Irish rail - standing room only!

foggy_lad

Is it safe to have up to 90 people standing on a 3 car intercity train from waterford to heuston? I went to get the 12.16 train today but it was packed to the roof after coming from waterford. Also the wheelchair accessible door into the waiting area was locked yet again even though there was a woman in wheelchair waiting on the train! Also the platform sign is only in English on the Dublin platform in Carlow!

Is this level of overcrowding on a train allowed though as there are no grab rails or places for people to stand like there is on Dublin busses or on commuter trains? I would imagine for health and safety reasons the majority of passengers should be seated? There is Also the issue of accommodation for the two wheelchair passengers on this train who will find it almost impossible to use the toilets if they need to due to the passageways and train carriages being jam packed with people standing!

Does anyone know of any regulations allowing or forbidding having so many standing on this train? Surely the staff in waterford would have known the loading and should have put on an extra train??

Cookie_Monster

Would you rather have been told that the train is full and you ahve to wait for the next one?

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also the platform sign is only in English on the Dublin platform in Carlow!

Good!

highlydebased

I'm sure the 22000 is rated (like all trains) to carry a certain standing capacity, but to be honest, its not suitable to have any standing on it really, given that indeed there is no space to stand generally and are no grab rails at all.

mickydoomsux

It is very regrettable that the trian was so busy and no-one should really have to stand after paying good money for their ticket.

The problem is that today that train was packed and tomorrow or yesterday it may have been half empty. The sets that are used are usually tailored to the expected passenger numbers for that particular running based on past experience. Sometimes it ends up in a situation like this, unfortunately.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Would you rather have been told that the train is full and you ahve to wait for the next one?

To answer this, I would expect Irish rail to send another train immediately as there are several lying idle in waterford and lots of staff with not much to do. And I would surely be entitled to a full refund of ticket price due to this useless company not being able to accommodate me.

On that point I wonder is it the case that those forced to stand can seek refunds from Irish rail because they paid for a seat which was not supplied?

Like many people will be doing tomorrow I got a refund and got the bus!

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

To answer this, I would expect Irish rail to send another train immediately as there are several lying idle in waterford and lots of staff with not much to do.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from but it's just not true.

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

To answer this, I would expect Irish rail to send another train immediately as there are several lying idle in waterford

You are presumably referring to the Mark 3 stock stored in Waterford. None of those trains are in a serviceable condition and would require a substantial refurbishment to re-enter service.

foggy_lad wrote: »

and lots of staff with not much to do.

How do you know that there are spare drivers and qualified guards available?

foggy_lad wrote: »

And I would surely be entitled to a full refund of ticket price due to this useless company not being able to accommodate me.

On that point I wonder is it the case that those forced to stand can seek refunds from Irish rail because they paid for a seat which was not supplied?

Like many people will be doing tomorrow I got a refund and got the bus!

A common misconception - unless you have a seat reservation a train ticket is not a guarantee of a seat on either Intercity or Commuter services. No railway company anywhere guarantees you a seat. It is a ticket to travel, and you may have to stand.

90 people standing in a 3-car 22000 (while far from ideal) would be within safety guidelines. It is ultimately up to the onboard crew as to whether the numbers are that great to make the train a safety hazard.

Cuddlesworth

foggy_lad wrote: »

On that point I wonder is it the case that those forced to stand can seek refunds from Irish rail because they paid for a seat which was not supplied?

I have been a a few busy trains. You paid to get to your destination. Not for a seat. Irish Rail will say exactly the same thing. Your ticket does too.

penexpers

This train is usually a six car set (I sometimes get it from Newbridge). Wonder why it was only three cars.

foggy_lad

penexpers wrote: »

This train is usually a six car set (I sometimes get it from Newbridge). Wonder why it was only three cars.

A serious lack of rolling stock due to corporate incompetence, and as for the trains in waterford being unfit they were perfectly sound before they were left to rot! There may not be a spare driver and guard but I am sure a quick call would find staff from elsewhere and Irish rail are well aware of extra demands on services this month as parents bring kids to Dublin and on other outings before they go back to school.

Cookie_Monster

foggy_lad wrote: »

On that point I wonder is it the case that those forced to stand can seek refunds from Irish rail because they paid for a seat which was not supplied?

if they ever brought that in the very next rush hour would bankrupt the company...

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

A serious lack of rolling stock due to corporate incompetence, and as for the trains in waterford being unfit they were perfectly sound before they were left to rot! There may not be a spare driver and guard but I am sure a quick call would find staff from elsewhere and Irish rail are well aware of extra demands on services this month as parents bring kids to Dublin and on other outings before they go back to school.

You sort of just contradicted yourslef with that statement. Those old trains haven't been maintained because they were decommisioned so they are now unfit for use.

Also, you can just start pulling staff from elsewhere because they wouldn't have the route knowledge nesscessary to safely operate the service.

devnull

As stated, you pay for a ticket to travel, not for a seat, as stated many times in this thread, this is standard in most countries.

In the UK this practice is the same, unless you book a seat at the time of reservation or book an advance type ticket.

SeanW

An important point to note is that Irish Rail scrapped more Intercity seats (AFAIK) with the Mark 2Ds (OK they were life-expired) and the Mark 3s (which were clearly not) than they got with the 22000s.

We have these kinds of problems all over the network - Intercity trains are often substituted by Commuter tin cans after all these years out in Sligo, on the Galway/Mayo route they have a Friday evening farce where they had a 6 coach train leaving Heuston where they planned to have 3 go to Westport and 3 go to Galway. But they found they had 6 coaches full of people going to Westport so they started sending the whole train to Westport.
The result? people taking that train to Galway get a bus at Athlone.

tombliboo83

You can't pluck staff out of thin air. Last week a 2700 was ran out ahead of the 11.00 as a special because there was such a large crowd, however, this only occured because there was a spare driver that day which wasn't the case for the rest of the week. This service used to be a six piece 2x3, but there is a lack of rolling stock right now. The mark3 and push pull which used to operate this service had far superior capacity and are personally greatly missed. The 22000s aren't flexible to changes in capacity sadly.

Oliver1985

A guy in waterford told me the mark3s were taken out of service because the toilets spray out on the tracks and some new eu law came in and if I.E put them out they get hit with a huge fine

struggling sam

I have little knowledge of rail travel, as I have limited knowledge. But, I travelled to Cork last weekend via Ryanair, which was cheaper by far than driving from Co. Meath.

For a 40 minute flight, was I expected to stand? Would that conform to safety standards? So what is different plane vs train?

flyingsnail

struggling sam wrote: »

I have little knowledge of rail travel, as I have limited knowledge. But, I travelled to Cork last weekend via Ryanair, which was cheaper by far than driving from Co. Meath.

For a 40 minute flight, was I expected to stand? Would that conform to safety standards? So what is different plane vs train?

Plane is flying, train is not.

Cookie_Monster

struggling sam wrote: »

For a 40 minute flight, was I expected to stand? Would that conform to safety standards? So what is different plane vs train?

its a pity you can't stand, it would make flights even cheaper

mickydoomsux

Oliver1985 wrote: »

A guy in waterford told me the mark3s were taken out of service because the toilets spray out on the tracks and some new eu law came in and if I.E put them out they get hit with a huge fine

They did actually do that but that wasn't the reason they were decomissioned. A few of the per way guys got exceedingly seriously ill from doing work around various stations because of the whole spraying out thing.

donvito99

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also the platform sign is only in English on the Dublin platform in Carlow!

Down with this sort of thing....






...careful now


Anyway, have IE been delivered with the full 234 or so railcars I thought were ordered?

And I also heard that some part of the Mark 3s were being put to use on the Enterprise? The generator car perhaps?

joegriffinjnr

Anyway, have IE been delivered with the full 234 or so railcars I thought were ordered?

Nope, still more to come.

And I also heard that some part of the Mark 3s were being put to use on the Enterprise? The generator car perhaps?

Yep, the generator cars will be introduced to improve reliability

foggy_lad

joegriffinjnr wrote: »

Nope, still more to come.

the replacements and new rolling stock are not expected till towards the end of 2012.

Transportuser09

struggling sam wrote: »

I have little knowledge of rail travel, as I have limited knowledge. But, I travelled to Cork last weekend via Ryanair, which was cheaper by far than driving from Co. Meath.

For a 40 minute flight, was I expected to stand? Would that conform to safety standards? So what is different plane vs train?

A plane takes off from the ground and comes down again, a train remains on a level surface. It should be pretty obvious which one is safer to stand in.

Manic Preacher

Having to stand on trains is a distant memory to me now, I did the decent thing and bought a car. Faster, cheaper and a hell of a lot more convenient.

Judgement Day

It's not just about safety though is it? How many of those people who had to stand will take the train again? How many people will they relay their tale of woe to? How many people who had a seat but didn't particularly enjoy having somebody standing over them for the entire journey will choose not to travel again? Home many people couldn't get down the carriage to use the probably rancid toilet? Sadly this is all too typical of Irish rail today - certainly every time I travel between Enniscorthy and Dublin I experience it in at least one direction and sometimes both. Already passengers numbers are well down across the system and this sort of nonsense will do further damage to what's left of the railway's reputation.

foggy_lad

Transportuser09 wrote: »

A plane takes off from the ground and comes down again, a train remains on a level surface. It should be pretty obvious which one is safer to stand in.

surely if these trains were meant to carry standees they would be fitted with hundreds of grab rails just like in the commuter railcars and dart units?

Who is responsible for passengers safety while they are on trains? Apart from Irish rail what statutory body is looking out for our safety? I might just find out and ask them about persistent incidents of so many people left standing as this is a more widespread problem than just the odd train.

dowlingm

The reality is that for some time IE has operated below requirement in terms of its available seats. They basically expected the same sort of miracles from the 22K fleet as from the 29s which I recall operated at 100pc utilisation for a while. The split points incident burned them badly as it lost them a 6 car set when they were already chancing their arm having lost the two damaged in transit. As far as I know nothing has happened with the split points set apart from a tender for repair.

We can rehash the Mark 3s until the cows come home but I think we have to come to the realisation now that IE have burned enough bridges to prevent the 3s returning to service, what with disposing of the genvans and the repurposing of the valeting plant. The most realistic ones to keep would probably have been the PPs but it would probably have been pricey to run with 201 power and no doubt those on the Waterford line would not have liked being downgraded to a non-aircon set.

The question I have is how IE propose to put a 22K on Galway-Limerick as well as start Pace service with the existing fleet count.

Captain Chaos

Transportuser09 wrote: »

A plane takes off from the ground and comes down again, a train remains on a level surface. It should be pretty obvious which one is safer to stand in.

You should try standing on the DART between Raheny and Killester in both directions. You'd jump around less on a trampoline, the track bed has gone to the dogs on that section over the past few months. I've been on smoother flights. The train really jumps up and down alot.

Cookie_Monster

Judgement Day wrote: »

It's not just about safety though is it? How many of those people who had to stand will take the train again? How many people will they relay their tale of woe to? How many people who had a seat but didn't particularly enjoy having somebody standing over them for the entire journey will choose not to travel again? Home many people couldn't get down the carriage to use the probably rancid toilet? Sadly this is all too typical of Irish rail today - certainly every time I travel between Enniscorthy and Dublin I experience it in at least one direction and sometimes both. Already passengers numbers are well down across the system and this sort of nonsense will do further damage to what's left of the railway's reputation.

well said, point which would probably pass most people by. I know If I experienced such I would simply drive the next time.

foggy_lad

The question I have is how IE propose to put a 22K on Galway-Limerick as well as start Pace service with the existing fleet count.

They are already using a 3car 22000 on galway-limerick. There was one waiting at platform 2 in galway the last day I was in galway.

patrickc

foggy_lad wrote: »

And I would surely be entitled to a full refund of ticket price due to this useless company not being able to accommodate me.

removed as i was drunk and talking through my ass

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are already using a 3car 22000 on galway-limerick. There was one waiting at platform 2 in galway the last day I was in galway.

Why do you persist in making these assertions without checking first?

There have only been 3 trains operated by 22000s on Galway-Limerick line. They were evening specials from Galway to Ennis after the Bob Dylan concert and during the Galway race week. These services used the 3-car set off the 1530 Heuston-Galway which would have no further duties after arriving in Galway.

All regular services on the WRC have been and still are operated by 2700 Class DMUs.

dowlingm wrote: »

The question I have is how IE propose to put a 22K on Galway-Limerick as well as start Pace service with the existing fleet count.

I am puzzled by your reference to a 22K on Limerick/Galway? The only time it could happen is in the evening using the sets that arrive in Limerick or Galway off the 1525 and 1530 respectively from Dublin to operate later services on the WRC. These trains are avilable as they would have finished their services after about 1815.

Other than that, until the next delivery arrives late next year I cannot see any other 22Ks working the WRC.

Pace requires one extra DMU - with some tweaking of set rosters it can probably be done.

KC61

The overloading issues can be tracked onto three routes (if you'll pardon the pun) and the reasons in my view are very simple.

The problems are principally on the Waterford, Rosslare and Westport routes heading towards Dublin in the mornings. The reason is down to the long gaps in service:

The Waterford line needs a service between 0740 and 1100 heading to Dublin, the Rosslare line needs a service in either direction at around 1000/1030, and Westport needs an extra service at about 1015 towards Dublin.

Now the question is how do you solve it?

Both Rosslare and Westport need recast timetables, but Waterford could perhaps be solved by operating a relief train to the normal services for all or part of the journey. However, this needs some organising as you need drivers to operate them and may have to alter the set rosters to make sure planned maintenance is carried out.

As other posters have said IE were very shortsighted in withdrawing all the Mark 3 stock from daily use before the next tranche of 22K deliveries, particularly given the delivery was 2 units short. I think that they should have retained maybe 3 sets, one as the Heuston standby, and the other two to operate early morning/late evening services to/from Dublin. Their use on single track routes would be limited where they have to pass other trains as their sectional running is not as good as the 22K sets, and as such would impact on the clockface timetables.

To understand why they were withdrawn, it really boiled down to cost. To operate a Mark 3 train requires a driver, guard and a shunter at either terminus to uncouple/recouple the locomotive. A 22000 only requires a driver. That is two less staff. The 22K sets are also cheaper to operate from an engineering perspective.

The issue mentioned about toilets is something of a red herring, as retention tanks could be fitted.

They are being retained for possible use on an hourly Belfast service that may happen at some stage in the future. As dowlingm states it is unlikely that they will return before then.

However, as JD says above there is an opportunity cost here - something needs to be done about the routes above because customers could be lost for good if this overcrowding continues.

KC61

A quick update....

As a temporary alteration for the coming weeks, the 0605 ex-Galway will now operate to Athlone only and passengers will transfer to the 0515 ex-Westport (these trains usually join at Athlone).

The set off the 0605 will then form the 0907 to Galway, taking a connection off the 0730 from Dublin. The latter train (which usually splits in Athlone) will continue as 2 x 3 pieces to Westport. This will therefore mean that the 1315 ex-Westport will be a 2 x 3 piece and will alleviate the overcrowding on that service.

A sensible change given that the mid-morning trains are heavily loaded with holiday traffic and the peak early morning services have lighter loads.

Good to see that someone is thinking outside the box!

foggy_lad

patrickc wrote: »

but you have the travel pass I believe so how could you get a refund?

You believe! Where are you getting your information?

schemingbohemia

How often has the OP had to stand on that particular journey? This is probably the first time or I'm sure we would have heard it by now.

So to facilitate a one-off occurence the OP is suggesting that IE should have a standby set ready to send down a single track route on the off-chance that this happens again?

How does that make any financial sense?

highlydebased

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How often has the OP had to stand on that particular journey? This is probably the first time or I'm sure we would have heard it by now.

So to facilitate a one-off occurence the OP is suggesting that IE should have a standby set ready to send down a single track route on the off-chance that this happens again?

How does that make any financial sense?

Because its single track is no excuse for not having a plan incase of such eventualities.

KC61 is correct, the only 22000's on the WRC have been the race+bob dylan specials.

foggy_lad

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How often has the OP had to stand on that particular journey? This is probably the first time or I'm sure we would have heard it by now.

So to facilitate a one-off occurence the OP is suggesting that IE should have a standby set ready to send down a single track route on the off-chance that this happens again?

How does that make any financial sense?

Trains from waterford/carlow are regularly overcrowded but some are almost empty. The 11.10 dublin-waterford was in carlow at the same time yesterday and was a 6car set with barely 50 people on board so something is wrong with the management of the resources/trains and it is down to management not normal hard working staff.

schemingbohemia

Neon-Circles wrote: »

Because its single track is no excuse for not having a plan incase of such eventualities.

The single track is very relevant because it would take a lot longer for an additional train to get down to carlow/kilkenny or waterford, in that time the next train would be likely to have begun it's journey so squeezing another train in would be very difficult.

As the OP has pointed out some trains are full most aren't, having to go to the expense of a spare train for the very odd occasion when trains have significant amounts of standing passengers doesn't make any sense.

The trains are safe to carry significant numbers of standing passengers and I'm sure the OP has already contacted the RSC to voice his concerns, because not to do so would lead one to the conclusion that he just wants a rant and not to do anything about it.

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

Trains from waterford/carlow are regularly overcrowded but some are almost empty. The 11.10 dublin-waterford was in carlow at the same time yesterday and was a 6car set with barely 50 people on board so something is wrong with the management of the resources/trains and it is down to management not normal hard working staff.

Yes the 1110 probably did have a lighter load. But the service that that particular train operated into Dublin earlier in the morning would have warranted the 6-car set.

You have to look at what the trains do beforehand as well - it is very easy to just look at one particular train without taking into account what other trains it might have operated or will operate later in the day.

The heavier loadings are in the morning to Dublin rather than out of it. The 0720 from Dublin to Waterford would not have a huge load on it (that is the train that operates the 1100 ex-Waterford) and would probably be fine with a 3-car train.

This is a seasonal problem due to the holidays at the moment. As I said above the solution is probably to juggle rosters around and try to somehow organise a relief service for at least part of the route for the 1100 ex-Waterford.

foggy_lad

Saying that the problem is seasonal is only letting irish rail off the hook when they have clearly failed to properly manage the trains they have.

Two months of the year is ton long to have this level of overcrowding and it will also be repeated at christmas and other times. Management need to get some basic lessons in managing trains on a yearly basis instead of their wait and see way of working!

Cookie_Monster

pity they ain't loco hauled services where a spare coach or two can be found easily enough to stick on the end when required. ah the benefits of DMUs

KC61

foggy_lad wrote: »

Saying that the problem is seasonal is only letting irish rail off the hook when they have clearly failed to properly manage the trains they have.

Two months of the year is ton long to have this level of overcrowding and it will also be repeated at christmas and other times. Management need to get some basic lessons in managing trains on a yearly basis instead of their wait and see way of working!

I am not absolving anyone of anything. I've already said that they need to do something about it. I'm making the point that it's very easy for you to say that trains should be magically re-routed but it is not as easy as you seem to think.

patrickc

foggy_lad wrote: »

You believe! Where are you getting your information?

removed that post above I was talking through my ass apoligies Foggy Lad

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

pity they ain't loco hauled services where a spare coach or two can be found easily enough to stick on the end when required. ah the benefits of DMUs

Agreed but those mark3s are gone for good it seems, but even a 4car 29000 commuter would have had much more capacity than the pathetic offering yesterday.

And considering the bus is faster from waterford/carlow to dublin city centre versus train and luas irish rail really cant afford to be treating their customers like cattle.

Ham'nd'egger

foggy_lad wrote: »

Agreed but those mark3s are gone for good it seems, but even a 4car 29000 commuter would have had much more capacity than the pathetic offering yesterday.

A 3 car 22000 class (without a first class and catering section) seats 192 while a 4 car 29000 set seats 185; seven less. You could carry over 600 standing passengers in the 29000 set but this would no doubts upset you as well

devnull

KC61 wrote: »

To understand why they were withdrawn, it really boiled down to cost. To operate a Mark 3 train requires a driver, guard and a shunter at either terminus to uncouple/recouple the locomotive. A 22000 only requires a driver. That is two less staff. The 22K sets are also cheaper to operate from an engineering perspective.

Just out of curiosity, I know nothing about the Irish Rail MK3's, but why can they not have either a loco on each end, or a non loco on one end which can be driven like they have in the UK?

Cookie_Monster

devnull wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, I know nothing about the Irish Rail MK3's, but why can they not have either a loco on each end, or a non loco on one end which can be driven like they have in the UK?

cost and duplication of staff for the two loco idea, and given the locos that are left they are massively overpowered to need 2 per train

And as for the DVT, they would need to be built

KC61

No duplication of staff - there is no staff in a locomotive when it is pushing the train.

It would be more of a weight issue I would think.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

No duplication of staff - there is no staff in a locomotive when it is pushing the train.

It would be more of a weight issue I would think.

you still need a guard at least and are mk3 wired to allow control from one loco to the other through the entire rake? I suppose you cold pull it unpowered but if it is powered then you'd need a staff member if cannot be controlled from driving loco