Disappointed by Leinster

TheTMO

The Leinster chief executive on Stan Wright's injury :

"It's a serious setback given how good he has been for us and it doesn't help that most of the good props around the place are already under contract. Certainly we'll have to go outside Ireland to find a replacement and we've already been in touch with the IRFU on that. We'll try and identify someone as soon as possible and take it from there."

What a joke, complete slap in the face to Mike Ross! With Van de Merwe, Healy, Ross, McGrath and McCormack we have 5 props, 3 of whom can cover both sides, really don't know why Leinster are so eager to sign another prop. Is a new signing really necessary? Ross is well able to cover prop and McGrath has already started a ML game and shown hes more than capable to be 4th choice cover despite his young age and if things got really bad Leinster have Ronan McCormack as well whose played dozens of ML games. Just seems completely over the top.

wixfjord

TheTMO wrote: »

The Leinster chief executive on Stan Wright's injury :

"It's a serious setback given how good he has been for us and it doesn't help that most of the good props around the place are already under contract. Certainly we'll have to go outside Ireland to find a replacement and we've already been in touch with the IRFU on that. We'll try and identify someone as soon as possible and take it from there."

What a joke, complete slap in the face to Mike Ross! With Van de Merwe, Healy, Ross, McGrath and McCormack we have 5 props, 3 of whom can cover both sides, really don't know why Leinster are so eager to sign another prop. Is a new signing really necessary? Ross is well able to cover prop and McGrath has already started a ML game and shown hes more than capable to be 4th choice cover despite his young age and if things got really bad Leinster have Ronan McCormack as well whose played dozens of ML games. Just seems completely over the top.

Jack Mcgrath this and that. Fact is, you wouldnt play either McCormack, McGrath, or Maguire in a H Cup game. You disregard the role experience has to play in propping.
Its essentially replacing one foreign prop with another. What happens if we have two prop injuries and your left with one of Ross, Healy and VDM and one of Mcgrath McCormack and Maguire, against Clermont for example?!

And when has McGrath shown hes more than capable to be 4th choice? You and Judgment should start a man love society, but at least his is based on achievements!

danthefan

McCormack should be disregarded from any serious discussion, he's not good enough and playing him simply because he's Irish would be ridiculous. It's a harsh thing to say and I have nothing against the guy but I would hope not to see him playing for Leinster again to be perfectly honest.

This leaves us with 4 props.

Healy is going to miss half the season on this poxy player resting scheme.

This oftentimes leaves us with 3 props.

McGrath has no senior caps for Leinster as far as I know, definitley less than 5 if he does have caps.
EDIT - checked, seems he's played 22 minutes for Leinster, 1 cap.

If it turns out he's not good enough or not ready for the professional game this leaves us with 2 viable props.

If VdM or Ross gets injured...


It's about having a squad, being able to cope with injuries, being able to rotate. Stop whining.

thomond2006

/Awaits the arrival of Peter Bracken.

Shelflife

Bracken has signed for Carcassonne this season, was keen to stay in Ireland but no interest from any of the provinces.

thomond2006

Shelflife wrote: »

Bracken has signed for Carcassonne this season, was keen to stay in Ireland but no interest from any of the provinces.

I see.

Maybe they could sign an Australian prop till Christmas. They don't have a domestic comp in Australia (after they got rid of the money hemorrhaging ARC) so the Aussies not involved internationally just play with AIL-like clubs (Randwick etc) right now I think? There might be an avenue there.

CatFromHue

if this were towards the end of the season there may be a case for keeping the squad as.

2 weeks before your first competitive game and knowing your without a prop for the season is just good management bringing in another prop.

were will they get one at this stage i havent a clue, it may turn out that we'll end up getting a player after the currie cup or the itm cup in new zealand ends.

PhatPiggins

Hello Ollie, this is Josef Schmidt, can you still fit into those size 22 shorts?

profitius

Typical Irish rugby solution. Munster are just as bad for doing it.

There should be a loan system in place between all the provinces. If a province loses 2 players of the same position the other province loans them out one of there fringe players.

As far as I'm concerned Ireland is more important than the provinces so they should be doing more to help the national team.

Beanmachine

Van der linde on a 3 month contract was suggested today in the Star,Wouldnt read too much into it but his point was he knows the set up and knows the players so not much settling in would be needed. I don't believe it will happen but one thing is for sure is we need another prop badly.

Risteard

profitius wrote: »

Typical Irish rugby solution. Munster are just as bad for doing it.

There should be a loan system in place between all the provinces. If a province loses 2 players of the same position the other province loans them out one of there fringe players.

As far as I'm concerned Ireland is more important than the provinces so they should be doing more to help the national team.

Props are thin enough on the ground for the provinces.

This is one position where you can't just throw in a young inexperienced guy.

That said I hope Mike Ross is given his fair chance.

thomond2006

Given that he will be behind Horan, Du Preez and maybe even Dave Ryan, Darragh Hurley would be a good loanee.

BTW I think this should be merged with the Leinster team talk thread. It was created to keep all Leinster general discussion like this in one place.

Just my 2c.

Risteard

thomond2006 wrote: »

Given that he will be behind Horan, Du Preez and maybe even Dave Ryan, Darragh Hurley would be a good loanee.

BTW I think this should be merged with the Leinster team talk thread. It was created to keep all Leinster general discussion like this in one place.

Just my 2c.

He's injury prone as well.

thomond2006

Risteard wrote: »

He's injury prone as well.

Aye, I can't really think of someone else (in Ireland) who is not getting gametime but is experience though.

And it's really a loosehead they want, not a tighthead.

FridaysWell

Leinster should really start investing in Prop nurserys, the Wicklow/Dublin Mountains would be a perfect location for it.

[Jackass]

McCormack is not good enough for HEC level and is barely good enough for ML level. I was actually very surprised that he didn't hang up his boots at the end of last season.

McGrath & Maguire are prospects, but certainly not ready for regular first team action yet, as they simply wouldn't be able to compete against top packs. It would be a major major weakness.

That leaves Healy, Ross & VDM. Healy & ppossibly even Ross may spend some time away from Leinster due to internatioal duty and cotton wool year.

Which leaves VDM as the only proven quality prop at some point.

We're not signing ANOTHER foreign prop, we will be sans Stan for the entire season, so we can forget about him for now, but we still need someone to play Stans roll, as it's vital, and the quality of prop may only be to provide back-up for Ross who will now take over Stans roll, but either way, we need another prop.

Personally I'd love it if Ross played 3 and we won the HEC and ML and he won world player of the year and McCormack, McGrath and Maguire stepped up and suddenly became internationals and are the backbone to Irelands world cup winning campaign, but it's just not realistic.

Amazotheamazing

Interesting to see who gets signed, Munster went looking for an Irish qualified prop and had to settle for Borlase who can eventually qualify for Ireland, you'd assume the IRFU or PAG have a list of potential poaches or Irish qualified players. Will be interesting to see who the Leinster branch bring in.

It would be madness for Leinster to not bring someone in.

danthefan

Why would Leinster want a fringe Munster player exactly?

thehighground

danthefan wrote: »

Why would Leinster want a fringe Munster player exactly?

You'd think they would have learned their lesson with Mike Ross!

Shelflife

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Interesting to see who gets signed, Munster went looking for an Irish qualified prop and had to settle for Borlase who can eventually qualify for Ireland, you'd assume the IRFU or PAG have a list of potential poaches or Irish qualified players. Will be interesting to see who the Leinster branch bring in.

It would be madness for Leinster to not bring someone in.

They didnt look too hard as Bracken was available until late in the summer, not sure how he would rate against Borlase but hes a solid enough player.

Amazotheamazing

Shelflife wrote: »

They didnt look too hard as Bracken was available until late in the summer, not sure how he would rate against Borlase but hes a solid enough player.

Bracken isn't good enough, and he's fairly pushing on. He'd be a fine short term signing but Munster needed a long time signing.

Tim Robbins

This is probably indicative of Leinster still have a very narrow player base. It's still just a private schools sport with a handful of exceptions. That's not good enough in this day and age.

danthefan

Tim Robbins wrote: »

This is probably indicative of Leinster still have a very narrow player base. It's still just a private schools sport with a handful of exceptions. That's not good enough in this day and age.

You'd never catch Munster bringing in cover when one of their first choice props was out for an extended period :rolleyes:

mrboswell

profitius wrote: »

Typical Irish rugby solution. Munster are just as bad for doing it.

There should be a loan system in place between all the provinces. If a province loses 2 players of the same position the other province loans them out one of there fringe players.

As far as I'm concerned Ireland is more important than the provinces so they should be doing more to help the national team.

Loan system?
It was hard enough getting the boys in red to put as much into playing in green
Edit: not intending to get into us v them - only pointing out that it would just never work.

But on a more serious note as there are only 4 provinces it wouldn't work without some conflict of interest developing (or at least the potential for it). That's not worth considering as a serious idea.

Fact is its all about the squad. Leinster have cover that they probably hope they never have to use - just like any major team. The way the game is played nowadays there is the potential to lose 3 props in one game (4 in HCup) and thats presuming that over the course of a long and hard season that your best 3 or 4 props are fit in the first place.

You can't underestimate the benefit of top foreign props passing experience on to up and coming players. What's the alternative to bringing in foreign props anyway? Letting irish players get creamed at the hands of better players from other countries and not improving. Not to mention coaching....
Success breeds success - that has to count for something in considering player development.

If you are that pushed about Ireland being the most important team maybe you should be asking the IRFU to share some of their Aviva money and invest it purely in Irish prop development.

Ultimately the provinces are there to improve and compete with the intention of winning top competitions not just develop players for the national team. They are run like businesses so you have to expect them to act like businesses and head hunt players.

If you need to replace a player why not replace them with the best you can find. Pointless in putting in someone Irish in just because they are Irish. That will just lower that standard even more.

theKramer

danthefan wrote: »

You'd never catch Munster bringing in cover when one of their first choice props was out for an extended period :rolleyes:

Before you go bitching at other provinces you should get your facts straight. Munster were down to playing Stephen Archer in an ML game last year before they went looking for a replacement prop. Archer is still only in the academy for Chr!sts sake.

I have no problem with Leinster signing another prop, but please stop being a tool and making posts like that!!!!!

danthefan

theKramer wrote: »

Before you go bitching at other provinces you should get your facts straight. Munster were down to playing Stephen Archer in an ML game last year before they went looking for a replacement prop. Archer is still only in the academy for Chr!sts sake.

I have no problem with Leinster signing another prop, but please stop being a tool and making posts like that!!!!!

I have no problem with what Munster did, I have problem with the likes of Tim up there.

Zzippy

Did they bring in the new rule for the ML this year whereby teams must have 2 props on the bench i.e. 8 on the bench instead of 7? There was talk of doing it last year but it was postponed AFAIK, just wondering if they introduced it for this season? If they did then teams would need extra backup props, especially with the international players being rested so much...

mrboswell

Zzippy wrote: »

Did they bring in the new rule for the ML this year whereby teams must have 2 props on the bench i.e. 8 on the bench instead of 7? There was talk of doing it last year but it was postponed AFAIK, just wondering if they introduced it for this season? If they did then teams would need extra backup props, especially with the international players being rested so much...

Must be 6 front row in the match day 23.
See 5.6 here

Amazotheamazing

danthefan wrote: »

I have no problem with what Munster did, I have problem with the likes of Tim up there.

Isn't Tim a Leinster supporter? Why did you feel the need to drag Munster into it?

danthefan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Isn't Tim a Leinster supporter? Why did you feel the need to drag Munster into it?

There's a clear implication in his post that Leinster are doing something wrong and other provinces are doing something right by going to the clubs more, not just schools.

I'm just pointing out Munster, who are traditionally more based on the clubs than Leinster had to bring in cover last season when Horan got injured.

As for "dragging Munster into it", don't be so precious. Mentioning another province doesn't automatically mean something negative. I clearly stated I have no problem with what Munster did, it was the right call.

I don't know who Tim supports.

profitius

danthefan wrote: »

You'd never catch Munster bringing in cover when one of their first choice props was out for an extended period :rolleyes:

I criticised Munster in the past for always bringing in short term signings.

Last season Munster signed Toby Morland from NZ as cover for the scrum halfs. He hardly got any game. Du Preeze played in alot of games but his signing pushes Dave Ryan down to third choice. Dave Ryan is fast improving and needs gametime now.

Looking at the big picture Irish rugby can continue to bring in foreign props or actually start really developing Irish props.

At least its a chance for Ross to impress. Theres nothing like getting gametime to imporve. Lets all remember Stan Wright has improved alot since he first came to Leinster. He got plenty of gametime and Ross needs that too.

Ciaran-Irl

thomond2006 wrote: »

Maybe they could sign an Australian prop till Christmas. They don't have a domestic comp in Australia (after they got rid of the money hemorrhaging ARC) so the Aussies not involved internationally just play with AIL-like clubs (Randwick etc) right now I think? There might be an avenue there.

Good point that, but I doubt they have anyone good enough. If you go past Australia's first choice front row, they are woeful. Look at what England did to the second string in the summer for reference.

Also, I reckon we need a tighthead. McGrath & Healy are looseheads, and Ronnie and HVDM are looseheads that can switch sides. (In poor Ronnie's case, he can't actually play either side, so that gives the illusion of being able to switch.)

That means we only have Mike Ross as an out and out tighthead, so thta has to be the priority, or at least someone that can switch - á la Stan.

smurphy29

This thread is rather farcical I must say. We'd all love to be in the ideal world where Irish props were falling out of the sky and Stanley Wright being injured meant Leinster could sign an Irish fella or have another good Irish prop ready to take his place. But the simple fact is, we don't. John Hayes is still the country's first choice tighthead, remember? The next best is Mushy Buckley, who we all agree has big problems in the scrum. As one other poster pointed out, the young academy props are nowhere near ready to be thrown to the lions. This leaves Leinster with three decent props (only one of which is tighthead) and Ronnie McCormack, who we all know is a B&I Cup player.

Of course Leinster have to look abroad for a decent replacement. Being 'disappointed' with this is soft-headed idealism.

Tim Robbins

danthefan wrote: »

You'd never catch Munster bringing in cover when one of their first choice props was out for an extended period :rolleyes:

Why bring Munster into it?

I am making this comment as a Leinster fan and someone involved with the sport at grassroots. The sport has made some efforts to broaden its player base but not enough. I think there should be an external review from the sports council or some organisation outside the branch.

Think about this way, you're a yound lad from a junior club. You make a Leinster youths panel and with the same amout of coaching as a schools player you could be a serious prospect. But you are also playing G.A.A. and on the your county's minor panel. In this regard, you are in a level playing field and not at a disadvantage because you didn't go to a certain school.

Why would you keep banging you head of the wall with the rugby lads when you don't have to with the G.A.A. lads?

I remember a Clontarf coach saying quotas should be used. I think he had a point.

danthefan

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Why bring Munster into it?

Sigh. Already dealt with.

I am making this comment as a Leinster fan and someone involved with the sport at grassroots. The sport has made some efforts to broaden its player base but not enough. I think there should be an external review from the sports council or some organisation outside the branch.

Fair play then, honestly.

Think about this way, you're a yound lad from a junior club. You make a Leinster youths panel and with the same amout of coaching as a schools player you could be a serious prospect. But you are also playing G.A.A. and on the your county's minor panel. In this regard, you are in a level playing field and not at a disadvantage because you didn't go to a certain school.

Why would you keep banging you head of the wall with the rugby lads when you don't have to with the G.A.A. lads?

I remember a Clontarf coach saying quotas should be used. I think he had a point.

This is all just hypothetical stuff. It's not as if there aren't young props in the Leinster system, there are plenty. But it's just not a position you can take a young guy and throw him in there, as there is a risk of serious injury to himself and others.

Leinster with their schools system or other provinces that I won't actually name because people get upset for some bizarre reason with their clubs are both in the exact same boat.

Otacon

danthefan wrote: »

This is all just hypothetical stuff. It's not as if there aren't young props in the Leinster system, there are plenty. But it's just not a position you can take a young guy and throw him in there, as there is a risk of serious injury to himself and others.

Leinster with their schools system or other provinces that I won't actually name because people get upset for some bizarre reason with their clubs are both in the exact same boat.

Talk about being obtuse!

Tim wasn't saying that they should put a young Irish player into Leinster's first team. He was making the point that if Leinster start investing more time and grant more opportunities to players outside of schools, they may get into this situation less often.

danthefan

Otacon wrote: »

Talk about being obtuse!

Tim wasn't saying that they should put a young Irish player into Leinster's first team. He was making the point that if Leinster start investing more time and grant more opportunities to players outside of schools, they may get into this situation less often.

And I'm pointing out that elsewhere where more is seemingly invested in players outside schools the exact same thing happened last season.

Tim Robbins

danthefan wrote: »

And I'm pointing out that elsewhere where more is seemingly invested in players outside schools the exact same thing happened last season.

You don't need to go into elsewhere in Ireland. The numbers playing rugby in Ireland are small everywhere and in all cases there is a disportionate amount coming from the schools.

We all know certain players picked up rugby late (e.g. John Hayse, Kevin Maggs) and Irish rugby isn't a complete closed shop however there are elements of it that could be greatly improved. Especially in Leinster. There are too many old boy clicks going on. For some people this is what the sport is about. Maintaining their old boy clicks. And for other people, they just love the sport and wish to see the Gospel spread.

Look at the Dublin GAA team on Sunday. How many of them have to go to fashionable schools to get their chance? None. They are picked purely on athletic ability and have a chance no matter where they are from. You don't seem to get these old boy clicks with the g.a.a. That's what rugby should be aiming for.

sock puppet

There's nothing wrong with signing cover but I hope whoever it is spends the majority of his time here on the bench. When the Reds lost Horwill this year (at the time the only Reds forward making the Australian 22) they had to replace him with one of their young inexperienced guys Rob Simmons. He's now a capped international. If Ross gets a few months as first choice tighthead he may force his way into the Irish 22.

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Good point that, but I doubt they have anyone good enough. If you go past Australia's first choice front row, they are woeful. Look at what England did to the second string in the summer for reference.

They are pretty bad but they'd be fine at Magners League/Heineken Cup level assuming they'd be allowed play up here.

danthefan

Tim Robbins wrote: »

You don't need to go into elsewhere in Ireland. The numbers playing rugby in Ireland are small everywhere and in all cases there is a disportionate amount coming from the schools.

We all know certain players picked up rugby late (e.g. John Hayse, Kevin Maggs) and Irish rugby isn't a complete closed shop however there are elements of it that could be greatly improved. Especially in Leinster. There are too many old boy clicks going on. For some people this is what the sport is about. Maintaining their old boy clicks. And for other people, they just love the sport and wish to see the Gospel spread.

Look at the Dublin GAA team on Sunday. How many of them have to go to fashionable schools to get their chance? None. They are picked purely on athletic ability and have a chance no matter where they are from. You don't seem to get these old boy clicks with the g.a.a. That's what rugby should be aiming for.

I don't accept guys get picked just because they went to Blackrock or Belvo or whatever, it's because Blackrock invest heavily in them and give them the opportunity to become professionals. And I don't accept Mick Dawson or Cheika in the last 5 years or Schmidt from here on will be remotely interested in where guys are from.

What would your solution be though? Divert limited resources (coaches and money) away from schools?

You could bring up this argument absolutely any time Leinster sign a foreign player.

Tim Robbins

danthefan wrote: »

I don't accept guys get picked just because they went to Blackrock or Belvo or whatever, it's because Blackrock invest heavily in them and give them the opportunity to become professionals. And I don't accept Mick Dawson or Cheika in the last 5 years or Schmidt from here on will be remotely interested in where guys are from.

Yes but the only reason why those lads are better is because they train 6 days a week whereas lads playing in New Ross or Gorey or wherever only train one day a week.

Therefore it's extremly likely if you are a prop from New Ross and you are in a trial match that someone from Blackrock could be a better player because they are playing at their 100% potential where the New Ross lad is only at 50% of his potential.

Secondly, if you look throughout the branch it is full of committees. These are full of old school boys who all know each other. When selections are going to be made it's naieve to think they aren't going to be looking out for their own.

What would your solution be though? Divert limited resources (coaches and money) away from schools?

You could bring up this argument absolutely any time Leinster sign a foreign player.

1. External, objective and dispassionate review from outside the organisation. The outcome should be goal driven to increase player base and number of elite players from non rugby playing schools.
2. Creation of a trophy of significance and stature for youth teams. This would parallel 'The Towns Cup'.
3. Schools are not allowed veto players playing for their clubs at U17 and U19 level.
4. Change climax of season for youths so it doesn't clash with the G.A.A's season.

profitius

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Look at the Dublin GAA team on Sunday. How many of them have to go to fashionable schools to get their chance? None. They are picked purely on athletic ability and have a chance no matter where they are from. You don't seem to get these old boy clicks with the g.a.a. That's what rugby should be aiming for.

Indeed spreading the game is the big step for rugby to take in this country.

There could be Dan Carters or BOD's out there but unless they happen to go to a rugby playing school the chances of them having a career in rugby is very small.

profitius

When the next round of 10 year tickets are sold for the Aviva stadium I'd like to see most of that spent on developing the game in non traditional area, AKA most of the country.

mrboswell

Otacon wrote: »

Talk about being obtuse!

Tim wasn't saying that they should put a young Irish player into Leinster's first team. He was making the point that if Leinster start investing more time and grant more opportunities to players outside of schools, they may get into this situation less often.

To be fair - Leinster, being the only HETAC recognised academy, are already investing more in their academy than any of the other provinces because they can afford to and not just in schools players. Probably a sizable amount more than the other provinces at that and what are the benefits? Props rapidly developing (among players in other positions), faster than before. They are in a position to make the grade earlier. Whether they make the grade in the end we will see.

Apart from giving them game time when they are ready/available to play due to injury of others what else can Leinster or the other provinces do?
Maybe invest in coaching a little more - but doesn't that bring us back to square one? Looking elsewhere for top class coaches...

Its not as cut and dry as people are making out. Generating home grown props of a world standard will take years to bed in.

profitius

mrboswell wrote: »

Apart from giving them game time when they are ready/available to play due to injury of others what else can Leinster or the other provinces do?
Maybe invest in coaching a little more - but doesn't that bring us back to square one? Looking elsewhere for top class coaches...

You can train people how to coach properly. At least the basics. So after a few courses they should be alot wiser. Good coaches will also study coaching all thier lives.

Amazotheamazing

Tbf, Leinster have brought players in from youths, guys like Sean O'Brien etc. We're in the early days of professionalism, youths will never overtake schools because schools will always have more time with players but hopefully more and more schools will come into the system based on youths players.

profitius

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Tbf, Leinster have brought players in from youths, guys like Sean O'Brien etc. We're in the early days of professionalism, youths will never overtake schools because schools will always have more time with players but hopefully more and more schools will come into the system based on youths players.

It depends. How many hours would schools players get? Youths have weekends and weeknights.

More schools would be helpful alright.

mrboswell

profitius wrote: »

You can train people how to coach properly. At least the basics. So after a few courses they should be alot wiser. Good coaches will also study coaching all thier lives.

I know it's a personal thing but in my opinion coaches can only coach to the level they attained themselves. I know not everyone will agree.
If you consider that ref's are there to ensure that props scrummage properly and most ref's seem to treat it as a lottery. So the way I see it is that because scrummaging is so specialised, there is only so much you can learn from a book or a few coaching courses. You need to have been in the trenches yourself.

If you want to train coaches they need to be trained by the best coaches.
In terms of scrummaging coaches that means looking out side Ireland.

profitius

mrboswell wrote: »

I know it's a personal thing but in my opinion coaches can only coach to the level they attained themselves. I know not everyone will agree.
If you consider that ref's are there to ensure that props scrummage properly and most ref's seem to treat it as a lottery. So the way I see it is that because scrummaging is so specialised, there is only so much you can learn from a book or a few coaching courses. You need to have been in the trenches yourself.

If you want to train coaches they need to be trained by the best coaches.
In terms of scrummaging coaches that means looking out side Ireland.

Yeah I'd agree about scrummaging. Its very technical and something harder to teach. Theres no doubt Ireland lacks the level of expertise as New Zealand for example.

[Jackass]

In summary:

Stan play for Leinster because there are not enough quality Leinster or Ireland based players to provide enough cover for the position in this country.

Stan is now effectively gone, and his position in Leinster is still justified by the fact that there isn't enough talent there (or at least not ready yet), so Stan must be replaced...

It's not rocket science...in fact, it's barely a "new" foreign signing seeing as it's a foreign player replacing a foreign player who is gone for the entire season / 6 months...

The simple point is, if Buckley, Hayes, Ross etc. etc. got injured, their respective teams would still need a foreign signing to replaxce them. Even though there are guys like Timmy Ryan floating about, they ar under contract and are not available...

danthefan

mrboswell wrote: »

I know it's a personal thing but in my opinion coaches can only coach to the level they attained themselves. I know not everyone will agree.
If you consider that ref's are there to ensure that props scrummage properly and most ref's seem to treat it as a lottery. So the way I see it is that because scrummaging is so specialised, there is only so much you can learn from a book or a few coaching courses. You need to have been in the trenches yourself.

If you want to train coaches they need to be trained by the best coaches.
In terms of scrummaging coaches that means looking out side Ireland.

I would tend to agree when it comes to coaching a scrum, you'd have to be a good scrummager to coach it imo.