Another new PM

tunney

http://www.power2max.de/

Crank based. €690

No mention of accuracy though.

mloc123

Any ideas when it is available? Will be interesting to see data.

mloc123

Interesting, looks like it bolts in between the spider and chainring on certain chainset... would have to wonder about accuracy

Lumen

Tunney, you forgot the most important bit...

...110BCD is supported!

<freddy fistpump>

Teferi

Six man-years of development

Is anyone else reading that in the Powerthirst voice?

tunney

It should be easy to move between bikes.
It will be accurate - alot like SRMs to be honest. SRMs patent on crank based strain guage power measurement devices has expired. Will be interesting to see how they respond.

@Lumen - yip, will take a compact. However not sure it will work for you though as most of the ANT+ head units won't display wattages less than 50 watts.

Chips Lovell

Get a room

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

@Lumen - yip, will take a compact. However not sure it will work for you though as most of the ANT+ head units won't display wattages less than 50 watts.

Au contraire my be-man-bra'd chum.

The Garmin 705 comes in a special "sportivo" edition which supports three significant figures of wattage display. Whenever you are going under 100W (for me, most of the time) you get to see your power to the nearest 0.1W.

tunney

Lumen wrote: »

Au contraire my be-man-bra'd chum.

The Garmin 705 comes in a special "sportivo" edition which supports three significant figures of wattage display. Whenever you are going under 100W (for me, most of the time) you get to see your power to the nearest 0.1W.

I was of course joking I'm fully aware of the ANT+ head units generally have a "PlanetX compatibility" mode.

billy.fish

mloc123 wrote: »

Interesting, looks like it bolts in between the spider and chainring on certain chainset... would have to wonder about accuracy

Why? It has the same attachments system as many cranks out there. No reason it wont be accurate.

Thats like saying 'oh those XTR cranks dont look to stiff'

DirkVoodoo

Is there any reason I could buy just the PM and fix it to an existing set of cranks or will it only be compatible with the list on their site?

billy.fish

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Is there any reason I could buy just the PM and fix it to an existing set of cranks or will it only be compatible with the list on their site?

Well:
1) its first generation
2)there are no details on accuracy
3) it'll only be compatible with certain cranks that take an internal spider


GO buy one and let us know if it works

DirkVoodoo

billy.fish wrote: »

Well:
1) its first generation
2)there are no details on accuracy
3) it'll only be compatible with certain cranks that take an internal spider


GO buy one and let us know if it works

So number 3 is really what I wanted to know, thank you.

Lumen

No SRAM S975, which is odd. The S900 is carbon-wrapped alloy.

The Vega crank appears to support a triple chainring setup, although I might be getting a little overexcited.

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

No SRAM S975, which is odd. The S900 is carbon-wrapped alloy.

The Vega crank appears to support a triple chainring setup, although I might be getting a little overexcited.

*Twitch*

tunney

billy.fish wrote: »

*Twitch*

A triple is a very valid chainset selection. Not everyone wants to race bikes Billy.Fish. Some people just want to ride to the shops every so often and happen to live in the Dolomites.

billy.fish

tunney wrote: »

A triple is a very valid chainset selection. Not everyone wants to race bikes Billy.Fish. Some people just want to ride to the shops every so often and happen to live in the Dolomites.

So get a compact

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

So get a compact

I read that most of the people doing the Marmotte were using triples. If you need stupidly low gearing, a triple is a better solution than a compact with a wider range cassette.

You cannot rise to the upper echelons of Fred-dom until your "stable" contains a Marmotte-specific bike with a power meter. A triple is just the icing on the cake.

Lumen

Have we done the AIP MEP yet?

A veritable bargain at €4k + taxes.

mloc123

Chunky cranks

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

Have we done the AIP MEP yet?

A veritable bargain at €4k + taxes.

L/R EFFICIENCY analyzer

My hole it does. Without a measure of metabolic cost this means nowt (HR is not a measure of this). If they are talking about pedalling motion...the polar system does that.

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

L/R EFFICIENCY analyzer

My hole it does. Without a measure of metabolic cost this means nowt (HR is not a measure of this). If they are talking about pedalling motion...the polar system does that.

I attempted to make sense of the whole "pedalling efficiency" idea the other day but my brain hurt.

From what I recall, the argument goes that if you're pressing down on the left (front) pedal with x force whilst simultaneously pressing down on the right (back) pedal with x/2 force, you are being "inefficient" by having your feet fighting each other, and need to be "unweighting the back foot" to be "more efficient".

But then you have to factor in gravity, and that's when my brain hurts.

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

I attempted to make sense of the whole "pedalling efficiency" idea the other day but my brain hurt.

From what I recall, the argument goes that if you're pressing down on the left (front) pedal with x force whilst simultaneously pressing down on the right (back) pedal with x/2 force, you are being "inefficient" by having your feet fighting each other, and need to be "unweighting the back foot" to be "more efficient".

But then you have to factor in gravity, and that's when my brain hurts.

Think of it this way, its not so much up down as the effective power being produced at any point in the pedal stroke. Its not just the 'im pushing on bopth legs at the same time' factor that you need to think about but how and where its being applied. Its all a bit crazy TBH. Usefull mind you.

The effect of gravity is minimal, its not something i'd worry about to much until you got into massivly long cranks and the rotational forces started getting very big. That or massive cadences.

tunney

billy.fish wrote: »

Think of it this way, its not so much up down as the effective power being produced at any point in the pedal stroke. Its not just the 'im pushing on bopth legs at the same time' factor that you need to think about but how and where its being applied. Its all a bit crazy TBH. Usefull mind you.

The effect of gravity is minimal, its not something i'd worry about to much until you got into massivly long cranks and the rotational forces started getting very big. That or massive cadences.

Are you talking about SpinScan here?

billy.fish

tunney wrote: »

Are you talking about SpinScan here?

No i'm talking science. Racermate don't do science. They do things that break.

tunney

billy.fish wrote: »

No i'm talking science. Racermate don't do science. They do things that break.

If had assembled the veletron properly it would never have happened.

billy.fish

Exactly if THEY had done it right

They come pre made

tunney

billy.fish wrote: »

Exactly if THEY had done it right

They come pre made

Look if you throw apples and tomatoes at the veletron disc to see them get shredded then you can expect to break it.

(a veletron disc is alot like the PX discs, weighs 50lbs and is lethal)

chakattack

I can't really decipher the website as I don't yet speak power meter.

Will it work with campagnolo ultra torque chainsets?

I presume this would be a much sounder investment than a set of aero racing wheels?

niceonetom

Why aren't powermeters getting cheaper faster?

billy.fish

chakattack wrote: »

I can't really decipher the website as I don't yet speak power meter.

Will it work with campagnolo ultra torque chainsets?

I presume this would be a much sounder investment than a set of aero racing wheels?

Does it have an integrated spider? if so no, if not yes.

billy.fish

niceonetom wrote: »

Why aren't powermeters getting cheaper faster?

Why arent frames getting cheaper faster.

Silly questions. Demand drives the price up not down.

niceonetom

billy.fish wrote: »

Why arent frames getting cheaper faster.

Silly questions. Demand drives the price up not down.

Wow. And I thought tunney was bullish, blunt, and prone to missing the point. At least he's usually correct and occasionally funny.

billy.fish

niceonetom wrote: »

Wow. And I thought tunney was bullish, blunt, and prone to missing the point. At least he's usually correct and occasionally funny.

Hah, if only you knew.

Prices wont come down on powermeters until they become common place.

Compared to what they were they have come down in price if you take into account how much they have come on in sampling rates, ease of use, and accuracy.

Anyway, i can be more insulting than that git any day

tunney

chakattack wrote: »

I can't really decipher the website as I don't yet speak power meter.

Will it work with campagnolo ultra torque chainsets?

No

chakattack wrote: »

I presume this would be a much sounder investment than a set of aero racing wheels?

Yes, if you will train properly with it. If you won't adhere to numbers than its not for you.

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

Demand drives the price up not down.

Only if supply is inelastic.

A power meter (of any sort) contains less electronic wizardry than an average mobile phone. Mobile phones are cheap because they are sold in the billions, but they are only sold in the billions because a bunch of phone Freds spent silly money on them in the 1980s.

I don't think power meters are poor value for money in the context of bicycle technology, considering the current state of development. Spoked aluminium wheels have been around for many decades, but the likes of Mavic, Zipp and HED still persuade people to spend upwards of €650 a pair on them.

Lumen

@chakattack:

As I understand it, all crankset-based powermeters are Campag-compatible, in the sense that your shifters and mechs don't care about your brand of crankset. Bottom bracket compatiility can be more of an issue, but BBs are usually cheap to switch. So, just switch cranksets.

I guess in this case they're selling the concept of fitting a power meter on to your existing cranks to reduce the expenditure a bit, but if you want cheap(er) you should just get a powertap.

tunney

chakattack wrote: »

I can't really decipher the website as I don't yet speak power meter.

Will it work with campagnolo ultra torque chainsets?

I presume this would be a much sounder investment than a set of aero racing wheels?

The powerDe will not work with campag chainsets. Look to Quarg.
If you are happy training with numbers and realising that you are wasting your time for most of the club rides and spins with friends and want to get fast then yes its a better investment than aero wheels

niceonetom wrote: »

Why aren't powermeters getting cheaper faster?

SRM €3500
then came PT €2000
then came Quarg €1500
now PowerDe €690

How is that not getting cheaper!

niceonetom wrote: »

Wow. And I thought tunney was bullish, blunt, and prone to missing the point. At least he's usually correct and occasionally funny.

Score - I'm funny! Screw you billy.fish

billy.fish wrote: »

Hah, if only you knew.

Prices wont come down on powermeters until they become common place.

Anyway, i can be more insulting than that git any day

They are becoming common place - much like HRMs. everyone has one and no one uses them.

We'll see who can make who cry with insults.

Lumen wrote: »

@chakattack:

I guess in this case they're selling the concept of fitting a power meter on to your existing cranks to reduce the expenditure a bit, but if you want cheap(er) you should just get a powertap.

This is cheaper than a PT no?

billy.fish

tunney wrote: »

The powerDe will not work with campag chainsets. Look to Quarg.
If you are happy training with numbers and realising that you are wasting your time for most of the club rides and spins with friends and want to get fast then yes its a better investment than aero wheels



SRM €3500
then came PT €2000
then came Quarg €1500
now PowerDe €690

How is that not getting cheaper!



Score - I'm funny! Screw you billy.fish



They are becoming common place - much like HRMs. everyone has one and no one uses them.

We'll see who can make who cry with insults.



This is cheaper than a PT no?

Not as common as HRM's tunney and you know it. I do agree that most people see them as a number generating machine and have no real reason to own one though.

Lumen

tunney wrote: »

This is cheaper than a PT no?

An Elite+ hub built into an IRD Cadence rim is £665 delivered from wheelsmith.co.uk, compared to £170 for the same with an Ambrosio hub.

So that's £500 for the "power meter" element, assuming you have a Garmin already.

niceonetom

Ok, so they are getting cheaper, but achingly slowly in comparison with nearly all tech do-das we're surrounded by. I was looking for a real answer, perhaps patent related, perhaps related to a particularly difficult manufacturing process hard to make cheaper, or (reaching) due to inherent cost in strain gauges etc... It seems though that the real answer is that the manufacturers still feel that there' money to be made squeezing the early adopters before inevitably rolling out something more affordable for the freddly mainstream.

tunney wrote: »

Score - I'm funny! Screw you billy.fish

I said occasionally. I did not say intentionally.

billy.fish

niceonetom wrote: »

... It seems though that the real answer is that the manufacturers still feel that there' money to be made squeezing the early adopters before inevitably rolling out something more affordable for the freddly mainstream.

Thats pretty much it there i think, hardly early adopters though, some of us have been using power for over 5 years on the road, longer if you could lab work.

SRM have been around for a long long time, and even they have become cheaper, if harder to deal with.

Lumen

billy.fish wrote: »

Not as common as HRM's tunney and you know it. I do agree that most people see them as a number generating machine and have no real reason to own one though.

Is there some committee somewhere that approves applications to the power meter club?

I think they're interesting even when used casually by the non-racing cyclist.

For instance (and I'm steeling myself for the scorn) I used one on last weekends Etape Hibernia. The first two hours was in a bunch at 34kph, and the next 2.5 hours was on my own (painfully) at 27kph.

How much of that speed drop was due to the lack of drafting vs a drop-off in effort? How much was down to headwind vs hills? I could use HR to tell me, but I ended up dehydrated so that could have been well off.

Obviously these are questions that don't need to be answered because they don't matter, but the curious geek wants to know anyway.

Raam

Tom, are you coming to the lab on Thurs to get tested?

Edit: since some of yis don't always answer emails, I'm resorting to this :P

Lumen

Raam wrote: »

Tom, are you coming to the lab on Thurs to get tested?

Dude, I don't think Tom wants details of his sexual health checkups bandied about on the internet.

Raam

Lumen wrote: »

Dude, I don't think Tom wants details of his sexual health checkups bandied about on the internet.

This is what I'm on about! It's a yes or no answer, not a questioning of anyone's sexuality!

billy.fish

Lumen wrote: »

Is there some committee somewhere that approves applications to the power meter club?

Google wattage

Lumen wrote: »

I think they're interesting even when used casually by the non-racing cyclist.

Deffo, only been using them for so long cause its work related persay

Lumen wrote: »

For instance (and I'm steeling myself for the scorn) I used one on last weekends Etape Hibernia. The first two hours was in a bunch at 34kph, and the next 2.5 hours was on my own (painfully) at 27kph.

How much of that speed drop was due to the lack of drafting vs a drop-off in effort? How much was down to headwind vs hills? I could use HR to tell me, but I ended up dehydrated so that could have been well off.

Drafting - 30- 36% redcution in power behing 1st rider, decreasing by 6% per rider thereafter in a straight line.

Send me your powerfile

Lumen wrote: »

Obviously these are questions that don't need to be answered because they don't matter, but the curious geek wants to know anyway.

Its all about the geekness behind the file. Lots more past Av PO and Normalised PO

billy.fish

Raam wrote: »

This is what I'm on about! It's a yes or no answer, not a questioning of anyone's sexuality!

Its not that kinda lab kids.

Although we do have lots of gloves...

niceonetom

Sadly, I'm racing on Thursday.

Beasty

billy.fish wrote: »

Drafting - 30- 36% redcution in power behing 1st rider, decreasing by 6% per rider thereafter in a straight line.

I'd love to be number 13 in that line - does it feed power back into you when you are far enough back?:D

billy.fish

Beasty wrote: »

I'd love to be number 13 in that line - does it feed power back into you when you are far enough back?:D

hah! YEs yes it does...you should try it, behind a derny it's great fun.