Why is it different?

LegacyUser

Just a bit of background: After university, I worked abroad as a nanny for four years and in a creche for three. When I felt I needed a change, I undertook a PhD in the field of my primary degree and now work in a large chemical plant.

I'm 32 years old now and married a wonderful man last year. The topic of having children is beginning to raise its head, and while I'm not opposed to it, I have my doubts. It's not that I don't get along with kids, but experience and research are leading to caution on my part. My husband is more relaxed and can see the two of us living a happy life, with or without - he is certainly not pressuring me.

I have no doubts that I would love my hypothetical children - I loved all the children I cared for, but it doesn't mean the job was for me. I find many behavioural traits of the average child annoying and tiresome. There is so much repetition of tasks and activities. Many children are noisy and even some well-parented children think hitting people is funny.

I can imagine watching a child doing things for the first time being fascinating if you haven't seen it literally dozens of times before. But I have seen it dozens of times before.

I've read threads on other parenting websites about the funny things children do. The problem is, many of these things just seemed irritating, or even hurtful. It's not that children don't do funny things. It's just that most of them do the same, or very similar, funny things.

The "14 Tests" thread just made the whole experience seem so joyless.

Finally, so much can go wrong. I'd worry constantly.

I've discussed this all with friends who have children. They all say that it's different when it's your own children. Firstly, I wonder if this is true - I've never seen anyone who actually appeared to enjoy parenting, even though they do love their kids.

Let me finish by reiterating that I do like children. I have just listed the negatives because the positives are not causing me any concern!

So here are my questions: Is it really different when they're your own? And why?

username123

I dont have children, nor do myself or my husband have any desire to have any. I can totally relate to the things you say in your post, but I think that youre forgetting the big payback that nature gives you for having children - a bond. Thats why its different when theyre your own. I know a number of people who were not remotely maternal or paternal who subsequently had children and love being parents. They dont love other peoples kids, but they do love their own.

What you see when you see other peoples children is only part of the experience, oftentimes children act up when there is someone else around, the private relationship with mammy or daddy is a lot different. I see a friend regularly who has two small children and if it was just based on the behaviour I see when Im there Id think all children do is cry and try to get mammys attention, but then she tells me how it is when Im not there, when they are doing fun stuff together, when they are having quiet moments together. I only see the behaviour when mammy and I are trying to have a cup of tea and a chat. But thats not the whole experience.

So Id would think that the main differences when they are your own is the powerful bond that nature has put in place, and the different experiences that you can only have if the child is your own.

I know you probably only want to hear from parents, but I hope the above helps a bit from someone in the same position as yourself.

Fittle

OP, you won't get the answer you want to your question I'm afraid, because the answer is, IT JUST IS!

I have a large family and practically raised a bunch of my nephews and nieces from my teens to my late twenties and thought I knew it all.

We can all tell you how hard parenting can, the stresses, the fact that you will worry about them until the day you die, no matter how many 'breaks' you get (going on holidays without them etc)...the financial constraints, the list is endless.

It's the love you feel for them that makes it so worthwhile. I've loved my parents. I love my siblings. I love my nephews and nieces. I've loved some men. But none of this compares to the love you feel for your child. It can't be explained. You just have to experience it, to feel it.

Ickle Magoo

Yep, it is just really, really different to any love, pride, whatever you have ever felt before for anyone else, regardless of how close to them you were.

Yes, there is a lot of stresses and worries with kids and yes, they can be very, very annoying - but they can be incredibly sweet and loving as well. Other peoples children are seldom as cute and funny as their parents think they are but parents know this and so nod and smile politely.

It's bloody hard work - I vowed never to have kids and now have two - we don't want any more, two is enough work for us! Becoming a parent changes you and changes your relationship with your partner and changes your view of the world - and sometimes the world's view of you - it's a mammoth responsibility and that thought is never far away but it can also be the most rewarding, fun and exciting thing you will ever do.

3DataModem

I can understand peoples reluctance and also appreciate some people have no particular parental impulse.

For me being a parent gives a few unique things...
- no longer being the centre of your universe. Literally valuing yourself (life, health, happiness) less than that of your child.
- less fear of death, knowing you have progeny who will in some small way reflect you after you are gone

There are others... I just think the above two are probably parenting-specific.

LegacyUser

Hi again everybody, and thank you for your responses.

The thing is, I don't want to love my child more than my husband.

I don't want our relationship to change.

I don't want to change my view of the world.

I don't want to value my own life less than that of my child - (already applies to my valuing of the life of my husband, but that's another story).

I don't want to find things cute that really aren't. For example, some parents seem to think tantrums are funny. They're just not. Mispronouncing words is neither cute nor uncute - it's just incorrect - it doesn't bother me - I just feel indifferently towards it.

I don't want to watch Peppa Pig!!

It's not that I want a fancy house or that I don't want to sacrifice my body/money. It's just that I'm not sure parenting is for me. I don't go around looking for 'something more'. I already feel immensely proud of some of my achievements (not boasting, just clarifying, and not specifying as I don't wish to be recognised).

I'm delighted to hear views from other non-parents too, by the way! I'm just having a bit of trouble seeing the appeal and would like someone to help me balance my views before I make any form of decision (preferably with a few facts added, not solely emotively).

metrovelvet

I think its different for a number of reasons, and probably many I cant put my finger on.

For one. The job never stops. Ever.

The other thing is that you made this person [people] and continue to create them through guidance, discipline and education. You continue to create your relationship with them too, its an ongoing work in progress.

And they create you too. Or recreate you I should say. Not one decision I make leaves out consideration for my son, from grocery shopping to travel to what I wear [because I have to consider the mess it will be by 4 o clock]. They change you fundamentally.

I learn so much from him, mostly how to give purely and unselfishly, the love is hard work, not glowing feelings. And Im constantly learning about him and each stage of development is a new discovery for him and for me. Also the wisdom of the innocent is something else. It shocks me sometimes.

Nevyn

Given that this is the parenting forum I don't' think you will get that many non parents replying and the majority of people will have found the reason why they wanted to have children for themselves, there is no one answer each is subjective.

My first child wasn't planned, to this day I boggle at how he beat the statistics of taking the pill correctly and using condoms to be conceived. Once we discovered I was pregnant I was very unsure about continuing the pregnancy esp as I had just finished college and started my first job in my career but his Dad promised me it would work out.

Yes there have been sacrifices along the way but it's not a choice I regret and I am glad I had one more after him.

If you are happy in your life and don't want to be a parent or want to have kids, fair enough if that is what you want, there are people who are content and being a parent isn't for them.


Also I think you have a slightly skewed idea from your time as a child care workers as to certain types of doting parents who when I see them make me think did they loose their brains with the placenta.

I don't think tantrums are funny, I don't think mispronounced words are cute, or baby words, horsey, doggie ect were and are banned in this home. I cant' stand peppa pig and the majority of what passes for children's entrainment.

You don't have to buy into or conform to the cult of kiddie cuteness when you have a child and set swallowed up in disneyland or cbbeeie land. You can still maintain your own life and persona, it take work, compromise and the first few years are hard until the child gets into school but after that it gets a lot easier.

But if you don't want to have kids and are happy with you life style then don't have them, it's not fair when professional couples have a child cos it's the done thing or to get into parent networking or to get family of their back and the child then has all the material things in the world but never enough time or parental affection.

Kids take a lot of time and investment but the affection I get from them and how I get to see the world as they explore it and the adventures and laughter I share with them, the pride I feel when they achieve and when they are praised for good behaviour and nice manner for me makes it worth while. Also knowing that hopfully they will live good lives and add in a positive way to the lives of others.

metrovelvet

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

Hi again everybody, and thank you for your responses.

The thing is, I don't want to love my child more than my husband.

I don't want our relationship to change.

I don't want to change my view of the world.

I don't want to value my own life less than that of my child - (already applies to my valuing of the life of my husband, but that's another story).

I don't want to find things cute that really aren't. For example, some parents seem to think tantrums are funny. They're just not. Mispronouncing words is neither cute nor uncute - it's just incorrect - it doesn't bother me - I just feel indifferently towards it.

I don't want to watch Peppa Pig!!

It's not that I want a fancy house or that I don't want to sacrifice my body/money. It's just that I'm not sure parenting is for me. I don't go around looking for 'something more'. I already feel immensely proud of some of my achievements (not boasting, just clarifying, and not specifying as I don't wish to be recognised).

I'm delighted to hear views from other non-parents too, by the way! I'm just having a bit of trouble seeing the appeal and would like someone to help me balance my views before I make any form of decision (preferably with a few facts added, not solely emotively).

If you dont want things to change then definitely dont have kids. They change you. They change your relationship with everyone.

As for all that peppa pig stuff, you can avoid it. But parenting is doing a lot of stuff you don't want to do, like getting up six times a night, and that you can't avoid.

Ickle Magoo

:pac:

I don't know anyone who gets into this parenting lark with a burning desire to love someone else more than themselves or their partner, or desperate to change their view of the world - they are largely unavoidable by-products of becoming a parent and frankly it sounds a bit ridiculous to complain that you don't want to find your own child endearing (though I don't know anyone who finds tantrums cute) or want to share in what your child does or change to accommodate them, their wants and needs - that's part and parcel of being a good parent.

There is no shame in not wanting kids, lots of people are perfectly happy not to ever experience being a parent. For those that do experience parenthood, intentionally or otherwise - it WILL change your life, there is no getting around that. Creating, looking after, guiding and loving another little life who is completely dependent on you for everything is going to change your life forever. You don't get to hand them back at weekends and evenings, you don't get holidays and you can't resign, it's certainly nothing like a crèche or nannying - you get to decide what's cute and what's allowed but if you don't want to suffer any of the downsides or changes that are inherent in parenting then perhaps parenting isn't for you? :cool:

lynski

you kinda sound like me when i was your age, just married a year, not sure about the whole family thing, etc, etc
Well a year later i wanted a baby - dont think i thought the whole children thing through to toddler, school etc, just wanted a baby.
Now we are expecting no 3 and I will have a 4yr old, 2 yr old and newborn in 6 months all going well. Think we will stop then, but i can honestly say i understand how people continue to have 5/6 or more.
They are exhilarating, exasperating, frustrating, charming, everything.
I have changed fundamentally and i didn't want to or think i would - i was going to be different.
I do love them more then my husband or myself or the munster rugby team, but i also love my husband more then i ever thought possible because we have a family together.
I am excited about life in a way i never was before i had them and i cant wait to see what comes next. and i am more exhausted, scared, bewildered, apprehensive as well. but it really is the point of our lives

LegacyUser

Thaedydal: Thank you - your replies have been extremely helpful! It's nice to know that I'm not the only one who doesn't find certain things cute. My asking for more views of non-parents was a reference back to username123's post.

Ickle Magoo: I never said I didn't wish to find my own child endearing. I stated that I didn't wish to find things cute that really aren't. It's not that I'm not willing to put up with any downsides - I'm just trying to work out if it's for me at all.

Username123: Your reply has made me feel better about how I'm feeling. I'm thankful that someone can relate!

Metrovelvet: You may be right. Perhaps it isn't for me.

The tough part is, that most people I know who remain child free dislike children. I don't. I know everyone's different, but it seems that I'm in a very small minority. This thread is where I can ask everything that I can't ask my friends and relatives with children - for example, I often want to ask why they find something sweet/adorable, because for the life of me, I can't see it.

Then there's this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055975553. I know it's meant in good humour, but it simply sounds infuriating.

I want to clarify that I'm not trolling. I'd also like to ask if any parent had similar doubts to mine. Has anyone found parenting to be less rewarding than expected?

Ickle Magoo

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

Ickle Magoo: I never said I didn't wish to find my own child endearing. I stated that I didn't wish to find things cute that really aren't. It's not that I'm not willing to put up with any downsides - I'm just trying to work out if it's for me at all.

But you have to know that statement doesn't really make sense. We all find things cute or attractive that others don't - our choice of partners, our clothes, pets, etc, etc. Children are no different, you love what they do (most of the time! :pac: ) because you love them. So what if anyone else doesn't find them cute? Would you be bothered if other people didn't find your husband as attractive or funny as you do? Or visa versa? I'm guessing not.

Your post was all about what you didn't want, my point was most of the things you point out come as an overall package and you just have to accept some of the less attractive sides of parenting if you choose that path - and you often have to put what you want or don't want to one side; so a long list of your own wants and don't wants are not really implementable when it comes to parenting.

I laughed at the "14 tests" thread. Kids come along and like a whirlwind your life is changed inexorably for ever more and you find for the most part, you rather enjoy it. Things you couldn't stand when you weren't a parent and vowed never to allow or to do suddenly make sense. It's hard to explain.

LegacyUser

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

But you have to know that statement doesn't really make sense. We all find things cute or attractive that others don't - our choice of partners, our clothes, pets, etc, etc. Children are no different, you love what they do (most of the time! :pac: ) because you love them. So what if anyone else doesn't find them cute? Would you be bothered if other people didn't find your husband as attractive or funny as you do? Or visa versa? I'm guessing not.

Okay, perhaps self expression is not my thing! Allow me to attempt to clarify: If my husband were to start getting drunk and urinating on people's cars, I would still love him, but not find that behaviour endearing. I would not allow my love for him to cloud that judgment. I also wouldn't want my love for him to allow me to believe it was attractive behaviour.

Similarly with my hypothetical child: If he or she were to exhibit irritating behaviour, I would not wish for my judgment to be clouded so that I would find it sweet or funny. It's not about what other people think - If it were, I would probably already be having baby number 2! It's a matter of me not wishing for my judgment to be impaired by parenthood.

I'm also wondering, what is exciting about having children? Genuine question (if a little stupid of me). I can see how it might be enjoyable, but why is it exciting?

Fittle

I just want to add, that I don't particularly like other peoples children! Other peoples kids who have tantrums annoy me. Other peoples kids annoy me!

This situation about having a kid/not having a kid, reminds me of the decision I took to buy my first car.

Before I had a car, I wondered how people afforded cars, how they drove, how they were able to chat away to me in the passenger seat, while they put their feet on the pedals and manoeuvred the gearstick, and listened to the radio, and turned the steering wheel, and changed channels on the radio....and all the while, they still drove safely!!! And sure why wouldn't they just use public transport, like I did

And then I bought a car.

And now I have NO CLUE how I managed my life without a car;)

smelltheglove

OP I am almost sure I would be of the same mindset of you had I not become pregnant young. I have 2 brothers who I had a lot of input in their lives. I love my brothers to death and would have been involved in almost everything they did. I helped them dress, wash, do homework, sports, and so much more. I enjoyed life to the full. But I became a parent and the worry of how my life was going to change was absolutely unreal. I wasnt prepared for it in any way or form but my God I would never change it for the world!

You say you find mispronounced words irritating, as do I, my children have been taught to speak clearly and properly from a young age and are corrected anytime they try to do 'baby talk'. I dont find some things cute, I mean sometimes my husband would be like, oh you have to go check out the babes, they look so cute and I go in and all I see is 2 kids asleep,, same as any other night. Some parents are sooo into their kids that I feel sick but at the same time I love my kids to death and I do value their lives over my own, I would have nightmares of things happening to them, they are the most important things in the world to me.

My relationship with my husband has not changed because of having children, I suppose it may be a little different as I had a child before meeting him but having a child together has not changed our relationship. We still enjoy the same things, still enjoy our time together, in fact we cherish it even more and if anything our love for each other has grown because of the child we share.

Kids are hard work, you give them all of yourself and a little bit more, but they give all of themselves back, the admiration, the love is unlike any you will ever get from any other human being, they will want to hug you for the sake of it, tell you they love you just because and in those little moments you will feel more love than you could ever feel in an entire lifetime without children!

Black Dog

Ellen,

I have had a similar work experience to you with many, many years as a primary school teacher behind me. They were all lovely children but I wouldn't want to take any of them home. They were all some mother and father's pride and joy but not mine. Their "cute" behaviours are very tiresome. It is important to remember/remind yourself that these children are not yours, that you are not responsible for their behaviour/upbringing and to remember that you will raise any children of your own in your own way. Remember, your children would be the image of you in every way and so just perfect - well, many of the parents I dealt with thought this was the case anyway. Just being flippant with this last sentence.

This experience you have had minding children has, I feel, tainted your experience of children. Personally, I found after having my own children that I had a greater understanding of how parents saw their own children.

How is it different when the children are your own? Well, I suppose it's a bit like the saying, "blood is thicker than water". Despite our great development as a species we have very, very strong basic instincts and are influenced by these even if we don't realise it. We will love our children even if they are the greatest pains in the a... that anyone could imagine. That is how our instincts and basic human programming ensure we will continue the species.

However, not everybody wishes to continue the species and that is a perfectly valid choice and yours to make.

As for me, I have had three sons. The eldest is married, the second is in a relationship and the third is just about to fly the nest - Yippee! Yes! Free at last!

If I was starting over again, would I have children? I'm not sure. My personality led me to fret unreasonably about them all through their lives and to put them ahead on my own needs and my own life and that has been very trying. As many people would say, "I wouldn't send them back".

Best wishes in your considerations. It is well to approach these important decisions in life with some thought rather than simply happening into them. Do remember that the experiences of the vast, vast majority of people has been that nature simply kicks all these considerations out the window - when a child arrives all plans and previous convictions are simply irrelevant.

Nevyn

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

Similarly with my hypothetical child: If he or she were to exhibit irritating behaviour, I would not wish for my judgment to be clouded so that I would find it sweet or funny.

If you have clear standards as to what is and is not acceptable behaviour then that will not change and you rear your child accordingly and teach them not to exhibit those behaviours, the most effective way is not to do them yourself.

If anything I found I became at times more critical of my kids because they were my kids and their behaviour reflects back on me and my parenting skills.

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

I'm also wondering, what is exciting about having children? Genuine question (if a little stupid of me). I can see how it might be enjoyable, but why is it exciting?

Because you are brining a new person into the world who's not existed before from a wonderfully random mixture of you and their dad's dna and no one know what they will turn out with and it's intresting to watch them grow and develop and watch nature vs nurture with them and how they turn out.
They are experiments/works of art in progress each day adding to who they are and how they will turn out.

Ickle Magoo

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

Okay, perhaps self expression is not my thing! Allow me to attempt to clarify: If my husband were to start getting drunk and urinating on people's cars, I would still love him, but not find that behaviour endearing. I would not allow my love for him to cloud that judgment. I also wouldn't want my love for him to allow me to believe it was attractive behaviour.

Similarly with my hypothetical child: If he or she were to exhibit irritating behaviour, I would not wish for my judgment to be clouded so that I would find it sweet or funny. It's not about what other people think - If it were, I would probably already be having baby number 2! It's a matter of me not wishing for my judgment to be impaired by parenthood.

I'm also wondering, what is exciting about having children? Genuine question (if a little stupid of me). I can see how it might be enjoyable, but why is it exciting?

I'm not sure it is clouded, any more than love blinds us to anything or anyone else. I don't find bratty behaviour cute, nor the kid next doors rendition of "You are my sunshine" but I have no doubt I find my kids cuter and funnier than people who aren't their parents and the same goes for other children and the people who love them. Over time you raise your kids to behave in a manner that you find appropriate and attractive - though like in adult relationships we all have different ideas of what that means.

It's exciting because you are entrusted with the life of another human that only exists because you created them. You get to mould a little person, watching their personality emerge and develop - you get to have the most amazing conversations and hear the absolute innocence and intelligence of something you created starting to function and mature, challenge you and your ideals and carve a place for themselves in society. :cool:

astra2000

Hi op I find it quiet sad when you mentioned that you thought most parents dont enjoy been one I would imagine that most of them dont realise that they come across that way. It is different when you have your own, than when you care for other peoples kids. I suppose there is no real explanation for it other than nature has made us that way. I have nieces and nephews whom I love but it does not compare to what I feel for my own children however in saying that if for some reason I were to have to raise any of my neices/nephews as my own I believe my feelings for them would become much stronger as I would be their parent figure and be responsible for them.
You wont love your children more than your husband just differently. If ye decide not to have childre that is your choice and if ye go ahead and have them then set out in a positive manner if you set out thinking it will be hard then it will be.

Cat Melodeon

I don't particularly like children. I worked with kids for a few years and didn't like it much. I particularly dislike bratty preteens and newborns have always freaked me out. However, the main thing that compelled me to finally get pregnant (aside from a few too many cocktails and a broody husband) was the fear that if I didn't have children, I would end up regretting it. This is true for most things in my life, I only regret the things I didn't do. So we went for it. And yes, it is different when they're your own and I don't think the how of that can be explained by anyone, as it is different for everyone.

As to your fears of change, some aspects of change are unavoidable (like lack of sleep) but they pass fairly quickly. Most of the ones you have described are avoidable, or at least under your control. I generally don't do baby language. I hate tantrums. There is lots about my child that I find cute, but equally there are times I'd like to swap him for a puppy. I don't find it endearing when he spits out his food or attacks other children (no, he's not kissing them, he's trying to headbutt them) or screams unendingly. I haven't lost myself to motherhood either. I still work. I still enjoy putting on my heels and make-up and not being 'mam' for a few hours. I still love my husband more than anyone else on earth. The love you feel for a child is completely different to that. I never felt that rush of maternal love that some people talk about, but my child is as much a part of me as my foot or my liver. It's different to love. It's more primal. I chose my husband. I cannot choose or control who this child will be - I can influence him but not define him. It is thrilling to see this thing that was once inside my body develop into a proper human, fascinating to see bits of other family members in there, comforting to see that by having children we attain a sort of immortality and reach out to those who have gone before us. Maybe it's because my own parents are gone that I have put all of those emotions into becoming a parent. I'm sure plenty of people are ambivalent about parenthood. For me, I am so glad I did it because it has only changed me in good ways and I would not have missed a single minute of it for anything.

metrovelvet

The one thing I was not prepared for and I dont like is the invisibility you take with the world around you. You are not you anymore to everyone. You are so and so's mommy.

There's a great post on PI about it.

Cat Melodeon

metrovelvet wrote: »

The one thing I was not prepared for and I dont like is the invisibility you take with the world around you. You are not you anymore to everyone. You are so and so's mommy.

There's a great post on PI about it.

I haven't got there yet (he's only 12 months old) but I know I won't like it when it happens. I don't like being 'Mr Cat's wife' or 'Johnnie's daughter' or 'Bridie's sister' either. One more invisibility cloak to add to the wardrobe...

Ickle Magoo

It's not a forgone conclusion in all facets of life. I work and study and the majority of those I work or study with would have no idea I have kids, let alone only know me as as so & so's mum. You do get a lot of that at child based events and montessori/school tho.

astra2000

I think that invisibility idea is exaggerated I have never noticed it so what if someone asks after my kids instead of me no big deal and sure we all go by tags such and suches sister/wife/ friend/cousin/neice, from time to time I am happy enough in my self not to be bothered by other peoples labels of me. I saw the post in PI and think people sometimes just do a little bit too much analysing.

LegacyUser

astra2000 wrote: »

Hi op I find it quiet sad when you mentioned that you thought most parents dont enjoy been one I would imagine that most of them dont realise that they come across that way.

It's not that I think they don't enjoy it. It's just that I've never really seen anyone seem to enjoy it, and that frightens me. Many parents appear to do nothing but scold their children and complain about how stressed they are. If asked though, they still say it's marvellously rewarding. This confuses me, as I can't see the logic.

Thaedydal - Thank you for the reply about how it's exciting. I honestly never thought of it that way. I'm detail-oriented (thus daily tasks prevail in my picture of parenting), and you have helped to illustrate the greater picture.

Black Dog - I can really relate to the worry you report. I'm like that too, and can only imagine it magnified during parenthood!

As for identity-loss, I never even thought of it, but it does not appeal to me at all.

I'm glad some people believe that it won't be a case of me loving my children more than my husband. Different I can cope with!

One thing that bothers me - people say that being a parent makes everything else you've ever done seem trivial. I don't want this to happen. Certain things I have done are genuinely not at all trivial, and I don't want to feel that they are. Does this always happen?

Finally, I don't like the idea of always putting a child before anyone else. I take no issue with always putting his/her needs ahead of my own. However, there are certain friends and relatives, and my lovely husband, whom I really love being able to consider above all else, at least in certain circumstances.

Cat Melodeon

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

One thing that bothers me - people say that being a parent makes everything else you've ever done seem trivial. I don't want this to happen. Certain things I have done are genuinely not at all trivial, and I don't want to feel that they are. Does this always happen?

Of course not. I have done many and varied things in my life that are important and significant to me (and to others). They are no less important or significant now. I still love my work, my friends, and while the time I now give to my interests has been somewhat reduced, it does not stop me from having and pursuing those interests. Certainly there is no other responsibility in life like being responsible for another being's existence and continued survival, maybe that is what people mean when they say that life before baby was trivial. That or they did not have a particularly meaningful life beforehand and having a child gave them a deeper purpose.

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

Finally, I don't like the idea of always putting a child before anyone else. I take no issue with always putting his/her needs ahead of my own. However, there are certain friends and relatives, and my lovely husband, whom I really love being able to consider above all else, at least in certain circumstances.

Again, this is entirely up to you and your own priorities and your ability to multitask. I have a particularly close relationship with my brother. He is now an adult but I was his guardian after our parents died. He is still my number one boy. He is not 'like a son' to me, I have a son and it is different. But I do not love my brother any less than I did before, and when needs be, I put his interests ahead of my own, my husband's and indeed my son's. This happens naturally. Love, commitment and consideration for others are not inelastic, they expand as required. I imagine this is what happens when people have more than one child - you do not love the second any less than the first, nor does the new child supplant the firstborn in your affections. You simply grow as a collective and life adapts around you.

ebmma

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

Hi again everybody, and thank you for your responses.

The thing is, I don't want to love my child more than my husband.

I don't want our relationship to change.

I don't want to change my view of the world.

I don't want to value my own life less than that of my child - (already applies to my valuing of the life of my husband, but that's another story).

I don't want to find things cute that really aren't. For example, some parents seem to think tantrums are funny. They're just not. Mispronouncing words is neither cute nor uncute - it's just incorrect - it doesn't bother me - I just feel indifferently towards it.

I don't want to watch Peppa Pig!!

It's not that I want a fancy house or that I don't want to sacrifice my body/money. It's just that I'm not sure parenting is for me. I don't go around looking for 'something more'. I already feel immensely proud of some of my achievements (not boasting, just clarifying, and not specifying as I don't wish to be recognised).

I'm delighted to hear views from other non-parents too, by the way! I'm just having a bit of trouble seeing the appeal and would like someone to help me balance my views before I make any form of decision (preferably with a few facts added, not solely emotively).

hi! I'm a parent to a little boy. I just wanted to say that

1) my relationship with my husband did not change (we just have less time:(),
2)I love my husband more than my son - there's no contest. In fact I'm still waiting for this overwhelming love for baby feeling some parents talk about. tbh I don't think it will come. I do care about my son a lot, but at the end of it all it is your partner that you chose you'll grow old with, not your children. They have their own lives to live.
3)My view of the world did not change either. I'm still the same person who likes and wants same things - I'm just greatly restricted in what I can do at the moment.

4) to be completely honest, I don't like being a mother. I like my son - he's a cool little guy. It's amazing to watch him grow and learn new stuff. It melts my heart when he looks into my eyes and holds my hand and smiles while nursing. It's lovely. But unfortunately it is nt all like that.
to be brief - babies can be nice but babycare is no fun. Just something that has to be done.
It's no rainbows and unicorns - it's hard work. Sometimes I sit on the couch after he's gone to bed completely overwhelmed by the intensity of it all - it's a job from which you never go home. He's always there. I miss slow summer days with my husband when we could just spend a day watching the world go by if we wanted to. I miss it just being two of us.

5) overall so far I would say it wasn't worth it. It probably will in a long run as I would like to have a relationship with my adult children It was my choice to have a child when I did however none of the parenting stereotypes seem to apply.

sorry for the long post but I just wanted to let you know that it doesn't have t be the way other people say. you have your own journey. You might have a baby and be totally smitten and it'll be the centre of your world. Or not:D

ebmma

ok people are probably not going to like it but here goes:


Imagine you got a puppy. It needs warmth, food, water, attention and a place to sleep. You provide those things because you are a decent reasonable person and understand that if you want to have a puppy in your life you need to look after it. You wake up in the morning and give puppy food before you get some yourself because he's whining and too small to be patient yet. All in good time.

You obviously would rather go for a movie if circumstances were different, but puppy seems unwell so you bring him to the vet instead.

Now the question is are you really putting the needs of the puppy before your own? sort of. but this is what you signed up for. you are not going to sigh and tell your friends how you have to put someone elses needs before your own.

It's not a perfect analogy, but really small babies need the same stuff other baby animals need. As they grow needs become more complex. But it has nothing to do with not caring about needs of others it's about helping someone who can't help themselves just yet.

if you have a baby screaming in a dirty nappies you're not going t enjoy that cup of tea. so you change baby 1st

Big Bag of Chips

OP - I think you are taking what people say too literally. Tghe comment about having children making everything else in the world seem trivial - who said that? Was it one person / two people / every parent you ever met?

It's a personal opinion.

If you've done great things in your life - they will always be great and you will always be proud of them.

If you love your husband, you will always love him. Just remember YOU love him - you chose him - he is the person you want to be with... not everyone else will think of him as fondly as you do!

Similarly with children - YOU make the child. YOU mould the child (for the most part) into the person you want them to be. In effect YOU CHOSE the child you want to have. If you want to have a bratty tantrummy child who you think is the be-all-and-end-all, then that is what you will have.

If you want to have a polite, mannerly well behaved child (who will annoy you sometimes!) then that is what you will have!

Does your husband annoy you sometimes? Is there anything he does that irritates you? Would you rather you had never met and married him so that you wouldn't have to put up with him pissing on the side of a car when locked!

If you don't want to have children then don't. But don't base your decision on minding other peoples kids. You will tolerate your own kids better than others... because you see the whole child. If your child has a tantrum for 10 mins once every 3/4 weeks... you can see that it's not the end of the world. Because for 99.9% of the time they are a fabulous human being. If you are somewhere and you see someone elses child having a tantrum - that is as much of that child that you are witnessing.

EVERY child will have tantrums and strops. The best parent in the world can't account for someone elses mood or personality... an adult is allowed be in a bad mood sometimes.. so too are children. Just they have less means of expression than an adult does.

Being a parent is fantastic. It is a wonderful thing to see something that YOU created, from a sperm and an egg, microscopic, grow into a fully functioning human being. Learning to walk, talk, drink out of a cup with no lid on it! And it is different when it's your own child, because they are YOURS.

I'm sure your proud of your husbands achievements, the same as your proud of your own.. You're not the first person in the world to get a phd. Your husband woudln't be the first person in the world to have done whatever makes you proud of and love him. But it's your/his personal achievement, and that's what makes you proud.

Why do you think you wouldn't be proud of your childs? Would you not be proud of your hypothetical child if the went to college and got their phd, just because you already have one? Were you parents not proud of you, because millions before you have one?!

Everything about children/having children/children's achievements is PERSONAL.

So while my neighbours might not be that proud of me/my husband/my children... I AM!

Big Bag of Chips

ebmma wrote: »

hi! I'm a parent to a little boy. I just wanted to say that

to be completely honest, I don't like being a mother. I like my son - he's a cool little guy. It's amazing to watch him grow and learn new stuff. It melts my heart when he looks into my eyes and holds my hand and smiles while nursing. It's lovely. But unfortunately it is nt all like that.
to be brief - babies can be nice but babycare is no fun. Just something that has to be done.

I just saw this after my post, and needed to reply.. I'm guessing your son is still small, and a "baby" - minding a baby isn't fun. There's very little feedback from the baby. You give give give and it takes a while before you see any sign of gratitude - but as they get older, and can talk to you, and tell you exactly what they think of you (good and bad!) that's when the rewards come.

Minding a baby is a thankless job. It's hard work - it's exhausting - and it's definitely not "fun"!... minding a 2 or 3 year old is hard work, exhausting, but it's a bit more fun. Minding a 4 or 5 year old is fun and a bit of work (the exhaustion has usually passed by this stage, as they are a bit more independent!)

I can't comment after that, at the moment!

The first 3 - 4 years of a childs life is constant, constant work. They need you to do EVERYTHING for them! After that it gets easier.

If you can handle a few years of a hard work, then you'll breeze the rest of it!

ebmma

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I just saw this after my post, and needed to reply.. I'm guessing your son is still small, and a "baby" - minding a baby isn't fun. There's very little feedback from the baby. You give give give and it takes a while before you see any sign of gratitude - but as they get older, and can talk to you, and tell you exactly what they think of you (good and bad!) that's when the rewards come.

Minding a baby is a thankless job. It's hard work - it's exhausting - and it's definitely not "fun"!... minding a 2 or 3 year old is hard work, exhausting, but it's a bit more fun. Minding a 4 or 5 year old is fun and a bit of work (the exhaustion has usually passed by this stage, as they are a bit more independent!)

I can't comment after that, at the moment!

The first 3 - 4 years of a childs life is constant, constant work. They need you to do EVERYTHING for them! After that it gets easier.

If you can handle a few years of a hard work, then you'll breeze the rest of it!

Thanks :-) I knew what I signed up for to some extent and that I'm not really much of a baby person and looking forward to him getting older. There's a big difference in the level of feedback from a newborn and 6 month old even so there's light at the end of the tunnel hopefully.:D

the reason I was saying all that is that I come across 'absolutely loving being a mother-my baby is the best thing that ever happened to me-he/she is absolutely perfect' posts from new parents quite often and they can make one feel quite inadequate if your personal experience isn't quite so rosy.

Ickle Magoo

ebmma wrote: »

Thanks :-) I knew what I signed up for to some extent and that I'm not really much of a baby person and looking forward to him getting older. There's a big difference in the level of feedback from a newborn and 6 month old even so there's light at the end of the tunnel hopefully.:D

the reason I was saying all that is that I come across 'absolutely loving being a mother-my baby is the best thing that ever happened to me-he/she is absolutely perfect' posts from new parents quite often and they can make one feel quite inadequate if your personal experience isn't quite so rosy.

I hated the baby stage, it couldn't come to an end fast enough - my two are 4 & 5 now and I wouldn't go back to the nappies and sleepless nights if you paid me & I could never understand those that went gaga at little outfits and so on - but I'm loving this stage...hang in there!

Big Bag of Chips

I have 3, and I never enjoyed the first few months! I really don't like the newborn stage, and it's only at about 5 months or so, that I start enjoying them - when they are a bit hardier, and you're not afraid of 'breaking' them!!!

Even by the time I had my 3rd, I still hadn't changed my mind about the first few months.. I don't like them. I don't like bathing and dressing a new born!
But as Ickle Magoo says... hang in there, the "good times" (!) are on the way!

By the way - about the "rush of love" thing.. it wasn't instant for me either. I fell in love with my children. As soon as they were born I burst into tears at the relief that they were here, safe and sound, and I wanted to protect them and keep them out of harm.. but there was no "rush of love"!

metrovelvet

The first year seems interminable torture tbh.

dan_d

Interesting thread.

I'm in the OP's shoes, in that I'm 27, babies are coming into the lives of some of our friends, and I just don't understand the fascination.

I thought I wanted children at some point. But recently I can't help thinking to myself - why? The screaming, the tantrums, the sleepless nights, the arguing with teenagers, the repetitive conversations, the increasing bills, and (apparently), the worrying that doesn't stop until you die.

Why? I live next door to a couple with a 3 year old. While he's very good, there are a few tantrums, and I just can't help thinking - is that really what I want? I'm so intolerant of badly behaved children, I just cannot accept that a child can't learn manners from a very young age.I don't buy into this worship the child thing that we have going on in this country. Adults need time too. And as a woman...I want a life too! I don't want to simply become " a mother". I exist aswell, I want a job and a life.

I keep being told "it'll be different when they're your own". I've even been told "you can't talk about what you'll get children to do, they never behave the way you think they will"....it's not their behaviour I think about, it's mine. I know I'll insist on manners. I know the only TV in the house will be in the living room. I know whining won't be tolerated. I know that bedtime will be bedtime and adult time will be adult time. I know I won't be making 3 or 4 different dinners for fussy eaters. I know it will be a dictatorship, and not a democracy for several years.

From reading this thread I get the impression that while people like having their own kids - this notion that all women adore babies and that all these maternal instincts just automatically overwhelm you, and you love every second of their existence and are thrilled by it, as is peddled by the media, is not really all that true. And that people can't exactly put a finger on why it's different, but it is.

I'm glad there's other people out there that think about this stuff, because sometimes I wonder if I'm completely nuts thinking like this.

astra2000

dad d your not nuts I think a lot of people have their doubts before they have kids. I suppose you just have to accept parents point of view that it is different even though we cant really explain why. All the things you say you would want from your kids are reasonable I want it from mine I dont get it all the time of course as nobody is perfect but it is the norm. A parent has to be in charge not the child. when your a parent you see other parents allowing things that you would not tolerate in a million years and you see some doing things you would never have thought of in a million years but think is great. A degree of flexibility is needed but that applys to life in general. At the end of the day if someone decides they dont want children for what ever reason that is their decision and its not wrong and there is no need to justify it.

LegacyUser

I'm just not sure it's a risk I'm willing to take.

It may not be different when it's my own child.

I love babies, and get on wonderfully well with older children, but toddlers and young teenagers drive me to distraction!

Big Bag of Chips: As for pride, yes I can imagine feeling proud of genuine achievement (like doing well at school, getting a degree, being good at a sport, writing a book etc.). As for things like learning to walk/use a cup/use a potty, I'd worry if they didn't learn, but can't imagine feeling proud that they did - although I may feel relieved at the first occurence of these behaviours!

ebmma: Thank you for your honesty. Knowing it's not all Hallmark cards and fuzziness makes me feel less alien for thinking this way.

dan_d: Always a relief to see people thinking similarly!

Cat Melodeon: Your posts are very reassuring - I'll be reading them again if I ever decide to have babies!

astra2000 and Ickle Magoo: Thanks again for all the input.

I need to ask you all - how boring does it get? I mean, the constant washing up, the babyproofing, the singing the same song 500 times, the repetitive games, feeding babies, doing homework, potty training, making lunches... It seems like an awful lot of drudgery. I have mentioned this work/repetition to relatives who are parents (tactfully, with humour and when appropriate!), and they just smile indulgently towards their children and say that it's all worth it - which doesn't exactly help!

metrovelvet

Ellen B 58 wrote: »

I'm just not sure it's a risk I'm willing to take.

It may not be different when it's my own child.

I love babies, and get on wonderfully well with older children, but toddlers and young teenagers drive me to distraction!

Big Bag of Chips: As for pride, yes I can imagine feeling proud of genuine achievement (like doing well at school, getting a degree, being good at a sport, writing a book etc.). As for things like learning to walk/use a cup/use a potty, I'd worry if they didn't learn, but can't imagine feeling proud that they did - although I may feel relieved at the first occurence of these behaviours!

ebmma: Thank you for your honesty. Knowing it's not all Hallmark cards and fuzziness makes me feel less alien for thinking this way.

dan_d: Always a relief to see people thinking similarly!

Cat Melodeon: Your posts are very reassuring - I'll be reading them again if I ever decide to have babies!

astra2000 and Ickle Magoo: Thanks again for all the input.

I need to ask you all - how boring does it get? I mean, the constant washing up, the babyproofing, the singing the same song 500 times, the repetitive games, feeding babies, doing homework, potty training, making lunches... It seems like an awful lot of drudgery. I have mentioned this work/repetition to relatives who are parents (tactfully, with humour and when appropriate!), and they just smile indulgently towards their children and say that it's all worth it - which doesn't exactly help!

It gets really boring. Especially year one. And isolating. Its tough tough work. The hardest work you will ever do.

At the same time, I learn so much from my son. And he makes me laugh. I like the toddler years, though they can test your patience too. They will want to make you tear your eyes out and scream. Or cry. I remember bursting into hysterical laughter on the street after listening to about 20 minute non stop stream of ridiculous questions.

That's all I know about so far.

But there are moments, that may not have meaning to an outsider, but suddenly all your work seems like it was worthwhile. The only thing I can compare it to is gardening, where you work and toil, and then suddenly you see the beauty of what you cared for and created.

I dont feel particularly proud when he learns to use a cup or spoon. And I will be very relieved when he finally learns to use the toilet. However, as much as I dont think these are that impressive, for the child it is a huge achievement, so it really forces you to put yourself in a world and take huge imaginative leaps to empathy. But I am impressed when he will walk up to me or someone he cares about and asks if they are happy, or when he told me he was dying and I asked him what the means and he tells me 'it means you're all gone' or today we made cupcakes and he actually waited for our guest arrive before eating them, and not because I made him, but because he wanted to. And he always says thank you. These things probably seem like mundane little mutterings to anyone else, but to me I see something different. And I think its the same for every parent, because no matter what, they see the child like no one else does, they see ever layer, every moment, every stage of development all echoing through the being who exists because of them.

But they will drive you mad. And you will be tired. And you will never sleep or listen the same way again.

astra2000

Hi again op well in answer to the question how boring does it get I wont lie I am glad the days of repetive epsiodes of barney are past how ever I am guilty of looking back at those days with nostilga not sure I will ever look back at Hannah Montanna with nostilga though! A lot of the mundane tasks are done on auto pilot you always have something on your mind. The singing same songs over and over is at times mind numbing but when it makes them smile or distracts them your glad youve done it. I would not have been able to understand it before I had kids either I dont know if anyone would tbh. I must be honest and say that now I dont have toddlers any more there are times when I find myself looking at my young nieces and nephews like they have ten heads!!! I agree that the worrying about them will never stop but I think once your sensible and dont let it become all consuming you get used to it. I suppose if you look at your own immediate family/siblings you may well see that you tolerate things from them that you wouldnt from friends there is a deeper love there even if you would never have chosen them as friends.
Your young only recently enough married you dont sound like you are ready yet to make a desision either way so I would say put it on the long finger enjoy your marriage and come back to the issue in a year, sometimes nature just takes over I went almost over night from " we will have them in a few years" to " I want a baby". dont know why had no real experience of kids it just happened. If you decide you dont want any so be it I am sure you will have a happy life either way best of luck. Remember somethings just cant be properly explained dont drive yourself mad looking for one.

Cat Melodeon

It's not at all intellectually stimulating, but it's not boring. I find real pleasure in many aspects of being a parent, just as I do in being a wife or a dog-owner. I like the gardening analogy too - weeding is the most boring work there is but I like having a nice garden. You can also think of it like a sport, say a running a marathon or something. It might seem boring to some people to put one foot in front of another for 3 hours, but the runners certainly don't think so. Nappy-changing and constant laundry is not exciting, but it is only a small part of having a child. For me, I think the emotional rewards are the pay-off. And children can simply be very entertaining in a non-cerebral way. I would be completely bored if my kid was the only person I hung out with, but I still have my husband, my friends, my colleagues, my life. It's only boring if you let it be.

Big Bag of Chips

OP, in your first post, you said you are asking about the negatives because the positives aren't an issue for you.

Can I ask what YOU think are/would be the positives, because going by the tone of your posts, I would be inclined to advise you away from children. Children need love, attention, encouragement, discipline to become happy, rounded, "normal" human beings. You sound as if you'd almost be indifferent to them... that will almost certainly get you the sort of child you detest.. bratty, spoilt, etc!

By the way, I don't mean that as dig at you - but you mention all the possible negatives, but haven't mentioned one positive that YOU yourself can think of.

If it's not for you, then it's not for you - it doesn't make you any better or worse than anyone else. Anyone who has the will or inclination can get a phd, but some people just aren't interested or bothered.. that doesn't make them any better or worse than you!

As with everything in life... If you are interested, you will enjoy it. If you are not interested, well then you're just not interested!

LegacyUser

astra2000: That's the thing - I wouldn't be more inclined to forgive family than friends. It's one of the things that make me question if I'm suited to this.

Big Bag of Chips:I definitely would not be at all indifferent, although I know I come across as more 'scientific' than many about this. I can think of lots of positives - I actually do get along very well with children, discipline is something I'm good at (and I certainly wouldn't spoil), I know how affectionate children can be (and would be more than happy to return the affection), I would give time without hesitation (it's one thing I haven't complained about during the thread - it's just repetitive tasks and 500 x Baa Baa Black Sheep that don't appeal). I like the idea of having children and grandchildren around in my old age (although not for them to look after me).

That's another thing - I don't want anyone to feel that they have to care for me in my old age.

CathyMoran

My son is only 20 weeks old now so I may get bored yet...so far I have been totally fascinated with this little human being, from watching him sleep to reading the same book 100 times...I did not think that I would like it but I love it. You love them in a different way to your spouse but you do love them totally. Seeing my husband being a great daddy like my daddy has been just makes me love my husband more. Yes you have less time and holidays are a challenge but you get to help this little person grow.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be a parent - it is just something that for me I always wanted to do.

NamelessPhil

As a parent with a science background it is possible to see your kids as an ongoing science experiment. What they can't do this week they will be able to next. It's about pushing your boundaries and theirs.

You don't have to sing Baa Baa black sheep x 500, it can be whatever song comes to mind, ska, reggae, pop, AC/DC whatever. There's nothing funnier than watching a 6 month old rocking in time to Bob Marley. You can challenge yourself as well as them. If you have an inquiring mind then working out what makes a child tick can be very rewarding, as with any experiment if it's not working then change the variables.

As many other posters have mentioned, repetitive tasks are a fact of life. It just means you're doing it for someone else as well as yourself. If you can afford it or have lots of family support, parenting doesn't have to be full time. You can put the child in a creche/with a childminder/grandparent while you work or do stuff for yourself. This does not make you a selfish person, just realistic if full time parenting is not for you.

Communication with your partner is crucial. There is no point in wrapping yourself in the baby while the other half goes out to work or training with you feeling resentful. Make time for yourselves and each other. Everything should be up for discussion both before and after you have the child. Having a child is not done in isolation. I take my hat off to any single parent.

Like many other posters you would have to pay me danger money to do the first three months again. I didn't like it but got through it, The first six weeks were the longest but there is light at the end of the tunnel, the baby grows, it's not so dependent, it sleeps better and so do you.

This a lifetime relationship you are developing, and as a wise person once said "Children are like farts, you can just about stand your own!"

BTW, there is only one TV in the house, the child eats the same meals as us (baby led weaning FTW), it does not have to be a dictatorship.

Ickle Magoo

NamelessPhil wrote: »

...as a wise person once said "Children are like farts, you can just about stand your own!"

I'd never heard that one before - that's BRILLIANT! :pac::pac::pac::pac:

eviltwin

Part of the problem is that society makes us feel we have to want to have kids and that we are unnatural if we don't.

I didn't put any thought into having kids, I got pregnant when I was in my teens and found it really hard work and very unrewarding. It was constant worry but it wasn't the child that was the problem, it was me and my lack of faith in my own abilities as a parent. It was only when I got to leave my family home when my daughter was 5 and I was doing it for myself that the joy really came into it.

She's 13 now and she's got her moments, days when she's the biggest pain in the world but that's life. If you live with someone day in day out chances are somedays they are going to wind you up.

Overall though she is the most amazing thing in the world to me and looking at this young woman I've helped create is its own reward. I look back on the last 13 years and the most amazing moments are all to do with her, nothing else I thought was important really matters. I'm so excited to see what she becomes and what her mark on the world will be and its exciting to be a part of it. And I'm looking forward to doing it all over again with my youngest.

stovelid

Always find these posts a little strange, only in my opinion and not a barb, OP. What do people want to hear: that raising children is stress-free and a walk in the park? A Coca-Cola advert? Even before I had children, I knew that that would never be the case.

I think the experience of parenthood is utterly subjective and there is no way around that. And It's a perfectly valid and normal feeling not to want children in your life.

I liked (and like) children, always did, even before I had them, but the feelings I have for my own are totally different. Not to mention that they won't be children forever, as much as I enjoy that. You're going to know your children as adults - hopefully friends - too.

We couldn't be in a worse place as regards child-related stress, tiredness and hard work at the minute but it doesn't mean that I regret having them for a minute. The rewards are incredible even if I still often miss my old life. The other day summed it up for me as I had the house to myself for a few hours. I loved every single minute of it (and can't wait for the next time), but the house also felt somehow empty as well.

I think that for people who do want children: you are missing the intensely subjective element that reconciles the "misery" and joy of child-rearing.