WebMail - Maynooth SU policy doc

banquo

Next week Maynooth SU will release a research document about prospective 3rd-party mail hosting services to replace the NUIM WebMail. Google Apps and Hotmail / Live@Edu are the main focuses. All suggestions, contributions and arguments for and against are super welcome.

(It's worth mentioning that Union Council already voted unanimously that the SU back Google Apps in this debate, but I thought it should go up for public discussion anyway).

I forsee this thread consisting mostly of an debate between myself and Alt_Grrr....

cian1500ww

Said it on Facebook already but Gmail imo. I find it very hard to beat because its very reliable and it could be used with some of the other Google Apps in the future.
I haven't used the current webmail since they enabled forwarding a while back.

mickstupp

I've been thinking... and I can't quite grasp why Hotmail is even an option. Unless it's some sort of joke option? You know... fill out the alternatives with awful choices so people naturally gravitate towards the one you want?

cian1500ww

mickstupp wrote: »

I've been thinking... and I can't quite grasp why Hotmail is even an option. Unless it's some sort of joke option? You know... fill out the alternatives with awful choices so people naturally gravitate towards the one you want?

They should have made the alternative eircom webmail :rolleyes:

banquo

They're the two biggest companies pushing to be allowed to host university/college email in general.

If NUIM does decide to outsource it's email hosting, it will be (99.9999% likely) to one of these two companies. So I be looking for reasons for and against GMail and Hotmail.

Edit: ''Hotmail sucks'' is not something I can put in a document.

banquo

cian1500ww wrote: »

They should have made the alternative eircom webmail :rolleyes:

I think I would actually, like genuinely explode if that happened.

irish_goat

I couldn't care less...


(sorry Rob)

Liber8or

Excuse my ignorance, but I assume switching to a third-party provider will cost money, and a lot of it? Can you clarify on this?

banquo

Will all be in the doc. Should be free, if not saving money. Opinions on the individual services?

Ian Beale

Regardless of what's used I'll still forward it to my own gmail account. I've never missed any important mails and no delays in getting mails forwarded so don't really see the point.

banquo

Hotmail does not allow forwarding to an account that isn't Hotmail. So to forward email to any non-Hotmail account is impossible e.g. to GMail, Yahoo, etc.

Ian Beale

Can use outlook to work around that problem, perhaps you should post up the benefits for switching to google, apart from more storage what else is added?

banquo

Just leaving office. Will do.

TouchingVirus

I'd love to know what's prompting the change?

kenon

I don't get the hate for windows live mail (hotmail) tbh.

It works quite well for other colleges.

Liber8or

I don't understand why we need to change the email system.

If it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.

NUIM Webmail has worked flawlessly for the two years I have been in the college. Sure, it may not have a lot of fancy features like Gmail, but it doesn't need it.

You can send and receive emails, thats all a webmail system based in a University should do, and all that is required. NUIM Webmail is for NUIM affairs, be it student information or contact to and from lecturers. If people are 'troubled' by having to login every now and again for such information, then maybe they should question why they are in college?

Introducing a new and 'better' system will just drain human resources and, undoubtedly, incur disruption to normal services and for what - consolidation?

Perhaps, efforts should be invested into things like: finding alternative tea/coffee/snack providers to the library, rather than the expensive O'Briens? Or, suggesting ideas to the various Clubs and Societies encouraging more work in engaging students and getting involved?

To be honest, I really think changing the email system in NUIM is completely frivolous and a waste of time. We don't need something 'new', something apparently better. NUIM Webmail works, it works well and I don't see any problems in the foreseeable future with its ability to distribute and receive emails.

allandanyways

Liber8or wrote: »

Perhaps, efforts should be invested into things like: finding alternative tea/coffee/snack providers to the library, rather than the expensive O'Briens?

This. Sorry to go off topic for a minute but the price of food and drink on campus in general is absolutely ridiculous. I love gmail as much as the next person so that's my on-topic opinion, but I'm inclined to agree with Liber8or. There are many more pressing issues on campus that need to be dealt with other than the email system. *cough* extortion, 5 quid for a cup of tea and a sandwich *cough*

irish_goat

allandanyways wrote: »

*cough* extortion, 5 quid for a cup of tea and a sandwich *cough*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Kazuma

I would not be remotely comfortable with gmail handling my (at times, important) university related email. The system in place works now, with very very rare failure, so why is this even a question?

Kinski

Kazuma wrote: »

I would not be remotely comfortable with gmail handling my (at times, important) university related email. The system in place works now, with very very rare failure, so why is this even a question?

To save money, I imagine. I presume it will be cheaper to outsource webmail to someone like Google - the college must be providing equipment and employing people to maintain the current system; so if they outsource, all that will be handled by this third party provider. That's my guess anyway.

spoonface

Ian Beale wrote: »

Can use outlook to work around that problem, perhaps you should post up the benefits for switching to google, apart from more storage what else is added?

The idea is to get away from needing a client like Outlook on each person's PC so Outlook is not really a good enough option for forwarding i.e. it would only be (relatively) instant when the PC is turned on i.e. fairly useless as a forwarding option.

Gmail has better functionality and reduces the per-user cost to NUI in terms of staffing, support, licensing, hardware expenditure and server hosting.
It also allows them to pay as they go (allows scaling up or down) rather than needing to have capital expenditure on hardware which depreciates and can fail. With Gmail, capacity is only paid for by NIU as it is needed.

Ian Beale

spoonface wrote: »

The idea is to get away from needing a client like Outlook on each person's PC so Outlook is not really a good enough option for forwarding i.e. it would only be (relatively) instant when the PC is turned on i.e. fairly useless as a forwarding option.

Gmail has better functionality and reduces the per-user cost to NUI in terms of staffing, support, licensing, hardware expenditure and server hosting.
It also allows them to pay as they go (allows scaling up or down) rather than needing to have capital expenditure on hardware which depreciates and can fail. With Gmail, capacity is only paid for by NIU as it is needed.

You don't currently need a client to forward mails, I suggested using outlook to forward mails if the college switched to hotmail. If I remember correctly didn't the college buy 2 very high powered servers for running moodle and the other services? Even if they do switch it to another host I doubt the computer center staff would be decreased, it's not like the only look after the mail.

TouchingVirus

You don't need to use an email client like Outlook, Thunderbird or whatever to access your mail. NUI Maynooth provide the webmail interface - just like Google does. If you wish to use IMAP/POP3 via a local email client then you can. You can set up mail forwarding via the webmail interface if you want your NUIM email to go somewhere else instead.

The cost for Google Apps appears free for education, but you will still need equivalent functionality of the Copperfasten spam filter - Google are offering this at a cost of $12 per user - so for 8000 email accounts (approximate number of staff & students) that's $96,000 per year from what I can see.

There are no dedicated webmail staff members in the computer centre - there is a systems team. No team member will get made redundant if NUIM ceases offering an email solution, there are little to no savings to be made on staff/support.

Hardware expenditure - there are dedicated servers for webmail, just like there are for file storage. Yes, this requires hardware expenditure but it's amazing how cheap it is to build a very effective mail system - it doesn't require powerhouse computers.

Licensing - I honestly have no idea what the license costs for Copperfasten or My Calendar Express from Sun Microsystems/Oracle are.

Lets take it that the hardware needs to be upgraded every 3 years - you're talking 225,000 euro with Google Apps. And lets just say the licensing is costing NUIM 50k per year, there's no way NUIM are spending 75,000 euro (225k-150k licensing) just to run a mail server.

Now lets take into account support - When something goes wrong, the Computer Centre fix it. Webmail is one of those critical services that people get called in on a Saturday to fix should it all go belly up. There are no external companies involved. We don't have to wait for Google Support to get back to them, and anybody who's tried google support knows what a pain in the ass this can be. NUIM can tweak stuff to their own setup and basically have the run of the pen. This isn't so by swapping to any other service provider.

Should something happen with HEAnet and external connectivity is lost, then NUIM loses internet. However it's still entirely possibly if you're located on campus to email people - NUIM to NUIM email never leaves the internal network. This also makes it more secure and reliable for sending important mails, there are less hurdles for it to get lost - essentialy the mail server is sending stuff to itself.

I have to agree with some posters here - the Webmail on campus is fine, it's not failed that I've noticed in a long time. This whole initiative strikes me as change for change's sake, especially when there's nothing inherantly wrong with the systems in place.

Liber8or

TouchingVirus wrote: »

This whole initiative strikes me as change for change's sake, especially when there's nothing inherantly wrong with the systems in place.

Your entire post is excellent and offers information on costs - thanks. However, your final point really hits the nail on the head. Seems to me, that grand plans and superfluous ideas (should they succeed) are created to bolster a C.V rather than genuinely achieve progress or benefit the people affected by them.

To be honest, I can't see the University adopting this transition anyway. The cost of transferring all those email accounts, establishing a certain contract with Google and maintaining a steady change-over is too costly, both financially and practically. NUIM Webmail works, its here to stay - hopefully.

mp3guy

I'm with Liber8or and TouchingVirus, it's totally unnecessary.

I think both of them bring up some really great points.

Blue_Light

In my five or so years in Maynooth, I've never had a problem with my Webmail, ever. I just don't see the point of looking for a solution to a problem thats not there. There are things in Maynooth that are actually broken, or missing, and to be honest it'd be a lot better use of resources to be looking at those issues instead. I just don't understand why it looks like they're trying to make work for the University that just isn't needed, while there are other things needing to be done.

Nision

First of all, lets deal with this "web mail is fine" notion.
Yes it sends and receives emails, (with massive delays if you add attachments). But email has moved way beyond that now,
This change IS coming, its a question of which way GMail or hotmail we go.

For example as standard now there's a spell check, calender that syncs with events, lectures etc, Google Docs, Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account, the fact that people only need to check one account, the ability to keep ones @nuim.ie address after graduation etc etc

Look at the best University's etc across the world, this is happening regardless of wheter we as students examine our options and make our input heard in the decision.

Doing this now means we can have an input into the decision, the days of "webmail" are numbered regardless.

Nision

Also comparing the urgency of this issue to other things that the SU has zero control over is mind numbingly stupid.

You think the food on campus is too dear eh?

THERE ARE FLOODS IN PAKISTAN AND CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA!
That has to be a bigger priority than O'Briens prices?

Therel always be problems, this is one the SU can do something about before it becomes a real one.
Fair play to Rob for the pre-emptive strike and being proactive rather than waiting for a future SU to have to react.

funky penguin

Calm down, you'll stress yourself over nothing.

cian1500ww

funky penguin wrote: »

Calm down, you'll stress yourself over nothing.

Sorry, couldn't resist

Liber8or

Nision wrote: »

Therel always be problems, this is one the SU can do something about before it becomes a real one.

Can you do me one favour - identify the problem with NUIM Webmail please.

Tell me exactly how it is malfunctioning, or running faulty? Tell me what imperative or necessary features detrimental to student learning are needed to improve student life.

Consolidating services for the sake of laziness is not an excuse. This will not be a free service, unless ofcourse you want Ads being sent to your new GMail/NUIM webmail account. Also, disruption in transferring (initially) over 7,000 email accounts currently being used. Then, ofcourse, the other x amount of accounts from Alumni or Staff.

Change/new does not mean better. We don't need this. We need other areas to be examined, areas which actually affect student's lives. Not a fancy calender or spellchecker...

banquo

I'm not getting involved in the debate over GMail vs Hotmail or Webmail, but I'll just clear up a few concerns:

1. It saves money. Lots of it. I don't know the exact figure yet but other Irish unis have saved 70+K a year. There is absolute zero cost in terms of hardware or anything else (we host it ourselves at the moment, so this is another thing we save on)

2. Webmail isn't ''broken'' - it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is to send and receive emails. GMail and Hotmail also send and receive emails, but include other optional features which many could find useful (I won't list them here) So it's not a question of 'fixing' a problem but providing a better service for less money.

3. This issue and others (eg parking, food prices on campus, etc) are mutually exclusive. So doing this doesn't somehow detract from pursuits in those other areas. They're completely different. This is purely about the email service, though other functionalities should be taken into account also.

4. There is no disruption to the user in the changeover. You log in one day with the same name and password and all your emails are there, just with a different interface.

I'm asking people to choose a preference between the two email giants. Although if someone wants to tout actual user-related reasons why Webmail provides a better service to students then that's appropriate too.

Edit:

Liber8or wrote: »

We need other areas to be examined, areas which actually affect student's lives. Not a fancy calender

The current system has a calendar. I'll call the Computer Centre and have them scrap it for you*.

*could not resist

irish_goat

If it saves money go for it.

mp3guy

banquo wrote: »

3. This issue and others (eg parking, food prices on campus, etc) are mutually exclusive. So doing this doesn't somehow detract from pursuits in those other areas. They're completely different. This is purely about the email service, though other functionalities should be taken into account also.

As mutual exclusion is a term that is often used in computer science, I don't think your use of it is entirely correct. :pac:

But anyway. Is a change in email service definitely going to happen or is there a chance it won't and we'll still have the good old service until the next proposal for change?

banquo

As mutual exclusion is a term that is often used in computer science, I don't think your use of it is entirely correct. :pac:

Oi! My use of it is perfect.

mp3guy wrote: »

But anyway. Is a change in email service definitely going to happen or is there a chance it won't and we'll still have the good old service until the next proposal for change?

The second one, although I believe that (eventually) all Irish unis will outsource mail to save money. This is long term, but in the event of a change I want feedback on to what. GMAIL OR HOTMAIL.

cian1500ww

Will the current spam filter still be used if we change or will it switchover to Gmail or Hotmail's spam filter as, in all fairness to it, I've never had any spam in my nuim webmail account?

banquo

cian1500ww wrote: »

Will the current spam filter still be used if we change or will it switchover to Gmail or Hotmail's spam filter as, in all fairness to it, I've never had any spam in my nuim webmail account?

People either seem to get loads or none at all in their webmail! I've spoken with folks who can't find their actual email for spam, and folks who've literally never gotten a thing. I guess it depends on their browsing habits, I don't really know.

To answer you're question: we'd get either Hotmail's or GMail's spam filter, whichever service we hypothetically chose.

Miss Lockhart

If the move will save money then that's a good thing, provided the new service will work well. I have major problems with how slow the Webmail is to upload attachements. It takes anything from 5 to 15 minutes to upload a simple PowerPoint presentation. Any other email I've used takes a few seconds. It's a pain.

However, I don't know enough about GMail or Hotmail to say which one is better. I have always used Hotmail and I just forward everything to it. It does exactly what I need (sends and receives email efficiently) so I've no interest in changing that. I dread logging in to Webmail if I want to send something from my college address.

Everyone I know seems to love GMail though, so it must be doing something right!

Nision wrote: »

Also comparing the urgency of this issue to other things that the SU has zero control over is mind numbingly stupid.

You think the food on campus is too dear eh?

THERE ARE FLOODS IN PAKISTAN AND CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA!
That has to be a bigger priority than O'Briens prices?

Therel always be problems, this is one the SU can do something about before it becomes a real one.
Fair play to Rob for the pre-emptive strike and being proactive rather than waiting for a future SU to have to react.

Why bring floods and famine into a conversation about what the SU has control over? I wouldn't be so quick to accuse others of being "mind numbingly stupid"!

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in the debate over GMail vs Hotmail or Webmail, but I'll just clear up a few concerns:

1. It saves money. Lots of it. I don't know the exact figure yet but other Irish unis have saved 70+K a year. There is absolute zero cost in terms of hardware or anything else (we host it ourselves at the moment, so this is another thing we save on)


2. Webmail isn't ''broken'' - it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is to send and receive emails. GMail and Hotmail also send and receive emails, but include other optional features which many could find useful (I won't list them here) So it's not a question of 'fixing' a problem but providing a better service for less money.

I very much doubt that figure (I worked for a company thats big in the messaging services space (SMS, e-mail, IM)) nobody can make a saving that vast, unless they ran the email server on the blood of endangered animals

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The cost for Google Apps appears free for education, but you will still need equivalent functionality of the Copperfasten spam filter - Google are offering this at a cost of $12 per user - so for 8000 email accounts (approximate number of staff & students) that's $96,000 per year from what I can see.

Hardware expenditure - there are dedicated servers for webmail, just like there are for file storage. Yes, this requires hardware expenditure but it's amazing how cheap it is to build a very effective mail system - it doesn't require powerhouse computers.

Licensing - I honestly have no idea what the license costs for Copperfasten or My Calendar Express from Sun Microsystems/Oracle are.

Lets take it that the hardware needs to be upgraded every 3 years - you're talking 225,000 euro with Google Apps. And lets just say the licensing is costing NUIM 50k per year, there's no way NUIM are spending 75,000 euro (225k-150k licensing) just to run a mail server.
.

And it seems it would be more expensive to throw away the current email service in the middle of its life and replace it with something else. And since the university doesn't have any money these days, it seems like a bit of a waste

Nision wrote: »

First of all, lets deal with this "web mail is fine" notion.
Yes it sends and receives emails, (with massive delays if you add attachments). But email has moved way beyond that now,
This change IS coming, its a question of which way GMail or hotmail we go.

For example as standard now there's a spell check, calender that syncs with events, lectures etc, Google Docs, Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account, the fact that people only need to check one account, the ability to keep ones @nuim.ie address after graduation etc etc

I'll let you in on a little secret, email has changed very little (if at all) in the last 20 years, sure the bells and whistles around it have changed, but email is still email.

The current webmail isn't sexy, but it works.
And from what I've heard from the computer centre in the past is, that the change isn't really coming. since nobody wants to hand over a vital part of the campus communications system to an outside company.

Nision wrote: »

Look at the best University's etc across the world, this is happening regardless of wheter we as students examine our options and make our input heard in the decision.

I await your list of the "best University's", from what criteria they have decided on this change, usually publicized "case studies" are sexed up beyond reignition (Just look at Microsoft's "Get the Facts" Campaign)

Nision wrote: »

Also comparing the urgency of this issue to other things that the SU has zero control over is mind numbingly stupid.

As the SU has no say over how the Computer Centre run the network, ergo, this is discussion is also, mind numbingly stupid.

Nision wrote: »

Fair play to Rob for the pre-emptive strike and being proactive rather than waiting for a future SU to have to react.

more like, Fair play to Rob for trying to badger the University to wasting money on a new email system.

TouchingVirus

For example as standard now there's a spell check, calender that syncs with events, lectures etc, Google Docs, Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account, the fact that people only need to check one account, the ability to keep ones @nuim.ie address after graduation etc etc

Spellchecks are provided by browsers too you know.

A calendar that syncs with events - how is this anything to do with webmail?

Google Docs - again, relevancy?

Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account/check the one place to receive all your email - email clients provide this functionality and have done for years.

Keeping your @nuim.ie address after graduation - No, You move off to xxx@alumni.nuim.ie - this is already a Google Apps based service.

It's funny how alumni.nuim.ie is a Google Apps based service, yet for some reason the Computer Centre haven't moved all the way over. I'd like to think the Computer Centre done their homework and decided against the move.

banquo wrote: »

To answer you're question: we'd get either Hotmail's or GMail's spam filter, whichever service we hypothetically chose.

Not from what I can gather. If by default there was spam/AV filtering then why would google be hawking Postini in their own FAQ?

Google Apps for Education is free. We plan to keep the core offering of Google Apps Education Edition free. This includes user accounts for incoming students in the future. As you may know, Google was founded by a research project at Stanford University, and this is just one way we can give back to the educational community.

......

If you would like to purchase Google Message Security and Compliance for filtering or archiving purposes, this will have a per user fee depending on the services you choose. Each package is listed here.

http://www.google.com/postini/email.html - $12 per user

Hardware
Also, I predict the hardware currently in use to provide email services wouldn't be decommissioned, it would be added into other services. And when it fails, it would be replaced. There wouldn't be any savings on hardware as a result.

Spam
The people who always get spam really need to talk to the Computer Centre and see what's wrong, when it works right the settings are so damn good it stops real emails sometimes, which is why I'd suggest setting a weekly report be delivered to you (via https://copperfasten.nuim.ie/)

4. There is no disruption to the user in the changeover. You log in one day with the same name and password and all your emails are there, just with a different interface.

There'll be disruption, planned or unplanned it will happen. No matter what integrity checks are done, something will go wrong.


Support/Changeover

Apparently Google recommend the changeover should take 6 weeks. Since the Systems Team would be pretty stretched as is, who's going to handle the changeover? Are they going to have to hire extra bodies to work on this changeover fulltime or let the current systems die in a hazy mess while the current team works on it?

Who's going to now support not only Gmail, but Google Docs and whatever other applications the computer centre add in? There were people complaining about how useless the Computer Centre were in another thread on here, can you imagine now if they don't hire more people to support the Google Apps? Oh, and when something does go properly wrong, who do you call? What will you say when Google take 2 days to get back to you on an issue you consider critical (and let's face it, everybody with a problem thinks it's critical).

When it comes to support you get what you pay for ...and free, well, I'm sure you get the picture. Support and Administration is a pretty big issue, one you folks seem to be overlooking slightly.

It's boiling down to "Google Apps is pretty, I want it". You can have it, but why should the Computer Centre adapt something when there are valid alternatives in place?


Valid user-based reasons why not
Campus based users will always have access to their email even when HEAnet has a hiccup.

Sending mail from NUIM->NUIM is quick, fast, doesn't pass through spam filters, and basically cannot get lost. It's also the most secure.

Trust. Grab your tin foil hats gang because do you trust Google? You get nothing for nothing in this world, so what do you think Google are pushing this initiative for? Here's a few choice excerpts

Terms wrote:

1.7. Data Transfer. As part of providing the Service, Google may store and process Customer Data in the United States or any other country in which Google or its agents maintain facilities. By using the Services, Customer consents to this transfer, processing and storage of Customer Data.

I know Google processes data for GMail to target ads, but why process data for Education, after all there are no ads in Apps for Education

3.4 No Fees. Google may charge a fee for the Services after the initial term, and may charge a fee for new functionality or optional enhancements that may be added by Google to the Service. Google may also offer a premium version of the Services for a fee. Prior to Google charging Customer as stated in this section, Google and Customer will negotiate either a new agreement or an amendment to this Agreement.

The initial term is 4 years, after which Google may or may not charge. Not exactly clear cut. So in 4 years we may have significant costs because we might not agree to the new terms and opt out. Now you have given you users nice features and have to take them away, you can imagine they'll not be best pleased. And now you've got to buy the hardware because the services are coming back here too, ouch!

American Law - what? We've got to adhere to both US and Irish law now, lovely. And we all know the US is a fairly ligitous place, there are laws and regulations for everything.

The biggest reason why not is that the Computer Centre offers a single point of user-support. You can call them, you can go over and see them. Try calling Google. The buck stops with the CC, it doesn't rest with somebody on US time with a support queue as long as your arm so when the sh*t hits the fan, they will fix it.

banquo

Perhaps my original question was too complicated.

Do you prefer GMail or Hotmail as an email service?

TouchingVirus

banquo wrote: »

Perhaps my original question was too complicated.

Do you prefer GMail or Hotmail as an email service?

That was not your original question..

Next week Maynooth SU will release a research document about prospective 3rd-party mail hosting services to replace the NUIM WebMail. Google Apps and Hotmail / Live@Edu are the main focuses.

Google Apps and Hotmail/Live@Edu are the main focuses - i.e. not the only ones

All suggestions, contributions and arguments for and against are super welcome

Arguments for and against what? Each of the respective hosts? Well my arguments against Google Apps are valid for Hotmail/Live@Edu too. Now it seems that what you meant was "Arguments for and against each service in respect of the other"

Can I ask why you're not entertaining the other points raised in the thread though? Is it a head-down bullthrough approach or something? Or do you think they are non-issues?

banquo

OK, I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into this, but this is crazy. Dude, there are just no facts in any of your arguments. Just paranoid inferences and questions phrased to sound like inevitable occurences.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I'd like to think the Computer Centre done their homework and decided against the move.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Not from what I can gather.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

If by default there was spam/AV filtering then why would google be hawking Postini in their own FAQ?

Postini is optional super-crazy-extra level protection, not required.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Also, I predict the hardware currently in use to provide email services wouldn't be decommissioned, it would be added into other services.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The people who always get spam really need to talk to the Computer Centre and see what's wrong, when it works right the settings are so damn good it stops real emails sometimes.

That IS good!

TouchingVirus wrote: »

There'll be disruption, planned or unplanned it will happen. No matter what integrity checks are done, something will go wrong.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Apparently Google recommend the changeover should take 6 weeks. Since the Systems Team would be pretty stretched as is, who's going to handle the changeover?

Google.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Are they going to have to hire extra bodies to work on this changeover fulltime or let the current systems die in a hazy mess while the current team works on it?

No extra hiring. So no ''dying in a hazy mess.''

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Who's going to now support not only Gmail, but Google Docs and whatever other applications the computer centre add in?

Google.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

There were people complaining about how useless the Computer Centre were in another thread on here, can you imagine now if they don't hire more people to support the Google Apps?

Extra hiring not required.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Oh, and when something does go properly wrong, who do you call? What will you say when Google take 2 days to get back to you on an issue you consider critical (and let's face it, everybody with a problem thinks it's critical).

Have it here in the SU. No problems.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

When it comes to support you get what you pay for ...and free, well, I'm sure you get the picture. Support and Administration is a pretty big issue, one you folks seem to be overlooking slightly.

Not true.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

It's boiling down to "Google Apps is pretty, I want it". You can have it, but why should the Computer Centre adapt something when there are valid alternatives in place?

Google Apps is unbelievably useful, and I do want it. The world does not revolve around the Computer Centre. They work for the University which, funded with tax money, works for the students.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Campus based users will always have access to their email even when HEAnet has a hiccup.

So 1/8 of NUIM students will have access to their email during the very short time that HEAnet is down, which pretty much never happens. Not a huge selling point.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I know Google processes data for GMail to target ads, but why process data for Education, after all there are no ads in Apps for Education

No ads is... good? No?

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The initial term is 4 years, after which Google may or may not charge. Not exactly clear cut.

There are no facts in this statement. To quote Google, "Google Apps for Education is free. We plan to keep the core offering of Google Apps Education Edition free. This includes user accounts for incoming students in the future."

TouchingVirus wrote: »

So in 4 years we may have significant costs because we might not agree to the new terms and opt out.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

American Law - what? We've got to adhere to both US and Irish law now, lovely.

I don't know where to begin with this.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The biggest reason why not is that the Computer Centre offers a single point of user-support. You can call them, you can go over and see them. Try calling Google. The buck stops with the CC, it doesn't rest with somebody on US time with a support queue as long as your arm so when the sh*t hits the fan, they will fix it.

In seven years, GMail has been down for 1 hour.

Make an objective list of genuine concerns that's free of adjectives and I'll answer them. Seriously. I'm happy to.

Back OT.

Alt_Grrr

to effectively sum all of your rebuttals up in one go

"I don't believe you *fingers in ears* nah nah nah nah nah nah"

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

In seven years, GMail has been down for 1 hour.

First Off, Gmail was launched in 2004 (6 years ago)

and on average its down for about 30 minutes every month
due its 99.9% uptime (rather then then 99.999% uptime demanded of outsourced email firms)
Wikipedia Link

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

I don't know where to begin with this.

In fact TouchingVirus is correct, as much as it pains me to say that

14.10 Governing Law. This Agreement is governed by California law, excluding that state’s choice of law rules. FOR ANY DISPUTE RELATING TO THIS AGREEMENT, THE PARTIES CONSENT TO PERSONAL JURISDICTION IN, AND THE EXCLUSIVE VENUE OF, THE COURTS IN SANTA CLARA COUNTY, CALIFORNIA.

from Terms of Service of Google Apps for Education

banquo

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

First Off, Gmail was launched in 2004 (6 years ago)

and on average its down for about 30 minutes every month
due its 99.9% uptime (rather then then 99.999% uptime demanded of sourced email firms)
Wikipedia Link

Distortion, as that 99.9% figure is for GMail and not Google Apps, which is what's proposed. Google Apps was and is unaffected by GMail downtime.

The 12 hours a year maintenance is correct, though it happens at night, like most maintenance. It's worth mentioning that all mail services have scheduled downtime, as our own Webmail has had.

Edit: As for the law, it's the same issue with any software, including Microsoft Office on all campus PCs. We have to follow the law of the country/region the software was patented in. If that's a reason to say no, then we'll all be using Linux* on campus.

*I know you'd love this

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

Distortion, as that 99.9% figure is for GMail and not Google Apps, which is what's proposed. Google Apps was and is unaffected by GMail downtime.

The 12 hours a year maintenance is correct, though it happens at night, like most maintenance. It's worth mentioning that all mail services have scheduled downtime, as our own Webmail has had.

Nope, Google even advertise the apps service as having 99.9% uptime (See Link)

in a calender year Google Apps is down for about 8.7 hours

TouchingVirus

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

In fact TouchingVirus is correct, as much as it pains me to say that

Christ, don't hold back

banquo wrote: »

OK, I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into this, but this is crazy. Dude, there are just no facts in any of your arguments. Just paranoid inferences and questions phrased to sound like inevitable occurences.

You clearly have no experience of working in environments at any other level than as an end user if you think there are no facts in my arguments. I, on the other hand, have several years experience at stuff like this. I have seen in great detail and been involved in several major migrations to other platforms. I am not claiming to be top dog at this stuff, there are others out there whose entire livelihood is based on costing migrations and implementing them, but I do know what I'm talking about.


*I hate that boards doesn't allow embedded quotes, so I'll overuse 'regarding'*

Regarding Postini being a super-crazy extra level of protection - it's entire function is already provided for by current systems. Without it we are swapping to an inferior service in my opinion.

Regarding existing servers being not being decommissioned - what else do you think will happen to them? They are an investment, an asset. You can never have too many assets in IT when it comes to servers. If you can afford to buy it you can afford to keep it. NUIM would get nothing for selling it. It will be added elsewhere, changing it's role to a backup DHCP server, another file-storage server, a backup LDAP server etc. And once this happens it will not be decommissioned. Redundancy is awesome.


Regarding my assertion that Copperfasten is so good it can stop real mail - I've been using GMail since the early days, when it was invite only and each invitee got only 1 invite to pay it forward, not 50, and not the everybody-come-on-in approach. I still have 4 gmail-based accounts. Every once it a while I'll find an email in there that is also real. That's what happens when you base things in probability.


Regarding stuff going wrong I think you're just being pedantic here. Things go wrong, it's a common fact. The best laid plans of mice and men.. Problems happen. Problems migrating major services definitely happen. Their knock on effect can be minimal, but they will happen.


Google will not migrate NUI Maynooth to Google Apps for Education. There is a whole section on the Google Apps for Education FAQ about a six-week plan to migrate that it suggests system administrators for the college use. The migration will be done by the Computer Centre and it will be done by the Systems Team - a grand total of 7 people, two of whom are networks only, another two who manage the DHCP/DNS servers and do a whole other bunch of stuff, and I have no idea what the other three do to be honest but I'm sure they're not idle.


You have Google Apps in the SU, and I have Google Apps on my own domain. No major problems here either. There are maybe 10 people in the SU. I've just got me on my domain. NUIM has 8000 users. Somebody will need support on issues like uploaded Documents to Google Docs, how to use the Calendar, why their event isn't showing up, they don't seem to be syncing etc etc. Not every user in this college is a power-user, many people are nearly out of their depth checking email. Who do they get in touch with for assistance? User Support in the Computer Centre is their first port of call. This is also not the only thing User Support has to provide support for, extra hiring may be required and almost definitely will be required in the short term around the time the Migration takes place.

Google Apps is unbelievably useful, and I do want it. The world does not revolve around the Computer Centre. They work for the University which, funded with tax money, works for the students.

You've got to be taking the p*ss here. Where did I say otherwise? The computer centre provide you with what you require. You're not gaining anything by switching to Google Apps apart from "handiness". It is not a requirement to provide students with the latest and greatest or even with the most cost effective solution. If it was then every service offered to students would be based in 'the cloud'. Can you get your hands on cold hard facts provided by other institutions about how many students are using Google Docs/Calendar/<insert other handy, but not required feature here>? Have you polled the entire student populous to see what the uptake of each service other than Gmail would be, Union Council is not an accurate representation btw. Have you weighed this against the effort it'll take to migrate when these features are freely available to any user who wants them anyways? Why don't the Computer Centre provide students with all sorts of services available from all sorts of companies for free? I mean it'll cost them nothing, right? The benefits, for everybody and not just the students, or a subgroup of students, needs to outweigh the effort in migrating.

So 1/8 of NUIM students will have access to their email during the very short time that HEAnet is down, which pretty much never happens. Not a huge selling point.

A selling point nonetheless. We are dependent on ourselves at the minute to provide NUIM->NUIM email. We become dependent on a whole host of other things, many of which are out of the college's control, and out of our Timezone if we change.

No ads is... good? No?

It sure is, but why then do they need to process the data?

There are no facts in this statement. To quote Google, "Google Apps for Education is free. We plan to keep the core offering of Google Apps Education Edition free. This includes user accounts for incoming students in the future."

....

Citation needed.

I'm afraid you missed the fine print in the Google Apps for Education Terms of Service - in particular Section 3.4. It can be read in laymans terms as "Free at the minute, but who knows what the future may hold".

Since you think the hardware used at the minute will be decommissioned (since you wanted a citation for standard IT practice when I said they wouldn't) it would stand to reason that if a server is decommissioned and sold on/dissolved as an asset then if the services were to migrate back to NUIM there be it because a fee is being implemented or a change in terms that didn't suit us, there would be a cost outlay for the purchase of hardware, licenses that were let lapse etc etc.

I don't know where to begin with this.

Don't. It's a fact. How it may affect us you don't know. Nor do I. It is a point though.

In seven years, GMail has been down for 1 hour.

That's not the only time GMail has been inaccessible. As a user of the internet, and a seemingly knowledgeable one at that, have you never encountered a site that appeared down to you because of DNS issues/routing issues but when you visited say downforeveryone.com it reported the site as up? What are the alternatives when you have an essay due and there are problems like this? Well if you're in Maynooth at the minute you can mosy on down to college and rest easy knowing NUIM->NUIM mail will work on campus.

Support for Google Docs/Gmail/Google Apps is provided by the University. It's right there in the FAQ/Guide for deployment - setting up extra phones, getting your helpdesk in order for the migration etc etc. General support isn't provided by Google. Sure, if there really is an issue then Google Apps for Education gets priority support, but this can only be raised by the Computer Centre, who wait then for a resolution. And what is priority support, what are the turnaround times for issues? The Computer Centre are effectively middlemen now, you're at the mercy of Google for everything from "I can't upload this particular document", "I clicked this button but nothing happened on Internet Explorer 6" to "I'm a new student and I need my account setup".

Just as an additional point - Do you know how many Government departments operate their own IT infrastructure, costing the taxpayer quite a sum of money in networks, support, hardware etc? I've got experience with Justice and Revenue. The same infrastructure could easily be placed into a datacentre or on 'the cloud' somewhere, providing a much more cost effective solution, guaranteed 99.9% uptime and lots more benefits. Why don't they just all migrate over and save themselves a fortune? Security, Privacy and Support would be way up there on the list of whys.

Make an objective list of genuine concerns that's free of adjectives and I'll answer them. Seriously. I'm happy to.

You're not quite happy to though

Ian Beale

If the email service was to change I'd prefer google over hotmail however I agree with another poster, if it's not broke then no need to fix it. How many emails does the average student send in a week/month - very little, the only times I ever used mine was to send a message to a lecturer.

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

Edit: As for the law, it's the same issue with any software, including Microsoft Office on all campus PCs. We have to follow the law of the country/region the software was patented in. If that's a reason to say no, then we'll all be using Linux* on campus.

*I know you'd love this

that's different, if your licensing the software that's one issue, where as this is a service.

With very different legal implications.