Heating won't come on?

Fittle

I turned on my heating last night for the first time since June and nothing!

The flame comes on in the boiler, but not one radiator got hot or even warm after about 15 minutes.
I tried it again this morning, and it's the same.

Any ideas??? Do all the rads need to be bled, or should I ring Bord G?
Thanks

Micky Dolenz

Type of boiler, make and model?

Fittle

Sorry, Sime System Format. Less than 2yrs old.

Micky Dolenz

I was thinking it may be your pump, but the boiler is a system boiler with built in pump and water flow switch. the boiler would not fire unless the pump was running.

Have you Zones? can you heat your hot water without the boiler heating rads? are you getting hot water?

Fittle

I have two switches - one for hot water, one for heating. I switched off the boiler once I realised the heating wasn't coming on. Should I just try the hot water switch?

Micky Dolenz

Yes,

see if boiler runs and if pipes that enter the side of the cylinder parallel to each other heat up.

Fittle

Turned on HW switch only, flame is on and pipes are hot.....??? I've had the emrsion on all evening, so water is hot anyway, but obviously the gas is heating my water if pipes are hot???

Micky Dolenz

Ok, good.

The switch that turns on the heating is wired to a motorised valve. It will be stuck on the pipework around the boiler or in the hotpress and look like this:




Head may be different colour, see anything like that on the boiler pipework?

Fittle

Theres a thing in the hotpress called 'Myson power extra' like that, but it's white plastic on top - manual and autmatic thingy at bottom, the black switch on at automatic...is this it???

THere's only pipes around the boiler..

Micky Dolenz

Yes, it should look like below. You may have move than one. but we will try with this one first. See the lever at the front, pull it to the far right, can you feel resistance as if the valve is opening, if so, hook lever into catch to hold open.


If you there is no resistance when you move lever, it may not be the valve that controls the heating but the one that controls the hot water.

















.

Fittle

Yes, thats the one i have. I've pulled it to the right (where it says manual) and I can hear water flowing - there is resistance.
But I can't catch it anywhere?
do I just hold it - it slides back to auto if I let go???

Fittle

Actually, the one i'm moving the switch on has boiling hot pipes conected to it, so Im guessing thats the hot water one???

I've just spotted another one at the back of the boiler..wud it be that one?????

Micky Dolenz

Fittle wrote: »

Yes, thats the one i have. I've pulled it to the right (where it says manual) and I can hear water flowing - there is resistance.
But I can't catch it anywhere?
do I just hold it - it slides back to auto if I let go???

Ok, keep holding it :P

There is a little catch about three quaters way across the valve you click into it by pushing the lever arm down.

Before you do that, turn on the heating switch, does the light on the valve come on? have you still resistance at the lever arm? if so, it's a new motorised valve head.

Fittle

Sorry, I'm a bit confused now:p

Do I need to do this on the thing at the back (the other box), or the one at the front that had the hot pipes going into it???

And do I just leave it in the 'catch' and should the heating come on then???

Really appreciate this, btw;)

Micky Dolenz

Forget the hot pipes for now, i was just trying to establish was the boiler working correctly and if so it would point to an external part. The motorised valve at boiler may be the one you are looking for.

If you open the valve the heating will work, however you will lose control over it, as in, room stat will no longer control it.

Fittle

Ok.

I've turned the heating switch on and there is no resistance on either of the two box things. Both lights are on though.

Micky Dolenz

Interesting.

The pipes around the boiler that are attached to the valve are they hot. As hot as the one's at the hotpress.

Fittle

Sorry, I might not have explainedmyself properly.

Both valves are in the hotpress.

There are no valves around the boiler.

Both lights are on, on both valves.

The pipe going into one of them (the one at the front) is hot. The pipe going into the other one at the back, is cold.

Micky Dolenz

Ok,There is a valve closed on the cold line, this could be a manual valve or while the motorised head is operating the valve spindle isn't turning freely.

Any chance of picture of hot press?

Fittle

I've taken a photo...can't figure out how to upload it though???

Micky Dolenz

Have trouble with that myself.

Turn off the heating switch, can you feel resistance across valve now, the one with the light off? can you hear water running through pipe, does it get hot?

Fittle

http://www.flickr.com/photos/53486927@N04/4942569613/

Think this is a picture

I've turned the heating switch off and both lights go off.

The HW valve is the front one (I've just turned on the HW only) and the CH is the back one.

When I turn off everything, there is resistance on both of them....

Micky Dolenz

What happens if you just turn on heating only? Will just the back one light up?

Fittle

Nope.

When I turn CH on, the HW comes on automatically with it.

I can only turn on the HW on it's own on the switch, or both come on together.

So when I turn the CH on, both lights come on....

Micky Dolenz

Ok, turn it all on. See where the pipe that has the valve on it, follow it to cylinder and see where it exits down below, there should be a red handle valve on that bottom pipe. Close it fully, screw down.

Now check the pipe with the double elbow and feel if temperature changes. Feel this pipe and move lever on back pipe MV

Sparkpea

/me is wondering what the pipe with the non return valve on it is doing

BostonB

I had the same last night too. I'm wondering would a water pressure drop in the mains be a factor? Though I didn't notice it at the taps.

Micky Dolenz

Sparkpea wrote: »

/me is wondering what the pipe with the non return valve on it is doing

My money says it's a "semi" sealed system and that is cold feed to heating from storage tank.

Sparkpea

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

My money says it's a "semi" sealed system and that is cold feed to heating from storage tank.

that was my fear... silly way to do it imo.. what if the vent blocked (it does happen!)

yoshytoshy

It's fairly obvious something is wrong with the pipework.

I know blokes working at this for years and make the same mistake:D

Sparkpea

Sparkpea wrote: »

that was my fear... silly way to do it imo.. what if the vent blocked (it does happen!)

There is no open vent it's a semi sealed, it would have a blow off.

Sparkpea

gary71 wrote: »

There is no open vent it's a semi sealed, it would have a blow off.

then I'm not sure I've seen a semi system before

Micky Dolenz

Sparkpea wrote: »

then I'm not sure I've seen a semi system before

Aren't you the lucky one then.

Normally have a half inch pipe from cold water storage tank (plumbing water, shudder) and connect to the heating system via a NRV, acting like a filling loop.

it would have an expansion vessel like a sealed system. I am pretty sure that type of system is illegal as there is a chance of cross contamination.

The check valve stops the movement of water/expansion going back up the cold feed, keeping any pressure generated in the boiler/heating system, it will work like a tank fed sealed system. Biggest problem i come across is as it's not a recognized system design by manufactures, installers cut out or bypass the low pressure switch leaving no protection or insurance cover if the check valve sticks and stops the flow of the cold feed leaving a boiler to fire dry, Gary.

JohnnieK

Take a look at the pic. The heating zone valve is at the back. Get a flat head screw driver and take the actuator off (box) and manually open the valve with your fingers or a pliers if your a fairy (make sure the boiler is on) if it still dose not work then you have an air lock. Take a look at the 2 90o bends above the zone valve that point there would be a model for an air lock is the system lost pressure for any reason, ther should have been an auotmatic air vent fitted there.

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

Biggest problem i come across is as it's not a recognized system design by manufactures, installers cut out or bypass the low pressure switch leaving no protection or insurance cover if the check valve sticks and stops the flow of the cold feed leaving a boiler to fire dry, Gary.

how many time have you seen that? I would think interfering with the safety features on appliances is rare enough.

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

how many time have you seen that? I would think interfering with the safety features on appliances is rare enough.

:eek:Every boiler i have worked on fitted to a tank fed semi sealed system has had the low pressure switch(when fitted) linked out to enable it to work on that type of system in the first place, because of this if a boiler runs dry and causes any damage then the house holder can have a lot of problems with a claim as would anyone who worked on it and didn't spot the safety device bridged out, so keep a eye out for it, but i wouldn't worry to much how often does the check valve stick:)

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

:eek:Every boiler i have worked on fitted to a tank fed semi sealed system has had the low pressure switch(when fitted) linked out to enable it to work on that type of system in the first place, because of this if a boiler runs dry and causes any damage then the house holder can have a lot of problems with a claim as would anyone who worked on it and didn't spot the safety device bridged out, so keep a eye out for it, but i wouldn't worry to much how often does the check valve stick:)

That is shocking.

Cross contamination is my biggest worry. It's fine if you have a pumped break tank but a cold water storage tank is not a break tank as I am sure you know.

It costs less in time and material to have a filling loop, it really baffles me.

I can't get my head around it either, as you wrote it's harder to fit a semi sealed system than a filling loop, but not many installers are writing up the boilers for a bridged out safety device when they service these boilers and are leaving themselves wide open for any problems that may occur in the future.

JohnnieK

gary71 wrote: »

I can't get my head around it either, as you wrote it's harder to fit a semi sealed system than a filling loop, but not many installers are writing up the boilers for a bridged out safety device when they service these boilers and are leaving themselves wide open for any problems that may occur in the future.

This must mean that they are not filling out the log books either.

A theory I have for these semi-sealed systems lies with water by-laws. As it stands the only connection that should be on your rising mains is a kitchen sink if you were to take it as gospel. So you could say that plumbers are going by the book, but I doubt half of them would even know this.

BostonB

Should someone not be signing off on these systems? The ordinary punter has no way of knowing any of this, and people doing snag lists, and surveys rarely do either.

JohnnieK

JohnnieK wrote: »

This must mean that they are not filling out the log books either.

A theory I have for these semi-sealed systems lies with water by-laws. As it stands the only connection that should be on your rising mains is a kitchen sink if you were to take it as gospel. So you could say that plumbers are going by the book, but I doubt half of them would even know this.

I would agree, but isn't that what a F&E tank is for and then theres that reg for a tank fed system that says there should be no valve between the tank and the cold feed to the system.

JohnnieK

BostonB wrote: »

Should someone not be signing off on these systems? The ordinary punter has no way of knowing any of this, and people doing snag lists, and surveys rarely do either.

The engineers are supposed to sign off, but that's exactly what they do just sign off, they dont inspect. Very rarely on domestic.

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

Should someone not be signing off on these systems? The ordinary punter has no way of knowing any of this, and people doing snag lists, and surveys rarely do either.

Who cares? RGII don't, Bord Gais don't.

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

Who cares? RGII don't, Bord Gais don't.

To be fair, they would have no reason to care. It's outside their remit.

JohnnieK

I'm actually going to an apartment tomorrow. The system is fed from the booster pump in the hot press through a non return valve. It's fed from the hot outlet of the pump and now the non return valve has failed and when the pump is off the heating system is creeping back into the hot and loosing pressure. A simple filling loop would have sorted this out for the start. Idiots..

paddydriver

Fittle wrote: »

I turned on my heating last night for the first time since June and nothing!

The flame comes on in the boiler, but not one radiator got hot or even warm after about 15 minutes.
I tried it again this morning, and it's the same.

Any ideas??? Do all the rads need to be bled, or should I ring Bord G?
Thanks

Is your thermostat turned to zero?

I turn mine to zero during the summer so gas boiler just heats water - far cheaper than running emersion. €40 gave me hot water for June and July; family of 5 - running emersion would have been €€€

Micky Dolenz

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

To be fair, they would have no reason to care. It's outside their remit.

I'm still sulking with them for telling me i was a dangerous engineer:eek:, but my point stands, there is nobody policing the domestic gas industry as far as i can see so there is no incentive to work safely or be registered, how many people have been prosecuted for not being registered who work on gas, how many people have been taken of the RGII register for dangerous work, when was the last time you heard of someone getting there wrist slapped for doing something ridiculously dangerous on a gas instillation, to date i have heard of none and like a cheap date who doesn't know how to say no i get around.


(Sorry OP for the high jack, so I'll get off my soapbox)

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

I'm still sulking with them for telling me i was a dangerous engineer:eek:,/QUOTE]


Pray tell

I let my U gauge swing in the wind and i didn't follow the soundness testing procedure set down by RGII which is a secret, i was told after my i did it wrong:o, in my defense i know how to add up both sides of the u guage to give me the correct reading and i have not killed anyone yet using my test procedure.

Micky Dolenz

gary71 wrote: »

I let my U gauge swing in the wind and i didn't follow the soundness testing procedure set down by RGII which is a secret, i was told after my i did it wrong:o, in my defense i know how to add up both sides of the u guage to give me the correct reading and i have not killed anyone yet using my test procedure.

You are used to a one minute stable and two minute test? It's gas (forgive the pun) but after a minute or so you can tell if there is a pass or not.

7 minutes maybe overkill but it's sure to be sure.