service charge of 12.5% will be added to parties of six or more

Smoggy

"service charge of 12.5% will be added to parties of six or more"

I often see on the bottom of menus. But where does the justification come from ? They cant be trying to discourage groups ? Do large groups tend not to tip ? What happens if the service is bad (as its not a tip at this point) ?

ntlbell

Smoggy wrote: »

"service charge of 12.5% will be added to parties of six or more"

I often see on the bottom of menus. But where does the justification come from ? They cant be trying to discourage groups ? Do large groups tend not to tip ? What happens if the service is bad (as its not a tip at this point) ?

If it's bad, ask for it to be removed?

the beer revolu

This annoys me too.

I think the reasoning is that a big party will tend to tip less per head.
eg a party of 10 spending say €300 might think that €20 is more than enough tip to leave (6.6%) whereas a couple spending €60 would probably leave more then €4.

You can always refuse to pay service charge, although people will rarely do this.

Personally, if there is service added, I will not leave any tip.
And I have once asked for the service charge (or was it 'discretionary tip' added to the bill?) to be removed after returning 2 meals and it being dealt with very badly, then being short changed!

I believe tips should be earned and not be automatic.

Jim_Bob_2010

What is with all this tipping crap? I thought I lived in Ireland where the minimun wage was one of the highest in the world?

the beer revolu

Jim_Bob_2010 wrote: »

What is with all this tipping crap? I thought I lived in Ireland where the minimun wage was one of the highest in the world?

Sometimes I like to tip, but I hate to feel obliged to tip!!

And why is it deemed necessary in one particular service industry and not others??

ntlbell

the beer revolu wrote: »

Sometimes I like to tip, but I hate to feel obliged to tip!!

And why is it deemed necessary in one particular service industry and not others??

you tell em mr pink

El_Drago

ntlbell wrote: »

you tell em mr pink

For anyone who hasn't seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLV4OxzDKwI

Classic!

Mellor

I think its because a party of 6 is more than twice as much hastle for the server than two parties of 3 each. Agree or not, it's ok to question it if thre was a paticularly bad service

Smoggy

Im not sure how a party of 6 is harder to serve. You are carrying the same amount of food and drink to the same location. That has to be easier than taking the food to different tables.

I would be fine in asking for the service to be removed if it was bad, but for me thats not the real issue. The issue is that there seems to be real justification for adding this madatory service.

I think the the beer revolu is probably correct, that a larger group is more likely to leave a smaller tip. But as tipping is optional, automatically adding it to the bill is wrong.

Mellor

Smoggy wrote: »

Im not sure how a party of 6 is harder to serve. You are carrying the same amount of food and drink to the same location. That has to be easier than taking the food to different tables.

It's not the carrying and the location thats an issue, its the timing of everything.
Making sure people get starters together, main courses as close as possible, it basically requires a better job, and better co-ordination between kitchen and server, obviously this doesn't always happen and that's a reason to ask to have it removed
watch hells kitchen to get an idea of what i mean

hardCopy

Large tables also take longer to serve per had than several small tables because you can't serve up until all the meals are ready

vandriver

If you serve 6 tables of 2 in a shift,you will make tips on the majority of the tables.If you are put on a 12 table which can take up most of your evening,would you want to take the chance of being tipped nothing?I work in a restaurant and this happened with large tables a few times before we brought in the service charge rule.

longhalloween

Mellor wrote: »

I think its because a party of 6 is more than twice as much hastle for the server than two parties of 3 each. Agree or not, it's ok to question it if thre was a paticularly bad service

Its less hassle for the server since they only have to explain the specials, menu ect. once, and can take orders for food and drink together and the check is usually together too.

Its also easier to reset the table once the party leaves. Ive also seen two servers put on a big table, so i think its just to guarantee they get a decent tip.

Eg. five tables of two are much more difficult than one table of ten.

Smoggy

vandriver wrote: »

If you serve 6 tables of 2 in a shift,you will make tips on the majority of the tables.If you are put on a 12 table which can take up most of your evening,would you want to take the chance of being tipped nothing?I work in a restaurant and this happened with large tables a few times before we brought in the service charge rule.

But thats the whole point of a tip, its optional at the disgression of the customer. This isnt a mandatory thing. You shouldn't be expecting a tip. Its a bonus you could receive for good service.

Also if you are worried about unfair tip distribution, pool the tips, don't take it out on the customer.

Davidth88

Am I the only person who HATES service charges WITH A PASSION.

After all , you are by and large paying ' top dollar ' for the food , it's not like you are bringing food in from a supermarket

It's like Ryanair saying the seat to xxx is y euro BUT you HAVE to pay x to check in online ( even though you have to do this ) to me this is in effect part of the fare

So really the menu prices should reflect the full cost of the meal

( apologies for dragging in Ryanair but I was looking for an analogy )

Tips should be earned NOT expected , I hate in the States where you HAVE to tip because the server is basically not paid.

Wasn't there a loop hole in the min wage rule here that tips could be included ??

Jim_Bob_2010

errr pretty much the same post as yesterday but reading this thread again I fell like posting it again, why the féck are people giving/expecting a tip? Do people actually know the minimum wage here V North America, or the price disparity of food for that matter? Waiters shouldn't be tipped even for good service, ffs the restaurants are really making a fool out of people.

TrustedApple

ok this is comeing from someone who works tables in a restaurant and people do not care that you do not get min wage in a restaurant

ok a think that 12.5% is great to have or maybe 8% but my boss well not put it on the menu because where cheap as it is. but every other restaurant in the town has 10 or sometimes 15% s charge on there menu

once we had a table of 12 in and my boss said look after them very well because they as whys come in

the left me 2 euros as a tip after speding 400 euros that is a joke because you have to lok after big tables a lot more then your 2s or 3s

but then you get a nice person you left me 80 euros after speding 560 euros for 16 people

look i must be one of very few irash people in the job because i make good tips but when there is someone from east euro on the for the
tips go down 70% maybe i get more because i am 18

so yes service charges are good if the service is good

we set 45 in my boss place and when your on your own its hard work when its full

ps sorry for the bold it wil not go off

Degag

samapple789 wrote: »

ok this is comeing from someone who works tables in a restaurant and people do not care that you do not get min wage in a restaurant

ok a think that 12.5% is great to have or maybe 8% but my boss well not put it on the menu because where cheap as it is. but every other restaurant in the town has 10 or sometimes 15% s charge on there menu

once we had a table of 12 in and my boss said look after them very well because they as whys come in

the left me 2 euros as a tip after speding 400 euros that is a joke because you have to lok after big tables a lot more then your 2s or 3s

but then you get a nice person you left me 80 euros after speding 560 euros for 16 people

look i must be one of very few irash people in the job because i make good tips but when there is someone from east euro on the for the
tips go down 70% maybe i get more because i am 18

so yes service charges are good if the service is good

we set 45 in my boss place and when your on your own its hard work when its full

ps sorry for the bold it wil not go off

No offence or anything but your spelling and punctuation is pretty terrible for an Irish Person.

Anyhow, i also work in the trade and i don't expect tips. We don't add any charges to bills either. If i do a good job and get a tip i'm happy but if someone walks out without doing so i wouldn't mind. I'm only doing my job and don't expect extra money for doing so.

samapple789

samapple789 wrote: »

you do not get min wage in a restaurant

Surely, you do?

Degag

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely, you do?

Yeah you do, anyone over 18 is entitled to minimum wage no matter what they do.

Hunchback

service charges no matter where you eat are always, without exception at the discretion of the customer. you're not happy, nuff said, don't leave it. but people who as a rule refuse to tip regardless of how good the service is? tighter than a camels ass in a sandstorm. just pure scabbiness. and i hate when i'm eating out with someone and they embarrass me when it comes to the bill, scoffing at the service charge and spending twenty minutes analyzing the bill with calculators... FFS, if you're that bloody miserable, do us all a favour and stay indoors. jesus.

Iolar Iontach

CKonetheonlyone wrote: »

but people who as a rule refuse to tip regardless of how good the service is?

Shouldn't excellent service be expected? It shouldn't be provided in the hope of receiving a tip, it's the person's job. Do you tip the guy in the chipper or McDonald's or the person who serves your popcorn in the cinema? Tipping is not part of the culture here, it's a recent, unwarranted introduction. It's crass.

The Hill Billy

Degag wrote: »

No offence or anything but your spelling and punctuation is pretty terrible for an Irish Person.

If you have a problem with a post use the Report Post function.
Comments such as this are off-topic & unhelpful.

HB

CiaranC

Ive worked in Restaurants all over while travelling. I always add a mandatory tip for Irish people to the bill because they are so mean, regardless of the size of the group. I make sure all my colleages do the same.

Bigcheeze

CiaranC wrote: »

Ive worked in Restaurants all over while travelling. I always add a mandatory tip for Irish people to the bill because they are so mean, regardless of the size of the group. I make sure all my colleages do the same.

So you defraud some of your customers based on their nationality. Interesting.

mikemac

I've done this job. And never quite understood the service charge as in any other business you'd get discounts for large orders.

It's not extra work or more difficult
Realy, I'd prefer to serve one table of six then two tables of three.
If it's a big table of 16, we can get two servers to manage it.

Yes, the courses need to be managed at the same time so you better be working well with the kitchen but it shouldn't be an issue.

Management impose the service charge, nothing I hate more then customers giving out to the person on the minimum wage about the charges and prices.

And in many (most?) places the service charge is just taken by management and used to run the place. It's not set aside especially for tips or wages.

If you're not happy then don't pay it, well at least explain why to the manager.

Finally, if you want to leave a tip then cash on the table. If you put it on the credit card gratituty then lol, the server will never see it but the restaurant accountant will

CiaranC

Bigcheeze wrote: »

So you defraud some of your customers based on their nationality. Interesting.

No defrauding about it. It says on the receipt "for our overseas visitors we reserve the right to add a gratuity", and shows the added gratuity plain as day.

The Hill Billy

That is a disgrace.

Bigcheeze

CiaranC wrote: »

No defrauding about it. It says on the receipt "for our overseas visitors we reserve the right to add a gratuity", and shows the added gratuity plain as day.

Well you said Irish people, not that treating all foreigners that way is any better. Sounds like something you'd see on fawlty towers

Smoggy

so how and when do you add gratuity to the bill for foreigners ? Just when you feel like it ? when they look like none tippers ? I have never heard anything like it.

CiaranC

Smoggy wrote: »

so how and when do you add gratuity to the bill for foreigners ? Just when you feel like it ? when they look like none tippers ? I have never heard anything like it.

Tips are expected in North America, staff get paid lower than standard minimum wage and are taxed on their tips. Its the height of ignorance for Brits, Australians and to a lesser extent Irish people to go there and not tip. So they get auto-grat'ed.

This was pretty common I found.

The idea behind the auto-grat for large parties was to guarantee that the server that got stuck spending their entire evening looking after one large table didnt get stung for a nights tips. The auto-grat is usually about 18%

Its just a different culture. I must say I did get a kick out of auto-grating the sorts who you just knew NEVER tipped at home.

TrustedApple

just to get back to yous ask anyone who worls at this job do they get min wage you do not

if a person does not give you a tip there is something wrong with them

if i go out to eat i tip

i have dyslexia if you like to no

Smoggy

samapple789 wrote: »

just to get back to yous ask anyone who worls at this job do they get min wage you do not

if a person does not give you a tip there is something wrong with them

if i go out to eat i tip

i have dyslexia if you like to no

There are loads of people who work in the service industry that provide a service to me, many are on minimum wage that I dont tip. I guess neither do you.

super_furry

samapple789 wrote: »

just to get back to yous ask anyone who worls at this job do they get min wage you do not

You should report your employer for breaking the law. I shouldn't have to subsidise your wages because your boss doesn't want to pay the minimum wage.

The_Conductor

super_furry wrote: »

You should report your employer for breaking the law. I shouldn't have to subsidise your wages because your boss doesn't want to pay the minimum wage.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this.
We overpay significantly for almost everything in this country- without so much as a peep. We might leave and then bad mouth the place, and vow never to return- but it is not the job of a customer to bring the wage being paid to any of the employees up to the minimum wage level. Even the dishwashers in the kitchen are entitled to minimum wage. The idea of a tip is to recognise outstanding service rendered- it is not a normal payment, nor is it standard. TIP stands for- To Insure Promptness- and in the US it used to be the case that regular patrons of local restaurants would leave a small gratuity to receive enhanced service on their next visit. That the original intent of the 'tip' has changed into a core component of a salary there- is totally irrelevant in an Irish context- at least we have significant legal minimum wages that all employees are entitled to- the federal legal levels in the state are just over 1/8 what the Irish levels are at.........

FTGFOP

Then it would be 'TEPS' To Ensure Prompt Service. This is the same as the Port Out, Starboard Home explanation of 'posh' -a backronym i.e. not true.

rubadub

CiaranC wrote: »

Its the height of ignorance for Brits, Australians and to a lesser extent Irish people to go there and not tip. So they get auto-grat'ed.

Some people go to a modern industrialised superpower and might have incorrectly assumed that in this day & age workers do get paid minimum wage, rather than this strange haphazard backward method of paying peoples wages -which also leads to high levels of tax evasion. I have read ~40% of tips are undeclared in the US.

Laws in the states of Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require all employees to be paid at least minimum wage.

So if you are tipping in those states there there is no logical reason not to tip other services, checkout girls, guys in mcdonalds etc.

Ignorance is rife, just look at ignorant people using oxymorons like "automatic gratuity" to describe a mandatory service charge -its appalling what the schools are churning out these days.

Faith

My problem with tipping in Ireland is that it's inexplicably linked only to waitressing and barwork. I work in retail and earn minimum wage. People come to me, basically give me an order, and I get everything they've requested. I can spend anything from 5 minutes to half an hour exclusively with the one customer. And do I get tipped? No. I've been a waitress too and the service I provided then wasn't a patch on what I do now. So I don't think tipping makes sense when we're all earning minimum wage - either you tip everyone who provides a service, or no-one.

seamus

Services charges are optional. You have no obligation to pay a service charge at the end of the bill.

Restuarants expecting their customers to tip (like in North America) are a complete disgrace. You're basically asking your customers to pay for the food and then pay your staff as well, while you pocket the profits on the food.

A couple of times I've not tipped at all in the States and only left basic tips (< 10%) for adequate service, and I'm not ashamed nor am I a skinflint. I will reward a conscientious, attentive and friendly waiter/waitress, because they're doing the job above what's required of them. I will not reward someone who just writes down an order and comes back with the food, because that's the minimum they should be doing.

CiaranC

seamus wrote: »

nor am I a skinflint.

The bill is priced the way it is because of the way North American waitstaff and kitchenstaff get paid. I heard countless Brits and Australians comment on how cheap their bill was, then proceeding to leave out 20% of the expected payment, leaving the poor Canadian server who been breaking their necks to make sure the meal was a top experience bewildered and upset.

Its worse if they got stuck with one large table who didnt tip (it was foreigners 100% of the time, no Canadian would fail to leave a tip of less than 18%, they would be mortified in front of their party). This isnt "extra" money, its money they normally earn that they are losing when you dont tip. You can argue the semantics all you like, its a totally different situation to Europe. This guys were often trained experts in food and wine whose basic wage was about 1/4 of what youd earn in McDonalds here.

The server has to tip out the barstaff and kitchen from their tips, so you are taking money directly out of everyones pockets by not tipping them.

Ignorance is one thing, but believe me, "skinflint" is exactly how you are percieved if you dont tip there. Ive seen people pursued outside the restaurant by furious staff over this.

seamus

CiaranC wrote: »

Ignorance is one thing, but believe me, "skinflint" is exactly how you are percieved if you dont tip there. Ive seen people pursued outside the restaurant by furious staff over this.

Trust me, I'm not ignorant, I'm perfectly aware of how it works. I'm not going to tip someone for doing their job in the most basic manner possible. If someone breaks their neck, I'll reward them. But I refuse to become part of the ridiculous culture that ensures that employers can pay their staff little or nothing and expect their customers to do it for them.
If someone ends up having to pay out of their own pocket because they're not very good at their job, then that's their problem, not mine.

No, food is not that cheap in the U.S. If it was, I would be more amenable to tipping the balance.

Kimia

Seamus, I agree with your point if we are in Ireland. But in the US I have to agree with Ciaran. Do you not see that if you don't tip a waitress in the US, you are literally taking that service for free?

I'm not going to tip someone for doing their job in the most basic manner possible

And you should tip the basic amount which is afair aprpox 17%. If you don't pay this tip in the US/Canada you are making the waitress/waiter bring you your food and serve you for nothing. Why would they do that?

seamus

Kimia wrote: »

Seamus, I agree with your point if we are in Ireland. But in the US I have to agree with Ciaran. Do you not see that if you don't tip a waitress in the US, you are literally taking that service for free?

No, they are still getting paid by their employer to provide that service. The amount they get paid isn't really my concern; They don't have to work there for that amount of money.

If the restaurant didn't pay their staff, but made it possible for me to order and collect my food myself, then yes I would tip them for providing that service. As it stands, I don't have any option except to use the waiter, therefore that is a service the restaurant pays for, not me.

rubadub

Faith wrote: »

My problem with tipping in Ireland is that it's inexplicably linked only to waitressing and barwork.

I also think it strange to have a fixed %. If you serve 2 identical tables but one orders a €20 bottle of wine and another gets a €520 bottle then the waiter on the €520 table gets €90 more if tipping 18% -what is that all about? waiters in expensive restaurants will be being paid more in general.

CiaranC wrote: »

You can argue the semantics all you like, its a totally different situation to Europe.

Yes, its bizarre they have such a haphazard system/method of payment, if staff are infact getting furious and upset you would think they would ask the restaurant to stop this crazy policy. I have heard some restaurants in the states have anti-tipping policies, the price is just included from the start like most other services. I don't see the reason to separate it out, if it is mandatory why even list it as 18%, why not just increase all the prices to 18% to stop all the unnecessary calculation which just reduces clarity of prices -like what they tried to do with airlines. If you think it is a good idea to separate it out then why not do it more?
Dinner $5
chef hire +10%
Light & heat +3%
Waiter +18%
Food costs +30%
Cleaning lady +3%

An no-tipping policy means staff are not in competition too, which was a reason some gave to introduce it, they also know what they will have in their pocket at the end of the week. I would hate to be paid less in my job and be told to expect to earn more from the customers I deal with -at their discretion.

Kimia wrote: »

But in the US I have to agree with Ciaran. Do you not see that if you don't tip a waitress in the US, you are literally taking that service for free?

Not in all states as I already showed

Laws in the states of Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington require all employees to be paid at least minimum wage.

-so should service staff still be tipped in those states? and if so please explain how would you differentiate which service staff should get it, e.g. waiters, barmen, mcdonalds servers, dry cleaners, courier, dentist, doctor, checkout girl, sandwich maker.

Also they are being paid in the other states, if all customers are not paying enough they should really ask for an anti-tipping policy -but from what I hear some have a very good thing going and can earn an absolute fortune and evade tax too. I know lads in college who went over to work a single day in bars on st.patricks day, the tips alone paid for their flights.

It is ridiculous that a waiter would be paid €90 more to open a €520 bottle of wine.

CiaranC

seamus wrote: »

They don't have to work there for that amount of money.

Well thats kind of the point, they dont "work there for that amount of money", they work for tips. They get a nominal amount for showing up, then start to earn.

Reading this, Im pretty glad I applied an auto-grat to all Irish in the restaurants I worked in. Id have had some craic explaining to the kitchen and barstaff where their money was. Sure Paddy and his mates dont have to tip. Or telling my local barman I didnt have to tip either, Id have been ****ed out of the boozer on my ear.

rubadub

CiaranC wrote: »

Well thats kind of the point, they dont "work there for that amount of money", they work for tips.

He is saying they do not have to work there full stop. If people are getting furious and chasing customers out the door perhaps they might be suited to a different job where they know what they will be paid. Or if it is happening a lot ask the owner to introduce a no-tipping policy and just pay the proper wage.

It is their choice to work there, so they know the deal and take the risk. It would be like a busker taking a risk expecting payment from the public rather than being hired out by a pub for the night.

CiaranC wrote: »

Reading this, Im pretty glad I applied an auto-grat to all Irish in the restaurants I worked in.

Some of your comments seem very snide. Would you not be even more glad if there was no need for your oxymoronic "auto-grat" at all, that you just charged the correct price from the start and cut out all this unnecessary nonsense.

CiaranC wrote: »

Id have had some craic explaining to the kitchen and barstaff where their money was.

Would they not be happier to be just paid like any other people in other jobs? I think it would be quite strange trying to explain to people in my company that their wages were to be cut and that they would become dependent on tips from customers. There would be outrage and from your posts it seems to be quite a touchy subject -so why do they not just cop-on and ask the boss to stop this ridiculous tipping system.

CiaranC

rubadub wrote: »

Would they not be happier to be just paid like any other people in other jobs?

Ah so I should have just single-handedly reformed the entire industry across an entire continent, why didnt I think of that! Track down the investors and owners of each restaurant, and say "Here this business model youve been using for the past 100 years, its not working out for me". Get real will ya

Seriously people, dont be a douchebag, just tip.

Toto Wolfcastle

CiaranC wrote: »

Seriously people, dont be a douchebag, just tip.

The 'douchebags' are the ones who tip even when the service is rubbish. Tipping a taxi driver in New York is expected, right? So should I have tipped the taxi driver who didn't know which terminal was which when dropping me to the airport? Not a chance. Same goes for bad service in any restaurant or bar or anywhere else where tips are expected. I'm not paying the wages. That's the job of the employer.

CiaranC

janeybabe wrote: »

I'm not paying the wages. That's the job of the employer.

OMG, you ARE paying the wages. Thats how the system works over there. Just because you dont think its ideal, doesnt mean you get to opt out of it without people thinking you are a complete prick. Why is this so hard to understand?

If I bring my car to a mechanic and I get a bill for parts and labour, can I just leave the labour off it if I want? No I cant, thats not how it works.

Kimia

seamus wrote: »

No, they are still getting paid by their employer to provide that service. The amount they get paid isn't really my concern; They don't have to work there for that amount of money.

Seamus, they don't get paid at all. The only amount they get paid is the amount you decide to leave as payment for them bringing you your food. As I've stated, if you don't do this, you pay them (and the restaurant pays them) nothing.

I too don't understand why you are all finding this so hard to understand. There is NO minimum wage over there, my american buddies got paid something like 15 dollars a week being a waitress/waiter. If you don't tip, you don't get served. That's pretty much it. Why should they serve you for free?

Kimia

rubadub wrote: »

-so why do they not just cop-on and ask the boss to stop this ridiculous tipping system.

haha this is hilarious. Rubadub, they would just get fired and things would go on just as before. It's the way of things over there.