How long before we take to the streets

Enter Username

I have a question to put to everyone... What will it take to get the country marching en masse across the country.

How much more do this government think we can take before we literally force our way into the Dáil and drag them out (while just stopping short of lynching them at the same time)

Just some recent issues that have really got my back up...

1. Brian Lenihan approving the massive pay increases for Irish Nationwide staff... these increases are for the expected extra workload they will incur to try and fix the financial mess they created over the past few years. So while everyone is expected to take pay cuts he increases the salaries of the institutions that caused the whole mess.

2. Noel Dempsey and the debacle about the flights from Donegal to London etc... The response was it actually cost €13,000 not the €100,000 as the official figures showed, this just highlights how far they are removed from the feeling on the street. What really gets me is the generic response from any Fianna Fail (No fáda for a reason) representative when questioned about these issues... the whole patronizing "We are right no matter what" attitude.

3. I agree that public spending cuts are needed but how will any money be saved when they are not addressing the blatant abuse of the social welfare system. People from the North signing on in the south, People working while receiving the dole. How can people be better off NOT working than actually getting a job, its a crazy system in place and has to be unsustainable

When this was happening in Iceland the public were marching daily and the government resigned. What will it take for this to happen in Ireland.

Cookie_Monster

a tax on kids shoes in the next budget...

titular

Enter Username wrote: »

What will it take for this to happen in Ireland.

Less posting on boards and a credible opposition.

Probably.

Regards

T

mikemac

We have a few of these new threads every week now.

Time for a sticky?

The_Honeybadger

When enough people are hit harder by the recession, at the moment we have alot of households struggling to pay bills but managing ok, many on the dole who are also getting by etc, but there are alot of households, and I suppose I am talking about the middle classes who have been merely inconvenienced and are not angry enough to do anything, most of those who have lost their homes so far have handed back the keys by choice and nobody is starving. When people start getting evicted from their houses en masse and we have more severe cuts in government spending then we may see some action, alot of the soft cuts have been made now and the next ones will really hurt alot of people. The unemployed and the working poor are the ones who have most reason to complain at the moment, but they don't really have a voice as such, and are not organised enough to make any meaningful sort of difference. I also think that if the Government are forced by circumstances to renege on the CP deal we will see massive trouble on the streets as the PS strike and protest. All in all we are a very passive people however, remember Leno proudly stating that other Finance ministers asked him how he had gotten away with the cuts so far without protests. We also have a culture of putting up with corruption and blackguarding from those in power and few are surprised when scandals about expenses and excessive spending etc arise.

RichardAnd

mickeyk wrote: »

We also have a culture of putting up with corruption and blackguarding from those in power and few are surprised when scandals about expenses and excessive spending etc arise.

My take is that most people aren't really offended by politicians acting the maggot with tax payers money. Rather, they're jealous that they can't get away with it too.

Enter Username

RichardAnd wrote: »

My take is that most people aren't really offended by politicians acting the maggot with tax payers money. Rather, they're jealous that they can't get away with it too.

With a comment like that I assume you are an active member of Fianna Fail

mikemac

Enter Username wrote: »

So while everyone is expected to take pay cuts he increases the salaries of the institutions that caused the whole mess.

OP, you may have answered your own question here.
Public service workers had a pay cut. And we pay levies.
And a lot of people lost their jobs or had pay cuts.

But there is no way you can say everyone is expected to take pay cuts.
There are industries in Ireland still doing well, that never had pay cuts in the last few years and some pay bonuses as staff are leaving for better jobs.

For a lot of people, the recession passed them by except the income levy.
Same for retired people.

And if you are renting you probably negoited a discount so more money saved.
I know employment figures aren't always accurate but over 85% of people are working.

Yes, some say its "I'm alright Jack" but if you've a good job then it's hard to get into the rage and pain that you hear on Joe Duffy every day and from your post

RonMexico

It will happen when the government are forced to bring fiscal reality to the public service and social welfare. Both of which are bloated beyond sustainable levels.

RichardAnd

Enter Username wrote: »

With a comment like that I assume you are an active member of Fianna Fail

With a comment like that I assume you're an active member of FG or Labour?

I'm a member of no party, I just have a cynicism about the Irish that has yet to be lessened.

The_Honeybadger

feelingstressed wrote: »

OP, you may have answered your own question here.
Public service workers had a pay cut. And we pay levies.
And a lot of people lost their jobs or had pay cuts.

But there is no way you can say everyone is expected to take pay cuts.
There are industries in Ireland still doing well, that never had pay cuts in the last few years and some pay bonuses as staff are leaving for better jobs.

For a lot of people, the recession passed them by except the income levy.
Same for retired people.

And if you are renting you probably negoited a discount so more money saved.
I know employment figures aren't always accurate but over 85% of people are working.

Yes, some say its "I'm alright Jack" but if you've a good job then it's hard to get into the rage and pain that you hear on Joe Duffy every day and from your post

Exactly, most people are still doing just fine and have no reason to take to the streets. Unemployment is our biggest problem and most of the jobs lost have been in construction, which means young men in the main make up our newly unemployed. Most would not have strong political views and are not inclined to protest as a group as they have no single voice or forum from which to do so.

For those still in good employment (and there are many) their major complaint at the moment will be that the price of their house which they bought in the last decade has dropped, but that is hardly a reason to protest, who would you protest to in any case, they signed the mortgage agreement after all.

_Kaiser_

RonMexico wrote: »

It will happen when the government are forced to bring fiscal reality to the public service and social welfare. Both of which are bloated beyond sustainable levels.

I do "love" this ridiculous "social welfare is too much" rubbish that's spouted here by those who clearly have never had to manage on it.

There was a thread in AH (I think) the other day that (just for fun) listed some of the things that could be done with the 30 BILLION (so far!) that's been spent propping up FF's banking and developer buddies... and you think a paltry €196 a week for someone who's unemployed is any sort of equal comparison?

I was made redundant just before christmas (ironically from one of those PS jobs that I worked damn hard in but was let go regardless as a result of the recruitment embargo), and since then I've spent every day applying for jobs that I think I may have SOME chance of getting - I'm in IT (Support/Server admin side of things) and it seems to me that right now I've a better chance of winning the lotto than getting a job. Even getting a REPLY to an application is an achievement (despite my 12 years of experience and qualifications).

In the meantime however, I still have to pay my bills. Yes that's right, just like everyone else I still have ESB, Gas, phone, food, rent (no mortgage thank god!), and a car loan to service every month and believe me after that's all done there's very little left - and only possible because I've renegotiated payments with most of them.

Sure I could probably just say "feck it" but unfortunately unlike an increasing number of people in this country, I was raised that you pay your bills and take responsibility for your actions - not whinge that it's someone else's fault and wait for someone else to bail me out (I'm looking at those calling for debt forgiveness. on mortgages they took out on ridiculously overvalued property KNOWING they couldn't afford them, or those who think they can just continue to borrow their way out indefinitely, like this guy).
Maybe it's because I grew up in a working class family in the 80's where we didn't have very much, and what we did have had to be saved and worked for - rather than just borrowed from the bank or handed to us - that I gained an appreciation for the value of money and responsibility.

I've been working since I finished college and have always paid my own way and my taxes etc, but one thing this whole experience has taught me that it doesn't matter, because if you find yourself needing that assistance (that you've been paying towards for years), you'll have to practically beg and debase yourself before they'll give you the pittance that it is.

This arrogant and condescending assumption by people that anyone on the dole MUST be some sort of lazy waster who can't be bothered getting off their ass REALLY pisses me off!!

It would do a lot of these keyboard economists good to open their eyes and see for themselves the real and tangible divide that exists between the haves and have nots in this country.

dan_d

I completely agree with you Kaiser2000, being in a similar position myself - less time unemployed and with a mortgage, however - but at what point do you call time on being unemployed and contemplate leaving?
It's your life at the end of the day, and there's nothing happening here.

Zamboni

How you got here...

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I do "love" this ridiculous "social welfare is too much" rubbish that's spouted here by those who clearly have never had to manage on it.

This arrogant and condescending assumption by people that anyone on the dole MUST be some sort of lazy waster who can't be bothered getting off their ass REALLY pisses me off!!

From this...

RonMexico wrote: »

It will happen when the government are forced to bring fiscal reality to the public service and social welfare. Both of which are bloated beyond sustainable levels.

is a bit of a jump tbh.

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

There was a thread in AH (I think) the other day that (just for fun) listed some of the things that could be done with the 30 BILLION (so far!) that's been spent propping up FF's banking and developer buddies... and you think a paltry €196 a week for someone who's unemployed is any sort of equal comparison?

If it was limited to €196 a week Ireland would be in much better fiscal shape, but it's not. There are a host of benefits available outside of this figure which in itself is very high compared to most other European states (after an initial grace period which is usually linked to previous earnings).

Rent supplement alone can add another €500 a month per person, then there's medical cards and free travel passes, telephone allowances, fuel allowances, childrens allowances (the poster refered to all social welfare payments), and on and on....it's not sustainable with current tax take and the tax take isn't going up anytime soon. We can't keep borrowing 20bn a year or we will leave a disastrous legacy for our kids to (try to) clean up.

_Kaiser_

Zamboni wrote: »

How you got here...



From this...



is a bit of a jump tbh.

Not really.

My point is that it's naive (and unfair) to think that by simply cutting the incomes of those in most need at the moment, we'll solve all the ills of this country.

I'll grant you that yes the welfare system, and the PS, are both in serious need of reform - but I'd argue any government that has squandered the amount of money it has to date to keep a dieseased institution like Anglo going, and solely for the benefit of vested interests (read: contributors to FF) who've been caught out now that the economy has crashed, is not QUALIFIED to make decsions (particularly economic ones) for the country.

Part of the problem of course is that our TD's are largely teachers and lawyers - very few with an economic background - or career politicians (having gotten their seat from Daddy), so they just don't have the ability to get us out of this mess they led us in to.

But what they ARE good at is scapegoating and subterfuge.
Just as 6 months ago it was the "public vs private" sector, now its "employed vs unemployed". While we all sit sniping at each other, those REALLY responsible sit back and laugh at the "peasants" while they continue to be paid inflated salaries and enjoy their unvouched for "perks".

And while there are those out there that simply don't want to work, and will claim every cent they're "entitled" to, I'd like to think that they're still a minority, and that crucifying those genuine people who are trying to simply get by in circumstances not of their own making will actually solve nothing and if anything make things worse as these same people are forced to emigrate to survive.

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Not really.

My point is that it's naive (and unfair) to think that by simply cutting the incomes of those in most need at the moment, we'll solve all the ills of this country.

I'll grant you that yes the welfare system, and the PS, are both in serious need of reform - but I'd argue any government that has squandered the amount of money it has to date to keep a dieseased institution like Anglo going, and solely for the benefit of vested interests (read: contributors to FF) who've been caught out now that the economy has crashed, is not QUALIFIED to make decsions (particularly economic ones) for the country.

Part of the problem of course is that our TD's are largely teachers and lawyers - very few with an economic background - or career politicians (having gotten their seat from Daddy), so they just don't have the ability to get us out of this mess they led us in to.

But what they ARE good at is scapegoating and subterfuge.
Just as 6 months ago it was the "public vs private" sector, now its "employed vs unemployed". While we all sit sniping at each other, those REALLY responsible sit back and laugh at the "peasants" while they continue to be paid inflated salaries and enjoy their unvouched for "perks".

And while there are those out there that simply don't want to work, and will claim every cent they're "entitled" to, I'd like to think that they're still a minority, and that crucifying those genuine people who are trying to simply get by in circumstances not of their own making will actually solve nothing and if anything make things worse as these same people are forced to emigrate to survive.

I'm not really sure what your point is tbh. You seem to accept that cuts are needed (my bold there) but that because FF are in government at the moment that no cuts should be made?

Nobody wants FF out more than me, but I'm not about to bite my country's nose off to spite FF's face by claiming that we should wait until FF are removed before cuts to welfare (and the PS) are made. Every day that we do nothing we are racking up massive debt for our kids...and FF are the legitimate government and received the most votes in the last (and previous) elections. We chose our government. We chose to support policies of fueling the property led boom by repeatedly re-electing FF. We must all now live with the consequences of that boom and subsequent bust.

liammur

It's far too simplistic to say cut the social welfare. An ill thought out knee jerk reaction.

Social welfare like the public sector need reform.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

I'm not really sure what your point is tbh. You seem to accept that cuts are needed (my bold there) but that because FF are in government at the moment that no cuts should be made?

My point is that while cuts do need to be made, they need to be made in the right places.

Top priority: stop any further flow of public money to the banks - they shouldn't have gotten a cent IMO, next reform the PS and eliminate the deadwood - particularly in the HSE and redeploy staff where they're needed most such as front-line services.

Next, reform the tax system so that it's simpler to understand and remove the countless loopholes that allow the wealthy to get away with paying next to nothing.

If we did all that it'd be a good start.

My point about FF is that they have shown themselves as both unwilling and incapable of making these choices - instead they continue to go for the "soft" targets, those who can least afford the pain, namely the unemployed and the elderly - while looking after themselves and their friends in the banks and developers, and for THOSE reasons they need to go.

I'd argue however that the reason they've survived in government for so long is not because people are happy with their policies or performance, but simply because they are unfortunately the ONLY party who HAS any (vaguely practical) policies to implement - they did not so much win the last election, as the "opposition" failed to turn up.

I've no loyalty to any party myself.. I just want one that'll get the job done on time and in budget with a zero tolerance policy to backhanders and corruption - but then this is Ireland and I might as well wait for the Leprechaun to show me the way to his pot of gold as wait for good and effective government.

demonspawn

I wouldn't hold my breath for a second Irish revolution. The first one was pretty unpopular and only a handful of people (comparatively speaking) were involved. The majority were happy enough just taking what was given to them. Add to that the fact that many, if not most, of the liberators of this country were English protestants and Irish gentry and well, you get my point.

There are people taking to the streets as we speak but they are simply disregarded as idealistic students, communists, old hippies, or greedy trade union folks. This country lacks solidarity, and has always lacked solidarity. I don't see that changing any time soon.

This country has been divided on so many fronts. East vs West, North vs South, Kerry vs Cork, rich vs poor, FF vs FG, city vs country, those in the big tent at the Galway Races vs everyone else in the country. I'm sure this could be elaborated even more but you get the idea.

mikemac

Realy, the only people in Ireland to consistently organize protests in Ireland are farmers. Nothing like a go slow in tractor convoys on the national routes to get on the news
They are organized and know the power of block voting.
The IFA secured guarantees on Ireland's vote in WTO before recommending a yes vote to Lisbon treaty.

Now look at most people unemployed in Ireland. Of course there are people from all sectors but mainly from retail, construction and recent graduates and school leavers.

And everyone of them disorganized and not getting their message across.

We won't see big protests in Ireland.
Sure look at recent protests. I was reading posts dismissing them and also laughing at the political parties who jumped on board and brought their banners.
Even the boyos in 1916 were reviled by the country immediately afterwards

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dan_d

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

It's true. I've posted elsewhere, I'm on the dole, it sucks - but i can see it needs to be cut. It's not as simple as completely cut it, but there are methods of doing, as I've posted. There are a lot of people on it that are there through no fault of their own and do need the money. I also think we need to get rid of some conditions attached - ie, you should be able to take temporary work without it affecting when you go back to claim the dole, as more people would take up the work if that was the case.

Minimum wage/wages in general are one of the main drivers in the cost of living. I've explained this to death also elsewhere. One won't drop without the other, and unfortunately, the cut in wages needs to come first in this case.

I personally object to every item on Donegalfella's list. I will (and did) happily take the wage cut, if it means I can have a job. Unfortunately there are too many people out there who are all for solving the problem, as long as other people are taking the wage cuts and paying more tax. They just don't seem to see that we are all involved in this problem, and as somebody who has spent a long time on the dole said to me recently "you discover quickly how little money you can really live on".

I've no doubt there'll be a tranche of responses about how everyone is on the breadline, and how everybody here didn't spend irresponsibly and the usual stuff about mortgages,and why shouldn't we be able to have holidays etc,etc, but the fact of the matter is that until we all accept the wage cuts, the cuts in social welfare and the cuts in minimum wage, we are going absolutely nowhere except around in circles. Irish people have a massive problem accepting that.

jmayo

Enter Username wrote: »

...
2. Noel Dempsey and the debacle about the flights from Donegal to London etc... The response was it actually cost €13,000 not the €100,000 as the official figures showed, this just highlights how far they are removed from the feeling on the street. What really gets me is the generic response from any Fianna Fail (No fáda for a reason) representative when questioned about these issues... the whole patronizing "We are right no matter what" attitude.

Correction he flew to airport in Derry which was farther away from final destination and in different tax jurisdiction so landing fees not even given to Irish state.

Enter Username wrote: »

When this was happening in Iceland the public were marching daily and the government resigned. What will it take for this to happen in Ireland.

When most Irish people start giving a sh** about their country and who stop only becoming patriotic when Ireland is playing rugby or soccer internationals.
Icelandic people are nordic/scandanavian extraction and these people tend to give a cr** about right and wrong, accountability and responsibility.
We are more like our fellow EU southern Europeans who take a more lax attitude to the above.

IMHO we are not a civically minded people.
From my memory of school we do not really teach kids, like other countries do, how our state works, how government works and what Irish citizenship really means.
So lots of people grow up to not understand how our government works and even worse couldn't care less.
They see it as some mythical system that doesn't concern them except when it takes money off them or they can get money out of it.

Sadly our politicans, and one party in particular, have sullied the name of politics, so that now all politicans are considered self serving greedy arrogant unethical theiving bast***s.

Enter Username wrote: »

RichardAnd wrote: »

My take is that most people aren't really offended by politicians acting the maggot with tax payers money. Rather, they're jealous that they can't get away with it too.

With a comment like that I assume you are an active member of Fianna Fail

No I would say he was just being realistic, but I would preface it with "a lot of people" rather than "most people".
How else can one explain how over 40 % of the voting electorate voted in 2007 for a party led by a guy who came up with ever more rediculous explanations for him having wads of cash equivalent to many multiples of the average industrial wage at a time when he didn't even have a bank account, but yet held one of the highest finanical jobs in the government.

And note above I said voting electorate.
The rest of the electorate couldn't be bothered getting off their ar*** to go out an vote against such an individual as leader of our country.

And please don't get me started on the sh** that the opposition were bad so he was the only option.
He and some of his government ministers (ex ministers) had the smell of corruption about them and that is never the best option.

Also remember the people in other constituences that voted in bev flynn, liam lawlor, ray burke, haughey, michael lowry, etc.
Even worse example of this lack of punishment for malignant politicans, is how a ff/ex ff county councillor in Galway (stroke fahy) was voted back in even though he was found guilty in a court of law of fraudently obtaining services/equipment (bascially stealing) from the council and even worse trying to implicate innocent individual.

demonspawn wrote: »

I wouldn't hold my breath for a second Irish revolution. The first one was pretty unpopular and only a handful of people (comparatively speaking) were involved. The majority were happy enough just taking what was given to them. Add to that the fact that many, if not most, of the liberators of this country were English protestants and Irish gentry and well, you get my point.

There are people taking to the streets as we speak but they are simply disregarded as idealistic students, communists, old hippies, or greedy trade union folks. This country lacks solidarity, and has always lacked solidarity. I don't see that changing any time soon.

This country has been divided on so many fronts. East vs West, North vs South, Kerry vs Cork, rich vs poor, FF vs FG, city vs country, those in the big tent at the Galway Races vs everyone else in the country. I'm sure this could be elaborated even more but you get the idea.

True we have always been easily divided and it was easy enough for the English/British to rule us over the centuries.

One thing that always amazes me is when people talk of our history as if were in all in continous revolution against the British.
Look at our history, we only had sporadic revolts and these only rarely received widespread support.
Look at Emmet's in 1803, young Irelanders in 1848, Irish Republican Brotherhood in 1867 right upto 1916 where the vast majority of the people lambasted the revolutionaries.
They only got widespread support once they were executed.

And so it is today, most people are looking after no.1 and unless they are really targetted they don't give a cr**.

Unwilling

We need better management of our country and that is the short version.

The social welfare system is in rag order - but I agree with some posters, not everyone on the system is lazy. The problem with the system is it allows long term unemployment and it sustains that way of life. However, if you have a mortgage and a lifestyle that needs sustaining for short interims between jobs, it can't be done on the dole. But some people do very well on the system, they have medical cards, houses, benefits etc.
And they are quite well aware that going to work means losing this and being slightly worse or slightly better off than they are... but with less hours to spare at the end of the week.
AND I KNOW this is not everyone I'd already said that, however, I also KNOW many people who do have the social welfare way of living.....

As regards our government - they've all been at it for years and even more so with the celtic tiger when none of us were looking. Now researchers are in the archives pulling out expense dockets from 5 years back and hanging any one they can.

The fact of the matter is the government DO have a difficult job but with cushy perks! How many "holidays" do they get? How many days are they not allowed to turn up for work? How much non receipted expenses do they have? How much expenses do they have?
They don't seem to have any conscience about the money that they DO SPEND...
It's common sense really, for example, if you were short on money and borrowed a few bob from your mate because you were smashed (not just cause you left your wallet at home but stoney broke) to pay a bill, or get petrol or what have you - would you turn around the next day and brag about the new car ya bought or the holiday your going on!?
NO I'd like to think most people wouldn't BUT that is more or less what the government are doing to us.
We're stoney broke, need to borrow a few bob to see us through a rough patch (pay cuts, levies) and then they go on off out and by a holiday/new car (travel expenses, new offices, extravagance etc)

SO - I do believe if someone organised a rally and with enough advertising and a PROPER AGENDA........yes, I do believe we would take to the streets...........

liammur

There isn't the fight in the irish, we've been beaten down too many times before so we will readily take our medicine. FF know this too.

Liam Byrne

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Two points.

1) Based on the above statement, then the inference is that this FF government don't want to see the country back on its feet, because they're not objecting to the lavish banking bailouts (or, apparently, adverse to breaking the agreed cap for pay rises, as apparent from the thread on Lenihan's latest cock-up).

2) If the government aren't prepared to implement both, fairly, then they have no moral authority to impose one.

BOTH need to be implemented. Simultaneously. And if people saw fairness they might swallow the bitter pill.

Until then, however, people won't. Former incompetent, corrupt and supposedly bankrupt developers, bankers and so-called "regulators" getting €27,000,000 in pensions ? Still driving their cars and living in their big houses ?

They should be on the dole and living accordingly - if they're lucky to escape Mountjoy.

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

My point is that while cuts do need to be made, they need to be made in the right places.

Top priority: stop any further flow of public money to the banks - they shouldn't have gotten a cent IMO, next reform the PS and eliminate the deadwood - particularly in the HSE and redeploy staff where they're needed most such as front-line services.

Agreed on the above.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Next, reform the tax system so that it's simpler to understand and remove the countless loopholes that allow the wealthy to get away with paying next to nothing.

The wealthy already pay the lion's share of tax in Ireland. If you mean "super wealthy" types like Denis O'Brien who can afford to be tax domiciled elsewhere, well there's not much that can be done above that. The real problem in Ireland is that so many "low earners" don't pay income tax at all. These people used to pay tax, but Bertie the socialist (muppet) removed FAR too many people from the tax net. These people need to be brought back in and contribute to the services they use.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

My point about FF is that they have shown themselves as both unwilling and incapable of making these choices - instead they continue to go for the "soft" targets, those who can least afford the pain, namely the unemployed and the elderly

This is just factually wrong. FF took just ~€8 a week from the dole at the last budget (apart from young people who mostly live at home), bring it down to one of the highest rates of dole in the EU! The state pension was COMPLETELY UNTOUCHED despite the falling cost of living and the FACT that most pensioners have paid off their mortgages and have no large expenses.

FF didn't go near the grey vote: they are afraid of pensioners more than ANY other group (remember the reversal of the medical card decision )

liammur

There are far too many tax avoidance schemes which enable the rich pay little or no tax.
They did target welfare, €8 & also cut the christmas bonus from welfare recipients is a nice aggregrate % for some struggling with bills

I do agree re the grey vote.

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

There are far too many tax avoidance schemes which enable the rich pay little or no tax.

Can you name one?

I believe that the Irish tax code is actually pretty damn watertight compared to lots of other western nations.

Do you mean tax reliefs?

I would scrap all tax reliefs tbh, including mortgage interest relief for homeowners and property investors/landlords alike. I would remove any and all tax reliefs that artificially promote property ownership.

liammur wrote: »

They did target welfare, €8 & also cut the christmas bonus from welfare recipients is a nice aggregrate % for some struggling with bills

IRELAND is struggling to pay its bills! Being emotive about an issue doesn't make it go away. How can people be struggling to pay bills with dole 3 times higher than across the border? NI isn't 3 times cheaper to live in than the RoI. If you mean "struggling to pay debts" on the dole then that's another thing entirely: the dole is not AND NEVER WAS intended to be able to support a person's debts, just to provide subsistence until they find work again.

liammur

murphaph wrote: »

Can you name one?

I believe that the Irish tax code is actually pretty damn watertight compared to lots of other western nations.

Do you mean tax reliefs?

I would scrap all tax reliefs tbh, including mortgage interest relief for homeowners and property investors/landlords alike. I would remove any and all tax reliefs that artificially promote property ownership.


IRELAND is struggling to pay its bills! Being emotive about an issue doesn't make it go away. How can people be struggling to pay bills with dole 3 times higher than across the border? NI isn't 3 times cheaper to live in than the RoI. If you mean "struggling to pay debts" on the dole then that's another thing entirely: the dole is not AND NEVER WAS intended to be able to support a person's debts, just to provide subsistence until they find work again.

This is just a quick piece taken from taxation.ie

The move, the Business Post reports, marks an escalation in the State’s efforts to crack down on aggressive tax planning and the use of controversial tax-avoidance schemes, which have cost the Exchequer billions of euro in lost revenue. The changes, needless to say, have already received a hostile reaction from tax-advisory firms.

Head The Wall

Those billions are already lost though, you can't retroactively claim them back

It was the govt that implemented these very schemes that now has them in a hole.

liammur

That's my point, the previous poster claimed our tax code is water tight, it's anything but.

An article taken from the examiner.ie illustrates this:

The Government has been sharply criticised for failing to stop the super rich from avoiding tax.

New figures from the Revenue Commissioners show more than 180 big earners in 2003 paid no tax at all.

In last December's Budget, Minister for Finance Brian Cowen announced a range of measures that he said would clamp down on tax avoidance.

However, Labour's Joan Bruton says these new figures show the system is not working.

"We now have a much clearer picture of the extent of this very specialised type of tax avoidance scheme brought in by the Government to help the very wealthy," she said.

"It's basically allowing very significant numbers of them with astronomical incomes to pay no tax at all and it's also allowing significant numbers of them to reduce their tax to the lower rate."

Head The Wall

Tax breaks and tax evasion are two very different things. One of them is illegal and the other is done with the approval of the govt.

Secondly that article is from 7 years ago which is useless unless we have more recent figures to compare against.

liammur

Head The Wall wrote: »

Tax breaks and tax evasion are two very different things. One of them is illegal and the other is done with the approval of the govt.

Secondly that article is from 7 years ago which is useless unless we have more recent figures to compare against.

You're a little confused.

It's tax avoidance as opposed to tax evasion. Here's another one dated recently. They're everywhere.

http://www.sbpost.ie/news/ireland/revenue-sheds-light-on-details-of-complex-tax-avoidance-schemes-50444.html

Revenue sheds light on details of complex tax avoidance schemes
11 July 2010 By Ian Kehoe and David Clerkin

The Revenue Commissioners have released, for the first time, details of some of the most elaborate tax avoidance structures used by we al thy individuals and companies to reduce tax bills.

Documents released to The Sunday Business Post under the Freedom of Information Act revealed the workings of several highly complex tax schemes, which may have cost the Exchequer hundreds of millions of euro in lost revenue.

Revenue is aggressively targeting the schemes, and plans to recoup the lost revenue if it finds they failed to fully satisfy the requirements of Irish the tax code.

Among the schemes being proved by the Revenue were complex mechanisms aimed an engineering tax write-offs through artificial losses and reducing tax liabilities by inflating tax deductions.

The most popular scheme to come to Revenue’s attention involved 34 individuals taking out loans in so-called soft foreign currencies.

The scheme facilitated the individuals in claiming higher tax deductions than they could have claimed on loans denominated in euros.

Another highly complex scheme allowed investors to create artificial losses for tax purposes, even though they had lost no money.

This scheme alone cost the Exchequer an estimated €80 million, although Revenue aims to recoup most of this money by challenging the scheme.

Other schemes that have come to the Revenue’s attention include the use of foreign trusts and the use of limited liability partnerships in tax havens such as Liechtenstein and Bermuda.

Most of the schemes were devised by leading accountancy firms and tax advisers, with the intention of reducing their client’s tax exposure.

This is the first time that the Revenue has ever released details of how the scheme operated and their attitude towards their legality.

The release of the information to this newspaper comes following a decision four years ago by the Department of Finance to introduce a so-called protective notification scheme, whereby tax practitioners were offered incentives to inform Revenue of details of any potentially controversial tax scheme.

These incentives took the form of lighter punishments for their clients if their schemes were subsequently found to be in breach of the tax code.

Taxpayers who engage in sophisticated tax planning arrangements, but fail to make a protective notification, face stiff penalties, if their schemes attract the Revenue’s attention at a later date and Revenue or the courts rule against them.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

This is just factually wrong. FF took just ~€8 a week from the dole at the last budget (apart from young people who mostly live at home), bring it down to one of the highest rates of dole in the EU! The state pension was COMPLETELY UNTOUCHED despite the falling cost of living and the FACT that most pensioners have paid off their mortgages and have no large expenses.

Spoken like someone who's never had to manage on the dole (though correct me if I'm wrong).

As I said previously, a lot of the "newly unemployed" are those who've recently been made redundant, and believe it or not - the bills that have to be paid as a working adult (the aforementioned ESB, Gas, Phone, Car loans etc) DON'T just disappear or reduce in line with the drastic cut in income people suffer in these instances.

Therefore €8 a week (with €196 left) DOES actually make a difference. That €30 for example is my renegotiated gas/ESB bill payment for the month.

It may not be a large amount in the "grand scheme of things" but €5 might as well be €5,000,000 if you don't have it when you need it!

IRELAND is struggling to pay its bills! Being emotive about an issue doesn't make it go away. How can people be struggling to pay bills with dole 3 times higher than across the border? NI isn't 3 times cheaper to live in than the RoI. If you mean "struggling to pay debts" on the dole then that's another thing entirely: the dole is not AND NEVER WAS intended to be able to support a person's debts, just to provide subsistence until they find work again.

Ireland is struggling to pay it's bills because of the decisions that were made (and ARE being made) by those "trusted" to run the country - namely the same government that is more interested in protecting itself and its banking/building friends, than acting for the good of the country.

This whole "cost of living" has dropped argument is false too.
Yes CERTAIN things have reduced, but diesel/petrol has increased (and thus affecting business and retailers who are forced to pass those costs on), ESB is on the increase, and various other costs that we all have to pay and thus therefore negate any decreases that may have come into play.

Anglo should have gone to the wall. The €30 billion (and counting!) that the current government seems to have had no problem finding (at a time when essential services are being cut back and with more stealth taxes/cuts to come) should have been spent on looking after the people who are now - through no fault of their own - unemployed and with little hope of finding anything else in the short/medium term.

Your argument completely ignores (and thus absolves) the fact that the people who got us into this mess, are the same ones you now trust to resolve it when their actions in the last 18 months have clearly shown they're not capable (or willing) of doing so.

You want to save the country? Step 1, get rid of the ones who caused the problem in the first place.

EDIT:
The other problem is that the recession has impacted people in dramatically different ways.
While someone like myself, who worked in the PS I might add, was laid off as a result of the recruitment embargo (despite my job actually becoming busier than ever - irony eh!), most of my friends for example are still working in secure private-sector permanent jobs and haven't REALLY been impacted by all the cuts. They can still go off on their 2/3 holidays a year, go out, and live comfortably.

They wouldn't be "rich" by any means - just your average white-collar private sector worker, but it's easy to preach about waste and cutting back when you've never had to do it yourself.. I certainly won't be going on any holidays this year and I can't remember the last time I was out!

As I said elsewhere, the division between the haves and have nots in this country has never been more evident, and it's only going to increase!

murphaph

liammur wrote: »

Revenue is aggressively targeting the schemes, and plans to recoup the lost revenue if it finds they failed to fully satisfy the requirements of Irish the tax code.

Among the schemes being proved by the Revenue were complex mechanisms aimed an engineering tax write-offs through artificial losses and reducing tax liabilities by inflating tax deductions.

etc.

This is tax evasion! NOT tax avoidance! The above "schemes" would breach our tax code and clearly be tax evasion. Our tax code is as watertight as most western European nations, if not all.

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Spoken like someone who's never had to manage on the dole (though correct me if I'm wrong).

As I said previously, a lot of the "newly unemployed" are those who've recently been made redundant, and believe it or not - the bills that have to be paid as a working adult (the aforementioned ESB, Gas, Phone, Car loans etc) DON'T just disappear or reduce in line with the drastic cut in income people suffer in these instances.

Therefore €8 a week (with €196 left) DOES actually make a difference. That €30 for example is my renegotiated gas/ESB bill payment for the month.

It may not be a large amount in the "grand scheme of things" but €5 might as well be €5,000,000 if you don't have it when you need it!



Ireland is struggling to pay it's bills because of the decisions that were made (and ARE being made) by those "trusted" to run the country - namely the same government that is more interested in protecting itself and its banking/building friends, than acting for the good of the country.

This whole "cost of living" has dropped argument is false too.
Yes CERTAIN things have reduced, but diesel/petrol has increased (and thus affecting business and retailers who are forced to pass those costs on), ESB is on the increase, and various other costs that we all have to pay and thus therefore negate any decreases that may have come into play.

Anglo should have gone to the wall. The €30 billion (and counting!) that the current government seems to have had no problem finding (at a time when essential services are being cut back and with more stealth taxes/cuts to come) should have been spent on looking after the people who are now - through no fault of their own - unemployed and with little hope of finding anything else in the short/medium term.

Your argument completely ignores (and thus absolves) the fact that the people who got us into this mess, are the same ones you now trust to resolve it when their actions in the last 18 months have clearly shown they're not capable (or willing) of doing so.

You want to save the country? Step 1, get rid of the ones who caused the problem in the first place.

kaiser, you keep talking about Anglo (and I agree it should have been let go to the wall, along with every bank apart from AIB and BOI which ARE of systemic importance) as if had the money not been poured into them that all would be well. Anglo and the rest of the banks are not the most pressing issue facing ireland, contrary to what you believe.

Ireland's most pressing issue right now is that we are borrowing the cost of bailing Anglo out every 12 months. That's an Anglo bailout every year until we get our social welfare and public sector payments into line with our tax take (which only has a certain amount of room to be expanded before we hit the point of diminishing returns, which many reckon we have already).

You blame FF for everything? Who voted for them (repeatedly) for the last 13 years? Are you trying to claim that the electorate bear absolutely no responsibility for electing these bunch of clowns for so long? I stopped voting for them at the 2002 election as I could see manufacturing in Ireland was in decline and FF's policies were chasing the property bubble model of economics. But lots and lots and lots of people (evidently) supported FF's property based policies, or else never bothered reading their manifesto, or simply looking at the economy around them. I'm sick to death of listening to such people today bemoaning FF as if they are solely responsible.

The Irish public as a whole bought into the bubble, fueled it by overstretching themselves and now they expect money to be borrowed (and be repaid by our children) to dig them out of the mess they have gotten themselves into.

So, you want to get rid of the ones who caused the problem? A good half of the electorate caused it. The electorate had 13 years in which to remove FF. The problem is that a massive majority of Irish people are economically and politically ignorant and happy to be that way. No wonder Ireland is such a sh!thole in so many ways.

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

kaiser, you keep talking about Anglo (and I agree it should have been let go to the wall, along with every bank apart from AIB and BOI which ARE of systemic importance) as if had the money not been poured into them that all would be well. Anglo and the rest of the banks are not the most pressing issue facing ireland, contrary to what you believe.

Ireland's most pressing issue right now is that we are borrowing the cost of bailing Anglo out every 12 months. That's an Anglo bailout every year until we get our social welfare and public sector payments into line with our tax take (which only has a certain amount of room to be expanded before we hit the point of diminishing returns, which many reckon we have already).

You blame FF for everything? Who voted for them (repeatedly) for the last 13 years? Are you trying to claim that the electorate bear absolutely no responsibility for electing these bunch of clowns for so long? I stopped voting for them at the 2002 election as I could see manufacturing in Ireland was in decline and FF's policies were chasing the property bubble model of economics. But lots and lots and lots of people (evidently) supported FF's property based policies, or else never bothered reading their manifesto, or simply looking at the economy around them. I'm sick to death of listening to such people today bemoaning FF as if they are solely responsible.

The Irish public as a whole bought into the bubble, fueled it by overstretching themselves and now they expect money to be borrowed (and be repaid by our children) to dig them out of the mess they have gotten themselves into.

So, you want to get rid of the ones who caused the problem? A good half of the electorate caused it. The electorate had 13 years in which to remove FF. The problem is that a massive majority of Irish people are economically and politically ignorant and happy to be that way. No wonder Ireland is such a sh!thole in so many ways.

Well we agree on that last one.. this country really is a insular backwater little hole.

And you're right, the Irish as a nation are too caught up in their own selfish little lives and "getting one over" on each other that the entire country suffers as a result. FF merely took advantage of that. I don't blame them, they are simply a product of that mindset and system.
Personally I don't think it'd matter which of the current parties was at the controls - we'd still be in the same mess we are now.

You're also right that all the "free" money of the boom years has left us with a generation of people who are now calling for bailouts, rather than taking responsibility for their actions and working with their creditors to manage them. I was raised that you pay your bills and take responsibility for your actions - but it seems these lessons were lost on the "Celtic Tiger Cubs" who are now crying about having to pay back the debts they knowingly and happily took out.

But when that's the example that's being set by the ruling elite and heads of companies and banks (who SHOULD have known better!), what can you really expect? If it's good enough for him.....

THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. We need a fundamental shift in attitudes that starts with the man in the street, and goes right up to the party in government at the time.

Hitting those who have lost their jobs, three-quarters of their incomes, and who are now struggling to pay their bills while those responsible for the mess continue to be held unaccountable and compensated by the tax payer, is not the way out either.

All these banks and developers and companies are commercial entities and should stand or fall based on their market performance, not propped up indefinitely by public money that is desperately needed elsewhere (front line health services, Gardai, job creation, education/retraining, even road maintenance etc).

Unfortunately I know that asking an entire country to "grow up" is realistically never going to happen (particularly when there's so many reasons NOT to), but until we do, this country will never get better for those who are left in it.

Liam Byrne

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

But when that's the example that's being set by the ruling elite and heads of companies and banks (who SHOULD have known better!), what can you really expect? If it's good enough for him.....

THAT'S the point I'm trying to make. We need a fundamental shift in attitudes that starts with the man in the street, and goes right up to the party in government at the time.

Hitting those who have lost their jobs, three-quarters of their incomes, and who are now struggling to pay their bills while those responsible for the mess continue to be held unaccountable and compensated by the tax payer, is not the way out either.

All these banks and developers and companies are commercial entities and should stand or fall based on their market performance, not propped up indefinitely by public money that is desperately needed elsewhere (front line health services, Gardai, job creation, education/retraining, even road maintenance etc).

Unfortunately I know that asking an entire country to "grow up" is realistically never going to happen (particularly when there's so many reasons NOT to), but until we do, this country will never get better for those who are left in it.

And therein lies the problem........the government have no moral authority to request anyone to cop themselves on when they themselves don't (sickening condonence of corruption and non-expenses) and they throw our money at those who don't, bailing out bankrupt and corrupt entities.

Which is why there needs to be a complete clearout of the top - so that someone who DOES have moral authority can stand up and say "here's what needs to be done".

Until that day, Lenihan & Co can go f**k themselves; and that's from someone who was equally raised to pay their way and that taxes were a necessity that contributed to society.

But until FF are in the nearest skip, and until FG & Labour start to actually ACT like they're worth their inflated salaries, the mindset of "mé féin" will be embedded in everyone's ethos.......creating a catch-22.

liammur

murphaph wrote: »

This is tax evasion! NOT tax avoidance! The above "schemes" would breach our tax code and clearly be tax evasion. Our tax code is as watertight as most western European nations, if not all.

No. There is a fine line between tax evasion and tax avoidance.

Bono, for instance, http://www.makebonopaytax.com/ is availing of tax avoidance schemes to save tens of millions of €. Unless and until these are changed he is perfectly entitled to do so. Once or if the law is changed, he's liable for prosecution if he continues to avail of them. This now would be classed as tax evasion, and subject to penalties. It must be pointed out that several high earners avail of these and other tax avoidance schemes and the mention of Bono was for illustration purposes only.

The_Thing

They can't tax all earnings if they don't know about them. Cash-in-hand = no paper trail

liammur

The_Thing wrote: »

They can't tax all earnings if they don't know about them. Cash-in-hand = no paper trail

I believe our ex-taoiseach would agree fully!

CptMackey

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I do "love" this ridiculous "social welfare is too much" rubbish that's spouted here by those who clearly have never had to manage on it.

There was a thread in AH (I think) the other day that (just for fun) listed some of the things that could be done with the 30 BILLION (so far!) that's been spent propping up FF's banking and developer buddies... and you think a paltry €196 a week for someone who's unemployed is any sort of equal comparison?

I was made redundant just before christmas (ironically from one of those PS jobs that I worked damn hard in but was let go regardless as a result of the recruitment embargo), and since then I've spent every day applying for jobs that I think I may have SOME chance of getting - I'm in IT (Support/Server admin side of things) and it seems to me that right now I've a better chance of winning the lotto than getting a job. Even getting a REPLY to an application is an achievement (despite my 12 years of experience and qualifications). I got two replys in the year :mad:
Keep the head up, took me a year to get work, not in my field of experience but atleast I can pay the bills a bit easier now

In the meantime however, I still have to pay my bills. Yes that's right, just like everyone else I still have ESB, Gas, phone, food, rent (no mortgage thank god!), and a car loan to service every month and believe me after that's all done there's very little left - and only possible because I've renegotiated payments with most of them.

Sure I could probably just say "feck it" but unfortunately unlike an increasing number of people in this country, I was raised that you pay your bills and take responsibility for your actions - not whinge that it's someone else's fault and wait for someone else to bail me out (I'm looking at those calling for debt forgiveness. on mortgages they took out on ridiculously overvalued property KNOWING they couldn't afford them, or those who think they can just continue to borrow their way out indefinitely, like this guy).
Maybe it's because I grew up in a working class family in the 80's where we didn't have very much, and what we did have had to be saved and worked for - rather than just borrowed from the bank or handed to us - that I gained an appreciation for the value of money and responsibility.

I've been working since I finished college and have always paid my own way and my taxes etc, but one thing this whole experience has taught me that it doesn't matter, because if you find yourself needing that assistance (that you've been paying towards for years), you'll have to practically beg and debase yourself before they'll give you the pittance that it is. Ya they assume your a waster

This arrogant and condescending assumption by people that anyone on the dole MUST be some sort of lazy waster who can't be bothered getting off their ass REALLY pisses me off!!

It would do a lot of these keyboard economists good to open their eyes and see for themselves the real and tangible divide that exists between the haves and have nots in this country.

I was out of work for a year after being let go by a local authority but recently got a job and living on 196 a week is the hardest thing I ever had to do.

To all those people saying cut the dole, try living on 196 with bills to pay.
I never felt worse than when I was on the dole.

liammur

CptMackey wrote: »

I was out of work for a year after being let go by a local authority but recently got a job and living on 196 a week is the hardest thing I ever had to do.

To all those people saying cut the dole, try living on 196 with bills to pay.
I never felt worse than when I was on the dole.

Well done in securing your new job. Our welfare system is now a complex issue as it is imbedded in people's lives who previously had good jobs and have made commitments.
It undoubtedly needs reform.

People talking about slashing welfare are simply no more than wannabe economists with little or no understanding of the issues involved.

the_dark_side

The people took to the streets in Northern Ireland because they were physically driven to it... no one will take to the streets in the Republic as there is nothing physical to provoke a riot; one person recently threw a petrol bomb at the Dept of Finance (I think)... and it failed to ignite. A few people jostled the Gardai at the entrance of the Dail a couple of months ago.

Riot police killed a youth in Greece last year, this prompted full scale rioting... the same happened in Paris a few years earlier, nights of rioting and disturbances ensued. It would take the security forces to get physical here before there would be any significant disturbances, imo (and I hope it doesnt happen)

Idbatterim

I posted this in another thread earlier, but its more suited to here!

"I hear "when will we march in the streets" could I ask you who are people referring to exactly when they say this? The Irish people? the Public Servants? The unemployed? The Private Sector? The pensioners? The only ones who in anyway have anything to March about are the Private Sector and recently unemployed. Didnt you know the rest of them were being kept happy by borrowing 20 billion per annum, plus interest? " I reckon we could be in cloud cuckoo land at the moment, when we look back on 2009/10 it might look like we were in boomland compared to a few years down the road!

Mister men

Never. We are to lazy as a nation.

beagle001

Unfortunately we are not as a nation inclined to stand up and march on the streets,we prefer a good whinge and let it be.
Take a leaf from the recent foreign nationals,they demand everything and will persist until someone listens and addresses there issue.
Not knocking them for it we should be doing the very same,Irish citizens get a rough deal from the politicians because they know our psyche that we sit down and take it.

KELTICKNIGHTT

i dont see irish people marching on streets like in other countrys,we just talk too ourselfs,in pubs and on forums like this,only people that marched on street was old age pensioners ,thats it, be nice if we did but dont see it

MrMatisse

I'd say a lot of the people who would be marching have just emigrated and cant be bothered trying to fix this mess