Better Dublin bus routes

Cool Mo D

I think that in advance of the network direct changes (looks like it could be a while...) we could have some discussion on what route improvements could be made to exisiting bus routes - e.g. simplification, removing variations, etc.

Some buses that could use change:

The 17
Currently a southside cross-city route from Blackrock, via UCD, Terenure and Rathfarnam, it takes an odd turn-off from its east-west route, and heads north, through Rialto, giving up before reaching the city, not quite becoming a radial route for the Crumlin area. Route variations include going through, or not going through the UCD campus.

A better route: Start in at Balckrock, up Mount Merrion road, then head up the N11, and U-turn at the Belfield flyover before returning down the N11, and turning onto Foster's avenue, continuing down Mount Anville Road, the Churchtown road, into rathfarnham via Nutgrove, and then on to Terenure. Instead of heading to Rialto, it would head out the Kimmage road, through the Walkinstown roundabout to the Kylemore Luas stop on the Naas road.

This would link the DART, both Luas lines, UCD, and lots of important suburbs, performing a feeder role for 3 rail lines, and a Tallaght - UCD link.

The 18
Instead of dog-legging several times through Kimmage should continue further down the Crumlin road to the junction with the Sundrive road, before following the existing route as far as Ranelagh and the N11. It would then avoid going down Waterloo road and Pembroke road, which are too busy to maintain a good frequency, and instead head south on the N11 to Herbert Park Road, and terminate at Sandymount station.

The 33/A/B
Should all use the port tunnel.

The 11/A/B
Scrap all route variations, and start all buses in the same place, the current 11 terminus. No more 11Bs, 11As, Sandyford 11s. Maintain the current frequency, but no less bunching of buses due to different start locations.

Just some ideas.

Cookie_Monster

7

Cut out all of Sallynoggin and run straight down Sallyglen road.
Terminate all buses at Cherrywood Luas stop. The apparent new "Hub"

7/45
Don't go through Blackrock village, stay on the rock road

45 I can see this getting heavy restrictions with improvement on 145 and rock road buses (4,4a) this is becoming less needed apart from the Blackrock to Cornelscourt section and south of Bray


Phase one was released and then heavily changed and rowed back upon. Do you think now that DB have seen the reaction they are likely to cut out some of the changes proposed in 2+ before they are even released to minimise hassle?

lainey316

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The 18
Instead of dog-legging several times through Kimmage should continue further down the Crumlin road to the junction with the Sundrive road, before following the existing route as far as Ranelagh and the N11. It would then avoid going down Waterloo road and Pembroke road, which are too busy to maintain a good frequency, and instead head south on the N11 to Herbert Park Road, and terminate at Sandymount station.

Most mornings it seems like half the passengers get out the junction of Pembroke Road/Baggot St. It's well before that the issues occur on the 18. 6 light changes to get from the Rathmines side of Belgrave Square through the junction being a particularly delightful, tho not massively longer than usual, morning. Quite often they've bunched up before they get to Rathmines at all in any case.

Cool Mo D

lainey316 wrote: »

Most mornings it seems like half the passengers get out the junction of Pembroke Road/Baggot St. It's well before that the issues occur on the 18. 6 light changes to get from the Rathmines side of Belgrave Square through the junction being a particularly delightful, tho not massively longer than usual, morning. Quite often they've bunched up before they get to Rathmines at all in any case.

The 18 is a particularly awkward bus alright , without a priority route to follow, it's definitely a slow one.

One other thing I forgot - either the 19/A or the 16/A should go via Clanbrassil street rather than Georges street - Georges street is a narrow road with a one way bus lane with a lot of routes going up it, while Clanbrassil street is wider, and is relatively poorly served by buses. I'd say the 16/A would be a better option maybe.

Heart

Cool Mo D wrote: »

One other thing I forgot - either the 19/A or the 16/A should go via Clanbrassil street rather than Georges street - Georges street is a narrow road with a one way bus lane with a lot of routes going up it, while Clanbrassil street is wider, and is relatively poorly served by buses. I'd say the 16/A would be a better option maybe.

Not a bad idea but I'd suggest the 19/a over the 16/a... If you took the 16/a out of Georges St./Camden St. you cut the connection to Drumcondra and further where as if you re-route the 19/a, the 83 & 122 still provide Georges St./Camden St. with a connection to Phibsboro.

H

KC61

Cool Mo D wrote: »

I think that in advance of the network direct changes (looks like it could be a while...) we could have some discussion on what route improvements could be made to exisiting bus routes - e.g. simplification, removing variations, etc.

Some buses that could use change:

The 17
Currently a southside cross-city route from Blackrock, via UCD, Terenure and Rathfarnam, it takes an odd turn-off from its east-west route, and heads north, through Rialto, giving up before reaching the city, not quite becoming a radial route for the Crumlin area. Route variations include going through, or not going through the UCD campus.

A better route: Start in at Balckrock, up Mount Merrion road, then head up the N11, and U-turn at the Belfield flyover before returning down the N11, and turning onto Foster's avenue, continuing down Mount Anville Road, the Churchtown road, into rathfarnham via Nutgrove, and then on to Terenure. Instead of heading to Rialto, it would head out the Kimmage road, through the Walkinstown roundabout to the Kylemore Luas stop on the Naas road.

This would link the DART, both Luas lines, UCD, and lots of important suburbs, performing a feeder role for 3 rail lines, and a Tallaght - UCD link.

The 18
Instead of dog-legging several times through Kimmage should continue further down the Crumlin road to the junction with the Sundrive road, before following the existing route as far as Ranelagh and the N11. It would then avoid going down Waterloo road and Pembroke road, which are too busy to maintain a good frequency, and instead head south on the N11 to Herbert Park Road, and terminate at Sandymount station.

The 33/A/B
Should all use the port tunnel.

The 11/A/B
Scrap all route variations, and start all buses in the same place, the current 11 terminus. No more 11Bs, 11As, Sandyford 11s. Maintain the current frequency, but no less bunching of buses due to different start locations.

Just some ideas.

Just on re-routing the 17 away from Rialto - you then remove the link to St James Hospital (a 10 minute walk away) that it provides - that is where much of the western end of the route patronage comes from.

joegriffinjnr

New Route possibly 17B.

Howth Jct Station, Kilbarrak Rd, Grange Rd, Donaghmede S.C. , Clarehall Ave, ClareHall S.C. , Malahide Rd, Oscar Tranor Rd, Beaumont Hosp, Via 27B to Old airport Rd, Dublin Airport, then possibly on to Swords.

Cool Mo D

KC61 wrote: »

Just on re-routing the 17 away from Rialto - you then remove the link to St James Hospital (a 10 minute walk away) that it provides - that is where much of the western end of the route patronage comes from.

That is a good point, but I think that Rialto to St James would be better served by modifiying the route of one of the radial buses - the 122 might be an option, or just creating a new route to run along the short Rialto stretch - .

The 17 just seems like it's almost about to make a good link between Tallaght and the south suburbs via the Luas, but it gives up just a little short of walking distance to do something totally different. I think giving a more direct option for students living in Tallaght to get to UCD would add passengers too.

Although, I really believe that the main factor holding back orbital and feeder buses like the 17 is the lack of integrated ticketing.

Aard

I think the Tallaght-Dun Laoghaire route would be better served by a streamlined 75. (EDIT: incorrect link)

The 17 could be rerouted to be a Clondalkin-Blackrock chord. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Cloverhill+Rd&daddr=53.31002,-6.28728+to:53.29283,-6.24498+to:Rock+Hill&hl=en&geocode=FXrILQMdLmue_w%3BFURyLQMdUBCg_ynxUWs29QtnSDHBVIO2qscAEw%3BFR4vLQMdjLWg_ykLbtBwXQlnSDEhGwH8pscAEw%3BFUBTLQMddLih_w&mra=dvme&mrcr=0&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1,2&sll=53.308211,-6.257744&sspn=0.056823,0.154324&ie=UTF8&ll=53.310262,-6.235943&spn=0.056821,0.154324&z=13)

I'd imagine another chord could be fit in further north.

Carawaystick

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The 33/A/B
Should all use the port tunnel.

Where would passengers heading for the Airport, Santry, Drumcondra of the inner city change?

Should passengers from Portrane change twice to get to these areas?

KC61

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The 33/A/B
Should all use the port tunnel.

Bit difficult to use the Port Tunnel given that the 33A goes from Balbriggan to Swords only, and the 33B from Portrane to Swords only!!!

Seriously, what I would change is that the 33 would use the Swords Bypass, and not Swords Main Street in the same way as the Bus Eireann route 101. This could save considerable time, and if it works for the 101 why could it not work for the 33?

I would retain the rest of the existing route however as many passengers from North Dublin use the 33 along it.

KC61

Aard wrote: »

I think the Tallaght-Dun Laoghaire route would be better served by a streamlined 75. (http://maps.google.com/maps/mm?ie=UTF8&hl=en&ll=53.286974,-6.26152&spn=0.113703,0.308647&z=12)

The 17 could be rerouted to be a Clondalkin-Blackrock chord. (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Cloverhill+Rd&daddr=53.31002,-6.28728+to:53.29283,-6.24498+to:Rock+Hill&hl=en&geocode=FXrILQMdLmue_w%3BFURyLQMdUBCg_ynxUWs29QtnSDHBVIO2qscAEw%3BFR4vLQMdjLWg_ykLbtBwXQlnSDEhGwH8pscAEw%3BFUBTLQMddLih_w&mra=dvme&mrcr=0&mrsp=2&sz=13&via=1,2&sll=53.308211,-6.257744&sspn=0.056823,0.154324&ie=UTF8&ll=53.310262,-6.235943&spn=0.056821,0.154324&z=13)

I'd imagine another chord could be fit in further north.

There is certainly talk about a further route being introduced south of the existing 75 between Dun Laoghaire and Tallaght, using the Green Route, with the existing 75 being realigned.

Your realigned 17 appears to operate without serving UCD? That's the route's bread and butter.

KC61

Cool Mo D wrote: »

That is a good point, but I think that Rialto to St James would be better served by modifiying the route of one of the radial buses - the 122 might be an option, or just creating a new route to run along the short Rialto stretch - .

The 17 just seems like it's almost about to make a good link between Tallaght and the south suburbs via the Luas, but it gives up just a little short of walking distance to do something totally different. I think giving a more direct option for students living in Tallaght to get to UCD would add passengers too.

Although, I really believe that the main factor holding back orbital and feeder buses like the 17 is the lack of integrated ticketing.

You're missing my point - the 17 provides a link to St James Hospital for Crumlin, Kimmage and Terenure. That is where it gets much of its business.

As I understand it the plan is for the route to be extended to Heuston Station.

Aard

@KC61: I intended for the route from Roebuck Rd to Blackrock to be the same, ie going through Belfield.

KD345

Cool Mo D wrote: »

That is a good point, but I think that Rialto to St James would be better served by modifiying the route of one of the radial buses - the 122 might be an option, or just creating a new route to run along the short Rialto stretch - .

The 17 just seems like it's almost about to make a good link between Tallaght and the south suburbs via the Luas, but it gives up just a little short of walking distance to do something totally different. I think giving a more direct option for students living in Tallaght to get to UCD would add passengers too.

Although, I really believe that the main factor holding back orbital and feeder buses like the 17 is the lack of integrated ticketing.

I'm not sure how altering the 122 would solve the missing link if you removed the 17 from Kimmage and Crumlin. This route is used a lot by locals in Crumlin for shopping and St. James hospital.

Any passengers from Tallaght wishing to use the 17 for UCD would be much better to take the 65 or 65B to Terenure and switch to the 17 there. It's more direct than traveling to Kylemore.

Also, the 17 already links with the red line Luas at Rialto.

I do agree routes like the 17 can be tweaked. But I would be careful not to affect too many passengers who rely on this service. Looking at a map it might seem like the 17 and 18 take a tedious journey through Crumlin but there are many elderly people living in this area who rely on these services to link to Ballyfermot, Palmerstown Cemetery, Crumlin Village and hospital and St. James hospital. In my experience of using these routes, they generally pass through Crumlin quite quickly. There are not many traffic lights and the traffic is usually light.

I think extending the 17 the short distance to Heuston would make sense and open up this route a bit more.

AlekSmart

KD345 Posted :-

But I would be careful not to affect too many passengers who rely on this service. Looking at a map it might seem like the 17 and 18 take a tedious journey through Crumlin but there are many elderly people living in this area who rely on these services to link to Ballyfermot, Palmerstown Cemetery, Crumlin Village and hospital and St. James hospital.

Without doubt this issue is now going to assume some significance as we progress further along our Country`s road to bankruptcy.

With the Deloitte Network Direct proposals now well behind target implimentation date along with a significant shift in CIE managerial politics we may well see some confrontation in the weeks to come.

Whilst both the 17 and 18 routes represent desirable and highly marketable Public Transport links in any Capital City`s infrastructure we have thouroughly failed to capitalize upon that.

Instead we can only point to the hoary old chesnut of the "Old People" living along the route and the need to keep it running for them,a principle I totally concur with...however make no mistake,but the absence of any real central-thrust to encourage/require a degree of modal shift in order to get some cash-money in the fare-box will eventually seal the fates of such routes.

The 17 for example is very capable of a sustaining a doubling of frequency and with some equally capable marketing could be a money-spinner.

However this will not happen without some serious direct-input from the likes of the NTA or our somewhat moribund,Toll-Facility fascinated Minister for Transport.

loyatemu

The 84 - run it as a higher frequency service between Kilcoole and Bray (or at a push Cherrywood) - passengers can change onto the high frequency 145 if they want to go further. Sounds like a winner to me, can't think why anyone would object.

KD345

loyatemu wrote: »

The 84 - run it as a higher frequency service between Kilcoole and Bray (or at a push Cherrywood) - passengers can change onto the high frequency 145 if they want to go further. Sounds like a winner to me, can't think why anyone would object.

They already have objected. The new 84 was to be high frequency between Kilcoole and Cherrywood but after objections its now running to Belfield at an hourly frequency.

Cool Mo D

Actually, looking again at the 17 and 18, they cross each others route at Crumlin. What would be better is to swap the westerly part of each others routes. The 18 would take over the Crumlin - Rialto - James section, which would be extended to Heuston, and the 17 would continue to Palmerstown.

This means that the 17 would be a dedicated, east west orbital feeder route, and the 18 would be an inner suburb link. Both routes would meet at St. Agnes road. This would keep the 17 route south of the 18 route for the whole distance.

Some slight tidying up of the new 18 route would be needed - maybe sundrive road - clonmacnoise road -St. Agnes park- meet the 17 along St. Agnes road, then along the Crumlin road to Dolphin's barn.

It would mean three intersecting orbital routes in South Dublin, each further from the City - the 17, 18 and 75.

Although, I think the 75 route is fairly all over the place too.

KC61

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Actually, looking again at the 17 and 18, they cross each others route at Crumlin. What would be better is to swap the westerly part of each others routes. The 18 would take over the Crumlin - Rialto - James section, which would be extended to Heuston, and the 17 would continue to Palmerstown.

This means that the 17 would be a dedicated, east west orbital feeder route, and the 18 would be an inner suburb link. Both routes would meet at St. Agnes road. This would keep the 17 route south of the 18 route for the whole distance.

Some slight tidying up of the new 18 route would be needed - maybe sundrive road - clonmacnoise road -St. Agnes park- meet the 17 along St. Agnes road, then along the Crumlin road to Dolphin's barn.

It would mean three intersecting orbital routes in South Dublin, each further from the City - the 17, 18 and 75.

Although, I think the 75 route is fairly all over the place too.

As I understand it the plan is for a fourth also - south of the existing route 75 with the 75 to be straightened out a bit.

loyatemu

KD345 wrote: »

They already have objected. The new 84 was to be high frequency between Kilcoole and Cherrywood but after objections its now running to Belfield at an hourly frequency.

thanks, it was a failed attempt at sarcasm on my part - I'm of the sorry saga already.

RayM

loyatemu wrote: »

The 84 - run it as a higher frequency service between Kilcoole and Bray (or at a push Cherrywood) - passengers can change onto the high frequency 145 if they want to go further. Sounds like a winner to me, can't think why anyone would object.

Won't somebody please think of Greystones' beleaguered UCD students? Imagine how difficult their already intolerably harsh lives would be if they had to get off one bus and almost immediately onto another. It would be so easy to dismiss those cherubic Fine Gael Greystones Town Councillors who objected to Dublin Bus' original proposals as being short-sighted knee-jerk clowns. Yes, in their little suits, they may well look more like kids making their First Holy Communions than actual proper politicians but, by God, these boys are standing up for their constituents (albeit a very small number of them). Being merely served by the DART, the 84, the 84x, the 184 and Aircoach, Greystones is clearly a deprived town where public transport is concerned.

Yes, as a result of this, the people of Kilcoole and Newcastle have been deprived of the chance to finally have what would have been a decent and regular bus service, but at least (some of) the poor students of Greystones won't be subjected to the horrors of having to get off one bus and onto another.

Cookie_Monster

the problem of PT in Dublin (highlighted very well by the 84 issue) is the refusal of people to get the concept of changing buses to get to a destination. Cities like London with a metro people wouldn't give a second thought going from A to B to C, whereas here its always has to be A to C.

The concept of changin buses/trains needs to be highlighted and pushed more as part of the Luas, Metro, Network Direct changes taking place currently to get it in the publics mindset.

The Sparrow

Probably not the biggest deal but I would like to see the new 63 route continue on to Dalkey. Like I said not a huge deal but there are a lot of people on the route that I'm sure would like a way to get to Dalkey without changing on to the Dart.

spurious

Some buses (not necessarily a full route, even occasional ones) could be re-routed from Ringsend road/Pearse Street along past the new Grand Canal Theatre and over the 'new' bridge into the IFSC, bringing some much-needed life and traffic to both areas.

Cookie_Monster

The Sparrow wrote: »

Probably not the biggest deal but I would like to see the new 63 route continue on to Dalkey. Like I said not a huge deal but there are a lot of people on the route that I'm sure would like a way to get to Dalkey without changing on to the Dart.

covered by DART and 59. If 63 was extended frequency would be dropped to compensate and thats not really worth it IMO. Proper timing so a 63 meets a 59 would be a better use of resources.

patrickbrophy18

The Sparrow wrote: »

Probably not the biggest deal but I would like to see the new 63 route continue on to Dalkey. Like I said not a huge deal but there are a lot of people on the route that I'm sure would like a way to get to Dalkey without changing on to the Dart.

Couldn't agree with you more. While the DART is a fantastic system, the 59 is very unreliable when it comes to changing transport modes. It's quite another to have to do it this way:

1. Dalkey - Dun Laoghaire
2. Dun Laoghaire - Dundrum
3. Dundrum -Rathmines

Like I've said before, there is 2 miles between Blackrock and Dun Laoghaire and 2 miles between Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey. As such, proper transport corridors should be equi-distant from one another. Fair enough, Dun Laoghaire and Blackrock are far more diverse commercially. This shouldn't stop Dublin Bus from introducing these two decent services:

1. Dalkey - Cherrywood Luas (Replacement of 59 with half hourly clockface)
2. Dalkey - Stillorgan Dual Carriageway (Re-routed 8 with a half hourly clockface)

As such, Dalkey would have the DART, Luas Green Line(a change away) and a direct service that covers Stillorgan Dual Carriageway. After that, scrap the 7D! Maybe, keep it as a peak time service to cover Sandycove and Glasthule. I only include the 8 for historic purposes.:D

As for that whole philosophy of increasing the length of journeys and decreasing their frequency, it is mind-blowingly retarded.:mad:

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

1. Dalkey - Cherrywood Luas (Replacement of 59 with half hourly clockface)
2. Dalkey - Stillorgan Dual Carriageway (Re-routed 8 with a half hourly clockface)

As such, Dalkey would have the DART, Luas Green Line(a change away) and a direct service that covers Stillorgan Dual Carriageway. After that, scrap the 7D! Maybe, keep it as a peak time service to cover Sandycove and Glasthule. I only include the 8 for historic purposes.:D

the point you seem to constantly miss is that there is no-where near enough demand in Dalkey & environs to justify that level of service. I know you are from there and want the best bus service you can get, but come on be realistic...

The patronage at Dalkey DART and the fact the 7d, 8 and 59 usually run fairly empty testify to that.

Cool Mo D

Here's a map of what I would propose for the south Dublin orbital services:

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=110031367556011964879.00048f0f25a7c78b5a181&ll=53.316518,-6.168137&spn=0.225198,0.475845&z=11

Don't really know the 75 route that well, so I may be way off.

Also, a good fast Tallaght - Blanchardstown service would be good. Using the outer ring road, the N4, and M50, it could be pretty fast too.

Godge

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the problem of PT in Dublin (highlighted very well by the 84 issue) is the refusal of people to get the concept of changing buses to get to a destination. Cities like London with a metro people wouldn't give a second thought going from A to B to C, whereas here its always has to be A to C.

The concept of changin buses/trains needs to be highlighted and pushed more as part of the Luas, Metro, Network Direct changes taking place currently to get it in the publics mindset.

That is a subset of the bigger problem of PT in Dublin which is that if you engage in public consultation everyone looks out their front door to see what is happening to their bus and their journey.

With the proposed changes, most are happy and sit back down quietly. The smaller louder minority jump up and down and shout and scream. As a result, the plans are changed to suit them. Then there is the counter-argument from the originally quiet ones and by the time the project is finished, it is a camel.

You don't need to look only at the new bus routes, look at the bus lanes that only go 200 yards etc. The Navan Road and Stoneybatter are two examples of local consultation ruining a good plan.

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the point you seem to constantly miss is that there is no-where near enough demand in Dalkey & environs to justify that level of service. I know you are from there and want the best bus service you can get, but come on be realistic...

The patronage at Dalkey DART and the fact the 7d, 8 and 59 usually run fairly empty testify to that.

The reason why the 7d, 59 and 8 don't see much use is the following:

1. The 7d with only one journey each way is obviously doomed for failure because it might as well not exist. Like it or not, no-one is going to avail of a service with only one journey each way as people will view it's frequency as a joke and hence, unreliable. You can't possibly tell me that you think that is good service.
2. The 8? Fair enough, it duplicates the DART route which might explain why people no longer use it. Hence, the suggestion to change it's alignment to the N11 so it is no longer a duplicate.
3. The 59 has a relatively good load between Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire because it is the most frequent service in Dalkey provided by Dublin Bus.

Yet, you agree to a 175 from Shankill? Shankill already has the DART too. However, it's bus routes (45a, 145, 45 and 84) are far more frequent than Dalkey's routes. Above all, they are all day services. Also, the 7A needs an all day service.

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

As for that whole philosophy of increasing the length of journeys and decreasing their frequency, it is mind-blowingly retarded.:mad:

It's actually simple maths. I'll try to explain this simply. If you have a route that takes 1 hour to get from one terminus to another and you want a 30 minute frequency it requires 4 buses.

If you extend the route so that it takes 90 minutes from one end to another, well then to continue to operate at a 30 minute frequency needs 6 buses.

Hence if you keep the number of buses available for the route the same - frequency has to drop.

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Yet, you agree to a 175 from Shankill? Shankill already has the DART too. However, it's bus routes (45a, 145, 45 and 84) are far more frequent than Dalkey's routes. Above all, they are all day services. Also, the 7A needs an all day service.

where'd I say I agree with the 175?

7a needs to be discontinued also, again with proper integration the 59 can feed to the 7 from where the 7a goes and everywhere it does go is within less than 10 mins to either the 7 or 46a anyway.

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

where'd I say I agree with the 175?

Nevermind, I misread something.:D

KC61

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The reason why the 7d, 59 and 8 don't see much use is the following:

1. The 7d with only one journey each way is obviously doomed for failure because it might as well not exist. Like it or not, no-one is going to avail of a service with only one journey each way as people will view it's frequency as a joke and hence, unreliable. You can't possibly tell me that you think that is good service.
2. The 8? Fair enough, it duplicates the DART route which might explain why people no longer use it. Hence, the suggestion to change it's alignment to the N11 so it is no longer a duplicate.
3. The 59 has a relatively good load between Dalkey and Dun Laoghaire because it is the most frequent service in Dalkey provided by Dublin Bus.

Yet, you agree to a 175 from Shankill? Shankill already has the DART too. However, it's bus routes (45a, 145, 45 and 84) are far more frequent than Dalkey's routes. Above all, they are all day services. Also, the 7A needs an all day service.

The 7b and 7d were both introduced some years ago as a political effort by Dublin Bus to get the local authorities to do something about upgrading the Rock Road and installing a full QBC on that route. Hence the numbering.

Both will (in my view) be for the chop in the network review when it gets to that area given that there is now a bus lane all along the Rock Road/Merrion Road.

The only unique section from the 7 covered by the 7a is along Johnstown Road and Pottery Road. To suggest that small distance deserves an increased frequency is madness. The company is trying to cut costs not increase them. People from those areas can simply walk to the 145 in Cabinteely, or take the all-day 59 to the all-day 7.

You really do need to get real here - there is simply not that huge critical mass of potential bus users in the Dalkey area that would justify all of these extra buses.

honru

I was thinking of a change on either the 4/A or 7 routes, where instead of travelling to Northumberland Road, Merrion Square, etc., one of these routes continues on Pembroke Road to Upper Baggot Street, etc., similar to the 10 route and then back to the existing route on O'Connell Street.

Would be a problem with the bendy buses in the case of the 4/A, but it would shake up the mirroring these buses have with a DART a bit, and give a direct connection for Blackrock (and surrounding area) commuters to Leeson Street, Stephen's Green, etc.

KC61

f®eak s©enery wrote: »

I was thinking of a change on either the 4/A or 7 routes, where instead of travelling to Northumberland Road, Merrion Square, etc., one of these routes continues on Pembroke Road to Upper Baggot Street, etc., similar to the 10 route and then back to the existing route on O'Connell Street.

Would be a problem with the bendy buses in the case of the 4/A, but it would shake up the mirroring these buses have with a DART a bit, and give a direct connection for Blackrock (and surrounding area) commuters to Leeson Street, Stephen's Green, etc.

That I would think is a very practical idea. Don't worry about the "bendy buses" as they will be departing the scene.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The 7b and 7d were both introduced some years ago as a political effort by Dublin Bus to get the local authorities to do something about upgrading the Rock Road and installing a full QBC on that route. Hence the numbering.

Both will (in my view) be for the chop in the network review when it gets to that area given that there is now a bus lane all along the Rock Road/Merrion Road.

I don't know about the 7B these days but I used to get it to college in the morning, over the years I got every departure time in and most back out. They were always full in the morning (to the extent that they standing room only by Churchview road) between UCD, the two schools at the Radisson and a fair chunk at Leeson St. Now I'm sure the 145 probably took some of this traffic but I would have thought the link from Shankill through Ballybrack & Killiney to the N11 QBC was one with enough volume to maintain it?!

EDIT: I don't want to be taken to be trying to "plug" or "save" this route, just curious

Cookie_Monster

f®eak s©enery wrote: »

I was thinking of a change on either the 4/A or 7 routes, where instead of travelling to Northumberland Road, Merrion Square, etc., one of these routes continues on Pembroke Road to Upper Baggot Street, etc., similar to the 10 route and then back to the existing route on O'Connell Street.

Would be a problem with the bendy buses in the case of the 4/A, but it would shake up the mirroring these buses have with a DART a bit, and give a direct connection for Blackrock (and surrounding area) commuters to Leeson Street, Stephen's Green, etc.

good idea.

The one possible downside is the sheer volume of buses that already go up Kildare steet. the stops there get a bit dodgy at rush hour with the numbers in such a small space (quite like Nassau). Its a pity they wouldn't think of putting in a bus stop island instead of one of the lanes

patrickbrophy18

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the point you seem to constantly miss is that there is no-where near enough demand in Dalkey & environs to justify that level of service. I know you are from there and want the best bus service you can get, but come on be realistic...

The patronage at Dalkey DART and the fact the 7d, 8 and 59 usually run fairly empty testify to that.

If that's the case you are going back on the comment you made here:

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Some sensible route suggestions there.

I would however make slightly different ones. The 8 should be binned and the 7d frequency expanded as I think its a much more useful service, connection Dalkey to the N11 corridor to match the DART connecting the coastal corridor.

I'd leave the 111 as is into Loughlinstown, I'm presuming that the 7 will finally be pulled out of Loughlinstown with the later phase release so as to have a decent mini hub at Cherrywood (luas, 7, 84 - hopefully properly built terminus). Hopefully the 7 will also divert down Sallyglen road as intended years ago, saving 10 mins on its route. this will also leave Sallynoggin estates for the 111 to cover.

Further extend the 63 from DL to Dalkey (or every 2nd one) to further cover the gap to the Luas, in terms of running time doesn't add too much.

the 59 route could probably be streamlined a bit but not sure how or where exactly, but its very indirect at the moment.

Quoted from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65618291#post65618291.:D

Cookie_Monster

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

If that's the case you are going back on the comment you made here:

Quoted from: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65618291#post65618291.:D

well to do the proposed 63 there you'd need to run extra buses to maintain the timetable, which is not going to happen IMO, same as the 84. I didn't know that then but I suspect that to be the case now.

I'm still in favour of 7b/d expansion though doubt it will happen. These should be taken from the 46a as its not really busy enough from Foxrock to justify the bus every 5 mins to DL, these routes could go elsewhere to offer more flexibility for little additional time or need for buses and still maintain the n11 corridor bus numbers

MonkstownHoop

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the problem of PT in Dublin (highlighted very well by the 84 issue) is the refusal of people to get the concept of changing buses to get to a destination. Cities like London with a metro people wouldn't give a second thought going from A to B to C, whereas here its always has to be A to C.

The concept of changin buses/trains needs to be highlighted and pushed more as part of the Luas, Metro, Network Direct changes taking place currently to get it in the publics mindset.

if we had PT like london or alot of other countries people wouldnt mind changing buses, trains ect... but we dont. we have a backwards PT system where dublin bus are pretending to improve services while behind closed doors are really cutting down and axing jobs

Aard

Improving service and axing jobs are not mutually exclusive.

xper

RayM wrote: »

Won't somebody please think of Greystones' beleaguered UCD students? Imagine how difficult their already intolerably harsh lives would be if they had to get off one bus and almost immediately onto another. It would be so easy to dismiss those cherubic Fine Gael Greystones Town Councillors who objected to Dublin Bus' original proposals as being short-sighted knee-jerk clowns. Yes, in their little suits, they may well look more like kids making their First Holy Communions than actual proper politicians but, by God, these boys are standing up for their constituents (albeit a very small number of them). Being merely served by the DART, the 84, the 84x, the 184 and Aircoach, Greystones is clearly a deprived town where public transport is concerned.

Yes, as a result of this, the people of Kilcoole and Newcastle have been deprived of the chance to finally have what would have been a decent and regular bus service, but at least (some of) the poor students of Greystones won't be subjected to the horrors of having to get off one bus and onto another.

I feel obliged to make it clear to any Network Direct team members that might read this that this is in fact more sarcasm!

Art(h)ur

What I cannot understand is that a lot of people are so much opposed to a change as such. The complain about the service they're getting when asked for opinion on any changes (like Network Direct) they turn negative. Even if the bus will be quicker, more frequent and more reliable at a cost of a longer walk to/from the stop or a need to change - they oppose and want everything to stay as is.
What is this conservatism all about? I can understand why everyone is looking at the routes they are taking but instead of thinking 'if my bus is improved - I will support this plan', they go 'my bus will be changed - I am against it'.

Godge

Art(h)ur wrote: »

What I cannot understand is that a lot of people are so much opposed to a change as such. The complain about the service they're getting when asked for opinion on any changes (like Network Direct) they turn negative. Even if the bus will be quicker, more frequent and more reliable at a cost of a longer walk to/from the stop or a need to change - they oppose and want everything to stay as is.
What is this conservatism all about? I can understand why everyone is looking at the routes they are taking but instead of thinking 'if my bus is improved - I will support this plan', they go 'my bus will be changed - I am against it'.

Everyone wants direct buses from their immediate location (two minutes walk) to their ultimate destination as directly as possible.

AlekSmart

I feel obliged to make it clear to any Network Direct team members that might read this that this is in fact more sarcasm!

Ah here Godge...I thought RayM`s post was a sensible enough reprise of the situation....

It would,for sure have made a highly effective and desirable route out of the 84,that 30 minute all-day service would have allowed the Greystones/Kilcoole region to benefit at long last and maybe even resulted in a few new customers.

The revised revision with it`s Hourly frequency is merely more of the same and effectively seals the fate of the 84. :mad:

Art(h)ur

Godge wrote: »

Everyone wants direct buses from their immediate location (two minutes walk) to their ultimate destination as directly as possible.

Fair enough, but this is only achievable for everybody in a small town, certainly not in Dublin. Besides, the current network offers direct buses from each and every estate to the city centre but nowhere else. And that should (in theory) make at least some commuters (the ones that need to get to anywhere outside An Lár) support the changes. This does not seem to be happening - everybody seems to be happy with the way things are at the minute (and they are tbh very poor by any standard). Even when offered higher frequency, better connections (resulting from it), more areas of the city easier to reach and - most of all - shorter total journey times, they still turn around and say 'No, keep your hands off the bus that drops me right by me mate's/auntie's/granny's gaff!' Somehow, residents of other capitals are able to change every day a couple of times and it doesn't hurt them.

Aard

DB just need to get their finger out and do it! People will piss and moan for a few weeks, then soon realise that things have gotten better.

Cool Mo D

Yes, If DB really believe they have a better way of doing it, they should take a risk and just go for it. No-one is ever going to come up with a plan that everyone likes, and the naysayers will always speak louder at first.

It seems that DB think it's safer to avoid any risk, than make an effort to improve something, with the chance that it could all go wrong.

patrickbrophy18

KC61 wrote: »

The 7b and 7d were both introduced some years ago as a political effort by Dublin Bus to get the local authorities to do something about upgrading the Rock Road and installing a full QBC on that route. Hence the numbering.

Both will (in my view) be for the chop in the network review when it gets to that area given that there is now a bus lane all along the Rock Road/Merrion Road.

The only unique section from the 7 covered by the 7a is along Johnstown Road and Pottery Road. To suggest that small distance deserves an increased frequency is madness. The company is trying to cut costs not increase them. People from those areas can simply walk to the 145 in Cabinteely, or take the all-day 59 to the all-day 7.

You really do need to get real here - there is simply not that huge critical mass of potential bus users in the Dalkey area that would justify all of these extra buses.

Are telling me that the population marked within the yellow in the map below doesn't represent a gap in the market as room for improvement where an semi-frequent N11 and direct Luas link bus is concerned?



If you are, how are you so sure of this?

The two hoax routes marked in the below map are surrounded by a large number of residential areas which I would assume gives cause to their viablity.



Not to mention the fact that the routes distinguish themselves a lot from the 46A and the DART. Also, they are building a QBC along a large stretch of Upper Glenageary Road where the old Dun Laoghaire Golf Club used to be. At least the 9 would make proper use of it as very few buses go along this road.