Would you be Pro or Anti Pope Ratzingers visit?

Winty

Join the big march through London to oppose the state visit of Joseph Ratzinger to the UK!

http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/

Anyone fancy a trip to London on September the 18th?
There are many great reasons why the Pope is just pure evil

1. opposing the distribution of condoms and so increasing large families in poor countries and the spread of AIDS
2. promoting segregated education
3. denying abortion to even the most vulnerable women
4. opposing equal rights for lesbians, gay, bisexual and transgender people
5. failing to address the many cases of abuse of children within its own organisation.
6. rehabilitating the holocaust denier bishop Richard Williamson and the appeaser of Hitler, the war-time Pope, Pius XII.

So if you were in London in September would you be Pro or Anti Pope Ratzingers visit?

5uspect

Winty wrote: »

Join the big march through London to oppose the state visit of Joseph Ratzinger to the UK!

http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/

Anyone fancy a trip to London on September the 18th?
There are many great reasons why the Pope is just pure evil

1. opposing the distribution of condoms and so increasing large families in poor countries and the spread of AIDS
2. promoting segregated education
3. denying abortion to even the most vulnerable women
4. opposing equal rights for lesbians, gay, bisexual and transgender people
5. failing to address the many cases of abuse of children within its own organisation.
6. rehabilitating the holocaust denier bishop Richard Williamson and the appeaser of Hitler, the war-time Pope, Pius XII.

So if you were in London in September would you be Pro or Anti Pope Ratzingers visit?

I'm moving to London in September. If I think of it I might show up and take a few photos.

Zillah

There's a campaign to have him arrested if he does, so if that's the case then I am very pro-visit.

Otherwise he can go to hell. That said, I'm not getting on a plane to join a protest march. See, this is what happens when everyone is unemployed, you suddenly think that getting on a plane to take part in a protest march in another country's capital is a great use of your (ample) time :pac:

MagicMarker

I honestly don't care if he visits us or not, no skin off my nose if he does.

Although I would be very tempted to join any protests that may occur, and I'm not the protesting type.

GLaDOS

The actual visit itself wouldn't bother me, as much as I dislike him, he is a religious figure and imortant to others.

However I would be against millions of taxpayers euros going to fund security for him.

charlemont

send him packing.... were irish not roman, the english have a perfectly good church of their own, so they should tell him where to go...

Genghiz Cohen

I'd be all in favour.*


*Assuming of course he crawls through customs on his knees begging forgiveness.

Busi_Girl08

That depends, will there be supplies of rotten fruit n veg for throwing?

strobe

Not a chance in hell I'd go to the protest to be honest. I'd imagine it will be absolutely crawling with bigoted sectarian protestants as opposed to atheists and agnostics.

antiskeptic

Winty wrote: »

JThere are many great reasons why the Pope is just pure evil

1. opposing the distribution of condoms and so increasing large families in poor countries and the spread of AIDS
2. promoting segregated education
3. denying abortion to even the most vulnerable women
4. opposing equal rights for lesbians, gay, bisexual and transgender people
5. failing to address the many cases of abuse of children within its own organisation.
6. rehabilitating the holocaust denier bishop Richard Williamson and the appeaser of Hitler, the war-time Pope, Pius XII.

What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

Azure_sky

antiskeptic wrote: »

[/LIST]What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

Sigh.......moral relativism/ lack of belief in good and evil does not necessarily follow from atheism.:rolleyes:
Chris Hitchens is a good example of this.

PeterIanStaker

No it'd be like paying money to go see someone you didnt like. F**k him.

Paddysnapper

Imitate FATHER jACK and tell him to FECK OFF......Is my advise to you!!!!

robindch

antiskeptic wrote: »

What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

Of all the daft beliefs that certain strands of christianity requires their flocks to believe about non-christians, one of the silliest must be this one -- that non-christians have no standards for honesty, integrity, decency, beauty, love, truth and so on.

It's almost embarrassing to have to point out that the people most guilty of violations of these fine qualities are frequently the very same people who believe most strongly that their political views embody them most perfectly, and that they alone have found them.

Dinner

It would probably cause traffic chaos so I'd rather he didn't come.

liamw

antiskeptic wrote: »

[/LIST]
What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

Oh right I forgot, you've got a little magic book written by desert goat herders in the middle east a few thousand years ago that allows you to know right from wrong. That is, once you've done some nice cherry picking and ignoring apparently 'bad' things that you deem out of context. Laughable.

Nemi

antiskeptic wrote: »

[/LIST]What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

But, hold on, if he was suggesting there was an absolute evil (and that he Pope was an example of it), he'd be arguing that we had an obligation to go and protest.

In fact, he's just presenting some reasons and asking who shares them, in the clear expectation that many of us will say "Nah, couldn't be bothered."

I hope if he does visit us, our Lord Mayor takes him up to Monto. Because you could make another verse out of that.

Winty

antiskeptic wrote: »

[/LIST]
What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

All I have is a moral compass that is the result of millions of years of evolution. May I ask what helps you to do the right thing?

Nemi

Apologies, I'm just greatly taken with the idea that a papal visit is a momentous occasion that deserves to be commemorated in song, or one verse at least. Any suggestions for improving this?

Pope Joey Ratzinger,
hoping he could linger,
came to bless the opening of Terminal 2.


“I hear your President’s
the kind to like one in the Aras.
I must ask her to pray for us, but on the way.”


Take me up to Monto, Monto, Monto
Take me up to Monto, lan-ge- roo,
To you!

georgieporgy

If we are to go by the huge crowds that usually turn out to welcome Pope Benedict (he attracts bigger numbers than his predecessor Pope John Paul and he was no small act to follow) I think he will be well received in the UK.

I'm not going, I'm waiting till he comes to the World Youth Day in Madrid next august.

Galvasean

ScienceNerd wrote: »

The actual visit itself wouldn't bother me, as much as I dislike him, he is a religious figure and imortant to others.

However I would be against millions of taxpayers euros going to fund security for him.

I agree. Let him do as he likes (of course I'm of the opinion that the man should be in jail for his many crimes), so long as not one penny of taxpayers' money is spent on it (not possible considering the massive Garda presence that would be required, sectioning off roads etc.)
Aww crap, I've mooted both of my points!

Dinner wrote: »

It would probably cause traffic chaos so I'd rather he didn't come.

Actually, now that I think about it, this is a bigger issue in my book. I hate when my streets our clogged up due to any sort of parade/protest/celebrity visit.

KidKeith89

On the one hand there are (I won't say millions) hundreds of thousands of devout Catholics in Ireland, and for a small minority to cause the denial of their spiritual/religious leader to enter Ireland and be in his presence is kinda wrong. But on the other hand he's the head of a state - A STATE! - that, as Winty pointed out, perpetuates the spread of AIDS and large families in Africa, denies equal rights to GLBT individuals, denies vulnerable women the answer they so desperately need, etc. all based on his religious convictions. :mad:

I don't know ... Would we let Kim-Jong il in?

antiskeptic

Winty wrote: »

All I have is a moral compass that is the result of millions of years of evolution. May I ask what helps you to do the right thing?

It'd be more insightful to examine what you believe helps me to do the right thing. Doubtlessly this belief would involve a moral compass that is the result of millions of years of evolution.

If evolution can produce both a bull and a banana you couldn't have much of a problem with it producing moral compass' pointing in various directions.

Yet you seem to assign a certain transcendence to your own personal compass. Queer that.

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

There's a campaign to have him arrested if he does, so if that's the case then I am very pro-visit.

Otherwise he can go to hell. That said, I'm not getting on a plane to join a protest march. See, this is what happens when everyone is unemployed, you suddenly think that getting on a plane to take part in a protest march in another country's capital is a great use of your (ample) time :pac:

It's not often me and Zillah agree on anything, but that is a great point.

I find something very funny about a bunch of Irish guys travelling to a foreign country to protest and shout, "How dare you let the Pope into our .... oops! ..... your country!"

MrPudding

Azure_sky wrote: »

Sigh.......moral relativism/ lack of belief in good and evil does not necessarily follow from atheism.:rolleyes:
Chris Hitchens is a good example of this.

He really does prefer Christopher...;)

I might pop down to the protest. The fact that some of my hard earned cash is going towards his visit makes me nauseous.

That said, as Zillah pointed out, it would be money well spent if he was arrested. Haven't much about that recently, don't know what is happening.

MrP

Einhard

I might join a protest against atheistic hyperbole. Is it not possible to disagree strongly with someone's positions, to believe that they have many faults, without resorting to labelling them "pure evil"? Indeed, I'd even argue that the notion of "evil" is deeply incompatible with an atheistic outlook.

Nemi

Einhard wrote: »

I'd even argue that the notion of "evil" is deeply incompatible with an atheistic outlook.

I'd agree that any notion of objective or absolute ethics is incompatible with an atheistic outlook. That's sort of what I was getting at in another recent thread that everyone seemed to get bored with.

But that's quite different to saying that individual atheists won't have a personal view on what constitutes evil, or that many of them won't find that they regard similar things as being evil. They just won't be able to come up with any reasons why anyone else should find them evil, no matter what delusions Sam Harris might want to cook up.

Ciaran500

Can we cut the crap about the specifics of how the OP worded his post and just get on with the thread, you all know what he meant.

Dades

^^ Hey, relax there buddy. This thread doesn't need moderation yet and particularly not from anyone but a mod.

Zillah

Dades wrote: »

^^ Hey, relax there buddy. This thread doesn't need moderation yet and particularly not from anyone but a mod.

This is a local forum for local people.

RepublicanEagle

I'm a believer and I am anti-Ratzinger.

Daftendirekt

Zillah wrote: »

This is a local forum for local people.

There's nothing for you here.

Zombrex

antiskeptic wrote: »

[/LIST]
What passion! You sound for all the world like someone who believes there is such a thing as absolute, transcendent evil. When, of course, you can't.

Well he can actually (God existing doesn't allow for absolute evil, so technically he as an atheist can more than you can), but even if he doesn't why does that stop him believing in subjective evil?

smokingman

As someone who has absolutely nothing to do with him, I couldn't care less if he visited his own followers...

ShooterSF

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I'm a believer and I am anti-Ratzinger.

If you're not a catholic than that's expected but if you are ...:eek:

ShooterSF

smokingman wrote: »

As someone who has absolutely nothing to do with him, I couldn't care less if he visited his own followers...

As long as his church pays for his security.

who the fug

I have already made my protest, any bods that showed up during the election got an ear bashing for allowing state funds to be wasted on this.

if the Catholic Church wants him, they can pay for him

RepublicanEagle

ShooterSF wrote: »

If you're not a catholic than that's expected but if you are ...:eek:

I am a Catholic.

demonspawn

If he's coming here to get on his hands and knees to beg for the forgiveness of those who have suffered untold horrors at the hands of his Church, then I'm all for it.

If he's here just for a publicity tour and to promote the Catholic Church then he should keep his sorry decrepit ass in Vatican City.

MrPudding

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a Catholic.

You have my deepest sympathy.

MrP

ShooterSF

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I am a Catholic.

Surely you're christian at most? How can you consider yourself Catholic, do you believe the pope is the voice of god on earth and yet disagree with him?

RepublicanEagle

ShooterSF wrote: »

Surely you're christian at most? How can you consider yourself Catholic, do you believe the pope is the voice of god on earth and yet disagree with him?

I don't believe he is,yes I am a Christian,but if he truly was the voice of God why does he

1)Protect the paedophile clerics.
2)Not speak out and combat social injustice, afterall the Vatican has more than a sufficient amount of resources at there disposal. They preach charity and goodwill but why don't they exercise it?

He is just a man, a man in cloth in a powerful position, I sincerely doubt there is anything divine about him.

ShooterSF

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

I don't believe he is,yes I am a Christian,but if he truly was the voice of God why does he

1)Protect the paedophile clerics.
2)Not speak out and combat social injustice, afterall the Vatican has more than a sufficient amount of resources at there disposal. They preach charity and goodwill but why don't they exercise it?

He is just a man, a man in cloth in a powerful position, I sincerely doubt there is anything divine about him.

But why call yourself Catholic so? I'm not having a go or anything it just seems strange...

RepublicanEagle

ShooterSF wrote: »

But why call yourself Catholic so? I'm not having a go or anything it just seems strange...

Just because I am a Catholic/Christian does not mean I am unable to see through the veneer of an elitist group of men in an institution, or that I have to believe everything they say is the "will" of God.

demonspawn

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Just because I am a Catholic/Christian does not mean I am unable to see through the veneer of an elitist group of men in an institution, or believe everything they say is the "will" of God.

Catholics have a very strict (and bizarre) set of beliefs that they adhere to. One of those beliefs is that the pope is some sort godly being sent by the big man himself to speak on his behalf. God's word is infallible, the pope speaks for God, the pope is infallible...or something along those lines.

I wouldn't call myself a Catholic if I didn't believe these things (I don't personally, it's just an example).

ShooterSF

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

Just because I am a Catholic/Christian does not mean I am unable to see through the veneer of an elitist group of men in an institution, or that I have to believe everything they say is the "will" of God.

and fair play to you!

But why use a label like Catholic when you don't agree with it? I won't go suggesting you could be protestant as you may have other beliefs that align with the catholic church, e.g (possibly) contraception or such but surely Christian is a better label (for yourself) for everyone's sake. It only confuses a discussion by having people think you believe something you don't while giving support to a group you don't agree with.

I have my concerns about the environment but would never call myself a green lest I be associated with that horrendous political party in the country!

RepublicanEagle

ShooterSF wrote: »

and fair play to you!

But why use a label like Catholic when you don't agree with it? I won't go suggesting you could be protestant as you may have other beliefs that align with the catholic church, e.g (possibly) contraception or such but surely Christian is a better label (for yourself) for everyone's sake. It only confuses a discussion by having people think you believe something you don't while giving support to a group you don't agree with.

I have my concerns about the environment but would never call myself a green lest I be associated with that horrendous political party in the country!

Well to be honest, I do predominantly use the term Christian to describe my religious affiliation, but as we were discussing the Pope I felt it was better to put it out there that I was a Catholic, just to highlight the fact that a lot of Christians/Catholics, agree with what I criticsed.

However Catholics believe in the divinity of the Virgin Mary as do I, whereas a lot of other Christian believers do not, one's belief in her divinity is a very Catholic thing, so it would be acceptable to use the word Catholic also.

I believe that a Chrisitan faith that believes in the divinity in the Virgin Mother Mary is a very positive thing (Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions in general are very patriarchal), as it introduces the matriarchal aspect.

Herbal Deity

You would appear to be a non-denominational Christian with Catholic leanings.

PDN

RepublicanEagle wrote: »

However Catholics believe in the divinity of the Virgin Mary as do I, whereas a lot of other Christian believers do not, one's belief in her divinity is a very Catholic thing, so it would be acceptable to use the word Catholic also.

I believe that a Chrisitan faith that believes in the divinity in the Virgin Mother Mary is a very positive thing (Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions in general are very patriarchal), as it introduces the matriarchal aspect.

Catholics do not believe in the divinity of Mary. Catholics are monotheists.

demonspawn

PDN wrote: »

Catholics do not believe in the divinity of Mary. Catholics are monotheists.

Catholics believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three gods for the price of one. They also believe in cannibalism. Body of Christ? Oh, yes please! Any BBQ sauce with that?

PDN

demonspawn wrote: »

Catholics believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three gods for the price of one. They also believe in cannibalism. Body of Christ? Oh, yes please! Any BBQ sauce with that?

I'm not a Catholic, so the muppetry is rather wasted on me.