ESB cutting off homes electricity

thisisadamh

Hi all. I have a topic that I would like to discuss.
In the news recently there have been stories about the esb cutting off homes electricity die to un-paid bills.
Now I think that electricity should be like water, free (up to a certain limit of course). I believe that in todays world electricity is something you need to survive, therefore everyone in Ireland should get a monthly quota for free.

What is everyone else's view on this?

Adam

liammur

I think i saw a thread about the esb already.

I don't think too many would say no to that.
The esb are certainly getting more militant and probably taking advantage of peoples' misfortunes.

FreudianSlippers

Water shouldn't be free either.

Zebra3

If people are spending money on drink and drugs, f&&k them.

If they are making genuine attempts to pay, give them a chance.

How to tell the difference? I've no idea.

LeinsterDub

We are struggling to keep up with demand for electric , give it away a lot of people would run their heating 24/7 or what have you.

cson

To be quite honest it's a poorly researched news story. There's a huge amount of unoccupied housing stock - in most cases these houses are connected to the ESB network thus even if you only had something like a connection charge it still goes unpaid thus the ESB cut off supply. There is no one living there in most cases.

And really, suggesting that electricity be free? I could be very cutting in my answer to that but I'll simply say that it is an absolute non runner. As per the rest of Europe we should have water charges here too - but they should be metered.

thisisadamh

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We are struggling to keep up with demand for electric , give it away a lot of people would run their heating 24/7 or what have you.

People would not be running their heating 24/7 because limits would be in place. What I am saying is that people will get a certain number of units per month for free. If they go over they will be charged.

liammur

cson wrote: »

To be quite honest it's a poorly researched news story. There's a huge amount of unoccupied housing stock - in most cases these houses are connected to the ESB network thus even if you only had something like a connection charge it still goes unpaid thus the ESB cut off supply. There is no one living there in most cases.

This thought occured to me too, however Bord Gais are also cutting off a big number, a few hundred a month.

Cookie_Monster

Its hard to have sympathy for people who refuse to pay. Those who can't is a lot greyer. Electricity, in my experience, is not a big bill, 50 quid a month. If you truly are in a bad situation you can cut it way back with ease also: don't use TV, turn lights off and so forth.

Cutting people off is a final step and they do try to setup payment plans with people first. What more can they do?

liammur

It's all relative, €50 to you may not be much, it might be to someone swamped with bills.
However, there must be massive desperation out there if people can't genuinely pay an esb bill

murphaph

Food is even more essential than ESB, but it's not free either!

The ESB have been to lax on non_payers for years. People take the p!ss (especially in rented accomodation).

Davidth88

Guys , did anyone else here on Newstalk Weds ? The guy in Newcastle Co Dublin who got a bill for over 2k ( estimated bills for 2 odd years )

They ( ESB ) basically demanded he settle it up in a short space of time , no excuses , or you get cut off .

Now not withstanding the guy should have queried the estimated bills ( not everyone is that on the ball ), pretty nasty episode.

LeinsterDub

Davidth88 wrote: »

Guys , did anyone else here on Newstalk Weds ? The guy in Newcastle Co Dublin who got a bill for over 2k ( estimated bills for 2 odd years )

They ( ESB ) basically demanded he settle it up in a short space of time , no excuses , or you get cut off .

Now not withstanding the guy should have queried the estimated bills ( not everyone is that on the ball ), pretty nasty episode.

Did he think electric was free for 2 years? If he paid it every 2nd month his bill would be far more manageable .

limklad

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Did he think electric was free for 2 years? If he paid it every 2nd month his bill would be far more manageable .

In Fairness, If the ESB is only getting to read his meter two years later then they should have their arses kicked for this.
I had the opposite situation, for 8 bills in a row I was getting high bills, I had already cut back on usage but still getting high bills. I looked at the previous Bills, and discovered that they were all estimated for three years. For years I usually get two or Three estimate reading on my bill until recent years. I read the meter and was shock that their reading was far higher. I rang up to complain.
She claimed that they had a guy out to read it last year. I had my previous years bills and ask her to clarify her comments, she repeat it again. I then told her I had the previous 5 years bills on my lap. The last actual reading according to their bill was three years. So told me That I was lying that she would report me. I asked her to do so, I also ask for the name of the Complaint department and for regulator That Over see the ESB. She tried to fob me off I repeated my demand. She hung up. Two Day later I had a knock on the Door and it was the meter man and he look complex and ask me did I tamper with the meter. I said no and went outside to look at it. It wasn't and then demanded why he accused me of Tampering with it. I had my mobile and rang the Guards. He back down on their arrival. I gave my statement to the guards and showed them the ESB statements and explained that I called the ESB about the Estimate bills and the False accusation of Tampering with the Meter. I wanted to Charge the ESB with Harassment and for False allegations. The Guards told the meter man to go away. I took several Photo's of the Meter box and gave the Guards copies as Tampering with ESB Meter is an offence. They agreed with me that it was not tampered with. Three Days later I got a revise bill (loads of credit, no instrest) and no apologies. :mad:

There is always an offence and the Customer is wrong, then it is fines and/or jail time, but when it is the other way around there is nothing.

liammur

I would tend to agree. ESB seem to have changed policy since competition has arrived in the market.

thisisadamh

limklad wrote: »

In Fairness, If the ESB is only getting to read his meter two years later then they should have their arses kicked for this.
I had the opposite situation, for 8 bills in a row I was getting high bills, I had already cut back on usage but still getting high bills. I looked at the previous Bills, and discovered that they were all estimated for three years. For years I usually get two or Three estimate reading on my bill until recent years. I read the meter and was shock that their reading was far higher. I rang up to complain.
She claimed that they had a guy out to read it last year. I had my previous years bills and ask her to clarify her comments, she repeat it again. I then told her I had the previous 5 years bills on my lap. The last actual reading according to their bill was three years. So told me That I was lying that she would report me. I asked her to do so, I also ask for the name of the Complaint department and for regulator That Over see the ESB. She tried to fob me off I repeated my demand. She hung up. Two Day later I had a knock on the Door and it was the meter man and he look complex and ask me did I tamper with the meter. I said no and went outside to look at it. It wasn't and then demanded why he accused me of Tampering with it. I had my mobile and rang the Guards. He back down on their arrival. I gave my statement to the guards and showed them the ESB statements and explained that I called the ESB about the Estimate bills and the False accusation of Tampering with the Meter. I wanted to Charge the ESB with Harassment and for False allegations. The Guards told the meter man to go away. I took several Photo's of the Meter box and gave the Guards copies as Tampering with ESB Meter is an offence. They agreed with me that it was not tampered with. Three Days later I got a revise bill (loads of credit, no instrest) and no apologies. :mad:

There is always an offence and the Customer is wrong, then it is fines and/or jail time, but when it is the other way around there is nothing.

I am glad my family moved to Bord Gais Energy!

DWCommuter

I am by no means the most politically correct of boards members, but I have to say that assumptions and stereotyping do little to address the OPs topic.

It is very true that traditionally the ESB have been patient in terms of terminating service, when one compares them to Eircom or SKY Digital. So yes they do seem to have a semblence of respect to the fact that electricity is a far greater necessity than a phone/internet or TV service. However...

I do find the immediate assumption that those cut off are taking the piss or refusing to pay, a little on the unfair side of obvious assumptions, because I have personally witnessed the ESB taking a heavy handed approach in terms of disconnections. I agree that they do assist those who wish to put an "arragement" in place, but they also demand unrealistic arrangements when doing so. Perhaps this is as a result of competition. But by no means are all people cut off, the type that are taking the piss or refusing to pay. There are genuine people in genuine trouble cut off due to a variety of factors such as being unaware of "arrangements" and the well known aspect of "burying the head in the sand". I agree that the cost of electricity (when you think of what you get) is reletively low. But bills of in excess of €300 per two month cycle are commonplace in some households and that is not because of innefficient use of supply. It is the reality of a large household with standard appliances. €50 per month to one household could be very easily €150 per month to another.

Should units be offered free to all? Technically I think so. Just as water should be free. But, because of a perceived low tax economy in the good times, we now face the reality of a stealth tax economy in the bad times. Electricity was always something we paid for in full, because its a fairly recent facility and required substantial investment by the state to deliver it to every home and business etc. But in saying that, the field of play has changed somewhat and nowadays electricity is not viewed as a new invention, but an absolute neccesity to everyday life. I don't think society has taken account of that. Water and refuse collection is proof that we are prepared to charge for everything as a result of our tax take not being able to cover the cost (even in boom times) of domestic services. Aside from water and refuse, we have always paid for electricity, but I personally think the the "neccessity" value of it has changed the playing field. Its as vital to our lives as water. A re-evaluation may not be a bad idea.

LeinsterDub

DWCommuter wrote: »

Just as water should be free.

Why should it be free? Water costs money to come from the river or what ever to your tap .

DWCommuter wrote: »

Water and refuse collection is proof that we are prepared to charge for everything as a result of our tax take not being able to cover the cost (even in boom times) of domestic services. Aside from water and refuse, we have always paid for electricity, but I personally think the the "neccessity" value of it has changed the playing field. Its as vital to our lives as water. A re-evaluation may not be a bad idea.

Water charges and refuses charges is about changing behavour as much as about collecting tax income.

Food is vital for live to. Can I can €200 to going to a fancy restaurant ?

Cool Mo D

Do the ESB not install coin or token operated pay-as-you go meters for those who fall behind at all?

DWCommuter

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why should it be free? Water costs money to come from the river or what ever to your tap .

Water charges and refuses charges is about changing behavour as much as about collecting tax income.

Food is vital for live to. Can I can €200 to going to a fancy restaurant ?

Sevices like water etc. are supposed to be paid for out of our income tax. But in our quest to become a low tax economy, we now find ourselves having to charge for it to recoup cash.

Similarly refuse charges and the earlier attempt at water charges (early 1990s) were introduced at a time when the tax take was low and the state needed more money in the bank. The change of behaviour that you refer to is a lot easier for a younger generation born into a double taxation culture. But there are many out there who remember when refuse collections were financed by income tax via local councils, along with A+Es etc.

Furthermore electricity is not the luxury it was in 1920s Ireland. A basic house in 2010 cannot function without it. Its importance to our lives is extremely vital.

But of course you are entitled to hold the view that water should be charged for, but this brings us back to the old question; If we are charging for water, refuse collections, hospital care etc. where is the income tax going to?

DWCommuter

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Do the ESB not install coin or token operated pay-as-you go meters for those who fall behind at all?

I havent a clue if these things still exist. I remember them though when I was a lot younger in the mid 70s. But in fairness to the ESB, they do negociate more with customers. Its just that Ive noticed a more hardcore approach of late. I've had one experience of being disconnected and it highlights the size of a bill before they disconnect supply.

I bought my house in 2002. I changed over the utilities to my name. However, the bill for the previous occupants (who were renting) kept coming in the door. I rang the ESB and the said they'd deal with it, but they didn't. Eventually the previous occupants bill (and I'm assuming it contained my first bill) reached just under €800. Another call made as I hadn't received a bill in my name. The ESB said they'd sort it out. I came home from work one night and it had been disconnected! I had it reconnected within an hour and lots of apologies etc, but it highlights how high they let a bill go before disconnection.

BluntGuy

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Food is vital for live to. Can I can €200 to going to a fancy restaurant ?

You're not comparing like with like. The point was free water units should be provided, not free wine, or whatever liquid substance of your choice.

I don't believe water and electricity should be privatised. Some industries are suited to "competition", particularly electricity. The private sector isn't the magical cure for all our problems.

murphaph

This whole thing about getting estimated bills can be sorted easily by READING THE METER YOURSELF every few months and just letting the ESB know. They'll send an accurate bill out within a couple of days and you know you're all square. Have had to do this many times for various reasons.

In other areas I have found the ESB to be total muppets sometimes (changing the name on a bill, over the phone, with no confirmation in writing to the previous recipient etc-commercial property stuff).

JohnC.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Sevices like water etc. are supposed to be paid for out of our income tax.

Is it? I thought income tax goes to the government and water is taken care of by the local council rather than government?

DWCommuter

Kahless wrote: »

Is it? I thought income tax goes to the government and water is taken care of by the local council rather than government?

All income tax goes to the exchequer who then dishes it out to where its needed. Local councils receive their share on top of monies they raise themselves via levies and road tax etc.

Zen65

BluntGuy wrote: »

I don't believe water and electricity should be privatised. Some industries are suited to "competition", particularly electricity. The private sector isn't the magical cure for all our problems.

There are many private water schemes in operation across the country.

Of course electricity already has been privatised. Most of the electricity generated in Ireland comes from private generators. ESB itself acts as a private company because although it is state-owned it is not, and never was state-funded i.e. it operates on an entirely commercial basis.

Should there be free electricity? Who would pay for it? Government? That would be a hefty tax increase for everybody.

Z

Zen65

liammur wrote: »

ESB seem to have changed policy since competition has arrived in the market.

Competition arrived years ago. It is likely that the current stories in the media arise because with the loss of jobs at the moment there is an increase in the default rate on electricity bills. But disconnections for not paying electricity bills (or gas bills, or NTL or Sky) have been going on since these companies started, it's a normal event in any society.

I know only two families who were disconnected by ESB, and in both cases they had simply been holding out because they believed they would not be disconnected. I don't mean to suggest that this is always the issue, but isn't it a bit strange how 99% of disconnections get reconnected in 24 hours?

Cheers,

Z

liammur

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Why should it be free? Water costs money to come from the river or what ever to your tap .

Water charges and refuses charges is about changing behavour as much as about collecting tax income.

Food is vital for live to. Can I can €200 to going to a fancy restaurant ?

Water should indeed be free, until it is of a high enough standard whereby we can drink it without the fear of crytosporidium, high levels of lead, etc.

Altreab

Listening to him on a radio program what he said happened was as follows.
1) He had been getting estimates for the last 2 years and had always paid them on time. He was self employed at this time. He went out of business a few months ago.

2) A month or so ago the meter had been read and he got a bill for about€2200 euro. He checked that that was correct and it was.

3) He contacted the ESB immediately to arrange a way to repay the money. They wanted the whole amount within 2 weeks at first. Then agreeded that he would pay half and continue clearing the remainder of the debt. He paid off the €1100 as agreed. And started repaying at a rate of €50 a week from his €196 Unemployment allowance which he recently started getting. He has the receipts to show he did make the payments.

4) The ESB started demanding the balance of the debt on threat of disconnection. Despite been shown that he has been making weekly repayments since the inital agreement. They Sent out a ESB employee to consult with him on a repayment schedule. What that was as far as the ESB was concerened was the immediate payment of the remaining debt. Oh and despite it been the ESB insisting that they send the guy out they added an additional €97 euro to the bill to cover their costs.

5) After he protested they agreed to restore his electricity and to review the situation in a few weeks time. The ESB has not with drawn the demand for full repayment as of yet, just that they will review in a few weeks time.
In the meantime the man will continue to make €50 a week repayments from his €196 a week dole.

I really hope it works out for him. He has always made an effort to repay and has at no time shirked his responsibilities. He is also seperated and is afraid of losing the right to see his children if he is cut off.

That is the situation as i can remember it, I was driving at the time so may have missed some details. Any corrections welcomed

liammur

Altreab wrote: »

I really hope it works out for him.

Agreed.
Let's hope the ESB, banks and others show compassion to people when they are down.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

Water should indeed be free

How can it be free? It costs money to collect it, purify it and distribute it to people's homes. Do you mean free at the point of delivery, but paid for by "someone else"?

I think people would value what a precious resource water actually is if it were metered, like most Western European nations. Just like bin collections shouldn't be "free", neither should water.

liammur

I would agree a certain % of people don't value water. Improve the quality, get in the meters and I'm all for it. However, I buy my water now because I deem it to be substandard.

LeinsterDub

BluntGuy wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like. The point was free water units should be provided, not free wine, or whatever liquid substance of your choice.

I don't believe water and electricity should be privatised. Some industries are suited to "competition", particularly electricity. The private sector isn't the magical cure for all our problems.

OK i was being factious. If we make electric free then why isn't a loaf of bread free. Bread is more vital than electric

moceri

Generation could be privatized but not the National Grid. This Government will surely balls it up like they did with the TELECOM EIREANN privatization.

Stark

liammur wrote: »

I would agree a certain % of people don't value water. Improve the quality, get in the meters and I'm all for it. However, I buy my water now because I deem it to be substandard.

The quality standards for tap water are a lot higher than for bottled water.

SeanW

Part of the reason, I think, that people are being cut off from electricity, is that it's too damn expensive. Stop subsidising madness like wind farms, industrial peat cutting and the esb unions, cut electricity rates and you'll have less people suffering electricity poverty.

Heroditas

moceri wrote: »

Generation could be privatized but not the National Grid. This Government will surely balls it up like they did with the TELECOM EIREANN privatization.

It has been privatised to a certain extent.
Huntstown is owned by Viridian and Endesa bought two of the ESB power plants and are going to renovate them.
Quinn was going to build a power plant but we all know what happened him!
Many of the wind farms are privately owned and are in power purchase agreements with the energy supply companies.

Government have realized it would be suicide to sell the grid. The grid was privatised years ago in NI and has suffered from a serious lack of investment.
The grid suffered from neglect in RoI for years too but that had the effect of keeping prices down and amongst the cheapest in Europe.
Introducing competition has meant that prices have risen because the ESB had their prices set high so competitors would be attracted into the market and would peg a couple of % below the PES price.

One could formulate quite a strong argument that competition and privatization are two of the biggest factors that have led to higher electricity prices in this country.

dowlingm

Water might be "free", but the shocking state of "free" water in places like Galway got pretty expensive. Imposing a water charge BUT having that levied by a Water Board - NOT a county council - is vital to have proper planning and accountability for maintenance, while central government should continue to co-fund strategic infrastructure.

If you want free water, do what my granny does for her washing. Put out a rain barrel. Ability to pay should not be a Water Board issue, or indeed an ESB one - they are not social welfare agencies. The Social Welfare offices are responsible for hardship cases. At most, the ESB and Water Board should advise the Social Welfare when a final notice is issued so that the Social can ask the householders if they wish to apply for some form of hardship relief.

Mike 1972

In the old (East) German Democratic Republic electricity was practically free (or at least heavily subsidised and included with ones rent). It (among other things) was credited with effectively bankrupting the country.

galwayrush

Stark wrote: »

The quality standards for tap water are a lot higher than for bottled water.

A lot of people in Galway would disagree with that.:rolleyes:

Stark

Having something fail quality standards doesn't change the nature of those standards.

charlemont

If anyone is finding it hard to pay their bills then all they have to do is pick up the phone, have their present meter reading, bank details for direct debit and switch over to an alternative electricity supplier and put the previous bills where they belong...:)

Mike 1972

Stark wrote: »

Having something fail quality standards doesn't change the nature of those standards.

Nope but if its happening pretty consistently with damn all being done about it those "standards" are rendered pretty worthless.

Priori

liammur wrote: »

ESB seem to have changed policy since competition has arrived in the market.

See the following video. Worth a watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug969WSniY0

Worztron

No household should be left without electricity if they genuinely cannot pay their electricity bill. There is a big difference between wont and cant pay.
If prisoners were denied electricity, they'd say their human rights were being denied so why should an innocent citizen be denied.
Electricity in this modern age is a necessity. Shame on the ESB. It is also a disgrace that the head of the ESB is being paid €750,000 per year (a good example of cronyism and jobs for the boys).

Zen65

moceri wrote: »

Generation could be privatized but not the National Grid. This Government will surely balls it up like they did with the TELECOM EIREANN privatization.

I'm fairly certain that generation of electricity is fully open to competition. At least 50% of all the electricity Ireland is produced privately.

Z

Zen65

Worztron wrote: »

No household should be left without electricity if they genuinely cannot pay their electricity bill. There is a big difference between wont and cant pay.

I agree fully. The Dept of Social Welfare can provide free electricity allowances to anyone who falls into the category of "can't pay". It is not the role of electricity companies to pay these allowances.

Worztron wrote: »

If prisoners were denied electricity, they'd say their human rights were being denied so why should an innocent citizen be denied.

That's a peculiar argument. Prisoners receive free accommodation, food, water, clothing and energy for heating and lighting. There are also arrangements in place to provide support for the poorest in the country to acquire accommodation, food, electricity/fuel, etc through the Dept of Social Welfare.

However, since all of these supports (to prisoners, to unemployed, to low-paid, etc) are ultimately paid for by the taxpayer there must be a limit to how much support is available. If people exceed their allowances and are unable to pay their bills, they must take responsibility for that.

Worztron wrote: »

It is also a disgrace that the head of the ESB is being paid €750,000 per year (a good example of cronyism and jobs for the boys).

Hmm, this is a fair comment but this argument is a red herring in the context of disconnections. ESB is run as a private company (it is state-owned, but not state-funded) and it is has been profitable up to now. In order to get the best results it is arguable that they must pay the market rate for a CEO. While I agree that €750k is a mad amount to pay anyone for running a company, I would not single out ESB nor any individual CEO to point the finger at.

The CEO of a company does not cough up the investment to fund the company's ventures. He/she takes only a moderate personal risk in running the company (although he/she is at the mercy of shareholders who can be fickle) so exorbitant salaries such as the banks etc have been paying out is really unjustified. Worse again the bonuses which focus on short-term gain by the company (or on short-term indicators of gain such as the volume of loans) really encourage deplorable risk-taking by these executives, with the results which we have all seen and are now suffering from.

Be at peace,

Z

dowlingm

+1. There are ways to help customers in need whether through negotiated schedules, MABS etc. but ESB are not a social service - Social Welfare is.