Exercises women "shouldn't do"

yomchi

I'm sure many of you out there are coaches to women, and to some of the finest women martial artists in Ireland at that.

So what is your take on some the ideas listed here:

http://www.lemondrop.com/2009/01/07/exercises-that-are-bad-for-women/

about what women should and shouldn't do. I find some the reasons a tad sexist but do they make sense and if you have any other information regarding such exercises please feel free to share !

Dave Joyce

The vast majority of the article IS accurate BUT the way in which its phrased is very condesending. However, a lot of the issues apply to men equally as well as women e.g. men can also be injured performing straight leg push ups/chin ups/pull ups if they do not have the upper body strenght in a similar way to women. Many injuries occur in both sexes from poor hand positioning or body stablisation.

The Shane

I think lunges aren't that useful for anybody anyway. Better off squatting imho.

To argue that women aren't strong enough to do pull ups so shouldn't is a bit circular. Weak people in general should work up to them. The same is true of the push up argument. These are useful movements, they are stepping stone movements to even more useful movements and to say they should be left out is stupid. They should be appropriately trained up to and the issue of gender will impact that, not whether or not they should be trained up to.

I have no idea about the yoga argument. The advice could be right but the argument is stupid and just an appeal to some authority figure.

Shane, The

Sid_Justice

These are just general exercises what's the martial arts angle?

yomchi

I think lunges aren't that useful for anybody anyway. Better off squatting imho.

True, but then again lunges can be used to stretch the quads and hip flexors and can be part of a dynamic stretch warm up. None of the women that train with me have ever complained of uncomfortableness or pain afterwards

The vast majority of the article IS accurate BUT the way in which its phrased is very condesending. However, a lot of the issues apply to men equally as well as women e.g. men can also be injured performing straight leg push ups/chin ups/pull ups if they do not have the upper body strength in a similar way to women. Many injuries occur in both sexes from poor hand positioning or body stablisation.

I've done classes where push ups will be done after a heap of core works which putting the cart before the horse. The core is needed to stabilse the body as you do push ups, if it's tired your liable to injury as your core sags and places pressure on the lower back etc - so that makes sense too.

But to say women aren't strong enough to so them is a bit inward thinking. I was once told that women shouldn't do push ups due to unwanted pressure on the womb, which I though was bizarre!

eoghan.geraghty

The Shane wrote: »

I think lunges aren't that useful for anybody anyway. Better off squatting imho.

You must not be trying hard enough, next time try harder!

g'em

yomchi wrote: »

So what is your take on some the ideas listed here:

http://www.lemondrop.com/2009/01/07/exercises-that-are-bad-for-women/

There's a lot of truth in that article but it's written in an incredibly sexist and patronising way. "Buff-Guy" Exercise Moves? wtf are they meant to be??

THe Q-angle phenomenon is something that (in my personal experience) is overlooked by a lot of male coaches when dealing with female athletes. If doesn't make a women weaker or less capable, it simple means prehab work and certain exercises (like the lunge variations and foot placement during squat) need to be tailored for the female athlete.

ut for some of the others (chin-ups/ push-ups) well sure, that applies to women who are just starting out, but for strong female athletes whoa re perfectly capable of holding their own alongside male counterparts that advice is extremely condescending. Like The Shane said, it's a completely circular argument - it's not that women should exercise care with them, it's that weak people in general should.

Barry.Oglesby

There's a saying that gets thrown around our gym from time to time- 'the bigest problem with female athletes is the expectations of their male coaches'.

The argument in the link is fairly dimwitted.
Using inverted rows to build up back strength?- Good idea. Only ever doing your pulling excercises in the horizontal plain?- Bad idea. As Shane said, it's just a circular argument. Good programming will remove all the difficulties associated with what the author claims are the evils. What good programme doesn't include supplementary hamstring or lower back work?

We only have about 5 girls in our gym and all of them have some problems with certain exercises but then again, I would say that the same proprtion of men in the gym have the same problems. I'm telling this girl not to push 135kg next week, her legs might fall off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1VqY-amXBY

Clive

The article didn't mention the possibility of bear attack at all.

yomchi

What's the opinion on the push up question? Knees on the floor or no?

Some great info here, sometimes we get caught up in the most bizarre debates that we miss the fact there are people on here with huge amounts of knowledge relevant to sports.

Nice one

Chris Dowling

if a person is in shape with strong core, abs and back then knees on the floor is a waste of time and effort , on the other hand knees on the floor provides a work out to the woman who is building up to full push ups or just trying to tone and condition to a reasonable point!

wingnut4

yeh i was previously told to only do push ups with your legs crossed at the back as it puts pressure on the womb apparently. Im rubbish at pushups anyways, so im lucky if i can do the ladies ones!

g'em

wingnut4 wrote: »

yeh i was previously told to only do push ups with your legs crossed at the back as it puts pressure on the womb apparently.

This one never ceases to make me lol.

Our poor little delicate wombs, the structure that increases in volume capacity from about 6ml to 5000ml over the course of 9 months of pregnancy, the structure that gets kicked, pulled at, stretched and pushed and manages to perfectly and safely house a growing human being is so frail that a few push up swill shift it out of place or damage it.

Sure I might take to walking around with a cushion strapped to the front of me lest the stress of upright bipedalism causes it to spontaneously fall out from between my legs the next I'm strolling down Grafton Street.

Chris Dowling

g'em wrote: »

This one never ceases to make me lol.

Our poor little delicate wombs, the structure that increases in volume capacity from about 6ml to 5000ml over the course of 9 months of pregnancy, the structure that gets kicked, pulled at, stretched and pushed and manages to perfectly and safely house a growing human being is so frail that a few push up swill shift it out of place or damage it.

Sure I might take to walking around with a cushion strapped to the front of me lest the stress of upright bipedalism causes it to spontaneously fall out from between my legs the next I'm strolling down Grafton Street.

lol love it ! think that puts a final end to this question! :D:D

Barry.Oglesby

The knee push up is a scaled back method of doing push ups in the same way that lighter dumbells are scaled back version of heavier ones. It's the same for men or women.

The womb thing is mental.

Niall Keane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25oyiJnGXEA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Women are generally advised not to do this stage of nei gung training, though the excercises themselves are fine.

cletus

Niall Keane wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25oyiJnGXEA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Women are generally advised not to do this stage of nei gung training, though the excercises themselves are fine.

Why can women not do these things

Will Heffernan

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

There's a saying that gets thrown around our gym from time to time- 'the bigest problem with female athletes is the LOW expectations of their male coaches'.

Other than that....that article is just poor...when you start writing articles for the lowest common denominator you are on a slippery slope at the best of times.

Niall Keane

Why can women not do these things

Well the nei gung jump test works as the student has been taught how to effectively use his diaphram and abs etc. in concord to provide an "airbag" to withstand the force and prevent laserations / bursting to the internal organs.
Generally we build up to the 6 feet jump, it acting as a test, so we can assess our progress, I know two gentlemen who insisted in my prescence that this was a trick, and tried it themselves, despite my advice, only to bleed through their ass for days afterwards, at least they had the character to admit it, and that was from a jump of only 3 feet, a table top.
If the excercises have been carried out for 100 days there is no problem with the test, anyone can do it, if a guy hasn't been totally honest with his training, or trained incorrectly, he'll get injured, but will recover, this will be spotted at a lower jump, there is too much risk associated with the reproductive organs of a female to chance this.

g'em

Niall Keane wrote: »

there is too much risk associated with the reproductive organs of a female to chance this.

Niall - I'm not having a go at you here, I know you're just passing on what you've been told, but I'm intrigued by this and more than a little cynical.

What exactly is this jump test that makes it so dangerous to the internal organs? And do folks actually know where the female reproductive system is? These people know that guys' reproductive organs are on the inside too right? So what makes them so impervious to damage in this super-hardcore test?

yomchi

Shag the reproductive system, my stomach is there!!

Dyr

Niall Keane wrote: »

Well the nei gung jump test works as the student has been taught how to effectively use his diaphram and abs etc. in concord to provide an "airbag" to withstand the force and prevent laserations / bursting to the internal organs.
Generally we build up to the 6 feet jump, it acting as a test, so we can assess our progress, I know two gentlemen who insisted in my prescence that this was a trick, and tried it themselves, despite my advice, only to bleed through their ass for days afterwards, at least they had the character to admit it, and that was from a jump of only 3 feet, a table top.
If the excercises have been carried out for 100 days there is no problem with the test, anyone can do it, if a guy hasn't been totally honest with his training, or trained incorrectly, he'll get injured, but will recover, this will be spotted at a lower jump, there is too much risk associated with the reproductive organs of a female to chance this.

Is this the fella jumping off someones shoulders onto your stomach test?

Niall Keane

Bambi, that's the one, I’ve a link of some PTCCI lads in Stamford on post 16. Although allot of the clubs have one up, you might have seen one before? Torben Riff's of PTCCI Denmark is nicely filmed, 3 jumps from about 8 foot, whereas one of the lads here in Dublin had the guy accidently jump partially on to his hip and so fall straight after on top of him, looking a bit messy, but none the less demonstrating the effectiveness, just saying as to get it right for camera can take a number of attempts.

g'em, yes it's what I've been told, and unless a qualified specialist in this field of medicine confirms otherwise and such is accepted by the entire medical community I'll tend to take that advice, if only to err on the side of caution. I know it does no harm to guys through literally hundreds of years of testing, but I won't endanger the future reproductive potential of a woman just to be PC.

g'em

Niall Keane wrote: »

g'em, yes it's what I've been told, and unless a qualified specialist in this field of medicine confirms otherwise and such is accepted by the entire medical community I'll tend to take that advice, if only to err on the side of caution. I know it does no harm to guys through literally hundreds of years of testing, but I won't endanger the future reproductive potential of a woman just to be PC.

Has the process been confirmed to actually do damage by similar qualified specialists in the field of medicine? Surely if the practice is indeed as you've described, and involves lads jumping on top of each other then it's actually the males who are at much greater risk given that their reproductive organs are right there on the outside at full stomping potential? Have you had a qualified medical specialist confirm that it does them no harm? Or is that just from tried and tested methods. But if it hasn't been tested on women how does anyone know what it could do? Speculation?

This is really nothing to do with PC-ness at all, it just baffles me that such out-dated notions exist. If something is physically dangerous for a woman then it is surely physically dangerous for a man. I've yet to see a logical and factual argument to suggest that there is anything that a physically capable man does is not suitable for a woman.

Sid_Justice

surely a woman would be too sensible to allow some person to jump on her belly from six feet. I have never heard of anything so undeniably retarded. This sounds like something only a throughly silly masculine personality would involve itself in.

g'em

Sid_Justice wrote: »

surely a woman would be too sensible to allow some person to jump on her belly from six feet. I have never heard of anything so undeniably retarded. This sounds like something only a throughly silly masculine personality would involve itself in.

thank you for that genuine lol moment and it's a very, very valid point - amazing how you can get caught up in the semantics of an argument and not see the fail right in front of you :pac:

Dave Joyce

surely a woman would be too sensible to allow some person to jump on her belly from six feet. I have never heard of anything so undeniably retarded. This sounds like something only a throughly silly masculine personality would involve itself in.

Sounds silly TO YOU, because you don't know what Niall is talking about. If you know ANYTHING about Internal arts, you would know that its a test thats performed after a period of time conditioning your internal organs to withstand strikes. Its a long time since I practised Taiji, so I probably haven't worded that too well but I'm sure Niall will explain it better. It sure as **** has NOTHING to do with been macho.:rolleyes:

g'em

I'm going to go wildly OT here for a second but it's a genuine question: how does the test condition you for being struck when you're lying on the ground for it? Surely the biomechanics of being struck by a foot/leg/shin while standing are quite different to being jumped on?

Surely the best way to condition yourself for strikes is to get strikes as you would get them while fighting?

Niall Keane

Surely the biomechanics of being struck by a foot/leg/shin while standing are quite different to being jumped on?

This is done too, but only for demonstration purposes, as some of clip shows. It is not a necessary part of training, you are wrong above, because it is not about using the external muscle culture and skeleton to protect against blows from different angles, it does not matter which direction the blow comes from once you have spent , as Dave rightly said, a

period of time conditioning your internal organs to withstand strikes.

So you are not involving externally dynamic biomechanical movement to generate the protection, the biomechanics do not change if I may borrow your jargon. It’s all wrapped up in the "mysteries" of nei gung, which trains breathing, intent, movement and response to work in a martially efficient way, the much sought after Daoist use of "stillness" to defeat motion. I know it sounds esoteric and mystical, actually the practice is not, but it is something that has to be taught directly, trained diligently and felt / tested to understand. It is "gung fu", that is, it requires time and effort, it is not a show me once, or tell me and I'll understand, trick. Although many charlatans exist in Chinese Boxing who claim to sell such.

Real Nei Gung training lacks the excitement of external training, in fact its bloody boring, as much a test of stubbornness and will as endurance. It’s not a cool new combo or skillz, that can be applied next sparring session, you probably won’t notice any obvious benefit for a long time, the progression feels natural, like you always had it, like you always moved carried yourself that way, you forget what the classics call “sickness” of movement. For me what brought it home was being hit by a car some years back while cycling, and bouncing off the road on my back on to my feet, there was no way before I had practiced nei gung that I would have survived the impact, and after 87 international fights I understand impact, yet I walked away without a scratch. I’ve seen some of my students and fellow practitioners receive spinning side-kicks from 100 kg lads in fights and not bat an eyelid, it sure makes the kicker react more than batting his! And yes there is a healthy competitive atmosphere in my classes of testing out our nei gung during sparring. Of course that’s just the defensive aspect, achievable after 100 days, the real cool **** only begins then.

But I digress, re. this thread, I don’t know of any proper medical studies nor therefore any widely accepted and established medical opinions involving this Nei Gung method, and I would if they existed. So as such I stand by my statement, and place my trust in the tradition of testing the exercise as it was passed down, not in PC sentiments, nor in contemporary and frequently changeable sports-physio opinions. As I said better to err on the side of caution, who can be 100% certain, isn’t that what the defensive achievement of Nei Gung is about?

cletus

Niall Keane wrote: »

So you are not involving externally dynamic biomechanical movement to generate the protection, the biomechanics do not change if I may borrow your jargon.

Biomechanics isn't exactly jargon

Niall Keane wrote: »

It’s all wrapped up in the "mysteries" of nei gung, which trains breathing, intent, movement and response to work in a martially efficient way, the much sought after Daoist use of "stillness" to defeat motion. I know it sounds esoteric and mystical, actually the practice is not, but it is something that has to be taught directly, trained diligently and felt / tested to understand.

I understand that you are well respected both here on boards and in your martial art, Niall, but I am always sceptical when somebody brings out the above argument.


Is there any way you can explain how you condition your internal organ simply, on this thread? As a P.E. teacher and one time personal trainer, I would be very interested

skylar98

There is progression with every excercise, ie box push-up (begginner) to straight leg (advanced) there is variations in all of these progressions ie stability ball / incline / decline push up and of course arguments both for and against in most of these! Positioning and correct technique are the key to all of the excercises being performed by BOTH male and female participants safely and effectively. I have when teaching seen all levels of ability in both sexes :eek:. The argument regarding a womens womb i believe is not that it will DAMAGE THE WOMB" but that due to the extra organs a woman has it is harder to control the core area during the downward phase of the push up . Therefore it is not recommended untill core strength is built. (plank excercise is a good indicator of this, monitored through progressions) this however is not just restricted to women it is also recommended for junior and some adolesant training and of course to men if not used to the training arena. Progression and technique is the factor in all workouts! believe me i have seen some hideous bicep (back and hip thrusts) curls performed by men in gyms that does not mean that the "excercise" dosnt suit more that the practitioner needs re-training!!!!:D

EnjoyChoke

Niall Keane wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25oyiJnGXEA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Women are generally advised not to do this stage of nei gung training, though the excercises themselves are fine.

Is this off an episode of Jackass?

Niall Keane

Maybe in the episode "pearls before pigs"
It's not so amazing to me how those who cling to the modern populist anti-traditional orthodoxy so often act like mao's youth during the cultural revolution, dismissing all "older" knowledge just because it doesn't follow a party line. I wonder how those Child soldiers now feel having erased their culture to be replaced with Disney land shaolin monasteries? Probably like those Taliban will feel when they grow up and realise it wasn't something to celebrate in blowing up those buddas? But hey anything not tested and sanctioned by the party is rightist right?

Sid_Justice

Seriously Niall, I want some of the stuff you're smoking. Jumping on Bellies --> the cultural ramifications of American quasi-occupation of Afghanistan, there's not many that see that link.

OLDMAN1

you shouldn't knock something, just because you don't understand it!

Dave Joyce

you shouldn't knock something, just because you don't understand it!

Well that seems to be a Sid Justice speciality:rolleyes:. Great contribution by the way.

g'em

Niall Keane wrote: »

This is done too, but only for demonstration purposes, as some of clip shows. It is not a necessary part of training, you are wrong above, because it is not about using the external muscle culture and skeleton to protect against blows from different angles, it does not matter which direction the blow comes from once you have spent , as Dave rightly said,

But how can internal organs be 'conditioned'? To 'condition' something is to make it exhibit a specific response to a stimulus: are you trying to condition to internal organs to feel less pain? Impossible, your organs don't have pain receptors. Are you trying to condition them to withstand impact? Well that's kind of impossible too because your organs are made of an entirely different type of tissue to your skeletal muscle, you can't consciously strengthen in through training. You can't condition your organs to a specific response through training (including jumping up and down on them) so no, I'm not wrong.

What you can do is strengthen the skeletal muscle that protects the organs, and that's where you can argue whether there's merit in jumping on someone has any benefit to conditioning them to withstand blows.

Niall Keane wrote:

So you are not involving externally dynamic biomechanical movement to generate the protection, the biomechanics do not change if I may borrow your jargon. It’s all wrapped up in the "mysteries" of nei gung, which trains breathing, intent, movement and response to work in a martially efficient way, the much sought after Daoist use of "stillness" to defeat motion. I know it sounds esoteric and mystical, actually the practice is not, but it is something that has to be taught directly, trained diligently and felt / tested to understand. It is "gung fu", that is, it requires time and effort, it is not a show me once, or tell me and I'll understand, trick. Although many charlatans exist in Chinese Boxing who claim to sell such....

But I digress, re. this thread, I don’t know of any proper medical studies nor therefore any widely accepted and established medical opinions involving this Nei Gung method, and I would if they existed. So as such I stand by my statement, and place my trust in the tradition of testing the exercise as it was passed down, not in PC sentiments, nor in contemporary and frequently changeable sports-physio opinions. As I said better to err on the side of caution, who can be 100% certain, isn’t that what the defensive achievement of Nei Gung is about?

So on the one hand you dismiss the possibility of women taking part in this training because there is no medical back-up to say it's safe, and yet at the same time you say that even though there aren't any medical claims that it's ok for men, the reason it works is because of the "mysteries" of nei gung?

skylar98 wrote:

There is progression with every excercise, ie box push-up (begginner) to straight leg (advanced) there is variations in all of these progressions ie stability ball / incline / decline push up and of course arguments both for and against in most of these! Positioning and correct technique are the key to all of the excercises being performed by BOTH male and female participants safely and effectively. I have when teaching seen all levels of ability in both sexes . The argument regarding a womens womb i believe is not that it will DAMAGE THE WOMB" but that due to the extra organs a woman has it is harder to control the core area during the downward phase of the push up .

I was completely agreeing with your argument until the bit in bold :eek:

Extra organs? Compartively we don't have 'extra' organs, just different ones, all nicely protected under plenty of skin, skeletal muscle, subcutaneous and visceral fat. Much better protected than a man's reproductive organs that are swinging away on the outside of his body for exposure to all sorts of dangers tbh

Women's reproductive organs do not, in any way, shape or form interfere with core strength. A woman's womb will not interfere with her doing push-ups, it will not start bulging out of her sides when she's doing planks or side-bends, her fallopian tubes will not get themselves tangled into a horrible knotted mess when she tries to do Russian Twists.

Niall Keane

But how can internal organs be 'conditioned'? To 'condition' something is to make it exhibit a specific response to a stimulus:

True, that’s what the jump test…… tests?

are you trying to condition to internal organs to feel less pain? Impossible, your organs don't have pain receptors.

No. pain is not a factor.

Are you trying to condition them to withstand impact?

Yes.

Well that's kind of impossible too because your organs are made of an entirely different type of tissue to your skeletal muscle, you can't consciously strengthen in through training. You can't condition your organs to a specific response through training (including jumping up and down on them) so no, I'm not wrong.

Your skin is an organ and can be conditioned, I’m no doctor, but have tests proved that organs cannot be made “tougher”, not that this is the theory behind the nei gung either, just pointing out that not everything revolves around obvious muscle groups and external form.

What you can do is strengthen the skeletal muscle that protects the organs, and that's where you can argue whether there's merit in jumping on someone has any benefit to conditioning them to withstand blows.

There is no skeleton over the abdomen, hence the test. But the diaphragm in concord with the intercostals muscles play a part.

As I have said I know of no medical exploration of the method and why it works. I could guess, but it would be a lay opinion. Below I will give an opinion, no doubt replete with many inaccuracies, I am no doctor.

Writings on the methods are restricted to Chinese Medical terminology, so they are of no use in providing a medical explanation, they were designed to assist the practitioner, whom they do, and it speaks of nourishing the “chi” and developing Nei Jin – internal force. Chi normally in martial arts refers to what we would understand as the respiratory system, the cardio-vascular system and the nervous system. So there is an idea of cultivating movement to make these systems work in concord in a martially virtuous way. The first stage is to unify breath and movement, the second intent and movement.

What does this mean, well it refers to the entire body opening and closing in each movement (expansion and contraction) but in a way that does not leave vulnerable targets, so for one example the chest is “hollowed” not exposing the solar plexus ever, breathing is therefore trained to maximize the use of the diaphragm and back in expanding and contracting the lung cavity, this in turn “massages” the internal organs, as it is the abdomen that expands and contracts visibly whereas you can visibly see most athletes chests expand and lift and collapse constantly, this is programmed out of Nei jia fighters. This breathing method is synchronised with movement of the force generating “bows” the shoulders and spine and hips, as forces are generated and applied. There is a concept Cai Liang (gathering the wave), which although easy enough to grasp in practice, perhaps is difficult to explain here, every movement is like a “wave”, one side of the body will lift and expand then crash and contract as the other side does the opposite to generate an accordion type of squeezed / whip-like forces that are coordinated to allow pulls and strikes, locks, indeed any form of leverage to be natural and always “there” this is what is meant by yin and yang aiding one another.

Offensively is allows you to instantly generate short but very powerful force, the one inch, or zero inch punch being a crude example, defensively it allows for absorbsion and redirection of force by the torso. The hands / arms hardly move in Nei Jia arts, it’s always the core, that’s why many speak of the lower dantian being the centre of the body.

So when a blow is received in the abdomen the lungs act as “airbags” the diaphragm offering a controlled release of pressure, the chest remains still powerful enough not to burst, try this on a normal healthy individual and their diaphragm and lungs collapse instantly offering no protection, they breath using expansion of the chest as much as the diaphragm, and so the chest “bursts” with pressure, and the air escapes through the mouth. I’m guessing that their organs are not used to being massaged and moved about, instead tightly compacted beneath the tightened abdominals and so “tied” down without anywhere to move in order to dissipate the full force of the blow.

This is just my take on how it feels, there is no medical back up here, the proof is in the pudding so to speak, it is kinda funny when people witness a demonstration of the jump test and then decide that theoretically it is impossible because of their understanding of “biomechanical limitations”.

The Nei Gung itself is a set of 24 exercises, 12 Yin (designed for force absorbsion) and 12 Yang (to train in the issuing of force) each exercise contains a martial technique / principle of movement, normally they are practiced in sets of 41 to 111, the numbers have Daoist significance. Each set of 12 takes approximately 35 minutes to an hour depending on speed. As I said before it’s demanding of endurance and time and it’s bloody boring. But it is the basis of Tai Chi Chuan movement and how tactics and strategies are internalized.

So on the one hand you dismiss the possibility of women taking part in this training because there is no medical back-up to say it's safe, and yet at the same time you say that even though there aren't any medical claims that it's ok for men, the reason it works is because of the "mysteries" of nei gung?

No, I never said that at all, please reread, I will expand, although perhaps I waste my time, if all you seek are perceived errors or inconsistancies to counter with, try to listen, and grasp the information being provided, not the faults you wish to discover, I said that traditionally it is passed down that women should not take the tests because tradition holds that it may damage their reproductive organs, but men have since at least 1750, possibly since 1350 taken the tests and been fine. Out of concern for the wellbeing of women I would not begin to have them take the tests unless some concrete medical studies refuted tradition and proved conclusively that it was definitely o.k. Otherwise it is to abandon caution to the wind for the sake of being PC. So can you show me accepted medical evidence that it is ok?

My other life, as an architect designing medical facilities and hospitals has meant at times I have conferred with world experts in a field, for example in the case of hybrid theatres (cardiology and cardiac surgery combined) of which only a handful exist worldwide, design conferences were called, experts employed to advise, because the world leaders procuring the facility recognized that even they do not know everything, or perhaps have not considered some aspect critical to the success of a project. We would also arrange to visit existing facilities if such existed to bench mark and gain the experienced wisdom of those working there.

Stuff like this teaches me one thing, that medical opinions are just that opinions, often well founded, and from specialists I engage with always well considered, but the leaders in the medical field all share the same trait, they lack the arrogance evident in so many sports nutritionists and physios, understand that their expertise is restricted, always seek to improve and broaden their knowledge, and welcome the experienced imput of others. Perhaps that's what makes them innovative and leaders?

Are there medical journals on Nei Gung? No. Does that make it a fallacy? Well the results are evident.

There was a time when the world was recorded as being flat, the highest authorities (divinely infallible) concurred, were they right?

cletus

Niall Keane wrote: »

There is no skeleton over the abdomen, hence the test. But the diaphragm in concord with the intercostals muscles play a part.

I havent got through your whole post yet, but skeletal muscle are the muscles under your direct control, which effect movement on the skeleton, so the rectus abdominus, trasverse abdominals, and obliques would be the main skeletal muscles in the area being discussed, this is what g'em was refering to, as opposed to bone

Sid_Justice

Just for people that haven't read the entire posts so far Niall has taken a swing at:

Architectural Technicians (and all other technicians)
Physiotherapists
Sports Nutritionists
And all other Heath care professionals that aren't Doctors

Niall Keane

Thank you for the explanation cletus, I had misunderstood the medical jargon, inferring the use of both bone and muscle as a compressive shield, (I'm not calling it jargon in a negative fashion, I am glad to have been informed of its meaning, just pointing out that it is not a term commonly used by lay persons. You'll notice I try to explain every Chinese / Daoist term I use to avoid similar misunderstanding.)

Regarding the three muscle groups you mention, they are kept relaxed during the jump test, if that helps? From experience it feels like the controlled release of tensile strength developed and maintained in the diaphragm is the primary method of force attenuation. Like I said it’s difficult to convey in writing, I'm not a doctor. But what it definitely isn't is tensing the abs, or compressing those muscle groups.

Niall Keane

Just for people that haven't read the entire posts so far Niall has taken a swing at:

Architectural Technicians (and all other technicians)
Physiotherapists
Sports Nutritionists
And all other Heath care professionals that aren't Doctors

Mounting a campaign???

Sid Vicious Justice, making the martial arts board safe for the beliefs of punk-ass bitches everywhere!!! :pac::pac::pac: Don't think you're a Sex Pistol Sid, but you're certainly a tool for that post!

Barry.Oglesby

I don't think anyone said that the jump test was impossible Niall, just a bit crazy.

I'm skeptical of the reasoning behind this. Are you saying that you can gain nervous control over the internal organs in the abdominal cavity? That they can be conditioned to recieve blows? You're a loquacious fella which is your right, but I'd like you to keep the answer to those questions succinct if you don't mind. Yes or no and a short explanation. I'm not trying to offend you it's just that in my experience longer replies tend to obfuscate the message, which, in this case, I think is a bad thing considering the nature of what's being claimed.

By the by, I've seen some "impossible" stuff done from 5 feet away. Throat punches and chopsticks driven at the trachea being one example, so I'm not skeptical about the mind's ability to ignore pain and a disciplined individual's ability to condition himself to recieve punishment. I am skeptical about the reasoning behind it. In short, I don't doubt that things like this can be done, I just doubt that it's what you think it is that's doing it.

Niall Keane

Barry, I enjoyed reading your question, I’ll return the favour by being as succinct and apt in my reply as possible.

Are you saying that you can gain nervous control over the internal organs in the abdominal cavity?

No.

That they can be conditioned to receive blows?

I don’t know, I know that a “shen-fa” a martial deportment can be developed by these exercises to become natural (internal) and that automatically protects them, although in the jump test it feels more like the diaphragm doing the work and it is certainly not the abs. Straining / forcing / over compression or tension of large muscle groups is a big taboo in Internal Arts, it makes recovery time, transformation from one technique to another slower, so force must be received on the go so as to speak without having to tense-up.

The reasoning behind the exercises / tests is to develop this martial ability, what the original design considerations were when inventing the sets is only communicated through Chinese medical terms which won’t help us understand them through modern medical science. Hence “the mysteries of nei-gung” They work and that’s why I practice them, I’m more into the result than the modern explanation or theory. All I can tell you is how it “feels”, like a patient would, I lack the medical expertise to communicate effectively any further than that, I’ve offered a few guesses. Apologies, as I am unable to be more helpful.

Dave Joyce

I can definately say I know where Niall is coming from here as the concept of Nei Gung is hard enough to understand (especially someone with my limited intelligence ) let alone try to EXPLAIN to others, particularly those wishing to have the concept proved to them.

I remember when training with Master Yang, Jwing Ming once, he mentioned that even high level practisioners of martial arts found they could only read at most a couple of pages a day of this book http://ymaa.com/publishing/books/qigong/eight_simple_qigong it was such hard going, but it does explain things in detail (not that I have even attempted to read it, to be honest).

I suppose for the amount of work it takes, a lot of people would not view it as a good/worthwhile return

OLDMAN1

Dave Joyce wrote: »

I can definately say I know where Niall is coming from here as the concept of Nei Gung is hard enough to understand (especially someone with my limited intelligence ) let alone try to EXPLAIN to others, particularly those wishing to have the concept proved to them.

I remember when training with Master Yang, Jwing Ming once, he mentioned that even high level practisioners of martial arts found they could only read at most a couple of pages a day of this book http://ymaa.com/publishing/books/qigong/eight_simple_qigong it was such hard going, but it does explain things in detail (not that I have even attempted to read it, to be honest).

I suppose for the amount of work it takes, a lot of people would not view it as a good/worthwhile return

qigong training is well worth doing and it tranfers to striking and wrestling , i just finished a wrestling session with a guy that went for single leg takedown 3 or 4 times , he got the leg but he couldn't get it off the floor, now this guy is a good wrestler that can bench press 150kgs, deadlift well over 200kgs and squats around 160 but he couldn't get a single leg off the floor of little 90kg me, please dont ask me to explain, i just know it works

yomchi

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

qigong training is well worth doing and it tranfers to striking and wrestling , i just finished a wrestling session with a guy that went for single leg takedown 3 or 4 times , he got the leg but he couldn't get it off the floor, now this guy is a good wrestler that can bench press 150kgs, deadlift well over 200kgs and squats around 160 but he couldn't get a single leg off the floor of little 90kg me, please dont ask me to explain, i just know it works

I would say that your example there just highlights that strength and technique are not dependent on each other. He may have great bench and a great squat etc, but has he a good one leg take down?

OLDMAN1

yomchi wrote: »

I would say that your example there just highlights that strength and technique are not dependent on each other. He may have great bench and a great squat etc, but has he a good one leg take down?

thats a fair question and in my opinion, he does.

Barry.Oglesby

Niall Keane wrote: »

Barry, I enjoyed reading your question, I’ll return the favour by being as succinct and apt in my reply as possible.



No.



I don’t know, I know that a “shen-fa” a martial deportment can be developed by these exercises to become natural (internal) and that automatically protects them, although in the jump test it feels more like the diaphragm doing the work and it is certainly not the abs. Straining / forcing / over compression or tension of large muscle groups is a big taboo in Internal Arts, it makes recovery time, transformation from one technique to another slower, so force must be received on the go so as to speak without having to tense-up.

The reasoning behind the exercises / tests is to develop this martial ability, what the original design considerations were when inventing the sets is only communicated through Chinese medical terms which won’t help us understand them through modern medical science. Hence “the mysteries of nei-gung” They work and that’s why I practice them, I’m more into the result than the modern explanation or theory. All I can tell you is how it “feels”, like a patient would, I lack the medical expertise to communicate effectively any further than that, I’ve offered a few guesses. Apologies, as I am unable to be more helpful.

No that's fine Niall it's a good response. Have you ever felt curious enough to seek a scientific explanation as to why these things work?

I'm going to make a rough guess at the ladder jump thing if you don't mind. Bear in mind I'm not a mathematician, I'm just having a stab at this.

Assuming the man on the ladder is 80kg As far as my education goes that means massxgravity=80kg x 9.8m/s/s which gives you a total of 784N. I may be oversimplifying as I'm sure the dissipation of force across the feet matters too.

As far as I'm aware, car crashes at 30mph generate a force of about 10,000N on the driver. Granted this won't be directly on the abdominal wall, but it's an example of an extreme force on the human body. Personally, I've walked away from a 50mph impact with a bit of a sore neck and a wide eyed expression. I didn't have any ruptured internal organs though I did have a bit of bruise on my hip from the lap belt. I've also been kicked and punched very hard to the abdominal region, though I couldn't even make a stab at the forces exerted, it would surprise me if they were less than circa 800N based on my rudimentary understanding of physics.

I'm just saying that maybe this nei gung trick isn't all that extreme when the checks and balances are done.

Niall Keane

I would not recommend doing the jump test without the 100 day gung. Traditionally the test is carried out three times in a row on the tested. Ive never seen anyone get hurt from the test who's done the nei gung but i have witnessed and heard of many who've seriously damaged themselves trying to just do it. Your physics seems a bit lose, pressure would be more accurate a calc, also height of jump does make a difference, it would indeed be interesting to have an idea of the force/ pressure involved. It's been too long since I did physics in school. Interesting idea, appreciate th effort.

Ps I did my test with a gentleman of 125kg. But yes 80kg is a fine number and 1800mm a decent height though a Danish gentleman I lnow prefers 8ft 6" his gym has high ceilings. :-)

EnjoyChoke

Why is this test necessary?