is the CD a serious organisation?

Fuinseog

a number of things strike me about the Civil Defence. one is that there is no rank structure. offically there is, but really everyone is equal and everyone is the chief giving orders, which can be quite chaotic.

i could be wrong but I have the feeling that everyone is mixed in together, instead of dividing the unit into section with novice, semi experienced and very experienced.

another thing that strikes me is a lack of proper training. i know CD is not well respected by mountain rescue, because on a search a lot of CD personnel cannot read a map. if you are on a search then zou should know what zou are about.
sometimes i think the only difference between someone from CD and the generla pulic is a uniform.

this is probably not the case with all units, but have heard this from different parts of teh countrz, rural and urban.

Dude, what have you been smoking?

Have you been listening to some Dubliners give out about how we do things down the country?

In a working party, there is a leader, and a deputy leader. We have rank structure which is well-respected by members. In practice a person's first aid level acts as a rank (old school Basic<Intermediate<Advanced, PHECC Levels nowadays) and it works that the more experienced person is the one who acts as leader.

You would separate the basics, intermediate and advanced people? Where are the younger folk to get their experience? How are they to learn? Put them in a room to do hundreds of scenarios with a rescusci-Anne? We learn from our more experienced members.

Mountain Rescue people don't respect Civil Defence as a whole? Well more fool them. I know that the majority of Mountain Rescue folk know exactly what their local CD folk can do, and wouldn't bat an eyelid to call their local unit if they need a hand, and vice versa.

So, in answer to your question, yes we are very much a serious organisation. If there's anything I doubt the seriousness of, it's your post Fuinseog. I sure hope you're not a volunteer.

civdef

CD is a big organisation, which covers the whole country. There are variations in quality. Speaking as a member of both CD and fulltime service, there are some units of CD I wouldn't have any time for, and others I would. The good outnumber the bad though.

There definitely is a rank structure, and it's followed nearly everywhere. Sometimes the problem is that the wrong peope have the rank, but that's a different argument.

As regards levels of experience, the more experienced people usually have the rank. A new member with around 6 month's training knows enough to be useful, anyone without the basics should be kept away from operational work - and in my experience, they are. Sometimes a new member will be brought along in a support role - doesn't take much training to keep a kettle boiled or sandbags filled etc.

As regards mountain rescue looking down on CD, that could be because MR are a specialised organisation. It stands to reason they'll be better at MR than a member of CD who is given basic training in a whole range of areas. CD will assist MR teams at mountain searches, not supplant them. There are also individual members / units with very high navigation skills, which is down to local needs & policy.

I can definitely say that the fact a CD member hasn't got the same navigation skills as a MR team member doesn't mean they're no better than a member of the public at a search. The very fact that they're part of a disciplined team, with training in searching and with comms makes them very useful. That's before you mention first aid and basic rescue skills which members will get during basic training.

I have no doubt that there are units like you describe. They shouldn't be like that and hopefully the numbers are getting smaller. Don't paint the whole organisation with the same brush though.

Fuinseog

civdef wrote: »

CD is a big organisation, which covers the whole country. There are variations in quality. Speaking as a member of both CD and fulltime service, there are some units of CD I wouldn't have any time for, and others I would. The good outnumber the bad though.

There definitely is a rank structure, and it's followed nearly everywhere. Sometimes the problem is that the wrong peope have the rank, but that's a different argument.

As regards levels of experience, the more experienced people usually have the rank. A new member with around 6 month's training knows enough to be useful, anyone without the basics should be kept away from operational work - and in my experience, they are. Sometimes a new member will be brought along in a support role - doesn't take much training to keep a kettle boiled or sandbags filled etc.

As regards mountain rescue looking down on CD, that could be because MR are a specialised organisation. It stands to reason they'll be better at MR than a member of CD who is given basic training in a whole range of areas. CD will assist MR teams at mountain searches, not supplant them. There are also individual members / units with very high navigation skills, which is down to local needs & policy.

I can definitely say that the fact a CD member hasn't got the same navigation skills as a MR team member doesn't mean they're no better than a member of the public at a search. The very fact that they're part of a disciplined team, with training in searching and with comms makes them very useful. That's before you mention first aid and basic rescue skills which members will get during basic training.

I have no doubt that there are units like you describe. They shouldn't be like that and hopefully the numbers are getting smaller. Don't paint the whole organisation with the same brush though.

its not that big an organisation having about 6,000 members. I do not intend to paint the entire organisation with the same brush.

I know some units that seem to cater for a more mature crowd, while others seem to be made up exclusively of teenagers. there appears to be animosity and a complete lack of cooperation between some units. what thez do if thez have to work together is another matter.

i do believe a search and rescue unit should be familair with the hills in their surrounding area and tehz should all be ale to read a map.
more often than not this is the case and their use on a search can be quite limited.

rank badges in many units I have studied appear to be decoration and sometimes the wearer could not tell me what the rank was.

the AFS undergoes fire training but will never be called upon to do any serious task like fight fires.

Jiffex

Ok Fuinseog you really don't know what your talking about. From what you have said your obviously have no experience of Civil Defence or you are out to discredit the organisation for your own benefit.

Civil Defence does have a rank structure in place which is very widely respected in the organisation. Yes sometimes people are promoted who may not be suitable for the job but this happens in every organisation. On the whole people are promoted because of their skill, experience and ability to lead the volunteer.

With regard to experience of the volunteers obviously the only way to gain experience is by being out on duties and this is part of the training process in any organisation no matter if it is voluntary of professional. Duties are split up to ensure there are people of all levels to ensure the continued development of the organisation and that the event is covered to an appropriately hight standard.

In the majority of counties members gain experience in all services. As time goes by volunteers select a service they are good at and specialise in it but still have a broad training in every service. With this multiskilled training everybody is capable to help out at an incident which would be lead by an officer and a core group of highly skilled individuals in that service being used.

How can you say Civil Defence does not have a high standard of training when alot of the training is supervised and assessed by people involved in the emergency services?

Shield

Jiffex wrote: »

Ok Fuinseog you really don't know what your talking about.

Hi Jiffex. Since this is your first post on boards, I feel I must direct you to read the Terms of Use for the site itself, and the Charter for this forum.

The general rule on boards is that you attack the post, and not the poster.

Familiarise yourself on how to rebut arguments presented by posters, and state why you disagree with the points the poster has raised. Don't make it personal.

Thanks, and welcome to boards.

Fuinseog

Jiffex wrote: »

Ok Fuinseog you really don't know what your talking about. From what you have said your obviously have no experience of Civil Defence or you are out to discredit the organisation for your own benefit.

How can you say Civil Defence does not have a high standard of training when alot of the training is supervised and assessed by people involved in the emergency services?

maybe you are from Roscrea and maybe I do not know anything, which is why I started this thread.
I am only going by what I have experienced myself in different parts of the country.
I am baffled as to why the AFS carries out fire fighting training (under the watchful eye of the fire service) when they will not be used to fight fires.

do the baot units carry out rescues?

can you get full paramedic training in the CD? if not why not?

Ziycon

Fuinseog wrote: »

maybe you are from Roscrea and maybe I do not know anything, which is why I started this thread.
I am only going by what I have experienced myself in different parts of the country.
I am baffled as to why the AFS carries out fire fighting training (under the watchful eye of the fire service) when they will not be used to fight fires.

do the baot units carry out rescues?

can you get full paramedic training in the CD? if not why not?

The AFS are a backup unit there to support the first line services if called upon in the case of a national emergency or if the first line services are stretched beyond capacity hence why they train. I would say more so its a good thing that they haven't been needed to be called to help fight fires as this is a testament to the first line services and how well they manage under the workload and cut funding.

The boat units are out in the Dublin area nearly every weekend of the year at public events in or around water and races etc.

All members of the CD have to have at minimum basic first aid and you can train up to paramedic depending on your interests and if places are available on the courses as they are limited each year.

As stated above there is no need to tarnish the whole organisation with the same brush based on a one time indecent or experience.

47

Ziycon wrote: »

The AFS are a backup unit there to support the first line services if called upon in the case of a national emergency or if the first line services are stretched beyond capacity hence why they train. I would say more so its a good thing that they haven't been needed to be called to help fight fires as this is a testament to the first line services and how well they manage under the workload and cut funding.

The boat units are out in the Dublin area nearly every weekend of the year at public events in or around water and races etc.

All members of the CD have to have at minimum basic first aid and you can train up to paramedic depending on your interests and if places are available on the courses as they are limited each year.

As stated above there is no need to tarnish the whole organisation with the same brush based on a one time indecent or experience.

Paramedic?

I think you mean EMT

touge_drift

yeah id say he means emt because the cd are not phecc approved to teach paramedic, no vol org is.

do the cd do b.a training for fire fighting? what type do they specialise in?

Jiffex

Firstly let me apologise to Fuinseog for making a personal remark in my last post.

Yes 47 you are correct no voluntary organisation can teach paramedic as it takes up to two years full time to qualify which would just not be practical. Civil Defence teach up to EMT level like most of the other voluntary agencies.

With regard to AFS they do not just train to put out fires. Civil Defence assisted the full time services in the response to the recent flooding in various parts of the country which involved using the AFS training and equipment. AFS also provided fire cover at various events held around the country.

The boats are used in most counties on a continuous basis in most counties to cover raft races, swims etc.

As far as I know the AFS instructors course only gives memebrs and introduction to BA but members are not qualified in BA use.

maglite

Its going to be the same everywhere, there will always be management that could be better.

With regard to training. What you are really seeing is a lack of use and experience. Thats going to happen in a vol setting. MR people will be in the hills getting alot of practice at getting lost in their spare time, in addition to the MR training sessions. You can show someone how to read a map in a couple of hours, practice is needed to be good at it.

Also, I can see the benefit of having a large number of semi organised people turn up to a search to just cover ground.

Besides the CD are a wide group, its not fair to get their EMT on n ambulance to be proficient in Navigation, Boat skills and FF. Everyone cant be good at everything, try asking a Red Cross person to cut open a car, MR to crew a boat, or the Navy to crew an ambulance. See what I mean.


They are a reserve, they don't have to be the best just good enough. But people do have to recognize that 1 person can taint a group. I'm guilty of it and I'm sure alot of posters are too.

Fuinseog

by the way, who is in charge of CD? Is it Department of Defence or the local council.

I gather CD was formerly more militaristic, with many CDOs being former military men, ut this is no longer the case.

civdef

www.civildefence.ie is a good place to start for any queries that you haven't already made your mind up on.

Fuinseog

civdef wrote: »

www.civildefence.ie is a good place to start for any queries that you haven't already made your mind up on.

I know the website, but I prefer to talk to the rank and file. I get a better picture that way as the powers that be are often out of touch.

Ziycon

47 wrote: »

Paramedic?

I think you mean EMT

Apologies, I meant EMT, read a different thread before replying here!