PUBS and sky sports -- Alternative ??

mattman

I see loads of pubs now getting in "other" sat. systems.

Why? Because its 80 euro a WEEK for the basic package from sky, with the smallest rural pub...

What a rip off.

I see now in carlow/kilkenny/dublin pubs have matches on and can tell sky inspector to Pi** off. Which is great. And its cheaper.

What is this system does anyone know? al jazeera ? nova sports ?
Its a matter have to I think.

Anyone at home get such a system in? sky is to expensive for the house anyway, i got it out a few months ago, way paying 76 euro ish a month.
got the HD freeview in. installed it myself! 140 euro.

Mattman.

ps: if you work it out thats an extra 430 euro turn over for a bog standard turn over .

pps: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/fears-for-rural-pubs-as-over-1000-fail-to-renew-licences-2302980.html

Tony

mattman wrote: »

What a rip off.

The pub or sky?

STB

Hmmm its taking a chance territory.

AFAIK it is illegal to commercially show Sports that Sky have the rights to in Ireland unless it is another service that Sky have received money from to allow carriage (ie UPC).

I agree that the commercial licence is a mad amount of money and belongs in the tiger days. It is effectively a ransom given the monopoly held on rights by Sky outside those that are opened to terrestrial TV.

I recently by chance was in a pub in Dublin City Centre and they had just got in one of these alternative installs. Whilst it may be okay for a residential customer I dont think Sky Ireland would take very kindly to walking into a pub particularly during a 3 o clock game which is apparently the ultimate sin. The barowner in question didnt actually know that it was illegal and copyright infrigement but could no longer justify the money difference.

The other thing is that some sat installers know what they are doing and are aware of how illegal it is. In this particular case the service was Sky Italia, a fantastic package and a snip at €8/900.

And yes I actually may have remembered the company that installed it and couldnt believe the install price (it was a multiple of the cost of the 12 month card).

I wonder if there have been any successful prosecutions. Between UPC prices and Sky there is not much difference and struggling bar owners must feel they are dealing with monoplies, who may not even pay tax within the country.

Zardoz

Its a very grey area.
There is supposed to be a tv without frontiers directive but Sky are using alot of muscle and influence .
The much awaited European decision in the Karen Murphy case is not likely to be until Spring 2011. As Sky and the FA have sort of suspended prosecution of those using cards of other providers in the European Union to show thePremiership, it seems somewhat safe to use such cards to show Premiership at least until then.

And yes I actually may have remembered the company that installed it and couldnt believe the install price (it was a multiple of the cost of the 12 month card).

Thats just plain ridiculous ,Sky Italy is a basic install as its on Hotbird ,should only cost a few hundred for installation .

watty

STB wrote: »

Hmmm its taking a chance territory.

AFAIK it is illegal to commercially show Sports that Sky have the rights to in Ireland unless it is another service that Sky have received money from to allow carriage (ie UPC).

Anything Public has different rules to someone at home. At home as long as you are not hacking encryption, card sharing etc but that it's a valid subscription someplace you are OK.

But Hotel bedrooms, Public places, pubs etc need all kinds of additional licences and can only avail of a local commercial subscription. They are committing fraud using a domestic subscription, no matter if it is for Ireland, Italy or Albania.

STB

Except when it comes to the commercial showing of FTA, Watty. Of course there is no commercial TV Lic (I dont want to spell the whole word in case we get descended upon) or tie this in.

Zardoz wrote:

Thats just plain ridiculous ,Sky Italy is a basic install as its on Hotbird ,should only cost a few hundred for installation .

I know ! I also saw a quote for an FTA, was 1k excluding vat! 2tvs ! Couldnt believe it. Didnt comment on it to the owner, not my business. Handy money if you can get it.

Yeah, that case I wasnt actually aware of it. It is refering to EU stations rather than non-EU stations for which there can be no excuse within pubs. http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news.ma/article/87787?N=598291&PagingData=Po_0~Ps_10~Psd_Asc

Zardoz

STB wrote: »

I know ! I also saw a quote for an FTA, was 1k excluding vat! 2tvs ! Couldnt believe it. Didnt comment on it to the owner, not my business. Handy money if you can get it.

Jaysus thats nuts.
You should have told them youd do it for half that and make a few soft bob.:D
There seem to be alot of technically ignorant people out there who will believe any nonsense.

Cantona's Collars

The law regarding the showing of 3pm games in the UK is different to here-we are not governed by UK law so nothing Sky can do to stop an Irish pub showing football from a foreign provider so long as it's not advertised as being Sky.They can take action if a pub is using a residential contract for the pub i.e not having the pint glass on the bottom right of the screen to show it's a commercial contract.

STB

Is that not EU wide on the back of FIFA/UEFA decision for closed games?

Commercially with a Sky Italia residential card sign up ?

I am sure you cant use a residential licence in a commercial premises regardless of the origin of the station within the EU or perhaps that is the challenge being made in the Karen Murphy case.

I think this may be the selling point being used by dodgy installers. An in between price without signing up to resdential sub in Ireland.

Zardoz

STB wrote: »

It is refering to EU stations rather than non-EU stations for which there can be no excuse within pubs. http://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/news.ma/article/87787?N=598291&PagingData=Po_0~Ps_10~Psd_Asc

That guy is talking through his arse ,he has obviously been paid off by Uncle Rupert.

STB

Did BSky and ESPN retain the rights for 2010/11 and 2011/12 for Ireland ?

Where they agreed ?

I presume PPI/IMRO just pursue their own cash for performance rights.

Hmmmmm.

watty

Zardoz wrote: »

I
There is supposed to be a tv without frontiers directive but Sky are using alot of muscle and influence .

The TV without Frontiers may only apply to personal/Home use?

A Sky Italia sub, or ANY sub would need to be a Commercial one, not a residential one, or else that is fraud. No matter what country it's used in or bought from.

snaps

We all have to remember that the Laws here are completely different than the UK. As far i am concerned an EU subscription is much safer than a non EU subscription to be shown.

Also as far as SKY Ireland here, they are technically a foreign broadcaster as they are a UK company and pay UK tax.

Have there actually been any cases here in Ireland regarding pubs being fined/prosecuted for showing non Sky UK/Ireland channels?

I know in the UK this has happened.

My local "Rural" pub is paying near 160€ a week for racing and sports and the landlord says if he gets rid of the racing channels war would break out from the customers who come in for pints and bets.

That 160€ a week has cost a part time job in my pub, where the landlord had to cut back and the only way of saving 160€ was by getting rid of a part timer.

Personaly i think an EU sub would be a safe bet. See what happens, im sure that to start with it would be a warning (Not a straight prosecution).

Sky UK are getting more and more greedy now, The only way they will stop putting prices up and fleecing us if we stop paying and cancel our subs.

I haven't had Sky in for 4 years now, ive found alternatives and the only sport i'm missing is cricket. But luckily Channel five have the highlights, so not all lost.

Tony

I find it ironic that terms like monopoly and rip off are used in relation to sky in pubs. Pubs themselves have been guilty of some of the same practices and are not subject to the same competition as other businesses. A case of the biter bitten perhaps? Guess its a debate for another forum, sorry for the slightly off topic post.

Cantona's Collars

Something similar on pub rip-offs here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055967491
Back on topic,Sky have little or no juristiction here and all they control are the pubs paying their subs so if a premises has Sky Italia or Tring there's feck all Sky can do.
Heard of a similar case to the Murphy one in the UK where the judge sided with the pub owner as they weren't advertising having Sky in the premises and were using a foreign sub-Sky quickly got that loophole closed.
If I had a pub with a foreign sub showing Prem Lge. and a Sky rep called to check up all I have to say was I didn't have Sky and it was none of his business,they just call to make sure your paying a commercial rate for Sky.

watty

Sky Italia can disable card if it's a residential sub misused, or contravening their T&C. Possibly even sue for difference in price.

mattman

Thanks all great info there. I know loads of pubs now with the 3pm games and few other games. These are coming in via. AL Jazeera, nova sports, or others such a sky Italy. And loads are getting it in this season, just because its not possible to pay 80 Euro a week + just for TV. Its crazy. But they are paying a commercial subscription to such company’s at a lot less.

Loads of Dublin pubs have such a system in for years, so it MUST be legal. Always remember UK is a foreign country and it has no legal rights unless you get a sky box and show sky sports Thur a house subscription . You can use a different system it would seem and tell the sky guy to Pis* off.

I think its a matter of either get some alternative to sky or stop showing sports all together, which means customer loss etc, in a time where 1000 pubs closed last year and a further 560 have 6 weeks to renew by September, and a loss of estimated 40,000 jobs (source Irish independent Tue 18th I think).

Sky are trying bullying tactics. Even a home subscription is now over 700 euro + a year with sports and movies, of which you have seen most movies already, and for the sake of 1 or 2 matches a week??

Time to look else where I think.

Good link...

http://liveonsat.com/daily.php

byte

Of all the pubs getting foreign subs, how many would actually be getting commercial subs?

And, how many would actually be using EU providers (Is Albania in the EU yet?). Al Jazeera surely isn't aimed at Europeans anyway (though a fine package for home use it must be said:)).

icdg

zerks wrote: »

The law regarding the showing of 3pm games in the UK is different to here-we are not governed by UK law so nothing Sky can do to stop an Irish pub showing football from a foreign provider so long as it's not advertised as being Sky.They can take action if a pub is using a residential contract for the pub i.e not having the pint glass on the bottom right of the screen to show it's a commercial contract.

Sky might not be able to do something about this. But Setanta might, because they hold the live rights to 3pm games in this jurisdiction. By showing these games the pubs are infringing on Setanta's broadcast rights.

There is a case in England and Wales currently going on, Murphy v Media Protection Services where an appeal by way of case stated has been taken to the High Court regarding a conviction in the Magistrate's Court (the equivilant of the District Court) against Ms Karen Murphy, a pub landlord, of dishonestly receiving a broadcast service with intent to avoid payment of a charge. The Court has made an Article 267 reference to the European Court of Justice which has not yet ruled. It should be noted that while English law doesn't apply here, the decisions of the English courts are regarded as of "pursaisive influence" here and the decisions of the ECJ **are** binding here.

Its an interesting topic. The EU treaties guarentee freedom of movement for goods and services. Television is a service like any other. So arguably there should be no restriction against receiving these services here. But if this was taken to its logical conclusion, the market for sports rights could be destroyed. Arguably the likes of RTÉ would never be able to bid for sports rights on their own if the EU became a single market for sporting rights.

As an aside, I'm not sure it is even specifically against the law in the UK. I think it is more a Football Association policy decision not to allow the Premier League (in which it has a golden share) to sell the rights to 3pm games in order to protect the lower leagues.

By the way the charter of this board prohibits discussion of how to recieve subscription services which are not based in the United Kingdom or Republic of Ireland. I'm happy to leave this thread open so long as the actual mechanics of how to receive these services are not discussed. If you're not happy with this, Foreign Satellite is nearby...

STB

icdg wrote: »

Sky might not be able to do something about this. But Setanta might, because they hold the live rights to 3pm games in this jurisdiction. By showing these games the pubs are infringing on Setanta's broadcast rights.

I dont believe they do. EPSN and Sky bought them up for last season in Ireland. I have yet to see anything to confirm that they did the same or 2010/11 2011/12 seasons.

Your absolutely spot on that the Premier league 3pm protection is to stop gate numbers falling.

icdg

STB wrote: »

I dont believe they do. EPSN and Sky bought them up for last season in Ireland. I have yet to see anything to confirm that they did the same or 2010/11 2011/12 seasons.

Well I just watched Arsenal v Blackpool on Setanta Ireland, I regard that as confirmation enough!!!!

Setanta have had the rights to 3pm games in Ireland since 2007 and RTÉ had them before that. While there is nothing to stop Sky or ESPN from obtaining this package they would need to set up an ROI opt-out or otherwise block their signal from being available to UK viewers for this package. The package is for 33 3pm matches in the Republic of Ireland only.

Sky and ESPN hold "mirror" rights to their UK packages here - supposedly these are meant to be sold seperately from the equivilant UK packages but the fact that the equivilant UK broadcaster has always held the equiviant ROI package lends the suspicision that this is not exactly the case...

Cantona's Collars

Setanta have the rights for those games for next 3 seasons this one inclusive.Not sure what their stance would be regarding pubs using foreign subs to obtain live EPL coverage at a reduced cost.I can see a lot more premises going the route of obtaining a foreign sub if margins are being squeezed.
Just look at any pub across the tourist resorts in the med etc.The live sport is a huge draw and they use coverage from wherever they can get it.How may times have you went to an Irish bar in Spain or elsewhere to watch GAA live on RTE? Pub owners here would have a huge draw if they had a choice of games airing on a Saturday.

STB

I had read this and figured that there was no money there to bid (but! I was wrong).... they had money for the 3pm's. Mea culpa.

ESPN get 2009/10 Republic of Ireland rights

The Premier League have sold the live Republic of Ireland broadcast rights formerly held by Setanta.‪‪

ESPN has been awarded two packages of rights containing a total of 46 matches that were available for season 2009/10. These rights are for the same matches that ESPN will broadcast in the UK.
The other four packages for season 2009/10, containing 92 matches, remain under contract with BSkyB.

extremely pleased
Premier League Chief Executive, Richard Scudamore, said: "The Premier League is extremely pleased that ESPN has invested in our broadcast rights for the Republic of Ireland.
"They have a formidable worldwide reputation and we have great confidence in their ability to provide football fans with first rate coverage and programming."
The auction for Premier League broadcast rights in the Republic of Ireland for live Saturday 3pm fixtures in season 2009/10 will take place in the coming weeks. The auction process for seasons 2010/11 to 2012/13 will take place later this year.

And thats all I knew. I presumed that Setanta hadnt got the cash! I see now they did find the cash!

Setanta Sports have obtained the Irish rights to broadcast live coverage of 33 Barclays Premier League games for each of the next three seasons. The games will now broadcast exclusively live on Setanta Sports in the Republic of Ireland at 3pm on Saturday afternoons during the 2010, 2011 and 2012

[http://www.setanta.com/ie/Customer-Info-Articles/Setanta-Wins-Barclays-Premier-League-Rights-For-Next-Three-Seasons/gnid-59300/

STB

This is from an installers page!

Sky Italia - The Law

The issue of receiving live satellite TV sports transmissions in the UK from different sources within the European Union such as Sky Italia will be resolved in the European courts, it has been indicated that providing you are receiving satellite TV broadcasts using an officially paid for EEC subscription package this will entitle you to view this package anywhere within the EEC. It was also indicated that until the issue is resolved there must be no more harassment to publicans, managers or anybody involved within the pub and club trade regarding the reception of these satellite TV sports systems, the European courts decision on this matter will not be decided on until next year and whatever the decision there will most definitely be an appeal which will then roll on to the following year.
Please note certain television company representatives are going around the pub and club industry wrongfully saying that these European sports systems such as Sky Italia are not legal but if you challenge these reps to put this in writing on their official company headed paper, you will definitely find a negative response from them, just to confirm our statement, please view the official EEC directive on television without frontiers on http://ec.europa.eu/avpolicy/reg/avms/index_en.htm and maybe print a copy to give to the next TV company rep who comes on your premises and tries to tell you that anything but their system is illegal.


Souce: http://www.essexaerials.org.uk/sky-italia.html

"A statement from Sky Italia in June said it was aware of “unscrupulous dealers” selling Sky Italia cards to UK pubs ” in contravention of the terms of use”. The broadcaster warned it would “terminate viewing without warning”.

watty

"Seek legal advice from a qualified expert"
But it's my understanding only private individuals, not public venues are entitled to many of these packages. Don't you imagine Sky Italia charges Pubs in Italy more?

Tony

watty wrote: »

"Seek legal advice from a qualified expert"
But it's my understanding only private individuals, not public venues are entitled to many of these packages. Don't you imagine Sky Italia charges Pubs in Italy more?

I agree, I wonder though if the EU ruling goes the way kindly referenced by STB would it then force Sky Italia and others to make commercial packages available throughout the EU ? My thinking is that it would be hard to prosecute a pub for using a private package whan no commercial package was available to them.

Cantona's Collars

Was in a pub in Dublin recently and they had Cyfra+, Sky Italia,Al Jazeera and more showing live sport on various screens,the place was packed with customers of every nationality watching football.It seems the law here is slightly different than the UK, Sky have a stranglehold on what can be shown in pubs over there but different story over here.Enforcement it seems is less of an issue here in Ireland.
Anyway,if you're a football fan where would you rather have a pint? A pub showing 1 game or a choice of several-I know where I'd head.

STB

Tony wrote: »

I agree, I wonder though if the EU ruling goes the way kindly referenced by STB would it then force Sky Italia and others to make commercial packages available throughout the EU ? My thinking is that it would be hard to prosecute a pub for using a private package whan no commercial package was available to them.

Not every country has the pub culture that we and our neighbours have Watty! Perhaps its not as aggresively enforced with our European compatriats as a result and a sub is just that? IMRO is just public performance for which many buisnesses (including the small neighbouhood barber shops) are pestered even its just a radio in the background for sanity. I have no time for this yupe of harrassment to be honest but its the law.

Tony, it would seem to me that a lot of installers are openly selling these pub packages including southern sat, marconi and the likes (GOOGLE have plenty of links that say as such). I am sure they wouldnt leave themselves open to litigation. From what I have read its fairly open season until the outcome of that Murphy case is heard and any subsequent appeals which pay take years (mind you I am no legal eagle). And that may be the reason that some installers seem to have taken a view and are openly doing these installs in Dublin.

Sky need to recognise what a common market is. I, for one hope they get a kick up the arse. Its ridiculous what the man on the street has to pay for footballers wages be it in the pub or at home. They have been ripping people off for years and bidding people out of the market so that they call the tune.

Whatever about Al Jazeera etc, I hope the courts do the right thing and respect TVWF(AVMS as its now called) and free trade within the EU.

Tony

STB wrote: »

Tony, it would seem to me that a lot of installers are openly selling these pub packages including southern sat, marconi and the likes (I have plenty of links that say as such). I am sure they wouldnt leave themselves open to litigation.

Well given the history of bending the rules here I think they are just firing ahead regardless although there does seem to be a consensus that nothing is coming down the pipe on the legal front.

It took sky a long time to prosecute pirate card suplliers here many years ago and in one case they had to go to appeal. Theres also the strong publicians political lobby which sky may fear.

Am I right in thinking that it would have to be the premier league themselves who take action?

STB

Yes there are plenty of lobby groups in the UK alright.

I dont own a pub. I dont install dishes. I have only read up on this having heard the amounts of money that Sky can demand for comercial use. Coincidentally, UPC quote similar amounts. So two options in a so called open market. I dont think that will wash in Europe.

I am open to corrrection but the likes of MPS would have no jurisdiction here as far as I know. Hers one of those UK lobby group who seem to be active in this area.

http://www.thepublican.com/story.asp?storycode=67232

Whatver about the late great Chris "Harry" Carey apparently selling dodgy cards, I personally respect the free market economy and others need to too when it comes to the use of legit cards bought as you could any product within Europe. I am sure that Mr Murdoch cant demand the money through his associated and related companies in certain countries as he would be told what todo with himself. I suspect that no commercial use market exists to the extent that they do with our cultures off European mainland.

denis1501

Very interesting thread!
Sky Italia charges €149 a month for pubs subscribing to the Sport HD pack.
regards
D.