Speaking a Different Language at work

Raz0rblade1

My partner got a disciplinary notice from work, as did 2 other's i know of recently for speaking polish in the workplace. She works in the hotel industry. She works in the Food n drinks area of the hotel, all the staff do there upmost to speak english in front of guests which the hotel requires but doesnt state in anyon's contract to do. She got her's for speaking in the back kitchen, away from customers, the 2nd person is a chef and was in the downstairs prep kitchen and the 3rd was in the staff smoking area.

Personally i think this would be classed as indirect discrimination by the hotel and that they are wrong to issue written warning's and start disciplinary procedures with them. Hoping someone here can point me in the right direction for advice or if this is legal

Clauric

I would think that you could make a case for discrimination under the Equal Status Act, under the ground of race. However, this would be very difficult.

I think the best solution to this would be to approach the HR dept of the hotel, and ask for clear guidelines for where staff may speak to other members of staff in their own language, and where you are required to speak English.

seamus

A discrimination one would be tough to be prove - you would have to show that a national of another country doesn't get reprimanded for speaking his native tongue, or that a non-Polish person speaking Polish doesn't get reprimanded.

The best thing is as Clauric said - the HR department should issue clear guidelines on when and where it is appropriate to speak another language. I can understand the reasoning behind it - aside from speaking to customers, speaking a foreign language around other staff can create tension and paranoia and is often used as a form of bullying, so they obviously want to just avoid it altogether and insist that anyone on the clock speaks English.

jenny jinks

If it is not in the contracts or the rules then it is unfair. If the employer decides to try and use the alleged infraction in future to ground a dismissal the EAT would find an unfair procedure was used and compensate accordingly. Another thing to note, how does anyone know it was Polish which was spoken? My boos a solicitor was at a hearing one day. he asked the boss if he was sure Russian had been spoken. The boss said he was sure. My boss then asked him a question in Irish. The boss did not understand. The boss asked was it Russian he had heard. He said it was. The chairman of the tribunal who was a fluent Irish speaker asked the boss another question in Irish. The boss still did not understand. The result was a big award against the boss.

Raz0rblade1

thanks for the replies. I can see the hotel's point of view regarding this; but as its not in anyone's contract nor has anyone signed anything to state this i think they are wrong to issue disciplinaries on the matter. I used to work for the same hotel and have great respect for the management there.

I suppose what im really after is for the hotel to issue new contracts stating they want staff to speak only english (if it is covered by law).

I spoke to a manager there who doesn't like the idea of disciplinaries for such a matter, he put it well by saying "imagine working in France or Turkey and not being aloud to speak english, would this hamper how you do your job? speaking a 2nd language"

Im sure there is something in the Equality's act or one of those as there has been quite a few cases over the last 4 yrs regarding the same; each time it went to court or tribunal the company lost.

Raz0rblade1

seamus wrote: »

so they obviously want to just avoid it altogether and insist that anyone on the clock speaks English.

can a company actually do this without infringing on a person's rights?

Unfortunetly im not a fluent irish speaker but if one told me that irish was not allowed in the workplace i would be offended.
I understand there point of view, on the floor or behind the bar etc english should be spoken, but these incidents happened in area's where customers can't go.

Diversity in the workplace has made such issues much harder.

Jim2007

Raz0rblade1 wrote: »

My partner got a disciplinary notice from work, as did 2 other's i know of recently for speaking polish in the workplace. She works in the hotel industry. She works in the Food n drinks area of the hotel, all the staff do there upmost to speak english in front of guests which the hotel requires but doesnt state in anyon's contract to do. She got her's for speaking in the back kitchen, away from customers, the 2nd person is a chef and was in the downstairs prep kitchen and the 3rd was in the staff smoking area.

Personally i think this would be classed as indirect discrimination by the hotel and that they are wrong to issue written warning's and start disciplinary procedures with them. Hoping someone here can point me in the right direction for advice or if this is legal

Aside from Irish law, preventing an EU citizen from using an EU language in the work place opens up all kinds of issue concerning their rights to work and move freely within the EU! You can require people to know English in order to interface with customers, but once you go beyond that you are on very thin ice.

And I'm wondering how foreign customers would react upon hearing that the hotel has such clearly anti foreigner policies....

Good luck with that,

Jim.

Corruptedmorals

I work in retail, it's a given that staff can't speak Polish/whatever on the shopfloor/stockroom/on the clock. Locker room and canteen are fine obviously. But it's not in the handbook officially. I'd question what the hotel's policy is too but they CAN just say it's gross misconduct if they want so long as they don't discriminate obviously. Employers see it as deterring and/or intimidating customers and staff and creating barriers between Polish and Irish staff.

tenchi-fan

I don't see any problem with this.
Communication between staff, management and customers is pretty important.
When in rome, speak Italian

looksee

I would think that if you were in France you would be expected to speak French while on duty.

In Ireland Irish is a different matter because it is one of the official languages, so someone speaking it on duty might be talking to himself, but it would have to be permitted, I think.

Interesting point there, other than in Irish speaking areas, if you had interviewed for the job in English then insisted on speaking Irish, how would they deal with it?

Mrs OBumble

Jim2007 wrote: »

Aside from Irish law, preventing an EU citizen from using an EU language in the work place opens up all kinds of issue concerning their rights to work and move freely within the EU! You can require people to know English in order to interface with customers, but once you go beyond that you are on very thin ice.

And I'm wondering how foreign customers would react upon hearing that the hotel has such clearly anti foreigner policies....

The foreigners would probably be pleased that the foreign staff were being employed.

Seems to me perfectly reasonable that only the country's official languages should be used during work time.

I'd go even further and say on work premises.

To put this in context, I used to work with a few South Africans. Two of the guys, very macho at that, sometimes chatted in Africaans (spelling!). This didn't worry me, until one of my staff who knew some Dutch (even though he didn't look/seem Dutch) told me about some of the words being used. He didn't follow the full context of the conversation, but the vocab was bad enough. A very pleasant comment from me about the linguistic skills of my team members soon returned all the conversation to English.

wmpdd3

It's not in out handbook either but it is covered in induction, English only on shop floor / anywhere there's customers, own language in the canteen.

I have personally dealt with a good few (<35 yrs Irish women!) customer complaints for staff being overheard speaking another language.

AvaKinder

To be honest I can totally understand a company not wanting staff to speak in their native language even in areas that customers can't access. In our locker rooms/bathroom our foreign staff often speak in their own language to each other and when you're the only person there who doesn't know the language it can feel very intimidating and exclusionary.

KamiKazi

Speaking a language other than English (or Irish, if appropriate) is plain ignorant to the rest of the workers that don't speak whatever language it may be.

It's a really tricky issue because on one hand it can be rude to speak another language at work, but on the other, it's not really anyone's business what you speak when away from customers once you're not doing it to bully others.

It's really, really difficult to speak another language to people from your own country. I'm fluent in French, but when I worked there, it took so much effort not to speak to my Irish friend in English. It annoyed me when people commented because we never used English at the dinner table, on the job or anything, only where people shouldn't have been listening anyway. Sounds like this is the case for your GF.

Our man in Havana

AvaKinder wrote: »

To be honest I can totally understand a company not wanting staff to speak in their native language even in areas that customers can't access. In our locker rooms/bathroom our foreign staff often speak in their own language to each other and when you're the only person there who doesn't know the language it can feel very intimidating and exclusionary.

KamiKazi wrote: »

Speaking a language other than English (or Irish, if appropriate) is plain ignorant to the rest of the workers that don't speak whatever language it may be.

It is can be a form of bullying. People could be saying anything and everything about someone in their own language.

seamus

Haddockman wrote: »

It is can be a form of bullying. People could be saying anything and everything about someone in their own language.

It doesn't even necessarily have to be intentional. Nothing worse than sitting at a table with two other people speaking a language you don't understand, even if they're only talking crap. It creates paranoia and divisions within the staff.

forgetting

Speaking from the other perspective, I work in a very small office (<10 people) that has a development facility in Asia. We have over the past few years moved several staff members over from our Asian facility to Dublin office, which is our HQ.

Since a lot of our work is project based and generally staff are coming and going out of the office, a lot of the time on any given day, I am the only non-Asian person working in the office.

It is very frustrating to hear the constant buzz of conversation around you that you can't understand!! I know it is just general chit-chat and they are not speaking about me but I find it quite isolating and distracting, but don't really feel that I can complain as I understand it is their first language and it would be unfair on them (even though they have to speak English to all the Dublin based staff and clients).

looksee

forgetting wrote: »

Speaking from the other perspective, I work in a very small office (<10 people) that has a development facility in Asia. We have over the past few years moved several staff members over from our Asian facility to Dublin office, which is our HQ.

Since a lot of our work is project based and generally staff are coming and going out of the office, a lot of the time on any given day, I am the only non-Asian person working in the office.

It is very frustrating to hear the constant buzz of conversation around you that you can't understand!! I know it is just general chit-chat and they are not speaking about me but I find it quite isolating and distracting, but don't really feel that I can complain as I understand it is their first language and it would be unfair on them (even though they have to speak English to all the Dublin based staff and clients).

That sounds like a situation where you need a staff-bonding meeting, not to give out to people for speaking different languages, but to remind them that there are people present who do not speak the language. It is always discourteous to talk a language someone present does not understand, since they are in Ireland it would be common courtesy to speak English (and good practise for them, though presumably they are fluent) when someone English speaking is present.

Of course it works both ways - if you were Irish working in, say, Spain, with a bunch of other Irish people, would you always remember to speak Spanish between yourselves?

sealgaire

now that you mention it, I know a lad who works in dunnes who is a native Irish speaker. He was told not to speak Irish but the polish are allowed to speak Polish!

Now there is something wrong there.

Raz0rblade1 wrote: »

can a company actually do this without infringing on a person's rights?

Unfortunetly im not a fluent irish speaker but if one told me that irish was not allowed in the workplace i would be offended.
I understand there point of view, on the floor or behind the bar etc english should be spoken, but these incidents happened in area's where customers can't go.

Diversity in the workplace has made such issues much harder.

tenchi-fan

sealgaire wrote: »

now that you mention it, I know a lad who works in dunnes who is a native Irish speaker. He was told not to speak Irish but the polish are allowed to speak Polish!

Now there is something wrong there.

:rolleyes:

I know a girl who had an Irish friend called bree-a-naw-in (which I assume was Brian).

When she was on the phone to him she's speak Irish, LOUD and proud and really sloooow-ly and laugh at the end of the end of every sentence even though nothing could be that funny.

The smug sense of self-satisfaction some people get from speaking Irish can leave others nauseous. Perhaps that's why your friend was told to ná bi ag caint as gaeilge.

Jim2007

A new idea:

Given that there are so many Polish people around and in all likelihood there will be for the foreseeable future, why not take the opportunity to learn Polish?

Certainly if I was in a leadership position in Ireland I would make it my business to have a basic understanding of the language!!

Where I work we actively seek diversity and as a result at any given moment there will be 5 or 6 languages being spoken in the office, although we all understand one of the two official languages - German or English!

In 25 years I have never found language in itself to a limitation in building a good team spirit. I have on the other hand found many native English speakers being left on the fringes because they are unwilling to adapt to the situation.

Good luck with that,

Jim.

Our man in Havana

Bully for you.

bbam

Zechariah Shapely Bather wrote: »

it's not really anyone's business what you speak when away from customers once you're not doing it to bully others.

I think you'll find that if you're on the premises and on the clock then it is their business...
It makes lots of people uncomfortable and I've heard of complaints from employees where comrades were talking in their native tounge as it's unknown what's being said..

The company/hotel or whatever need to come out and make the matter clear BEFORE anyone is disciplined...
If it's not in a written policy, there have no complaints from staff/customers and it hasn't been talked about before, then the handing out of disciplinaries is on a weak footing.

mikemac

sealgaire wrote: »

now that you mention it, I know a lad who works in dunnes who is a native Irish speaker. He was told not to speak Irish but the polish are allowed to speak Polish!

Now there is something wrong there.

Now there is a court case waiting to happen.

Jim2007 wrote: »

A new idea:

Given that there are so many Polish people around and in all likelihood there will be for the foreseeable future, why not take the opportunity to learn Polish?

Certainly if I was in a leadership position in Ireland I would make it my business to have a basic understanding of the language!!

Some but not all Bank of Ireland branches had this.
At customer service, staff would realy make an effort to speak Polish and if they couldn't manage it they get someone on the phone to help out.
A bit of initiative from BOI there. Sadly, the lower level staff are getting blamed for the actions of their executives by many people

bbam

bbam wrote: »

I think you'll find that if you're on the premises and on the clock then it is their business...
It makes lots of people uncomfortable and I've heard of complaints from employees where comrades were talking in their native tounge as it's unknown what's being said..

The company/hotel or whatever need to come out and make the matter clear BEFORE anyone is disciplined...
If it's not in a written policy, there have no complaints from staff/customers and it hasn't been talked about before, then the handing out of disciplinaries is on a weak footing.

It shouldn't be their business what I speak on my lunch break (unpaid). Sometimes my family used to call me on my lunch break, was I supposed to not answer the phone in case someone passed by and overheard me speaking English in the break room? A bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss. Two employees speaking their language while a third was sitting there not understanding, that's rude. Two maids talking while cleaning a hotel room, who don't expect anyone to hear them? Where's the problem there?

How Strange

I'd imagine that an employer is within its rights to stipulate that say English is the language to be spoken while at work so all communication should be via this language irrrespective of the employees different native languages.

If employees want to converse in their native language then fine as long as it's not in the workplace.

However, an employer can't reasonably issue a formal warning for doing something if it hasn't clearly communicated a policy to all staff. That's just bad management. If I were in these employees position I would approach HR and explain that they weren't aware of any rule on languages in the workplace so the discipling was unfair and they would appreciate some formal guidance from the employer so they are aware of the rules and policies.

Kid Curry

If people want to speak Polish in the work place go work in Poland. How would Polish employees feel if their Irish colleagues went around speaking Irish?

Employers who read this thread must be alarmed at the talk of discrimination and infringement on rights when they are clearly just trying to implement standard procedure, especially in a hotel and tourism industry!!!

Jim2007 wrote: »

A new idea:

Given that there are so many Polish people around and in all likelihood there will be for the foreseeable future, why not take the opportunity to learn Polish?

Certainly if I was in a leadership position in Ireland I would make it my business to have a basic understanding of the language!!

Here is another idea, given that there are so many Polish people around and in all likelihood for the foreseeable future, why don’t they take to opportunity to learn English and that way they can converse with each other as much as they want.

Raz0rblade1 wrote: »

I spoke to a manager there who doesn't like the idea of disciplinaries for such a matter, he put it well by saying "imagine working in France or Turkey and not being aloud to speak english, would this hamper how you do your job? speaking a 2nd language"

If you were working in France or Turkey, you would have to speak the language in order to get a job. Do you seriously suggest that someone should get a job in a country in which they can’t speak the language and then get offended because you’re asked to speak the language? If you can’t speak the language that is required for the job then you’re not qualified for the job.

Seriously, is it really that unreasonable for an employer to assume that their staff speaks English, in an English speaking country without being hauled through the Employment Appeals Tribunal, labour court and commercial court?

Kid Curry

Kid Curry wrote: »

If you were working in France or Turkey, you would have to speak the language in order to get a job. Do you seriously suggest that someone should get a job in a country in which they can’t speak the language and then get offended because you’re asked to speak the language? If you can’t speak the language that is required for the job then you’re not qualified for the job.

Seriously, is it really that unreasonable for an employer to assume that their staff speaks English, in an English speaking country without being hauled through the Employment Appeals Tribunal, labour court and commercial court?

You're missing the point. It's not about employees being unable to speak the language. It's about employees preferring to speak to each other in their native language, away from customers and other employees. When I lived in France, I had to do my job in French. No problem at all. But when it was just me and my Irish mate eating lunch on a bench outside, or walking from building to building chatting, I spoke English. Sounds like this is a similar case. What's so wrong with it? I don't think it's rude or inappropriate.

Saying that, I do understand that it's difficult to take this stuff on a case by case basis. It is easy for speaking another language to be misconstrued as bullying (or it could be actual bullying). Seems like the employer has just decided not to allow it at all, to be on the safe side.

Kid Curry

I understand the point completely. However, I wasn't the one who raised the initial point.

Micilin Muc

I'm an Irish teacher and when I'm in the staffroom, I speak Irish to my Irish-teaching colleagues. If there's someone in the group who doesn't speak Irish (ie some other teachers), we speak in English. It's only manners.

irelandrover

Were the 3 disciplined all speaking to each other in Polish? Since they were all in different areas then they must have been talking quite loudly and across other employees. Which if that is the case then I can understand why it would create tensions.

ted1

i've worked in a few companies where the policy was that you could not speak a language that would exclude any one within ear shot of the conversation. This was to prevent bullying and stop people from feeling left out.

Milk & Honey

Micilin Muc wrote: »

I'm an Irish teacher and when I'm in the staffroom, I speak Irish to my Irish-teaching colleagues. If there's someone in the group who doesn't speak Irish (ie some other teachers), we speak in English. It's only manners.

Are not all teachers supposed to be able to speak Irish?

the_syco

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Are not all teachers supposed to be able to speak Irish?

Speaking Irish, and having a fluent conversation are two different things. Also, if the teachers were from differnt parts of the country (eg: Dublin and Cork), there'd be a lot of difference between the way things are said.

Micilin Muc

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Are not all teachers supposed to be able to speak Irish?

Only Primary School teachers.

Milk & Honey

What about this case (Anita Groener v Minister for Education) 1987

"3 It is apparent from the documents before the Court that, according to Section 23(1 ) and ( 2 ) of the Vocational Education Act 1930, the Minister' s approval is required concerning the numbers, qualifications, remuneration and appointment of all employees of each vocational education committee . Exercising his powers under that Act, the Minister adopted, inter alia, two administrative measures .

4 First, pursuant to Memorandum V7, which entered into force on 1 September 1974, the competent committee may not appoint a person to a permanent full-time post in certain areas of teaching, including in particular art, unless that person holds the Ceard-Teastas Gaeilge ( certificate of proficiency in the Irish language ) or has an equivalent qualification recognized by the Minister . In that memorandum, the Minister also reserved the right to exempt candidates from countries other than Ireland from the obligation to know Irish, provided that there were no other fully qualified candidates for the post ."

viconia

This scenario did not happen to me but someone in my family who doesn't have an account.

She (Let's call her Joanna) works as an accounts person for a shop. So, she is rarely on the floor of the shop working on the floor.

Recently, someone from her native country (who she knows) got employment with the shop. In the canteen (when no one is around) they speak their own language to each other. However, when people are around, they speak english as both of them consider it rude and are very considerate of people around them.

Yesterday, an assistant manager requested that she not speak her native language with this other employee. Joanna is really conscious about this and she said that she cannot recall soemone being in the room/coffee area and apologised if she offended anyone. The assistant manager advised her that the person who "overheard her", told someone else who in turn told the assistant manager. As a Result, Joanna feels like this is her fault and has asked around and apologised to anyone she offended. She asked her friend if they remember noticing anyone around the room when they spoke and her friend said he cannot recall that either.

THis wasn't done infront of customers, but in their coffee room/canteen area (which is quite small).

Is this allowed? Can you be told what you can and cannot do? They don't discuss work and if other people are there, they speak in english. I think this is a violation of.. well, something but I'm not sure what. However, it just sounds wrong to tell someone they can't speak their native language on their unpaid lunch hour when no one is around??

daithi09

I'm sure if it's an unpaid lunch hour they can leave the premises and speak whatever they want...

viconia

Yeah, okay, fair enough. But what I mean is, they don't speak their own language when people are arond but someone overheard them.

I'm in the process of getting their HR booklet and their terms regarding this to see if it's noted.

daithi09 wrote: »

I'm sure if it's an unpaid lunch hour they can leave the premises and speak whatever they want...

Mrs OBumble

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Are not all teachers supposed to be able to speak Irish?

Foreign trained ones are allowed to work for a few years before they have to prove their competency in the language.

And there are other people in a school (SNA, secretary, janitor, parent-helper, etc) who aren't required to speak it.

Mrs OBumble

viconia wrote: »

Yeah, okay, fair enough. But what I mean is, they don't speak their own language when people are arond but someone overheard them.

Well either someone was hiding in a cupboard one day, or perhaps they did just make a mistake and speak whatever-ish when someone else was around.

(Or maybe someone's just trying to cause trouble, guessing that they do speak it, and complaining on the off-chance. If that's the case, I'd say she's got a lot more trouble heading her way.)

Either way, an employer can make all sorts of reasonable requests inside and outside work time, eg go in via the staff door, don't wear your uniform in the street, speak in the country's official language when you're on the premises.

imitation

I have some danish speaking friends who always make a point of speaking English if a non dane is present, to them its good manners. I'm not hugely pushed about it myself, but I can see why they think that, because your basically excluded from the conversation. Its all about context though, I dont there's any problem with a table of all polish people speaking polish in the canteen, but if they dont mix with other people then cliques will form very quickly.

And the company was 100% wrong to issue written warnings for something that is not specified anywhere. Not to mention the fact it would probably only be worth a written warning if it was a constant repeat offence in a blatent way as opposed to a first "offence".

Jim2007

Milk & Honey wrote: »

What about this case (Anita Groener v Minister for Education) 1987

"3 It is apparent from the documents before the Court that, according to Section 23(1 ) and ( 2 ) of the Vocational Education Act 1930, the Minister' s approval is required concerning the numbers, qualifications, remuneration and appointment of all employees of each vocational education committee . Exercising his powers under that Act, the Minister adopted, inter alia, two administrative measures .

4 First, pursuant to Memorandum V7, which entered into force on 1 September 1974, the competent committee may not appoint a person to a permanent full-time post in certain areas of teaching, including in particular art, unless that person holds the Ceard-Teastas Gaeilge ( certificate of proficiency in the Irish language ) or has an equivalent qualification recognized by the Minister . In that memorandum, the Minister also reserved the right to exempt candidates from countries other than Ireland from the obligation to know Irish, provided that there were no other fully qualified candidates for the post ."

Yes and if you took the time to read the entire judgement plus the related related memos and clarification documents issued afterwards, you would also know that it is limited to a situation where the objective was to encourage the use of the Irish language - a minority language which is in danger of dying out, it was on that basis alone that it was accepted and of course it only applies to teachers....

In order to have even the remotest chance in getting something like this to fly, I would expect that the employer would have show in some way that he was trying to promote the use of Irish at work!

Jim.

Captain Havoc

I never had an issue with my staff speaking their native language. Most of the time they're talking rubbish anyway just the same as we do. I would ask anyone who critises the foreigners for using their native language to take a step back and put themselves in their shoes, if you were abroad and working with other native English speakers, what would you actually do? I can assure you the answer isn't speak that countries language all the time you're in work. If companies have this problem, don't hire foreigners, simple and that's the problem irradicated. If you hire foreigners, this will be an issue which I feel you just have to accept. I personally spoke English but I also learned both French and German while living in Switzerland and France.

LegacyUser

Hi, I am Lithuanian and I am experiencing a language problem in work too. I was reading all your comments with some I agree with some I do not. Just would like to explain why foreign people chose to speak in there native language, because we are far from home and we better understand each other when we speak in our language, also some our expression are different and not translatable in English. I speak fluently English,Russian and Lithuanian so I could say that English very poor language,to say in my own language one English word could mean 3-6 Lithuanians word, sometimes I am not enough of words them i want to express my self in English, also English sentences you start from one end to another,in our language if we translate word by word that sentence will loose meaning, so when we speak we have to put your expression in opposite direction.Theres a lot of grammar reasons. And I do not think what we speak about our work mates on the brakes, just it would be very rude. Also most of foreign people speak about there family's,home and other problems.
My boss asked me do I speak English language at home with my child and my husband, I said no....she was shocked why not?...why should I forget my native language just because I left my Country? so for that reason we are very happy to speak our language just because we have it and we can use it. Also in our country's in work places always was multicultural staff people from Poland, Russia,Latvia and other,so we never had a problem with it if they spoke in there native language.All Eastern European country's has the borders with other country's, so we learning more then one language. Just because people do want not to learn other languages ,You can expect all world speak just in English. Same boss what I was talking before , she went to Holland to find new supplies , in warehouse the shop assistant did not speak English , so she made big deal how she could not communicate with her, but my boss was in Holland so she should learn couple words to get her around. So I do understand what some people get angry and think we are talking about them in our native language, but it is there fault, not knowing more languages it not our fault.