Bio Dad suddenly seeking guardianship of daughter.

Daragh86 · 27-08-2010 8:58am #1

Hi all,

Sorry to jump into the middle of all this and change the subject somewhat - hope this is ok? I'm completely new to this forum and this subject.

Before I get into the whole situation I'll explain my situation as it stands. I am living with my girlfriend in a house we bought together almost a year ago now, we've been together almost 3 years. She has a daughter (nearly 5) from a previous relationship, she lives with us. Myself and my girlfriend work full time at the moment, we had to completely renovate the new house and still have a lot of upgrading to do although my girlfriend will be either working part time or not working at all shortly to be full time with her daughter.

Her daughter's father hasn't paid too much attention to his daughter up until we moved in to the new house together and all of a sudden he upped his game which is understandable. Before this he rarely handed up money for his daughter or spent much time with her (maybe, if lucky 3 or 4 hours a week). He has had a couple jobs on and off and even in the good times couldn't hold down a job. He is currently unemployed, claiming welfare and also working on the side so unfortunately he has more money than we do. He lives at home with his parents. He takes his daughter two nights a week, she doesn't have her own bedroom in his parents house - she sleeps on a blow up bed on his bedroom floor. When she is there he rarely is there, his parents mind her most of the time. All my girlfriend accepts from him now is half of her school costs which is very little with government grants for pre school now.

With all that background out of the way now I can get down to the problem. He has contacted my girlfriend in relation to signing a legal guardianship document which would make him joint guardian of his daughter, which in most cases I completely agree with.

There are so many reasons why we wouldn't want him to be joint guardian - all of the above and also we are planning to start a family shortly and in the case that something may happen to my girlfriend in the future he would have sole guardianship of her then and would remove her from what would be her family home with half brothers or sisters and a stable home. Coupled with him being an idiot, having no bed for her, no job, no home for her, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts of the situation or what might be the outcome of it all if it does end up going to court?

Sorry about the long post and hope I didn't bore anyone too much. Thanks for any help or advice in advance!

Nevyn · 27-08-2010 9:08am

Daragh86 I've moved this to a thread of it's own rather then have it in the middle of the rights and awareness thread.

It could be the fact it looks like you will be having kids with your partner and maybe looking to adopt her daugther or being refused access if anything happens to her mother which has him looking for guardianship.

If he is commiting dole fraud then report him and let the system sort it out.

He is her Dad and while you may be acting as the man of the household and as a defacto parent and love her and want what is best for her, she is still should have the right to know her Dad and his family.

If her mother refuses to sign the guradianship papers then he can take her to court and chances are it will be granted.

Daragh86 · 27-08-2010 10:22am

Thaedydal wrote: »

Daragh86 I've moved this to a thread of it's own rather then have it in the middle of the rights and awareness thread.

Thank you.

Thaedydal wrote: »

He is her Dad and while you may be acting as the man of the household and as a defacto parent and love her and want what is best for her, she is still should have the right to know her Dad and his family.

I completely understand what your saying and I more than anyone insists that her dad is her dad and I'm definately not trying to take that place or stop that from happening. It would just be a shame for all involved if this was to happen, decision making would be a nightmare, he's a complete idiot. If things stayed the same as they are now without formal guardianship nobody would stop him from seeing her, that's definately not what it is about.

Anyhow I do see your point and in some ways agree, thanks for your advice.

Wantobe · 27-08-2010 12:25pm

Thaedyal is right. If you say no and he goes to court it is almost inevitable that he will be granted joint guardianship. So you would be much better off to consent with good grace. It would be much better for this little girl if both her parents and you got on well together.

Saying things like when she stays at his house, his parents mind her as he is never there is not helpful and is indicative of how you feel about him. I completely understand that you feel this way but if you could be the bigger person and try to develop a friendly relationship for the little girls sake that would be best for all.

Daragh86 · 27-08-2010 12:56pm

Wantobe wrote: »

Thaedyal is right. If you say no and he goes to court it is almost inevitable that he will be granted joint guardianship. So you would be much better off to consent with good grace. It would be much better for this little girl if both her parents and you got on well together.

Saying things like when she stays at his house, his parents mind her as he is never there is not helpful and is indicative of how you feel about him. I completely understand that you feel this way but if you could be the bigger person and try to develop a friendly relationship for the little girls sake that would be best for all.

We have a friendly relationship and tend to look kindly on his idiotic actions letting them slip most of the time.

I understand how people feel about situations of single fathers and guardianship but in this case it really would not be for the better and for people to just suggest laying down and letting this girls life go downhill which is definately what will happen is disappointing.

Children do need both their mother and father and I'm not saying different, I agree completely. He has as much say about his daughter's life as any other father single or not but at the end of the day having completely 50/50 say is not going to work, it will only cause arguements.

Not all cases of potential joint guardianship are workable, honest and better for the child.

My apologies for being rude but I didn't come here to be told that having an absolute idiot having a 50% say on the upbringing of a 4 year old is better than a full time, hard working, caring mother having 65% of a say on the matter.

If anybody has any suggestions of how we might put a case together for him not to get joint guardianship of his daughter I'd appreciate it greatly.

Nevyn · 27-08-2010 1:14pm

If you are going to fight it then you are going to need to talk to a family lawyer.

I can understand that he's not a wonderful example of a parent or an adult and it's not fair that any child should have to deal with less then optimal parenting but sometimes life is just not ideal or fair and all you can do it minimise it and support them the best you can.

Wantobe · 27-08-2010 1:25pm

I'd say- genuinely- forget fighting this.

Joint guardianship is different to joint custody- and it is, in practical terms, the person with custody who makes most decisions.

But at the end of the day, he is her father and he is entitled to be involved in the decision making process of her upbringing.

ash23 · 27-08-2010 1:32pm

I suggest you leave this to your partner and the childs father to sort out without getting overly involved.
You don't actually have any say-so in this matter so venting about him is futile.

Daragh86 · 27-08-2010 1:35pm

Wantobe wrote: »

As someone with a good deal of experience in family law ( practicing solicitor) I'd say- genuinely- forget fighting this.

Joint guardianship is different to joint custody- and it is, in practical terms, the person with custody who makes most decisions.

But at the end of the day, he is her father and he is entitled to be involved in the decision making process of her upbringing.

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give? - as in how much of a say and how far can that say be pushed? Would guardianship entitle him to take the piss (eg. not bringing her home on time, not picking her up, insisting holy god makes it rain - idiot, not paying maintenance, etc.) without explination or repercussion?

Thanks for all the help and advice all, I appreciate it.

ash23 · 27-08-2010 1:44pm

Daragh86 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give? - as in how much of a say and how far can that say be pushed? Would guardianship entitle him to take the piss (eg. not bringing her home on time, not picking her up, insisting holy god makes it rain - idiot, not paying maintenance, etc.) without explination or repercussion?

Thanks for all the help and advice all, I appreciate it.

From http://www.dad.ie/details.aspx?id=61

Guardianship rights allow you to make the major decisions in a child’s life – what religion she has, what school she goes to, where she lives, consenting to her medical treatment, adoption, allowing her to travel.

Basically if you both decide to change religion, or move abroad, or send her to boarding school etc he can contest this. If an agreement can't be reached it would go to court and a decision made for the child.

metrovelvet · 27-08-2010 1:46pm

ash23 wrote: »

From http://www.dad.ie/details.aspx?id=61

Basically if you both decide to change religion, or move abroad, or send her to boarding school etc he can contest this. If an agreement can't be reached it would go to court and a decision made for the child.

And he will get the child in the case of the mother's death unless he agrees to an alternative arrangement.

Since you are not married to your gilrfriend the law will see you as superflous in all this. As you are not a father, and not even a step father.

Cat Melodeon · 27-08-2010 1:50pm

Daragh86 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give? - as in how much of a say and how far can that say be pushed? Would guardianship entitle him to take the piss (eg. not bringing her home on time, not picking her up, insisting holy god makes it rain - idiot, not paying maintenance, etc.) without explination or repercussion?

Guardianship is a separate issue to custody. What custody agreement is in place at the moment? Is it in writing? Does he violate it at will? If there is no formal custody arrangement in place, get one sorted so that all access issues are transparent.

Daragh86 · 27-08-2010 2:17pm

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

Guardianship is a separate issue to custody. What custody agreement is in place at the moment? Is it in writing? Does he violate it at will? If there is no formal custody arrangement in place, get one sorted so that all access issues are transparent.

There are no formal arrangements put in place in relation to maintenance, custody, etc. We have been very accomodating with his lack of a brain and so has his daughter, being let down by him constantly. It is far from ideal but we have tried to put everything in place we can to minimise the effect this has on the child - the most important part of all this.

I think I may have come to the wrong forum as most seem to be pro single father rights eventhough it's not the right thing to do.

In this situation nobody, especially me, is trying to take his daughter away from him, I in fact try my best to accomodate him but for him to seek joint guardianship for a child he has not actively shown an interest in or made an effort to do the right thing with is extremely frustrating, not just for me but more so for my girlfriend. She tries so hard to raise her daughter honestly and properly and this will all be for nothing if he gets joint guardianship. This isn't just an issue because of my presence, if I wasn't around my girlfriend would not want him having joint guardianship and he probably wouldn't be interested in her upbringing nevermind her guardianship - as I said previsouly he has only pulled his socks up since we moved into our house together, even at this he only takes her one day a week and most of that time she spends with his sister/mother/father.

I'm going to wrap this up now because it will only get out of hand and I think we've come to the conclusion that there is not much point in chasing this up in court but in ten years time when it matters we can always say we tried our best.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice.

ash23 · 27-08-2010 2:30pm

Daragh86 wrote: »

I think I may have come to the wrong forum as most seem to be pro single father rights eventhough it's not the right thing to do.

My daughters dad has never met her. My daughters step dad acts the bollix. Having seen the damage the lack of contact with her biological father has done to her, I can assure you, my viewpoint is only pro-child. And no matter what a father is like, the child has the right to see them and the right to be legally tied to them.

In this situation nobody, especially me, is trying to take his daughter away from him, I in fact try my best to accomodate him but for him to seek joint guardianship for a child he has not actively shown an interest in or made an effort to do the right thing with is extremely frustrating, not just for me but more so for my girlfriend. She tries so hard to raise her daughter honestly and properly and this will all be for nothing if he gets joint guardianship.

Not true at all. Him having joint guardianship is a good thing. Unless you and your girlfriend try to do something drastic, joint guardianship will not have any impact on her daughters upbringing. You have stated that this man is making more of an effort as of late. He saw his daughter weekly, he now has her 2 nights a week and is looking for more responsibility towards her. This is a GOOD thing for the child. Some men just need time. And to be honest, the way you speak about him on this thread is offensive. No matter what, this man is that childs father and she will love him for that reason alone. And having you put him down is not right. You have been very insulting while referring to him. Beware that the child doesn't pick up on this attitude as I would imagine she will not appreciate it.

This isn't just an issue because of my presence, if I wasn't around my girlfriend would not want him having joint guardianship and he probably wouldn't be interested in her upbringing nevermind her guardianship - as I said previsouly he has only pulled his socks up since we moved into our house together, even at this he only takes her one day a week and most of that time she spends with his sister/mother/father.

Thats not her decision to make. She made choices and she got pregnant by this man and the result of that is that she is stuck with him now in terms of parenting with him.
She hasn't a hope of him not getting guardianship imo. Most men are granted it if it goes to court. By fighting it she will be creating bad feeling and the only person who will be affected by that is the child.

I would think that the pair of you should try and see him wanting to be involved as a good thing rather than a bad thing. Encourage it rather than fighting it. And stop talking dissing the childs father. If you can't say anything nice then say nothing.

Just to add

My apologies for being rude but I didn't come here to be told that having an absolute idiot having a 50% say on the upbringing of a 4 year old is better than a full time, hard working, caring mother having 65% of a say on the matter.

At the moment, the way things stand, he has 0% of a say. And you have 0% of a say. And the mother has 100%. There is no way of splitting it other than 50/50. Just the way it is.

PS are you planning on marrying her before you have children? If not will you be so eager for her to have 100% say if she refuses joint guardianship with you because she decides you are an idiot down the line?

Khannie · 27-08-2010 2:39pm

ash23 wrote: »

I suggest you leave this to your partner and the childs father to sort out without getting overly involved.
You don't actually have any say-so in this matter so venting about him is futile.

He has committed himself to a relationship with both the mother and the child. He obviously cares very much for the welfare of that child. Any decision between the mother and father will impact him directly. Why should he have no say in it? It sounds like he's more of a father than her biological one.

ash23 wrote: »

And to be honest, the way you speak about him on this thread is offensive. No matter what, this man is that childs father and she will love him for that reason alone. And having you put him down is not right. You have been very insulting while referring to him. Beware that the child doesn't pick up on this attitude as I would imagine she will not appreciate it.

What if the guy's a total asshat? He shouldn't be berated for it? I don't get what the problem with calling a poor father a poor father is.

ash23 · 27-08-2010 2:44pm

Khannie wrote: »

He has committed himself to a relationship with both the mother and the child. He obviously cares very much for the welfare of that child. Any decision between the mother and father will impact him directly. Why should he have no say in it? It sounds like he's more of a father than her biological one.

He can have an input (as far as the mother is concerned) but the ultimate issue is between the mother and father and nothing to do with him.

The child has two parents and it's up to them to decide what way the child is raised. This man wants the father having no say in how the child is raised. Why should he have a say if the biological father doesn't? Makes no sense.

Maybe the father is a total asshat. But he is the childs father. And as any separated parent knows, one of the main things is to bite your tongue and not speak ill of the other parent.

Difficult to do but they basically want to go to court and say the bio father is useless. He will probably be granted guardianship and when the child grows up, her biological father will have ammo, that her mother and step father tried to stop him from having a say in her life.

Khannie · 27-08-2010 3:01pm

ash23 wrote: »

He can have an input (as far as the mother is concerned) but the ultimate issue is between the mother and father and nothing to do with him.

Well....I take your point, but I think the level of input that he gets should be high since it will directly affect him.

ash23 wrote: »

The child has two parents

See I don't really agree with this bit. I'm not trying to pick your post apart I'm just in a somewhat similar situation. My sons dad isn't present (at all) but I wouldn't say that he
has one parent just because I didn't conceive him. I would say that there's a good chance the child in this case effectively has 3 parents. A lot of that will depend on how much authority the mother gives him in the house.

ash23 wrote: »

Why should he have a say if the biological father doesn't? Makes no sense.

I'm not saying that he should / that the bio dad shouldn't. I don't know enough about the situation tbh. We're only hearing one side here after all.

Wantobe · 27-08-2010 3:06pm

Daragh86 wrote: »

I think I may have come to the wrong forum as most seem to be pro single father rights eventhough it's not the right thing to do.

That's one of the drawbacks of a public internet forum- you don't always hear what you want to hear.

You initially asked advice about fighting an application for guardianship- you've been advised that it is probably futile and that in doing so you may be jeopardising any chance of friendly relations with this little girl's father. That's good advice, whether you choose to take it is up to you.

Cavehill Red · 27-08-2010 3:06pm

Just want to object to the term 'bio dad' which has been used by the OP and others in this thread.
There is no mention of adoption in this case.
The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.
The OP is not the father. He is at best stepfather. And he needs to leave matters of parenting up to the actual parents in this case.
Reading between the lines (snide comments about the father 'lacking a brain' and so on), the OP could be as much of a problem in this situation as anything else.

The Corinthian · 27-08-2010 3:10pm

Daragh86 wrote: »

If you don't mind me asking, how much entitlement does joint guardianship give?

Not a lot. I believe the legal origin of guardianship was in the case of a child becoming the ward of a relative or someone else in the event of the parents' deaths, so is not exactly designed for modern scenarios.

Another important point is that even with guardianship, this does not mean he'll keep it. Guardianship obtained through the courts or agreement can be lost if the father is shown to have shirked his responsibilities.

What it affords, in theory, is the following:

It gives the guardian a legal say over the religious and educational upbringing of the child.
The consent of all guardians is required for an adoption.
The permission of all guardians is required to take the child outside of the state. This naturally can be overruled in court, especially if there is little or no contact between the child and non-custodial guardian.
The non-custodial guardian will inherit custody of the child upon the death or incapacitation of the custodial parent.

Could the bio-father cause trouble for the sake of it with guardianship? Yes, but it's limited as to what he could do. He could refuse to give permission to let you bring the child on holiday, for example, but if a court saw that he was just acting the mick, they'd not only find against him but block his right to object legally again (this is already something that happens with custodial parents who repeatedly bring the non-custodial parent to court for maintenance for no good reason).

Where it comes to the religious and educational upbringing of the child, in practice, these rights are either unenforceable or unenforced and courts will generally side with the custodial parent. Possibly he could if the custodial parent join a cult or decided to 'home-school' the child, but even then I'd have my doubts.

Overall, all of these would be, at worst, temporary forms of harassment that would go down on his file and before long he would be unable to exercise any of them.

Adoption and custody upon the death or incapacitation of the custodial parent are the only two rights left. TBH, if the guy is a complete disaster, as you've made him out to be, he is unlikely to seek custody in the event of the latter. It would make little sense unless it were to qualify as a lone parent under social welfare, and TBH if you think that's a valid reason then you could say that of any lone parent on social welfare - so best we don't go there.

From what you're describing, your main objection to him is that he's an "idiot". I appreciate this, but if we judged who was fit to have (custody of) a child on their IQ or social competence, a good portion of the parents out there, single and otherwise, would not have custody.

I also appreciate that you would not want your future children to be deprived of their half-sister, but ultimately she's not your daughter, she's his.

Had you considered speaking with him about this? To explain your concerns about future siblings? If he had considered the scenario whereby he gets custody and if he would really be capable of this?

It's quite likely, with your girlfriend and you moving in together, planning a family and all the rest, that he's concerned that you may end up adopting his daughter, thus airbrushing him out of her life forever. That he recently 'upped his ante' in connection to you moving in together seems to point at this for me.

All that guardianship may mean to him is a means to block this very real eventuality - and I'm saying this because you've already thought about custody in the event of your girlfriend's death - and that beyond this he has no other intentions, ulterior or otherwise.

ash23 wrote: »

And as any separated parent knows, one of the main things is to bite your tongue and not speak ill of the other parent.

If only that was the case in practice.

Khannie · 27-08-2010 3:10pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.

I get called dad and have done for nigh on 8 years now. While I'm in the middle of the adoption process, I don't think it's a pre-requisite for the use of the word dad (certainly wasn't in my case). Maybe it is required in the legal sense, but I don't live in a legal world really.

I think "bio dad" is just being used as a term to differentiate. You have no idea how involved the OP is in the childs life. Maybe she does call him dad.

Cavehill Red · 27-08-2010 3:14pm

Khannie wrote: »

I get called dad and have done for nigh on 8 years now. While I'm in the middle of the adoption process, I don't think it's a pre-requisite for the use of the word dad (certainly wasn't in my case). Maybe it is required in the legal sense, but I don't live in a legal world really.

I think "bio dad" is just being used as a term to differentiate. You have no idea how involved the OP is in the childs life. Maybe she does call him dad.

If you want to differentiate between the child's father and the man living with the child's mother, father and stepfather work just fine.
Talking about 'bio dads' is an attempt to demean the position of the non-custodial parent to the status of washing powder.
Your scenario is different, in that an adoption process is ongoing.

metrovelvet · 27-08-2010 3:18pm

Khannie wrote: »

Well....I take your point, but I think the level of input that he gets should be high since it will directly affect him.

See I don't really agree with this bit. I'm not trying to pick your post apart I'm just in a somewhat similar situation. My sons dad isn't present (at all) but I wouldn't say that he
has one parent just because I didn't conceive him. I would say that there's a good chance the child in this case effectively has 3 parents. A lot of that will depend on how much authority the mother gives him in the house.

I'm not saying that he should / that the bio dad shouldn't. I don't know enough about the situation tbh. We're only hearing one side here after all.

People are always going to dispute the blood bond. Blood is thicker than water and all that. But then love can be thicker than blood.

I think in this case the father, even if he is a noob, is still a presence and that cant be discounted.

Khannie · 27-08-2010 3:18pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Talking about 'bio dads' is an attempt to demean the position of the non-custodial parent to the status of washing powder.

I disagree. I think you're reading too much into it. Just my 2c. I used the term and meant no harm by it.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Your scenario is different, in that an adoption process is ongoing.

It is only recent. I'd been called dad for many years before we even started it.

metrovelvet wrote: »

even if he is a noob

metrovelvet · 27-08-2010 3:19pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

If you want to differentiate between the child's father and the man living with the child's mother, father and stepfather work just fine.
Talking about 'bio dads' is an attempt to demean the position of the non-custodial parent to the status of washing powder.
Your scenario is different, in that an adoption process is ongoing.

I don't know why you are getting so touchy about the lingo. In blended families, there are bio moms, step moms, bio dads and step dads, same with siblings.

Cavehill Red · 27-08-2010 3:23pm

Khannie wrote: »

I disagree. I think you're reading too much into it. Just my 2c. I used the term and meant no harm by it.

I've an elderly relative refers affectionately to 'darkies'. I'm not sure black people would be impressed. Your intention to cause harm or not is irrelevant to whether it does cause offence. It does.

Khannie wrote: »

It is only recent. I'd been called dad for many years before we even started it.

By the child. And that's sweet. As you said, you don't consider legality overly and that's fair enough. But legally, you're not dad. You're stepdad until you adopt the child.
I'm not responding to Metrovelvet's trolling, as this is not the first thread they have come on to post offensively about fathers.

ash23 · 27-08-2010 3:30pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Just want to object to the term 'bio dad' which has been used by the OP and others in this thread.
There is no mention of adoption in this case.
The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.
The OP is not the father. He is at best stepfather. And he needs to leave matters of parenting up to the actual parents in this case.
Reading between the lines (snide comments about the father 'lacking a brain' and so on), the OP could be as much of a problem in this situation as anything else.

Apologies for that. it's a habit I picked up myself. I refer to my daughters dad as her bio dad as I haven't seen him since I told him I was pregnant. I raised her with my (now ex) partner and call him step dad. Not really an apt description in this case as the father is involved.

Khannie wrote:

See I don't really agree with this bit. I'm not trying to pick your post apart I'm just in a somewhat similar situation. My sons dad isn't present (at all) but I wouldn't say that he
has one parent just because I didn't conceive him. I would say that there's a good chance the child in this case effectively has 3 parents. A lot of that will depend on how much authority the mother gives him in the house.

I disagree. I think that primarily a child has 2 parents and while other people can be involved/heavily involved, the child has 2 parents. End of.
My daughter has me, her father (who she has never met) and her step father (who raised her, who she calls dad, who she still sees). However since we live apart her step father no longer has responsibilities towards her. He sees her but he doesn't play the father role. And therefore the decisions are all mine.
The OP wouldn't want to pay maintenance, have strict access and have the "downside" of parenting this child if they split up. He may still want to see her but he would not want to parent her.

Cavehill Red · 27-08-2010 3:45pm

Children can have loads of caregivers. Parents, stepparents, grandparents, blood relatives, relatives by marriage or other relationships, all sorts.
I'd consider my child to have four or five 'parent-type' relationships.
But only two are designated father and mother, and they are the genetic parents unless one or other or both has given up that responsibility via permitting the adoption of the child (and parental responsibility) by someone else.

Khannie · 27-08-2010 3:54pm

ash23 wrote: »

He may still want to see her but he would not want to parent her.

You have no idea what he would or would not want to be fair.

Khannie · 27-08-2010 3:58pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I'm not responding to Metrovelvet's trolling, as this is not the first thread they have come on to post offensively about fathers.

Yes you are. If you have a problem with a post, please report it.

Cavehill Red · 27-08-2010 4:00pm

Khannie wrote: »

Yes you are. If you have a problem with a post, please report it.

I prefer to ignore them, thanks.

metrovelvet · 27-08-2010 4:03pm

ash23 wrote: »

Apologies for that. it's a habit I picked up myself. I refer to my daughters dad as her bio dad as I haven't seen him since I told him I was pregnant. I raised her with my (now ex) partner and call him step dad. Not really an apt description in this case as the father is involved.

Step father does not mean surrogate father. It is the name of the mother's spouse who is not the biological father of the child[ren]. It has nothing to do with the involvement of the other parent.

ash23 wrote: »

I disagree. I think that primarily a child has 2 parents and while other people can be involved/heavily involved, the child has 2 parents. End of.
My daughter has me, her father (who she has never met) and her step father (who raised her, who she calls dad, who she still sees). However since we live apart her step father no longer has responsibilities towards her. He sees her but he doesn't play the father role. And therefore the decisions are all mine.

There are a lot of people doing that in all honesty, including fathers. Her own father didnt want to play the father role either.

ash23 wrote: »

The OP wouldn't want to pay maintenance, have strict access and have the "downside" of parenting this child if they split up. He may still want to see her but he would not want to parent her.

You don't know that. Whether he would be allowed to by his ex is another story, but he may very well would want to. And he would have less guarantors behind him than the bio dads to do that, despite the relationship he may have formed with the kids.

Khannie · 27-08-2010 4:04pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I prefer to ignore them, thanks.

My point was that you didn't ignore it. You indirectly accused another poster of trolling. I'm telling you not to do that again. Thanks.

smelltheglove · 27-08-2010 5:57pm

Just my 2 cents for the op.

I met my husband when my daughter was just 1, I had my own house and he moved in shortly after. I consulted her father about this first. At that stage her father would talke her one night a week usually collecting her in the evening and dropping her off in the afternoon.

Still to this day her father lives with his parents, in the last year she got her own room finally which she is delighted about. Her dad has made mistakes but I have also made mistakes, no parent is perfect but it is the love for their child that shows the absent parents mistakes above their own. My daughters dad has increased his interest as she has gotten older, as a primary carer to the child it would come natural to you to put her first at all times. He is not a primary carer to the child as he takes her twice a week the rest of his time he is out for number one so some things that come naturally to you may not come naturally to him.

For my daughter, her dad has not asked for joint guardianship, if he did it would be given to him as he is her dad but since he is included in every decision I suppose he has felt no need to ask. You sound as if you have little respect for this man, which I feel may be unjust, how do you think you would get along with him if you had nothing to do with your partner when you met? Chances are you may have gotten along so you should try put yourself in his shoes too, give him a little respect, ok maybe you think no he doesnt deserve it but lets be honest, its not hard and it will make life a whole lot easier.

I'm all for fathers rights, I'd be very vocal about it and I was a single mother! Your child has a right to know her father and have him being an integral part in her life, I say your child as my child is my husbands, as she is her fathers, my husband has spent more time with her than her father and I give him just as much input as her father gets, this is a mutual understanding that was never discussed, he rears her as much as I do, more at the minute since he is unemployed due to recession but he has huge input, as does her dad.

Your childs father has a right to make decisions and giving him that piece of paper just means his rights are recognised by law. As a guardian he would have say on her health, god forbid anything happened he would have as much say in what happens as her mother which he is entitled to. I honestly think signing the form is the only way, it wont change your life in anyway, you can request an agreement should anything happen to your partner, I havent done this but I would doubt my childs father would interupt her life in anyway should anything happen and prefer her to stay with her sister. The better the relationship is between parents the easier it is on both, I know I can rely on my childs dad and his family for anything as I give them the respect, visitation and decisions they deserve, we are all in it for her and thankfully his family even cherish my younger child with my husband and have offered many a time to babysit when we have been stuck.

Putting the effort into the relationship with your childs father between not only her mother but also yourself will make life a whole lot easier for the child and the parents. Im not saying be a yes man and bow to his every needs but give him as much say as you have, this is his human right.

Nevyn · 29-08-2010 3:40pm

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Just want to object to the term 'bio dad' which has been used by the OP and others in this thread.
There is no mention of adoption in this case.
The person in question is the child's father, dad for short.
The OP is not the father. He is at best stepfather. And he needs to leave matters of parenting up to the actual parents in this case.
Reading between the lines (snide comments about the father 'lacking a brain' and so on), the OP could be as much of a problem in this situation as anything else.

This thread was split from another one and I put the term Bio Dad in the title.
I dont' see it as demeaning, it's a commonly used terms and I am sorry if you find it offensive but I don't consider it to make less of anyone, there are other sides which will call fathers who do not have contact with their children sperm donars and that I would not tolerate as it is offensive.

As for you not reporting posts, I suggest you learn to do so as posting in thread rather then reporting can drag threads of topic and be disruptive to the forum and that can lead to forum bans.

Daragh86 · 30-08-2010 7:33am

I said I'd end on my last post but thought it best to expand a little on a few posts after reading a couple replies over the weekend.

As I have said before I am all for my her father being around, I encourage it more than anyone in the family (girlfriend, grandparents, etc.) because I believe that she does need her bio dad - I'm not saying any different, end of story on that one!

I wouldn't even consider saying anything downgrading or insulting about the child's bio dad to her at all, I have more respect for her and myself to ever think about it, he will in time manage to ruin it all by himself through his actions - or lack of them. Another point put to bed...

To expand on my term "idiot" and most people don't seem to agree but in my opinion some people aren't fit to be parents and ultimitly this was a very bad decision on my girlfriend's part and she fully understands that but it's all well and good saying that in hindsight - I've made some major messes for myself but I learn from these and put these right going forward. Her bio dad during the boom couldn't hold down any sort of a job, constantly unemployed. He is now unemployed for about a year and a half (got fired from his last job, not let go). He's claiming welfare and working on the side part time. He lives with his parents where he doesn't provide a bedroom for his daughter and not even a bed, she sleeps on a blow up bed on his bedroom floor. When he takes her he generally does either work or be out socialising, his daughter is left between his sister and his mother and father. He doesn't need to work to support his daughter (15 euro a week is all he is asked for to cover half of school costs) so no excuses not to see her on the days he has her. When he has her he doesn't dress her, his mother does. He doesn't cook for her, his mother does. Generally he doesn't pick her up from our house or drop her off, generally his mother or sister. She eats take aways for lunch and dinner everytime she stays at his parents house.

I could go on and this is all things I would never never think of saying to the child, it is not my business or anyone's business to point out to her his downfalls. I'm not out to stop him from being her father and seeing her. My view of the situation is that he wants 50% of the decision making without taking 50% of the responsibilities of raising her.

If he was to prove to my girlfriend that he is capable of taking on 50% on the responsibilities in raising her I'm sure joint guardianship wouldn't be an issue, but until then she would rather not have him having 50% decision making capabilities. I thought this would be a pretty realistic view of the situation and a shared view amoungst a majority? All that is being thought about from my point of view and my girlfriends is her daughters best interests, nothing else.

The Corinthian · 30-08-2010 8:02am

Daragh86 wrote: »

I could go on and this is all things I would never never think of saying to the child, it is not my business or anyone's business to point out to her his downfalls. I'm not out to stop him from being her father and seeing her. My view of the situation is that he wants 50% of the decision making without taking 50% of the responsibilities of raising her.

With all due respects Daragh, he may well be an idiot but he is still her father. Ultimately that's what it comes down to and in that respect he is no more an idiot than many single mothers or even couples who feed their kids nothing but take-out every day - if it didn't come down to that children would be taken from their parents far more often. But they're not and such drastic actions are only carried out in extreme cases, where the child's life is threatened.

It seems to me that behind your protestations of looking out for the child's and mother's best interests you also have another agenda. You have effectively accepted this child as your own. You are settling down with this child's mother and are about to being a family together. Your priorities now, understandably, are to protect that new family, your future children and their relationship with their half-sibling. And to this end her father is a serious fly in the ointment.

As I said earlier, my guess is that the father has picked up on this. His fear is that he will end up being airbrushed out of his daughter's life. The threat that you will eventually adopt her and/or move away is a very real one to him and without guardianship his options are limited. And this is why he is seeking the guarantee of guardianship - which, if nothing else, will stop an adoption. He may be seeking nothing more.

Talk to him. Ultimately if this is the reason he is going after guardianship, then the two of you talking it through could be hugely beneficial to dealing with both of your anxieties.

If he was to prove to my girlfriend that he is capable of taking on 50% on the responsibilities in raising her I'm sure joint guardianship wouldn't be an issue, but until then she would rather not have him having 50% decision making capabilities. I thought this would be a pretty realistic view of the situation and a shared view amoungst a majority? All that is being thought about from my point of view and my girlfriends is her daughters best interests, nothing else.

In a perfect World, that would be great, but a little impractical when you don't have custody. As things stand though, he does not have 50% of the decision making, he has 0% - and while he may not have 50% of the responsibilities of raising her, he has more that 0%. So if you really do believe in an equitable exchange of responsibility for rights, then you need to accept that he will have to get some say.

TBH, if he were to take 50% of the responsibilities of raising her, then it would not be joint guardianship that he should be getting, but joint custody.

Daragh86 · 30-08-2010 8:48am

The Corinthian wrote: »

It seems to me that behind your protestations of looking out for the child's and mother's best interests you also have another agenda.

This is definately not the case, obviously I can't prove it but you'll just have to take my word for it.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Talk to him. Ultimately if this is the reason he is going after guardianship, then the two of you talking it through could be hugely beneficial to dealing with both of your anxieties.

Unfortunately his communication skills are lacking a small bit, obvious lies are about all that would come from that.

The Corinthian wrote: »

he does not have 50% of the decision making, he has 0%

He is always consulted about major decisions. All decisions are discussed with him including religion, school, sports, etc. And they are strictly discussed between him and my girlfriend and it has been made clear on several ocassions that I don't influence any decisions.

The Corinthian wrote: »

So if you really do believe in an equitable exchange of responsibility for rights, then you need to accept that he will have to get some say.

He has the say as stated above so why shouldn't he prove he is responsible enough to take both rights and responsibility? Is it fair to demand and be granted one without giving due regard to the other?

The Corinthian · 30-08-2010 9:09am

Daragh86 wrote: »

This is definately not the case, obviously I can't prove it but you'll just have to take my word for it.

I'm simply reading this from a tell-tale comment you made earlier: "the case that something may happen to my girlfriend in the future he would have sole guardianship of her then and would remove her from what would be her family home with half brothers or sisters". So that agenda, by your own admission, is definitely there in some shape or form.

Unfortunately his communication skills are lacking a small bit, obvious lies are about all that would come from that.

Quite possibly, after all he has absolutely no reason to trust you. You never know though, you can but try. Way I see it, it's actually your best option.

He is always consulted about major decisions. All decisions are discussed with him including religion, school, sports, etc.

'Consulted' is a pretty nebulous term though. It can mean a genuine say in the upbringing of the child, but it can also mean little more than 'informed' and were he to disagree with any decision, there is little or no point in even voicing that disagreement as it would ultimately be overruled.

He has the say as stated above so why shouldn't he prove he is responsible enough to take both rights and responsibility? Is it fair to demand and be granted one without giving due regard to the other?

Depends on whether he really has a say, as I also pointed out above. After all, as a biological father without guardianship, he also has a right to be 'consulted' (if reasonably possible) on his child being adopted by someone else, but that doesn't mean he has any right in the decision.

Big Bag of Chips · 30-08-2010 9:33am

Just on the point that if something were to happen your gf that he would be sole guardian..

Check out the legalities of it, as I'm not 100%, but I think your gf can appoint you as a testamentary guardian in her will. It wouldn't be automatic that the child would have to go live with her father. If it was to go to court, a judge would look at the family circumstances, siblings, length of time with the "step-family" etc.

At the end of the day though, you need to stop concentrating your energy on what he does or doesn't do. So what if he doesn't dress her. I have a husband.. who I live with! He rarely dresses our children. Has never bathed them etc.. Doesn't make him an idiot, or less responsible! Or less entitled to be a parent or guardian to our children.

From your post I get the impression that it's his mother that's the problem and not necessarily him!It's not really the case that he does nothing, it's that she does everything! If she refused to do it and made him step up to the mark, then he's have to.. as it is, he has someone else to do it for him (like my husband has!) so why would he do it himself?! My sister lived at home for a while with her first child.. my mother did everything. EVERYTHING! My mother did it, and my sister let her.

Almost everyone who has replied, on a parenting forum, has told you you need to let him just get on with it. He has a different style of parenting than you and your gf, doesn't make him wrong. Just makes him different.

There are lots of "idiot" parents out there, who manage quite well!

smelltheglove · 30-08-2010 9:36am

You seem blind to the fact that as the chillds father he is entitled to guardianship, I'm sorry if that may sound harsh but it is the vibe I get from your posts. You may think he is an idiot for some of his life choices, for the fact that he doesnt hold down a job but at the end of the day his career prospects or lack of actually have nothing to do with his abilities as a parent or his love for his child.

So what if his mother makes the dinner, it is her house and may have been her role for a long time, again so what if she dresses the child, he may feel uncomfortable dressing a young girl when there is someone else who can do it. His mother is the childs grandmother and most likely loves her very much and wants to have a hands on role when the child is around, this does not reflect ont he fathers abilities.

You seem to knock the father at every opportunity and calling him an idiot to me is disrespectful, you may say that you dont voice these opinions around the child or her father but come on, kids have ears and were she to hear you speak of him in this manner I doubt she would be a happy child and possibly lose respect for you.

I am really sorry if I appear to be slating you over this behaviour, as a child from a broken home myself the attitudes seperated parents have towards each other infuriates me, some people just don't think about the affect it will have on their children and worst of all, don't think about how their opinion of their parents will change once they are adult enough to realise the petty behaviour. From experience, it doesnt matter what kind of parent you are, good or bad, when you have a negative attitude to the other parent in all likelihood the child will have a negative attitude towards your parenting skills later in life.

The child is the number one person here and you don't like her dad, well so what, he is her dad, he is entitled to the security guardianship will bring to him and he is entitled to be respected for his role in her life. As much as I am aware there are asses out there who mess around too much obviously this man loves his child, taking her twice a week and requesting guardianship shows the fact that she means a lot to him.

I wonder are you this vocal around your girlfriend about your feelings? Does she really feel no she doesnt want to grant guardianship or is it a fact that she may be agreeable due to your blatant dislike for this guy.

Just some quotes here to show what leads me to my opinion.

I wouldn't even consider saying anything downgrading or insulting about the child's bio dad to her at all, I have more respect for her and myself to ever think about it, he will in time manage to ruin it all by himself through his actions - or lack of them

To expand on my term "idiot" and most people don't seem to agree but in my opinion some people aren't fit to be parents and ultimitly this was a very bad decision on my girlfriend's part and she fully understands that

Unfortunately his communication skills are lacking a small bit, obvious lies are about all that would come from that.

metrovelvet · 30-08-2010 9:43am

In your first post you seemed concerned about the prospect of starting your own family with your girlfriend, something happening to your girlfriend, and your step-daughter [I will use this word for lack of a better one, although as you are not married it does not really apply] being reclaimed by her bio dad.

Would that be correct?

Can I play devil's advocate here?

You seem like a good guy. You seem loyal and caring. You seem to know when to step off to let the bios make their decisions. This is all good. You seem to be concerned for the child and the future you all have together as a family.

However. Time and time again, if you read about it in books, online, in anecdotes, etc. People will tell you once you have your own biologically, it's all different. Now I know there are exceptions to this, perhaps you will be one, but no one can know that. What I would fear, even as the bio mother, is that if I died and left this child among half siblings and a step dad, that the child would be somehow, even in the most subtleest of ways, treated differently. And then lets say you meet someone new. Chances are you would. You think this person would want to raise a child that is not even yours?

Whatever kind of a noob he is, he still should have the right to his daughter in the case of her mother's death. You of course, would have the right to contest it on many grounds.

But even if the child did live with you, as a step father, you still have no rights to sign medical consent forms, open bank accounts for the child, travel, etc etc. The child would ultimately be living with someone who is legally unable to protect her, unless your girlfriend has set out some kind of guaardinship for you in her will. But since you are not even married, it wont stand a chance. Seriously, if unmarried bio dads dont have these rights, what makes you think 'mommy's boyfriend' will have any?

Daragh86 · 30-08-2010 10:00am

The Corinthian wrote: »

'Consulted' is a pretty nebulous term though. It can mean a genuine say in the upbringing of the child, but it can also mean little more than 'informed' and were he to disagree with any decision

Consulted means consulted, as in a consultation, where things are discussed and agreed upon? This would be a whole lot easier if posts were taken as they are and not picked to bits.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Depends on whether he really has a say, as I also pointed out above. After all, as a biological father without guardianship, he also has a right to be 'consulted' (if reasonably possible) on his child being adopted by someone else, but that doesn't mean he has any right in the decision.

I wouldn't look to adopt a child if there father was present even one day in a year. If the father had passed away for example I might look into purely as a safe guard in the event of the child's mothers absence.

I don't like a lot of people, that doesn't mean I don't get on with them. I never speak of this situation in front of the child. I never push any of my opinions and my girlfriend, I always support her decisions no matter if I agree with or disagree with them.

In my opinion not being comfortable with dressing your daughter and leaving this responsibility with someone else is a cop out, no excuses. This would be far less of an issue if the child's grandmother was to apply for guardianship, she provides something good for her grand daughter.

In my saying "disrespectful" things about her father is simply informing you of the situation. If somebody asked me what my downfalls were I wouldn't lie and say I have none, they're quite obvious. These "disrespectful" remarks are all indications of his lack of will to provide something good for his daughter. People have said numourous times that eventhough somebody may not deserve joint guardianship but because they are their bio dad means they'll get it, does this make it right? He has and will continue to be given every oppertunity to provide something good for his daughter.

I think the question still stands about why shouldn't he prove he is responsible enough to take both rights and responsibility? Is it fair to demand and be granted one without giving due regard to the other?

shortstuff · 30-08-2010 10:08am

It sounds to me like that both of ye (the childs bio-dad and you her step dad, (only using these terms for lack of better ones) are afraid of the same thing. both of you are afraid of losing her if the other one is granted guardianship or adoption(where applicable). You need to sit down and talk to him about your concerns and he to you about his. Ok if he lies he lies that's not on you. Has mediation been tired at any point, either between your partner and her ex or maybe perhaps all three of ye seeing as you are all sayin thay ye only want what's best for the little girl that's caught in the middle of all this?

smelltheglove · 30-08-2010 10:10am

Daragh86 wrote: »

People have said numourous times that eventhough somebody may not deserve joint guardianship but because they are their bio dad means they'll get it, does this make it right? He has and will continue to be given every oppertunity to provide something good for his daughter.

I think the question still stands about why shouldn't he prove he is responsible enough to take both rights and responsibility? Is it fair to demand and be granted one without giving due regard to the other?

A mother may not deserve full guardianship but she gets it, without even having to demand it, is that fair?

Did your girlfriend have to prove she was responsible enough to hold guardianship?

The answer to both questions is no. He is her father, had he and yoru girlfriend been married this wouldnt be an issue as he would have guardianship. It's a messed up legal system that an unmarried father does not get automatic guardianship. He is her father, therefor he is entitled to it, end of.

Daragh86 · 30-08-2010 10:20am

shortstuff wrote: »

It sounds to me like that both of ye (the childs bio-dad and you her step dad, (only using these terms for lack of better ones) are afraid of the same thing. both of you are afraid of losing her if the other one is granted guardianship or adoption(where applicable). You need to sit down and talk to him about your concerns and he to you about his. Ok if he lies he lies that's not on you. Has mediation been tired at any point, either between your partner and her ex or maybe perhaps all three of ye seeing as you are all sayin thay ye only want what's best for the little girl that's caught in the middle of all this?

I might be giving the wrong impression through this, my apologies if it comes across wrong. Myself and her bio dad get on fine, never a bad word between us and I wouldn't ever say a bad word to him. All dealings with his daughter and issues and dealth with between him and my girlfriend - it's not my business and either is this situation, I am not bringing this back to my girlfriend to influence her, I am discussing here for my own personal reasons and to try to justify this to myself. I am a pretty laid back sort with most issues and I know when to take a step back from something I'm not welcome in.

I should hope that it wouldn't get to a situation of mediation. The ideal outcome would be for him to take on his responsibilities in relation to his daughter and if necessary then to be appointed joint guardian but at the moment this situation is not an option in my girlfriends (and my personal) opinion.

I am concerned about what may or may not happen in the event the absence of my girlfriend from a family situation in the future and I would hope that my girlfriend would have in place something to keep her daughter within the family. Of course if the situation changed and the childs bio dad did take on his responsibilities and provided her with a viable option then of course that'd be an option to follow up on.

Big Bag of Chips · 30-08-2010 10:23am

Daragh, you may not mean it, but you come across as protesting too much. It's clear you don't like this guy. From what you say your gf accepts that she made a mistake by having a baby with him...

But that's irrelevant now. She had a baby with him. He is a father to a child. If she doesn't grant him guardianship, a judge will. Simple.

If down the road he somehow messes up and your gf can prove he doesn't deserve to be a guardian, then it can be taken away from him again. But he will be given a chance. And no, he doesn't have to prove anything. Just as single mothers, or even couples, don't have to prove that they are capable of being responsible for a child before they leave the maternity ward.

He's the child's father. He may have few automatic rights, but if he looks for them he is most likely to be granted them. If he messes up and proves he's not capable, they may be taken away... but he will be given the chance to "prove" himself first.

It's a "learn on the job" scenario... not a "prove you can before you get the job" scenario!

metrovelvet · 30-08-2010 10:25am

Here is an interesting article on step dads.

Step dads can provide more financial support to a child, invest more time, love and patience than a bio dad, but if the cookie crumbles either through death or divorce, sorry charlie, the step parent least of all, has any guarantees.

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/18/garden/stepfathers-the-shoes-rarely-fit.html?pagewanted=1

The Corinthian · 30-08-2010 10:30am

Daragh86 wrote: »

Consulted means consulted, as in a consultation, where things are discussed and agreed upon?

In theory maybe, in practice often not. I'm not saying that this is the case here. On the other hand, it might be and neither you, nor your partner would even be aware of this unless you dispassionately looked at how often there were disagreements and of those how many did not ultimately go her way.

Unfortunately, there's lots of fathers out there who are 'consulted' this way. After being overruled a few times, they learn just to agree, because ultimately the whole process is little more than a charade.

This would be a whole lot easier if posts were taken as they are and not picked to bits.

I'm sorry, but I tend to analyze what people say.

I think the question still stands about why shouldn't he prove he is responsible enough to take both rights and responsibility? Is it fair to demand and be granted one without giving due regard to the other?

The reverse happens, where responsibilities are applied without rights, so why not? Indeed, her mother got her rights before actually proving anything either - unless not having an abortion is considered proof.

Seriously, as I and others have pointed out, guardianship really does not afford him a Hell of a lot in terms of rights. It's not even immutable.

Added to this, he may be an 'idiot' but he has accepted his daughter and is making an effort, albeit poor and/or incompetent, to be involved. If this goes to court he will most likely get guardianship, so even discussing if he should have it is moot.

Your emphasis in this discussion has been to question whether he should have guardianship, if his getting it can be avoided and what are the potential negative implications if he has it.

But you've never actually asked why he would want guardianship. Honestly, regardless of if you talk to him or not, you should try to understand this first. Otherwise you're going to be locked in an endless battle with paranoid phantoms.

Daragh86 · 30-08-2010 10:31am

smelltheglove wrote: »

The answer to both questions is no. He is her father, had he and yoru girlfriend been married this wouldnt be an issue as he would have guardianship. It's a messed up legal system that an unmarried father does not get automatic guardianship. He is her father, therefor he is entitled to it, end of.

I completely disagree. It is a messed up legal system that a (this is going to upset a lot of posters) bad parent gets to make bad decisions where there is a capable other parent (her mother) to make these decisions.

It is so utterly backward and narrow minded to think somebody who can't sort out their own life should be given automatically without due regard the decision making capabilities of a child's life when there is a fully capable individual in place already.

If the other way around and the mother was not proving her worth and not providing something good for a child I should hope that somebody would contest that and the father would, if capable, be granted guardianship. It is an unfortunate reality that mothers do have a bigger role in a child's life, giving birth, breast feeding, etc. naturally give them more of a natural bond, it is only logical to give them the 50/50 decision of guardianship over the father.

The Corinthian · 30-08-2010 10:36am

Daragh86 wrote: »

It is so utterly backward and narrow minded to think somebody who can't sort out their own life should be given automatically without due regard the decision making capabilities of a child's life when there is a fully capable individual in place already.

As has been already pointed out to you, this applies to a lot of parents; custodial single parents, married couples, the lot.

Perhaps we should ask parents to bring a bank statement to the hospital when they give birth, just to prove that they are competent to keep the child?

Bio Dad suddenly seeking guardianship of daughter.

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