Is it time for the government to make motor tax rates a little fairer??

changes

Hi

Would it be a good idea to put a bit of pressure on our potiticians to make the motor tax system a little fairer on the less well off in society.

They could raise the rates for the post 2008 car owners a little (as they will prob be richer anyway) and lower the motor tax rates a little for those of us still driving older cars.

Henry Ford III

No.

It's only just changed to a greener system with apparently no loss to the exchequer. Older car drivers were already paying the higher rates.

changes

Henry Ford III wrote: »

No.

It's only just changed to a greener system with apparently no loss to the exchequer. Older car drivers were already paying the higher rates.

Those rates were/are far too high imo

frank gooding

scrap road tax and vrt put 1 or 2 cents on fuel.
this should be very easy to calculate.

If you you use your car the gov gets tax.

If you use a lot or drive a gas guzzler then the gov gets tax.

No need for motor tax checks or discs or employees the gov saves money.

There is huge tax creamed off fuel already so no extra dmin costs.

Foreign registered cars don't matter any more as they pay the tax trhough fuel.

More new car sales as they will be much cheaper on the forecourt.

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

MetzgerMeister

frank gooding wrote: »

scrap road tax and vrt put 1 or 2 cents on fuel.
this should be very easy to calculate.

If you you use your car the gov gets tax.

If you use a lot or drive a gas guzzler then the gov gets tax.

No need for motor tax checks or discs or employees the gov saves money.

There is huge tax creamed off fuel already so no extra dmin costs.

Foreign registered cars don't matter any more as they pay the tax trhough fuel.

More new car sales as they will be much cheaper on the forecourt.

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

I too think is an excellent idea. Although!! The way the system is now, cars are sitting on the forecourts with tax. If your idea was in place now, those same cars would be sitting idle (maybe not since you pointed out they'd be cheaper) not making money for the government. Get me??

Breezer

What they should do is what I have said all along: allow drivers on the older system to switch to the new system if the CO2 data is available and it is economically advantageous for them to do so.

Example: I drive a Toyota Aygo first registered in September 2007. I pay €172 pa motor tax. Were I driving the same Toyota Aygo, but it had not been registered until January 2008, a whopping 5 months later, I would pay €104 pa motor tax. The same goes for many people driving pre-08 diesel cars.

I wrote to John Gormley at the time to point this out and he replied that if cars could be moved onto the new system, it wouldn't be fair on those people with CO2-spewing exhausts who hadn't decided to go greener because there was no associated financial incentive at the time. I wrote again, querying why (as I had said the first time), this couldn't be done solely for those who had thought a bit greener prior it hitting them in the pocket, allowing the gas guzzlers to continue on the same rates as before. I'm still waiting on a reply to that one.

Of course, the whole thing has nothing to do with environmentalism and a lot to do with money. A bit like the new flat-rate energy levy of €30 that is supposed to magically make us think more about the amount of electricity we use, even though using less will make no difference to this figure.

And yes, frank gooding's idea is the best one.

questionmark?

frank gooding wrote: »

scrap road tax and vrt put 1 or 2 cents on fuel.
this should be very easy to calculate.

If you you use your car the gov gets tax.

If you use a lot or drive a gas guzzler then the gov gets tax.

No need for motor tax checks or discs or employees the gov saves money.

There is huge tax creamed off fuel already so no extra dmin costs.

Foreign registered cars don't matter any more as they pay the tax trhough fuel.

More new car sales as they will be much cheaper on the forecourt.

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

I agree with all of the above.

The only problem is this country!

You would think this would be easy wouldn't ya. But if this government brought in the changes tomorrow it would be more like an extra 10cent a litre instead of 1 or 2 cent.

We would still have to pay for these staff as they would be kept on thus why such a large tax on petrol would be introduced.

R.O.R

frank gooding wrote: »

scrap road tax and vrt put 1 or 2 cents on fuel.
this should be very easy to calculate.

If you you use your car the gov gets tax.

If you use a lot or drive a gas guzzler then the gov gets tax.

No need for motor tax checks or discs or employees the gov saves money.

There is huge tax creamed off fuel already so no extra dmin costs.

Foreign registered cars don't matter any more as they pay the tax trhough fuel.

More new car sales as they will be much cheaper on the forecourt.

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

There would be no forecourts left for new cars to be sold from, as the huge depreciation that would happen to dealers current stocks when VRT was removed, would kill off those that have weathered the July 2008 storm.

Breezer

questionmark? wrote: »

We would still have to pay for these staff as they would be kept on thus why such a large tax on petrol would be introduced.

I'd like to rephrase. Frank gooding's idea is the best one, bar this problem. And this problem would only arise after months of protests, inconvenience to the public, and negotiations.

ahal

changes wrote: »

Hi

Would it be a good idea to put a bit of pressure on our potiticians to make the motor tax system a little fairer on the less well off in society.

They could raise the rates for the post 2008 car owners a little (as they will prob be better richer anyway) and lower the motor tax rates a little for those of us still driving older cars.

Short answer "yes"

Like most things that involve being fair / logic, it's unlikely to happen though, unless we get a bit militant. I don't mean kneecappings but rather the 'Axe tax' style protests of the 1980's. We need to rediscover that thing called anger in this country.

I'm not sure about using the money from post '08 motorists ... as things stand pre - '08 drivers are subsidizing them as it is. I put it to a senior Green party man that the fairest way of implementing carbon tax would be to do it at source - the NCT - regardless of age.

He told me that the NCT doesn't test for Co2 emissions, which left me somewhat confused and indeed gobsmacked. I mean wtf? I thought that was a cornerstone of the bloody thing!

There are so many strands to the current mess it's hard to know where to begin. Bill Cullen went on telly recently to blast the Greens for ruining the secondhand car market. Only problem is, the trade has been lobbying for years in order to all but eliminate the used car market. Can't have it the both ways.

Regards,

Tony.

E39MSport

Tax the fuel.

I'm sick of paying thousands every year for road tax when I cover less than 5k miles pa.

The focker in the so called eco car paying 125 Eur and covering huge miles is the winner.

Alun

ahal wrote: »

He told me that the NCT doesn't test for Co2 emissions, which left me somewhat confused and indeed gobsmacked. I mean wtf? I thought that was a cornerstone of the bloody thing!

They test for CO, not CO2.

changes

I'm glad to hear that people are contacting the politicians about this. I emailed john gormley ages ago about it also. If thousands of people got on to them it may have an impact.

I would love to see the motor tax abolished and put onto fuel. I'm looking at getting a car soon (can't afford 2008 or newer) and if i don't want to pay €450 to €600 a year in motor tax i need to forget about diesel cars and am left with a 1.4 or lower engine size. Its very frustrating.

flutered

the greens + tax = fair ? not likely me thinks. as to the op on about co tax of course the rich get richer, since when has the poor being catered for.

Eric Cartman

adding a few cents to fuel is fine for the low mileage user, and while i can understand peoples concerns about road tax etc... the only fair way would be to raise the VAT rate on fuel , this way the commercial sector wouldnt have to feel the pinch for vehicles that are essential to be high mileage. I know that adding 5 cent more to a litre of diesel would be far worse than paying 288 euro a year in tax for commercial van/4x4 drivers, by only changing the VAT rate on fuel it does not impact business, only consumers

Del2005

Eric Cartman wrote: »

adding a few cents to fuel is fine for the low mileage user, and while i can understand peoples concerns about road tax etc... the only fair way would be to raise the VAT rate on fuel , this way the commercial sector wouldnt have to feel the pinch for vehicles that are essential to be high mileage. I know that adding 5 cent more to a litre of diesel would be far worse than paying 288 euro a year in tax for commercial van/4x4 drivers, by only changing the VAT rate on fuel it does not impact business, only consumers

It's what the government are saying that the polluter pays, if you do huge mileage you are creating more pollution and should pay more.

It might encourage some "businesses" to go for a smaller carvan/van rather then the big SUV they currently have. It's a perfectly fair method and if businesses have valid usage for the fuel used they could reclaim it some other way.

Seth Brundle

With the green shower in power, the only change to motor tax rates will be an upward one!

Owen

I've 2 cars. One's got the 320d engine which is clean, loves trees, and makes magical fairys pop out of it's arse wherever it goes. Because it's a 02, I pay 600+ a year for tax, yet someone with an 08 version of my engine pays 156 a year. I'd happily pay 3/400. The other car does about 1500 miles a year. Sometimes less. And I still end up paying 430 odd a year for that. Pain in the arse.

I'd much rather we keep the VRT as is, but make motor tax an additional charge at the pumps.

ahal

Alun wrote: »

They test for CO, not CO2.

Well spotted

*yawn*

Typo.

af_thefragile

frank gooding wrote: »

scrap road tax and vrt put 1 or 2 cents on fuel.
this should be very easy to calculate.

If you you use your car the gov gets tax.

If you use a lot or drive a gas guzzler then the gov gets tax.

No need for motor tax checks or discs or employees the gov saves money.

There is huge tax creamed off fuel already so no extra dmin costs.

Foreign registered cars don't matter any more as they pay the tax trhough fuel.

More new car sales as they will be much cheaper on the forecourt.

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

2 Issues.
Firstly the government isn't going to just add 1 to 2 cents. It'll probably add more like a wollop of 10c or 20c if its to implement this system.

Secondly this would work great for anyone who owns an old or new car with a big engine paying in excess of 500eur in tax. But the majority drive small hatchbacks or 1-1.4l engines and don't pay more than 300eur in tax. I don't think they'ld be too pleased with the new system.

And finally as kbannon pointed out, its not going to happen.

Unless people learn to get out in the streets and protest. And not the type of protest on O'Connell street where after a couple of hour the gards shoo you away but a proper protest people used to do back in the days. Which with Big Brother watching again isn't going to happen.

Vertakill

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I've 2 cars. One's got the 320d engine which is clean, loves trees, and makes magical fairys pop out of it's arse wherever it goes. Because it's a 02, I pay 600+ a year for tax, yet someone with an 08 version of my engine pays 156 a year. I'd happily pay 3/400. The other car does about 1500 miles a year. Sometimes less. And I still end up paying 430 odd a year for that. Pain in the arse.

I'd much rather we keep the VRT as is, but make motor tax an additional charge at the pumps.

Agreed. Peoples future car purchases should not be so majorly dictated by the motor tax system. The government may stand to make more money if they were taking in small amounts of money from fuel, rather than taking a lump sum from everyone which practically needs to be pried out of our hands.

We all begrudge handing over large amounts of money to our government for motor tax because we feel we're being shafted, so we all go out and buy a 2008, 2 litre, German diesel.
Cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It annoys me especially because it's a joke when I do about 5k miles p/yr max and pay 1500 for road tax, whereas there's people paying a fraction of my road tax but pumping out way more emissions than me in our so-called 'greener' motor tax system.

Anan1

ahal wrote: »

Well spotted

*yawn*

Typo.

You might want to tone down the attitude, it's quite clear from your first post that it wasn't a typo:

ahal wrote: »

I put it to a senior Green party man that the fairest way of implementing carbon tax would be to do it at source - the NCT - regardless of age.

He told me that the NCT doesn't test for Co2 emissions, which left me somewhat confused and indeed gobsmacked. I mean wtf? I thought that was a cornerstone of the bloody thing!

ahal

Anan1 wrote: »

You might want to tone down the attitude

Does this relate to the present or the last problem I had with you over a year ago? I consider thanking trivial correction low - level trolling. And the point of the thread again was? ....

Anan1 wrote: »

it's quite clear from your first post that it wasn't a typo:

So you're calling me a liar? Say it straight.

kbannon

kbannon wrote: »

With the green shower in power, the only change to motor tax rates will be an upward one!

They should stick a carbon tax on the Green Party, the amount of nonsense and crap they spout is unnecessarily adding to our CO2 emission levels

Anan1

ahal wrote: »

Does this relate to the present or the last problem I had with you over a year ago? I consider thanking trivial correction low - level trolling. And the point of the thread again was? ....



So you're calling me a liar? Say it straight.

Banned for a week for arguing about moderation on-thread.

bmw535d

frank gooding wrote: »

scrap road tax and vrt put 1 or 2 cents on fuel.
this should be very easy to calculate.

If you you use your car the gov gets tax.

If you use a lot or drive a gas guzzler then the gov gets tax.

No need for motor tax checks or discs or employees the gov saves money.

There is huge tax creamed off fuel already so no extra dmin costs.

Foreign registered cars don't matter any more as they pay the tax trhough fuel.

More new car sales as they will be much cheaper on the forecourt.

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

that would cost a haulage company an extra 22000 a year in fuel bills. where are they supposed to get that in this day and age?

Absurdum

kbannon wrote: »

With the green shower in power, the only change to motor tax rates will be an upward one!

has any party ever pledged to actually reduce motor tax rates?

didn't think so


I'm no fan of the Greens nor the current rates, but the CO2 system is fairer than the old cc system.

frank gooding

Motorist is a cash cow with no lobby.

Lets face they won't even have the courtesy to buy you a drink before you get screwed.

So we just accept it and assume the position.

Pay your tax and think of Ireland.

As for hauliers on diesel stick on vat or just stick it on petrol.

Saab Ed

frank gooding wrote: »

Those of us doing small private mileage can take the hit on the fuel and buy some real nice big barges.

Someone explain the flaw in my logic....

We'll run out of barges

Atlantic Dawn

What's happened with car sales in this country is the same as what happened with the houses, we relied on a system of sales and transfers of vehicles too long and not taxed the actual use of the vehicles in the same way that a property tax would help the tax now missing from little or no homesales. Polluter pays is the way to go, a car doesn't pollute until it's driven from A to B.

Atlantic Dawn

frank gooding wrote: »

Pay your tax and think of Ireland. Anglo.

Fixed that for ya

shedweller

af_thefragile wrote: »

2 Issues.
Firstly the government isn't going to just add 1 to 2 cents. It'll probably add more like a wollop of 10c or 20c if its to implement this system.

But take for example an average of 20,000km per year. Now take an average of 5L/100k. It works out at 1000 litres of diesel. Thats 1230 euro.
Now add 0.10 to each of those 1000 litres.

Thats 100 euro. Extra. Instead of road tax.

Not a bad deal at all really!

af_thefragile

shedweller wrote: »

But take for example an average of 20,000km per year. Now take an average of 5L/100k. It works out at 1000 litres of diesel. Thats 1230 euro.
Now add 0.10 to each of those 1000 litres.

Thats 100 euro. Extra. Instead of road tax.

Not a bad deal at all really!

Hmm... when you look at it that way its not bad at all...

I say we should all petition for this change!!




But considering this is Ireland and such a change would cause a significant drop in revenue, I really don't see it happening.

shedweller

True. But there must be a happy medium somewhere. What are the figures on the yearly tax take with respect to cars etc.?

jock101

Well with the Greens in Government and the Country's tax revenue choffers way down. I dont see it happening, more like it will increase!:(:mad:

shedweller

Thats where knowing what the figures are will help us find a reasonable amount to add to the fuel in lieu of motor tax. So if/when they say it will be revenue neutral we can agree or disagree with it. And numbers can't be argued with. Well, unless they are fabricated.......

Ali Babba

I wouldn't really be worrying about it, at the rate this country is really heading it will be the least of your worries, i'll send some aid and canned food to ye all in due course.;)

Seth Brundle

Absurdum wrote: »

has any party ever pledged to actually reduce motor tax rates?

didn't think so

I never said that they did. However, the greens are the ones keen on pushing up motor taxes!

Absurdum wrote: »

I'm no fan of the Greens nor the current rates, but the CO2 system is fairer than the old cc system.

How exactly is it fairer? It is fairer to those who buy small engined cars (preferably diesel) - it considers CO but not the other issues associated with diesel, etc.

Surely it makes more sense from a green perspective to ensure that people do minimum mileage in their car - alongside using an older car (rather than adding the carbon footprint of making a new car)? By this logic someone who maintains an older car should be rewarded (however, people who bought cars before the cahnge by and large lose out (especially those who bought "green" cars).

It still is a tax on ownership and requires owners to pay regardless of the actual mileage (which is more damaging - a small diesel engine that does 30,000 miles per year or a 3L petrol that does 10,000 miles in the same period)?

shedweller

kbannon wrote: »

Surely it makes more sense from a green perspective to ensure that people do minimum mileage in their car - alongside using an older car (rather than adding the carbon footprint of making a new car)? By this logic someone who maintains an older car should be rewarded (however, people who bought cars before the cahnge by and large lose out (especially those who bought "green" cars).

It still is a tax on ownership and requires owners to pay regardless of the actual mileage (which is more damaging - a small diesel engine that does 30,000 miles per year or a 3L petrol that does 10,000 miles in the same period)?

+1

The whole CO2 debacle is a bit of a farce. As others have pointed out, a pre '08 car and post '08 car of the same type have very different tax discs. Yet they both churn out the same (if driven the same) pollutants. So instead of a simple "pay as you go" system we have this absurd two tier system that has ruined the value of pre '08 cars and now the owners of those cars are far more likely to hold onto them until they are to be scrapped.
I made a point before about CO2 emissions being directly proportional to the fuel used, regardless of car type, engine size etc. This is scientific fact but it appears to be a fact the greens either don't get or choose to ignore. I'd go with the latter. They're not that stupid.

In any case, Ali Babba, you are bang on. I'll take a few cans of ambrosia if you don't mind!:D

Senna

There was a thread on this ages ago, they worked out that by adding 3c to every litre of fuel would compensate for VRT, but it needed 15c extra on every litre to make up the gov revenue for road tax.
If those figures are correct, i cant see road tax ever being added to fuel.

Anan1

shedweller wrote: »

But take for example an average of 20,000km per year. Now take an average of 5L/100k. It works out at 1000 litres of diesel. Thats 1230 euro.
Now add 0.10 to each of those 1000 litres.

Thats 100 euro. Extra. Instead of road tax.

Not a bad deal at all really!

And how does the State make good on the resultant revenue shortfall?

shedweller

I was using a number given by another poster as an example. But if more was added to it, it would be more "revenue neutral"
Of course, there is always a risk of too much being added to it.
Aside from the potential for abuse, i think this system has a lot going for it. It needs little or no extra work or expensive systems in place to operate it. It's operating fine as it is. Just change the numbers a little.

Anan1

shedweller wrote: »

I was using a number given by another poster as an example. But if more was added to it, it would be more "revenue neutral"
Of course, there is always a risk of too much being added to it.
Aside from the potential for abuse, i think this system has a lot going for it. It needs little or no extra work or expensive systems in place to operate it. It's operating fine as it is. Just change the numbers a little.

I'm in favour in principle, but we'd really need similar pricing in the North to avoid large numbers of people just crossing the border for their fuel.

VinnyTGM

Gormley, I'd like to say a fair play it must not be easy ripping 4 million people off consistently.

Now we all know this tax system is just for money making, so stop with this bullsh1t in saying its for the enviroment, no one believes it.

If every single person in Ireland were to stop using cars, it wouldn't make a smidge of a difference to the world, we're a poxy 4 million people in a world of billions, our nearest neighbour has 60 million, and yet were trying to save the enviroment :pac::pac::pac: , it would be like cutting the lawn with a nail clippers.


Ahh, I'd love if he got killed by getting run over by a big V8 or something, how ironic.

Anan1

VinnyTGM wrote: »

If every single person in Ireland were to stop using cars, it wouldn't make a smidge of a difference to the world, we're a poxy 4 million people in a world of billions, our nearest neighbour has 60 million, and yet were trying to save the enviroment :pac::pac::pac: , it would be like cutting the lawn with a nail clippers.

That argument might make some sense if we were the only country taxing CO2 emissions.

Voodoomelon

I wonder what the average amount that each road user would have to pay if motor tax was abolished and a fuel tax introduced? (based on 20k kilometers per year). €300? €500?

Hell, i'd be happy if it was €1000. The current system is a farce.

Absurdum

kbannon wrote: »

How exactly is it fairer? It is fairer to those who buy small engined cars (preferably diesel) - it considers CO but not the other issues associated with diesel, etc.

Surely it makes more sense from a green perspective to ensure that people do minimum mileage in their car - alongside using an older car (rather than adding the carbon footprint of making a new car)? By this logic someone who maintains an older car should be rewarded (however, people who bought cars before the cahnge by and large lose out (especially those who bought "green" cars).

I said it was fairer not fairest. It didn't force anyone to buy a new car because the old system was left in place for pre 08 cars.

It still is a tax on ownership and requires owners to pay regardless of the actual mileage (which is more damaging - a small diesel engine that does 30,000 miles per year or a 3L petrol that does 10,000 miles in the same period)?

It doesn't matter which is more damaging. If and when it becomes politically and economically favourable to move away from ownership taxes, then it will happen.

Seth Brundle

Absurdum wrote: »

I said it was fairer not fairest. It didn't force anyone to buy a new car because the old system was left in place for pre 08 cars.

You haven't answered my question. How is it fairer than the old system?

shedweller

I'm guessing it's for those that were going to buy a new car anyway. Now it's cheaper to tax them. But as i've said earlier, for the most part it's not cheaper to run them. There are too many people driving pre '08 cars doing just as well at the pump. A workmate of mine drives a '98 passat and does 5L/100k on average, for example.

inforfun

Would you believe i actually think driving a car here is cheap....

Where I am from i would pay 50% more for my motortax on my current car.
Add to that €1.55 for a liter of fuel.

caesar

Anan1 wrote: »

I'm in favour in principle, but we'd really need similar pricing in the North to avoid large numbers of people just crossing the border for their fuel.

Thank you, I was reading this thread and wondering why this point hadn't been made. I’m all for tax on fuel and some kind of a rebate system for businesses with justifiable high mileage but there are two problems.

1. The North, people crossing the border and with that the potentially increase in fuel smuggling into the south.

2. The revenue shortfall. I'd imagine in spite of the savings on admin and policing etc that they would need to add a lot more than 1-2 cent as pointed out. If 10 to 20 cent is added, problem 1 gets worse.

How would they get around this? Seriously can anyone think of a way?

It's a ****ty situation where you have cars going off the road because people can’t stomach paying the tax as its more than the cars value.