WebMail - Maynooth SU policy doc

banquo

Next week Maynooth SU will release a research document about prospective 3rd-party mail hosting services to replace the NUIM WebMail. Google Apps and Hotmail / Live@Edu are the main focuses. All suggestions, contributions and arguments for and against are super welcome.

(It's worth mentioning that Union Council already voted unanimously that the SU back Google Apps in this debate, but I thought it should go up for public discussion anyway).

I forsee this thread consisting mostly of an debate between myself and Alt_Grrr....

cian1500ww

Said it on Facebook already but Gmail imo. I find it very hard to beat because its very reliable and it could be used with some of the other Google Apps in the future.
I haven't used the current webmail since they enabled forwarding a while back.

mickstupp

I've been thinking... and I can't quite grasp why Hotmail is even an option. Unless it's some sort of joke option? You know... fill out the alternatives with awful choices so people naturally gravitate towards the one you want?

cian1500ww

mickstupp wrote: »

I've been thinking... and I can't quite grasp why Hotmail is even an option. Unless it's some sort of joke option? You know... fill out the alternatives with awful choices so people naturally gravitate towards the one you want?

They should have made the alternative eircom webmail :rolleyes:

banquo

They're the two biggest companies pushing to be allowed to host university/college email in general.

If NUIM does decide to outsource it's email hosting, it will be (99.9999% likely) to one of these two companies. So I be looking for reasons for and against GMail and Hotmail.

Edit: ''Hotmail sucks'' is not something I can put in a document.

banquo

cian1500ww wrote: »

They should have made the alternative eircom webmail :rolleyes:

I think I would actually, like genuinely explode if that happened.

irish_goat

I couldn't care less...


(sorry Rob)

Liber8or

Excuse my ignorance, but I assume switching to a third-party provider will cost money, and a lot of it? Can you clarify on this?

banquo

Will all be in the doc. Should be free, if not saving money. Opinions on the individual services?

Ian Beale

Regardless of what's used I'll still forward it to my own gmail account. I've never missed any important mails and no delays in getting mails forwarded so don't really see the point.

banquo

Hotmail does not allow forwarding to an account that isn't Hotmail. So to forward email to any non-Hotmail account is impossible e.g. to GMail, Yahoo, etc.

Ian Beale

Can use outlook to work around that problem, perhaps you should post up the benefits for switching to google, apart from more storage what else is added?

banquo

Just leaving office. Will do.

TouchingVirus

I'd love to know what's prompting the change?

kenon

I don't get the hate for windows live mail (hotmail) tbh.

It works quite well for other colleges.

Liber8or

I don't understand why we need to change the email system.

If it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.

NUIM Webmail has worked flawlessly for the two years I have been in the college. Sure, it may not have a lot of fancy features like Gmail, but it doesn't need it.

You can send and receive emails, thats all a webmail system based in a University should do, and all that is required. NUIM Webmail is for NUIM affairs, be it student information or contact to and from lecturers. If people are 'troubled' by having to login every now and again for such information, then maybe they should question why they are in college?

Introducing a new and 'better' system will just drain human resources and, undoubtedly, incur disruption to normal services and for what - consolidation?

Perhaps, efforts should be invested into things like: finding alternative tea/coffee/snack providers to the library, rather than the expensive O'Briens? Or, suggesting ideas to the various Clubs and Societies encouraging more work in engaging students and getting involved?

To be honest, I really think changing the email system in NUIM is completely frivolous and a waste of time. We don't need something 'new', something apparently better. NUIM Webmail works, it works well and I don't see any problems in the foreseeable future with its ability to distribute and receive emails.

allandanyways

Liber8or wrote: »

Perhaps, efforts should be invested into things like: finding alternative tea/coffee/snack providers to the library, rather than the expensive O'Briens?

This. Sorry to go off topic for a minute but the price of food and drink on campus in general is absolutely ridiculous. I love gmail as much as the next person so that's my on-topic opinion, but I'm inclined to agree with Liber8or. There are many more pressing issues on campus that need to be dealt with other than the email system. *cough* extortion, 5 quid for a cup of tea and a sandwich *cough*

irish_goat

allandanyways wrote: »

*cough* extortion, 5 quid for a cup of tea and a sandwich *cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Kazuma

I would not be remotely comfortable with gmail handling my (at times, important) university related email. The system in place works now, with very very rare failure, so why is this even a question?

Kinski

Kazuma wrote: »

I would not be remotely comfortable with gmail handling my (at times, important) university related email. The system in place works now, with very very rare failure, so why is this even a question?

To save money, I imagine. I presume it will be cheaper to outsource webmail to someone like Google - the college must be providing equipment and employing people to maintain the current system; so if they outsource, all that will be handled by this third party provider. That's my guess anyway.

spoonface

Ian Beale wrote: »

Can use outlook to work around that problem, perhaps you should post up the benefits for switching to google, apart from more storage what else is added?

The idea is to get away from needing a client like Outlook on each person's PC so Outlook is not really a good enough option for forwarding i.e. it would only be (relatively) instant when the PC is turned on i.e. fairly useless as a forwarding option.

Gmail has better functionality and reduces the per-user cost to NUI in terms of staffing, support, licensing, hardware expenditure and server hosting.
It also allows them to pay as they go (allows scaling up or down) rather than needing to have capital expenditure on hardware which depreciates and can fail. With Gmail, capacity is only paid for by NIU as it is needed.

Ian Beale

spoonface wrote: »

The idea is to get away from needing a client like Outlook on each person's PC so Outlook is not really a good enough option for forwarding i.e. it would only be (relatively) instant when the PC is turned on i.e. fairly useless as a forwarding option.

Gmail has better functionality and reduces the per-user cost to NUI in terms of staffing, support, licensing, hardware expenditure and server hosting.
It also allows them to pay as they go (allows scaling up or down) rather than needing to have capital expenditure on hardware which depreciates and can fail. With Gmail, capacity is only paid for by NIU as it is needed.

You don't currently need a client to forward mails, I suggested using outlook to forward mails if the college switched to hotmail. If I remember correctly didn't the college buy 2 very high powered servers for running moodle and the other services? Even if they do switch it to another host I doubt the computer center staff would be decreased, it's not like the only look after the mail.

TouchingVirus

You don't need to use an email client like Outlook, Thunderbird or whatever to access your mail. NUI Maynooth provide the webmail interface - just like Google does. If you wish to use IMAP/POP3 via a local email client then you can. You can set up mail forwarding via the webmail interface if you want your NUIM email to go somewhere else instead.

The cost for Google Apps appears free for education, but you will still need equivalent functionality of the Copperfasten spam filter - Google are offering this at a cost of $12 per user - so for 8000 email accounts (approximate number of staff & students) that's $96,000 per year from what I can see.

There are no dedicated webmail staff members in the computer centre - there is a systems team. No team member will get made redundant if NUIM ceases offering an email solution, there are little to no savings to be made on staff/support.

Hardware expenditure - there are dedicated servers for webmail, just like there are for file storage. Yes, this requires hardware expenditure but it's amazing how cheap it is to build a very effective mail system - it doesn't require powerhouse computers.

Licensing - I honestly have no idea what the license costs for Copperfasten or My Calendar Express from Sun Microsystems/Oracle are.

Lets take it that the hardware needs to be upgraded every 3 years - you're talking 225,000 euro with Google Apps. And lets just say the licensing is costing NUIM 50k per year, there's no way NUIM are spending 75,000 euro (225k-150k licensing) just to run a mail server.

Now lets take into account support - When something goes wrong, the Computer Centre fix it. Webmail is one of those critical services that people get called in on a Saturday to fix should it all go belly up. There are no external companies involved. We don't have to wait for Google Support to get back to them, and anybody who's tried google support knows what a pain in the ass this can be. NUIM can tweak stuff to their own setup and basically have the run of the pen. This isn't so by swapping to any other service provider.

Should something happen with HEAnet and external connectivity is lost, then NUIM loses internet. However it's still entirely possibly if you're located on campus to email people - NUIM to NUIM email never leaves the internal network. This also makes it more secure and reliable for sending important mails, there are less hurdles for it to get lost - essentialy the mail server is sending stuff to itself.

I have to agree with some posters here - the Webmail on campus is fine, it's not failed that I've noticed in a long time. This whole initiative strikes me as change for change's sake, especially when there's nothing inherantly wrong with the systems in place.

Liber8or

TouchingVirus wrote: »

This whole initiative strikes me as change for change's sake, especially when there's nothing inherantly wrong with the systems in place.

Your entire post is excellent and offers information on costs - thanks. However, your final point really hits the nail on the head. Seems to me, that grand plans and superfluous ideas (should they succeed) are created to bolster a C.V rather than genuinely achieve progress or benefit the people affected by them.

To be honest, I can't see the University adopting this transition anyway. The cost of transferring all those email accounts, establishing a certain contract with Google and maintaining a steady change-over is too costly, both financially and practically. NUIM Webmail works, its here to stay - hopefully.

mp3guy

I'm with Liber8or and TouchingVirus, it's totally unnecessary.

I think both of them bring up some really great points.

Blue_Light

In my five or so years in Maynooth, I've never had a problem with my Webmail, ever. I just don't see the point of looking for a solution to a problem thats not there. There are things in Maynooth that are actually broken, or missing, and to be honest it'd be a lot better use of resources to be looking at those issues instead. I just don't understand why it looks like they're trying to make work for the University that just isn't needed, while there are other things needing to be done.

Nision

First of all, lets deal with this "web mail is fine" notion.
Yes it sends and receives emails, (with massive delays if you add attachments). But email has moved way beyond that now,
This change IS coming, its a question of which way GMail or hotmail we go.

For example as standard now there's a spell check, calender that syncs with events, lectures etc, Google Docs, Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account, the fact that people only need to check one account, the ability to keep ones @nuim.ie address after graduation etc etc

Look at the best University's etc across the world, this is happening regardless of wheter we as students examine our options and make our input heard in the decision.

Doing this now means we can have an input into the decision, the days of "webmail" are numbered regardless.

Nision

Also comparing the urgency of this issue to other things that the SU has zero control over is mind numbingly stupid.

You think the food on campus is too dear eh?

THERE ARE FLOODS IN PAKISTAN AND CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA!
That has to be a bigger priority than O'Briens prices?

Therel always be problems, this is one the SU can do something about before it becomes a real one.
Fair play to Rob for the pre-emptive strike and being proactive rather than waiting for a future SU to have to react.

funky penguin

Calm down, you'll stress yourself over nothing.

cian1500ww

funky penguin wrote: »

Calm down, you'll stress yourself over nothing.

Sorry, couldn't resist

Liber8or

Nision wrote: »

Therel always be problems, this is one the SU can do something about before it becomes a real one.

Can you do me one favour - identify the problem with NUIM Webmail please.

Tell me exactly how it is malfunctioning, or running faulty? Tell me what imperative or necessary features detrimental to student learning are needed to improve student life.

Consolidating services for the sake of laziness is not an excuse. This will not be a free service, unless ofcourse you want Ads being sent to your new GMail/NUIM webmail account. Also, disruption in transferring (initially) over 7,000 email accounts currently being used. Then, ofcourse, the other x amount of accounts from Alumni or Staff.

Change/new does not mean better. We don't need this. We need other areas to be examined, areas which actually affect student's lives. Not a fancy calender or spellchecker...