undoing_Gender_.282004.29

Azure_sky

Eebs wrote: »

Butler is considered a trans ally, to be clear. How people tend to interpret her work isn't always helpful though. But that could be said of anyones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Butler#Undoing_Gender_.282004.29

She may well be a trans ally, but it is possible that she is using the "phenomenon" of trans people to further her theory that gender does not exist, as in anyones gender may be changed at will. Which I find strange, as from what I gather the vast majority of trans people are not comfortable within their born sex, hence the gender dysphoria-and if as Butler argues, that gender is a social construct, then by her logic it follows transgenders are either mentally ill or simply want to transition for social benefits-as innate gender, according to Butler, does not exist.

EDIT:Just looked at the wiki article and my assumption was right, she is a third wave feminist. lol

Azure_sky

Anyway, here's an article by an actual scientist with PhD level credentials, who explains how biological gender/brain sex works.
In essense the male and female brain evolved differently over aeons due to the role in early history of women being rearers of children and men being hunters. Of course today we have transcended such roles, which is a good thing, but those evolutionary traits in the male and female brains still exist. Of course there are always anomalies.
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html

Links234

Azure_sky wrote: »

She may well be a trans ally, but it is possible that she is using the "phenomenon" of trans people to further her theory that gender does not exist. Which I find strange, as from what I gather the vast majority of trans people are not comfortable within their born sex, hence the gender dysphoria-and if as Butler argues, that gender is a social construct, then by her logic it follows transgenders are either mentally ill or simply want to transition for social benefits-as innate gender, according to Butler, does not exist.

Well, keep in mind that gender identity as something hardwired into the brain from birth is something that's a fairly recent development in medical science, like only in the last 10 years. the transgender genes were only discovered in 2008. and despite this people are still very ignorant of the facts.

also, we have to understand that "gender identity as a social construct" was not just some crackpot theory, but being presented by Dr. John Money as being scientific fact when he falsely claimed that David Reimer was living a happy life as a young woman and completely oblivious that he had ever been a boy. it was seen as a real scientific claim because of Dr. Money's highly public claims that his John/Joan experiment had worked when it didn't.

gender as a social construct was taken extremely seriously by a lot of people for a very long time

Judith Butler still has a lot of very relevant things to say, so don't dismiss her

Azure_sky

Links234 wrote: »

Judith Butler still has a lot of very relevant things to say, so don't dismiss her

It's not just the finding of the transgender gene which give credence to the biological role of gender though, publications of the difference between the male and female brains were known well over a decade before the the finding of the transgender gene. Still, it would be interesting to know what Judith Butler would make of all this new evidence which seems to negate her theory on gender as a wholly social construct.

Eebs

Azure_sky wrote: »

It's not just the finding of the transgender gene which give credence to the biological role of gender though, publications of the difference between the male and female brains were known well over a decade before the the finding of the transgender gene. Still, it would be interesting to know what Judith Butler would make of all this new evidence which seems to negate her theory on gender as a wholly social construct.

I'm going to keep this brief because I'm not hijacking this thread for a 'brain sex' debate.

Current scientific evidence does not negate queer theory.
Simple as.

deirdre_dub

Anon2222 wrote: »

No, deirdre_dub, I blatantly said that gender is neither black nor white and that there's more to gender identity than male or female (in my view, anyway).

You also said -

Although I completely agree that gender identity shifts, and that it is definitely not a black and white scenario, I also believe that gender can be a medical term. The doctor, on delivering this child, wrote 'M' on the birth cert as this was medical fact. ... In terms of medicine you are either male or female at time of birth.

I was trying to point out that the "medical term" called gender is, itself, not black-or-white, and hence the writing of "M" on the birth cert couldn't be considered to be a definitive statement of fact. You aren't either male or female at the time of birth (e.g. genderqueer, intersexed), and even if you are, which gender you are isn't always determinable at the time of birth.

You acknowledge that there is the medical grey area of intersexed people, where what the doctor writes on the birth cert is basically not much more than a guess. So it is for transgendered people - I personally see my condition as a type of intersexism, and so what the doctor wrote on my birth cert shouldn't be and cannot be seen as a definitive statement of fact. And it certainly shouldn't be allowed to have such a huge influence on my life now that the truth of my gender is known.

Apart from around 5 posts this topic has just turned into a complete gang-up and this is why I'm glad I went anon. You guys must realise that my initial topic was as respectful as it could have been, and I even commented saying I know my views aren't fair and that I want to change them.

And I feel that my responses were as respectful as possible. I said that you seem to be making the mistake of assuming that gender is between the legs - I deliberately put the word "seem" in there, because I knew I might be reading what you wrote incorrectly. I am trying to understand where you are coming from too, and if I got it wrong, so be it. But saying that I'm ganging up on you when, in fact, it is the reality of my life that is being brought into question, isn't helpful.

Links234

I don't know if the OP is still going to be posting in this thread or not, but I hope you'll continue the discussion

it's not particularly fair to say that people are ganging up on you either, I think a lot of people are being very respectful in turn, but you have to understand that some of the things you are saying are very offensive. telling us repeatedly that gender identity is something that we are taught really will get people's backs up, and if you want to understand, then look at it from our perspective. how would you feel if someone insisted your sexual orientation was taught? or was the result of a bad upbringing? that it was a deviant lifestyle you were tricked into?

if you want to understand, then lets continue the discussion.